dogfish3
Premium
join:2004-09-17
Sophia, WV
clubs:
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| Turntable question.
Hello,
A while ago, someone gave me a Technics SL-D30 turntable with an Ortofon TM14 cartridge. The table plays pretty well to my ears, but inner tracks can get nasty. Another problem it has is approx 1 revolution before the track starts, I can hear the intro of the song. I don't know much about this sort of thing, but I am led to believe it is either a problem with the anti-skate stuff or I need a new cart/stylus (I hear an Audio Technica 3482 is a good match for this table). Any suggestions? Thanks!
P. S. Anti-skate and counterweight are both set at 1.25g.
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howie
Premium,MVM
join:2003-04-08
Little Falls, NJ
1 edit | The sound you hear before the music actually starts (called "pre-echo") is due to "print through" on the original master tape and is not a malfunction of your cartridge. I'm guessing your other issue may be due to a worn or damaged stylus or cantilever assembly. I'd either replace that stylus ASAP or get a new P-Mount cartridge, especially if the inner track issue happens with new records (or those in new condition). Continued playing with a worn or damaged stylus will damage them permanently (if they aren't aready).
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dogfish3
Premium
join:2004-09-17
Sophia, WV
clubs: | Thanks. I ordered the aforementioned Audio Technica cart and stylus last night.
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howie
Premium,MVM
join:2003-04-08
Little Falls, NJ
1 edit | Great!
I'm a vinyl fan as well and recently pulled my old Sony PS3750 Direct Drive manual TT (from '77) and Shure V15-IV cartridge ('78) out of retirement. One forgets just how good analog sounds with a decent TT and well cared for vinyl. 
said by dogfish3  :Thanks. I ordered the aforementioned Audio Technica cart and stylus last night. AT makes some great cartridges. I still have my AT15SS (1980 or so, pic I took above) with the Super Shibata stylus. I paid about $100 back then and vintage audio enthusiasts will pay $200 or more for it nowadays.
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royphil345
Premium
join:2004-12-10
Lakewood, OH
clubs:
4 edits | reply to dogfish3
Guess I'm too late but...
That table has excellent specs and is really worthy of a better cartridge. The Audio Technica 3482 is bottom of the line and uses a conical stylus. It won't track higher frequencies and detail well.
You're more likely to hear tracking distortion too, due to the conical stylus and the cartridge being designed to meet the T4P standard for P-mount cartridges. The T4P standard requires a P-mount cartridge to be designed to track at 1.25-1.5 grams because many T4P tables had no tonearm adjustments. The T4P standard was intended to make turntables more user-friendly and "plug and play" so the average Joe could get better sound without having to learn how to tweak the tonearm. Most standard (non-T4P) carts with a conical stylus would be designed to track at over 2 grams to reduce tracking distortion resulting from the conical stylus shape. Still, higher frequencies and detail would be much better with a cart having an elliptical stylus shape (or even more advanced shape).
If you wanted to go Audio Technica and desire something that tracks very cleanly, particularly in the inner grooves... Something like the .3 x .7 elliptical 92ECD or 311EP would have been a much better choice. There are also models priced a little lower with a larger .4 x .7 elliptical tip that would still far outperform the conical. The Ortofon OMP 10 P-mount would have been another good option, possibly a bit more neutral sounding than the Audio Technicas which probably track a little better but can sound a bit bright in some systems.
If there's any way you might still be able to call and change your order at least to anything with an elliptical stylus... I think it would be worth the trouble and you'd be much happier in the long run.
The "echo" you hear could have been print through on the master tape. This can also be caused by some record pressings where what was stamped on a groove can be heard a bit on the other side of the groove wall. Either way... it's the record, not your gear. Making sure your table is level is a very important first step towards getting the best possible sound out of it if you haven't done that yet.
Good luck and I hope you enjoy the Technics! Wish I could have caught your post a little sooner... |
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howie
Premium,MVM
join:2003-04-08
Little Falls, NJ
1 edit | Great info... My experience (70's-80's) has been with standard mount cartridges and not P-mount. I know the Shure V15-IV uses what they call a "hyper-elliptical" stylus. My replacement stylus is a VN45MR "MicroRidge" (above) and tracks perfectly at 1 gram.
Thanks, royphil345, I learn something new every day!
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royphil345
Premium
join:2004-12-10
Lakewood, OH
clubs:
1 edit | I'm jealous of your V15-IV. I love that cart! I tried the latest version of the V-15 before they stopped making them when I got back into vinyl and it was nothing like the older ones. I actually liked their less expensive M97xE better.
I've got an old Audio Technica AT-15XE that I think is the same cartridge body you have, but with a .2 x .7 nude elliptical stylus instead of the more expensive Shibata. Also a great sounding cart. Nice little collection you have there... You take a heck of a photo too! You must be a pro... |
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howie
Premium,MVM
join:2003-04-08
Little Falls, NJ
3 edits | Thanks... I bought this stuff back in the mid-late '70s and early '80s. Around 1983 or so, I got caught up in the "digital revolution" and bought my first CD player (a Technics front-loader). My analog stuff slowly got retired and I boxed up this stuff and put it in storage. Just last summer, after reading how popular vintage audio was, I unpacked my '70s equipment (the Sony TT, a Kenwood KR-9600 receiver and my Sony Elcaset EL-7 (remember the Elcaset?) tape deck. I was impressed at how good the old stuff sounded... no digital harshness and my old vinyl sounded as smooth as silk. I guess I had forgotten just how good analog can sound.
BTW, Thanks for the kind words about my pics. They were taken with an older Sony DSC-F707 digicam (not an SLR) in macro mode and I'll admit that the Zeiss lens on it does take a nice picture. I guess I'm an enthusiast but definitely not a pro. Here's another taken with the same camera of my old Olympus OM-1 SLR. I simply placed it on a green plastic placemat, set the Sony to macro mode, and the camera did all the rest. The one of my AT15SS cartridge in it's case is the only one I "Photoshopped". I added the sunburst effect in PSP X2. The rest are untouched (besides a crop and resize).
Yes, the AT15 series were sweet sounding cartridges and I believe that you are correct that the only difference in that series was the stylus type (SS=Super Shibata).
As for the Shure, I was lucky to buy a VN45MR stylus before Shure stopped making them. It has very few hours on it and I hope it will last a while. I've heard the Jico S.A.S replacements are quite good, though.
»www.lptunes.com/Jico-SAS-Shure-V···7448.htm
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royphil345
Premium
join:2004-12-10
Lakewood, OH
clubs:
2 edits | reply to dogfish3
Well... I would have guessed you were a pro photographer.
LOL... Would you believe my first CD player was a Technics single-disc front loader too?! The first CD I bought was a Blue Oyster Cult CD and I remember being a little disappointed that it didn't seem to sound quite as "natural" as vinyl.
My last turntable was a very similar Sony too (PS-X5). Awesome "sleeper" tables that perform very well. Mine developed problems, but I liked it so much I decided to stick with an "old school" direct-drive design and purchased a brand new Technics SL-1200MKII a couple years back which I'm still enjoying the heck out of.
Always nice talking to another fellow vinyl junkie! Keep 'em spinnin'! |
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howie
Premium,MVM
join:2003-04-08
Little Falls, NJ | I will....
If the Sony ever dies, the SL-1200 would be my first choice as a replacement. Nice talking to a fellow analog enthusiast too! |
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dogfish3
Premium
join:2004-09-17
Sophia, WV
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to dogfish3
Thanks for all the replies! I'm not sure if I can cancel the order now or not. Nice pics! I'm kind of new to vinyl (well, from the "making it sound great" standpoint). I have always been amazed by this stuff when I found an old 78RPM in the basement about 14 years ago (I was around 4). I irritated my parents until they tracked down a 78RPM player. 
Thanks again for all the replies. I'll let y'all know the needle stuff pans out.
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howie
Premium,MVM
join:2003-04-08
Little Falls, NJ
1 edit | Yes, please do let us know how you make out. 14 years ago (at age 41), I was probably listening to one of my Beatles CD's, just as I do today. I have about 200 LP's in good shape from the 70's-80's, but alas, all my '60's Beatles vinyl is scratched/damaged beyond repair. As kids, we used to tape a nickel on the ceramic cartridge headshell on the cheap "record players" of that era if a record skipped. LOL
It wasn't until the 70's, when I started working, that I was able to buy decent stuff... (one tends to take better care of stuff when one has to pay for it). 
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dogfish3
Premium
join:2004-09-17
Sophia, WV
clubs: | hehe
The AT needle has already shipped  . Oh well, I guess it'll be a good starting point.
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gallowsroad
join:2004-08-09
Tulsa, OK
| said by dogfish3 :hehe The AT needle has already shipped . Oh well, I guess it'll be a good starting point. Give it a shot, see how it sounds. I was in the audio biz for a while, and came to really like Grado cartridges, if you decide vinyl is something you want to run with.
»www.gradolabs.com/frameset_cart.htm
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drjim
Premium,MVM
join:2000-06-13
Torrance, CA
clubs:
| reply to dogfish3
Count me in as another "Vinyl Junkie". Even playing the LP's through my home theater system sounds really good. I just wish I had the room for something like a Pioneer SX-1980 and some good speakers.
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Steely
Dumped Comcast for FiOS
Premium
join:2000-10-15
Princeton Junction, NJ
1 edit | reply to dogfish3
said by dogfish3 :The table plays pretty well to my ears, but inner tracks can get nasty. I totally eliminated my "inner groove distortion" problem when, after several decades of use, I retired my trusty but worn vintage Pickering XVS 3000 cartridge and replaced it with the relatively inexpensive but highly regarded Shure M97xE (alluded to above by royphil345 ). The cure, I believe, was not with the replacement cartridge itself, but rather with the extreme care I took to very precisely align that new cartridge in my Dual 510's tonearm - something which may not be possible with a P-mount design.
After setting up my new Shure cart I came to the realization that my Pickering, which had been pre-installed in the headshell by the store from which I had originally purchased the Dual turntable, had NEVER been positioned 100% correctly...and therefore probably had never tracked correctly...even though the VTF and anti-skate had always set dead on target!
Lesson learned: Even slightly imperfect geometry of the tonearm-cartridge-stylus assembly can cause persistent and annoying inner-groove distortion. Quality cartridges are not exempt!
Edit: BTW, my revered (in some circles) vintage Pickering cart was an XSV 3000, not an XVS 3000 as incorrectly stated above. I'm surprised royphil345 or my other audio guru gallowsroad didn't pick up on that!
Sorry, howie , but I think of you much more as a computer and software guru than as an audio guru! No disrespect intended! |
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royphil345
Premium
join:2004-12-10
Lakewood, OH
clubs:
4 edits | reply to dogfish3
Hi Steely! I knew you wouldn't be able to resist the rare analog thread here... lol.
Yes... proper alignment can make all the difference. I was messing around awhile back trying to get mine perfect and was surprised I could actually hear the difference after some very small adjustments.
dogfish3 won't have to worry about that since the alignment of any plug-in P-mount cartridge should be correct. I wish I could recommend a Shure for him too. They used to have a M94 P-mount that was very decent, but they dropped it and now only offer the cheaper M92 which isn't the best cart in tracking or "open" sound.
It's really slim pickins' in the P-mount carts these days. Grado does make all their Prestige Series carts in a P-mount version. They can hum on some tables and in some systems though. I tried a Grado from the series and I wasn't that crazy about it. Tracking wasn't the best... detail wasn't the best... and it wasn't really "rich" sounding either (I tried the Red. I've been told the less expensive Black or Green might actually be a little "richer" and more "musical" sounding). There was a little hum too... very low-level and not as bad as some people experience. But, due to the lack of options in P-mount carts these days, a Grado Black or Green might actually be one of the better choices if you're lucky and don't have hum problems. I'm really not sure what I'd try myself... Just not 100% crazy about any of the currently available P-mount offerings.
Well... Good luck dogfish 3! Maybe the Audio Technica will sound good enough to keep you happy for awhile. That's my wish for you! If not... at least you didn't spend a fortune. An extra cart isn't a bad thing to have on hand if you feel like trying something else after awhile. I have a few of them... lol. Unfortunately, none of them P-mount or I'd be tempted to send you one. Definitely let us know how things work out...
Oh and... Nice to meet another vinyl junkie drjim!!! If I had a
Pioneer SX-1980 I'd make room for it!... lol. |
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howie
Premium,MVM
join:2003-04-08
Little Falls, NJ
4 edits | 
A Stack of Monster Receivers | 
My Kenwood KR-9600 | 
Pioneer SX-1980 |
said by royphil345 :If I had a Pioneer SX-1980 I'd make room for it!... lol. Me too... I'd place it on top of my Kenny... What's another 80 pounds or so.
[EDIT] A bit off topic, but for those too young to remember, here's an article about the "receiver wars" of the late 1970's where audio manufacturers tried to out-do each other in terms of power, size, and just sheer weight of their TOTL stereo receivers of the time. I want them all!
»www.stereomanuals.com/articles/index.htm
said by dogfish3 :hehe The AT needle has already shipped . Oh well, I guess it'll be a good starting point. It sure is... let us know how it sounds. |
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gallowsroad
join:2004-08-09
Tulsa, OK
| Receiver wars. Those were the days.
Of course, they often fudged the parameters of the measurements in order to gain a strategic advantage in those wars, but when the end result is so monstrously huge and beautifully lit up, who cares? Give me MOAR KNOBS!
A lot of my time in the business was with a shop that did repairs of everything, plus we sold used gear, so we had every one of those big Japanese receivers come through the door. Good times.
P mount was a convenience concept, also developed to make linear tracking tables possible. Their use on other tone arms isn't really appropriate, but I had good luck fitting a lot of tables, cheap and not, with the inexpensive Grados to give them a little life. Some people did have hum issues, but it was, IME, rare. Cartridges are simultaneously finicky and fun - a pain to install and set up, but you get to choose from a variety of flavors to suit your own ears.
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- John Lydon, last Sex Pistols show |
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dogfish3
Premium
join:2004-09-17
Sophia, WV
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to howie
The UPS man dropped by today with the AT I ordered.
I'm pleasantly surprised! For ~$25, it is a significant upgrade from what I had. Most of you probably won't like my choice of music, but attached are two songs ripped with the new needle. The first one is the first song on the album and the second is the last song on the album.
 Johnny Cash ···rain.mp3 4832236 bytes
First Song
Johnny Cash ···More.mp3 6209912 bytes
Last Song
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