Greg2600
join:2008-05-20
Belleville, NJ
| reply to nascar
Re: Epix
skottey, again I think something will have to give, in terms of Showtime. How can they continue to exist without movies to show? Well, I guess they could just do what Starz does, and show the same 5 movies 24/7. No fault of FIOS, but the movie package stinks, and its the studio/network fault. There are thousands of movies from the 60's through the 90's, but very few of them ever get airtime on the movie package channels. I can only assume its the studios not wanting to pay out residuals. |
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JPL
Premium
join:2007-04-04
West Chester, PA
 ·Verizon FIOS
| reply to wmcbrine
said by wmcbrine  :To everyone referring to "the $30 movie package" -- you realize it's already gone up to $35, right? Or at least it will when your contract ends. Hopefully that covers the cost of Epix, but I don't know. Yes, it's now $35, but no, his price won't (shouldn't?) increase when his contract expires. I have their movie pack and I'm still paying $13/month, even though it's now, IIRC, $14 - $15/month. They tend to grandfather you into these prices. |
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nascar
join:2000-02-28
Verona, NJ
·Verizon FIOS
 ·Comcast
| reply to nascar
Not sure if this will apply in October but this is what has been said...
»arstechnica.com/media/news/2009/···epix.ars
"That doesn't sound so new, but Epix will be bundled directly into cable packages; under the current business model, it will never appear as a separate charge on the bill and will never have to be added to a package. If Epix can convince enough cable operators to sign on (it isn't yet announcing partners), the service will have an immediate competitive advantage over pay-TV channels with an additional monthly fee."
»www.usatoday.com/money/media/200···el_N.htm
"Greenberg wants operators to include Epix in their packages of digital, movie or HD channels — it wouldn't appear as a separate charge on customers' bills the way premium services usually do. He'll sweeten the deal by making the channel's movies and shows available to their video-on-demand services." |
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Greg2600
join:2008-05-20
Belleville, NJ | reply to nascar
Ah well that sounds much better. Thanks for all your research nascar. |
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skottey_
join:2009-07-06
Saint Petersburg, FL
| reply to nascar
said by nascar :Not sure if this will apply in October but this is what has been said... » arstechnica.com/media/news/2009/···epix.ars"That doesn't sound so new, but Epix will be bundled directly into cable packages; under the current business model, it will never appear as a separate charge on the bill and will never have to be added to a package. If Epix can convince enough cable operators to sign on (it isn't yet announcing partners), the service will have an immediate competitive advantage over pay-TV channels with an additional monthly fee." » www.usatoday.com/money/media/200···el_N.htm"Greenberg wants operators to include Epix in their packages of digital, movie or HD channels — it wouldn't appear as a separate charge on customers' bills the way premium services usually do. He'll sweeten the deal by making the channel's movies and shows available to their video-on-demand services." Oh my gosh... it sounds even worse than previously discussed. This current business model idea is going to REQUIRE commercials. Cinema->DVD->PPV->premium channels->basic cable channels with commercials has been the traditional business model. Premium channels are by their very nature an extra charge, whether bundled together or a la carte. If they end up in a basic, non movie package, they will need to be ad supported. What channels do we get without an extra fee of some sort that don't have ads? Flix and Encore. Those two channels play movies after the big players have aired them. Encore, owned by Starz, airs the movies AFTER they have been run on Starz.
Something does need to give, as stated.
I do not watch edited, commercial laced movies. That would be a shame if what once ran on Showtime commercial free for a fee is no included in a basic package, WITH COMMERCIALS!
I just get a negative vibe about Epix. But we shall see. |
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Reaper_WA
join:2008-12-15
Lynnwood, WA | Skottey: So now that it seems pretty clear that there won't be an extra cost to customers for Epix, you swing to the extreme of the channel interupting movies with adds. This is pure speculation on your part. |
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wmcbrine
Touched by His Noodly Appendage
join:2002-12-30
Laurel, MD
1 edit | reply to skottey_
said by skottey_ :This current business model idea is going to REQUIRE commercials. Nonsense. I'm old enough to remember when lots of "basic cable" channels were ad-free, and there are still a few of those. Ads crept in over time because the providers could get away with it, not necessarily because they needed the revenue to keep operating.
Suppose, for the sake of argument, that HBO gets $10 per customer, and that 1/10th* of cable subscribers pick it up. Now suppose that Epix charges only $1 -- but gets that from every cable subscriber, because it's in the basic package. Their costs don't increase as the number of subscribers increases, so they make as much money as HBO. $1 is very low for a premium, high for "basic cable" -- but still less than ESPN.
* Wikipedia suggests that it's actually more like 1/3rd. But anyway...
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09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 |
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chitchatjf
join:2008-07-13
Lawrence, MA | reply to nascar
Do not rule out the possibility of having it on Extreme HD. |
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JPL
Premium
join:2007-04-04
West Chester, PA
·Verizon FIOS
| reply to wmcbrine
said by wmcbrine :said by skottey_ :This current business model idea is going to REQUIRE commercials. Nonsense. I'm old enough to remember when lots of "basic cable" channels were ad-free, and there are still a few of those. Ads crept in over time because the providers could get away with it, not necessarily because they needed the revenue to keep operating. Suppose, for the sake of argument, that HBO gets $10 per customer, and that 1/10th* of cable subscribers pick it up. Now suppose that Epix charges only $1 -- but gets that from every cable subscriber, because it's in the basic package. Their costs don't increase as the number of subscribers increases, so they make as much money as HBO. $1 is very low for a premium, high for "basic cable" -- but still less than ESPN. * Wikipedia suggests that it's actually more like 1/3rd. But anyway... Absolutely - look we don't know the terms of the deal, but to believe that every channel that's included in a basic tier HAS to have commercials is wrong. Look at HDNet Movies, for crying out loud. It's included in the base package, and provides movies uncut and uninterrupted. |
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skottey_
join:2009-07-06
Saint Petersburg, FL
| reply to Reaper_WA
said by Reaper_WA :Skottey: So now that it seems pretty clear that there won't be an extra cost to customers for Epix, you swing to the extreme of the channel interupting movies with adds. This is pure speculation on your part. Please just go Google the history of how Epix came to be and where the movies are coming from. What I am saying is that if they are another premium channel, which they said they were, that they will either be in the movie package or a stand alone fee as a premium channel. Anything less, like being part of the HD Extreme, will mean the channel will have to be ad supported. The reason I say this is because they are running first run movies in the premium channel chain of things. It costs more to own HBO and put a movie on in that phase than it does when it trickles down to being on Spike with commercials. I am saying, how can they fit in a category with HDNET and MGM who don't have commercials but are included in a lesser than premium package? The cost doesn't make sense. They are taking all that money off the table they used to get from Showtime and giving those movies to us on a FREE commercial free channel out of the kindness of their heart? There must be a catch. Either it is stand alone premium, part of the $30 (or $35 in your market) movie package, or part of HD Extreme but ad supported.
The best we could cope for is it being in the movie package WITHOUT them charging more. Because we are getting nothing new. Just the same content shifted over from Showtime. |
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skottey_
join:2009-07-06
Saint Petersburg, FL
| reply to wmcbrine
said by wmcbrine :said by skottey_ :This current business model idea is going to REQUIRE commercials. Nonsense. I'm old enough to remember when lots of "basic cable" channels were ad-free, and there are still a few of those. Ads crept in over time because the providers could get away with it, not necessarily because they needed the revenue to keep operating. Suppose, for the sake of argument, that HBO gets $10 per customer, and that 1/10th* of cable subscribers pick it up. Now suppose that Epix charges only $1 -- but gets that from every cable subscriber, because it's in the basic package. Their costs don't increase as the number of subscribers increases, so they make as much money as HBO. $1 is very low for a premium, high for "basic cable" -- but still less than ESPN. * Wikipedia suggests that it's actually more like 1/3rd. But anyway... The problem is that only Verizon has picked it up so far. My biggest beef with this is that all they did is not renew distribution deals with Showtime and form their own channel. This sounds good on the face but keep in mind there is an established chain of distribution through Showtime with multichannels, some of which that are in HD. |
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skottey_
join:2009-07-06
Saint Petersburg, FL
| reply to JPL
said by JPL :Absolutely - look we don't know the terms of the deal, but to believe that every channel that's included in a basic tier HAS to have commercials is wrong. Look at HDNet Movies, for crying out loud. It's included in the base package, and provides movies uncut and uninterrupted. HDNet does NOT have distribution for first run of movies between PPV and basic cable. They are the basic cable equivalent. They air movies that have previously premiered on cable on HBO/SHO/Starz after leaving PPV. That is a huge difference. It costs a lot more to be the early distributor. While I appreciate HDNET, I cannot see how Epix could show first run movies AND be in the HD Extreme package, without commercials.
Somebody said that cable companies started slipping ads in because they could, not because they had to. Well sure they had to. There are hundreds of channels nobody watches. This programming needs to be paid for somehow. Don't you think AMC heard an uproar when they went ad supported? They made a statement that they had to in order to buy newer, fresher movies, and that was the trade off.
There is always a trade off. Somebody, somehow, will put the same amount or more in the pockets of the owners of Epix than they were getting from distributing to Showtime. This could come in the form of another channel in our $30/$35 movie package, a stand alone premium, or gasp, ad supported on the HD Extreme level. |
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JPL
Premium
join:2007-04-04
West Chester, PA
·Verizon FIOS
1 edit | said by skottey_ :said by JPL :Absolutely - look we don't know the terms of the deal, but to believe that every channel that's included in a basic tier HAS to have commercials is wrong. Look at HDNet Movies, for crying out loud. It's included in the base package, and provides movies uncut and uninterrupted. HDNet does NOT have distribution for first run of movies between PPV and basic cable. They are the basic cable equivalent. They air movies that have previously premiered on cable on HBO/SHO/Starz after leaving PPV. That's not totally true. They just aired Answer Man - before it got to the theaters. They did the same with Surveillance... Finding Amanda... Flawless... and a number of other movies. All were shown on demand at the same time - for a nominal fee. But all were aired for free on HD Net Movies, uncut and uninterrupted.
Edit - One other point with this. Epix is a creation of these studios. That can't be said of channels like Showtime, which has to license the movies they show from the studios. When the studio becomes the distribution channel for the movie, they don't have to license anything. |
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chitchatjf
join:2008-07-13
Lawrence, MA
| reply to nascar
EVEN HDNet Movies has started airing commericals I saw one ofr six flags earlier this week -although in BETWEEN features.
Although many of those "show films before they hit theatres" films are pretty good.
a)They all come from JUST Magnolia,a studio Mark Cuban OWNS!
b)Theatrical release is quite limited generally restricted to Landmark theatres |
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JPL
Premium
join:2007-04-04
West Chester, PA
·Verizon FIOS
| said by chitchatjf :EVEN HDNet Movies has started airing commericals I saw one ofr six flags earlier this week -although in BETWEEN features. Although many of those "show films before they hit theatres" films are pretty good. a)They all come from JUST Magnolia,a studio Mark Cuban OWNS! b)Theatrical release is quite limited generally restricted to Landmark theatres Correct - the movies that they air prior to hitting the theaters are from Magnolia, which is partly owned by Cuban. But doesn't that further support my point? Cuban is part owner of the film company, and is the owner of the distribution company. And he airs his movies for free prior to distribution to the theaters.
Epix is a creation of various studios. Isn't this an analogous situation? The studios create the movies... and now they're creating a direct-to-cable distribution arm. I'm not saying that they'll air movies prior to theatrical release, but if HD Net is a model, then it stands to reason to believe that Epix will show these movies uncut and uninterrupted.
As for ads BETWEEN showings... those I could care less about. Really the issue is - will they interrupt movies that they're showing? That's what I think the issue is.
Point is - we don't know the terms of the deal. We don't know much about what the channel will be airing, or how. But to get some inkling it's more valid, in my opinion, to look at HD Net over, say, AMC. |
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Greg2600
join:2008-05-20
Belleville, NJ
| reply to nascar
JPL you make excellent points. Since EPIX owns the movies, they cut out that distribution fee. But as skottey says, at some point, their business model will have to change. They'll have to expand the number of channels, and I suppose take more from Showtime.
I'm very interested in what they offer on demand. Perhaps it will be a service similar to the wealth of movies on Movieplex VOD. It's great news though that Verizon is adding the channel at no extra cost (for now!). |
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Reaper_WA
join:2008-12-15
Lynnwood, WA
·Verizon FIOS
| reply to skottey_
said by skottey_ :Please just go Google the history of how Epix came to be and where the movies are coming from. What I am saying is that if they are another premium channel, which they said they were, that they will either be in the movie package or a stand alone fee as a premium channel. Anything less, like being part of the HD Extreme, will mean the channel will have to be ad supported. The reason I say this is because they are running first run movies in the premium channel chain of things. It costs more to own HBO and put a movie on in that phase than it does when it trickles down to being on Spike with commercials. I am saying, how can they fit in a category with HDNET and MGM who don't have commercials but are included in a lesser than premium package? The cost doesn't make sense. They are taking all that money off the table they used to get from Showtime and giving those movies to us on a FREE commercial free channel out of the kindness of their heart? There must be a catch. Either it is stand alone premium, part of the $30 (or $35 in your market) movie package, or part of HD Extreme but ad supported. The best we could cope for is it being in the movie package WITHOUT them charging more. Because we are getting nothing new. Just the same content shifted over from Showtime. Skottey: I have followed the developments of Epix from the beginning so kindly stop assuming that I do not know the situation.
It has been reported that Showtime wanted to give these studios less money for their movies so that they could spend more on original series, so the studios decided to start their own premium movie channel. When that was greeted with cool response by carriers, the group changed their strategy and pricing model so that carriers would have the flexibility to offer the channel with their premium movie offerings OR in a lower tier package. (Like wmcbrine, I read that their new price point would be comparable to ESPN’s rather than HBO’s.)
If Epix is successful, I would not be surprised to see them create multiplex channels over time. And Epix does not have to be successful right out of the gate; their business plan should contain provisions for initial losses and for not realizing a profit for a reasonable amount of time, perhaps five years. It is not as if this is a startup company, it’s only a startup venture. The combined studios have a LOT of capital.
As you and I have discussed previously on this forum, I believe that Showtime will find new sources of movies, even if they are all from independent studios.
I would not mind if Epix is ad supported, provided that they run the commercials in between movies only. I watch most movies via my DVR anyway. But as many others have pointed out, because the studios already own these movies, the cost of delivering the service will not be as high as the premium movie channels.
And we will be getting something new, all of the recent movies that they’ve been holding back from Showtime. I’ve also read that they intend to start running movies sooner after their theatrical release than any other premium movie channel. And perhaps they’ll run more of their back catalog than Showtime ever did.
It’s obvious that you want the status quo to remain unchanged, but sorry, that’s not going to happen. And I for one am excited by the new possibilities. |
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skottey_
join:2009-07-06
Saint Petersburg, FL | "It’s obvious that you want the status quo to remain unchanged, but sorry, that’s not going to happen. And I for one am excited by the new possibilities."
WTF? |
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Reaper_WA
join:2008-12-15
Lynnwood, WA | reply to nascar
I think I was pretty clear Skottey. What are you confused by? |
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skottey_
join:2009-07-06
Saint Petersburg, FL
| said by Reaper_WA :I think I was pretty clear Skottey. What are you confused by? You are saying " want the status quo unchanged." It isn't about that at all. I'm just stating reality. If you are making $x by delivering your movies by Showtime, why would you deliver your movies by Epix and make a lesser amount of money? You are leaving money on the table doing this. You being the movie companies of course.
I don't understand why everyone is getting excited over Epix. It is yet another channel that will either need to be another premium channel, which they stated (either a higher cost of the movie package or a la carte pricing) for the same stuff you got previously when the films were on Showtime. Or, it is distributed as an ad based channel. Additionally, it is ONE channel, not multichannels.
This is the equivalent of having a paid membership to a wholesale club like Sams or Costco. Let's say you pay $50 a year to get in the door and buy everything like you do now. But the distributor of the food for Costco decides they are going to split off from Costco and open their own wholesale food store. Suddenly, you would have to pay two $50 annual fees for access to the food in one store and dry goods in the other. You are getting NOTHING new or NOTHING more. You are just paying more for the same thing. That is the exact same thing as we are seeing here with Epix. They will not make as much money distributing these films in this fashion and have to make up for it in another way... ads. And we are not talking ads before and after a movie. That is stupid. Nobody cares or watches ads before and after a movie. They make their money slicing and dicing movies and selling ads during movies.
Let's just see how it goes. I have a feeling I will sadly be saying, "I told you so." |
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