digitalfutur
Sees More Than Shown
Premium
join:2000-07-15
BurlingtonON
 ·Cogeco Cable
| Show Us Your Papers He's at it again ! Fantino and his OPP are now going to enforce a law regarding kids under 16 out after midnight.
quote:
Police are now warning parents that they will be enforcing the Child and Family Services Act, which states that children 16 years old or under must be supervised by someone 18 years old or over, preferably a parent, when they are out between midnight and 6 a.m. Otherwise, police said, they will apprehend the child without a warrant.
When a child is apprehended, the parents will be contacted and be required to pick them up.
»www.thestar.com/news/ontario/article/660668
What a concept !
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 elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
join:2006-08-30
Toronto, ON
1 edit | Re: Show Us Your Papers This man is out of control.. he reminds me of the politics of a certain Italian dictator during the 2nd world war.
I think he just likes to see his name in print. | |
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Devanchya
Smile
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Ajax, ON
 ·Bell Sympatico
| Wow! what a concept...
Forcing Children under 16 years of age to be AT Home after midnight... and in SUMMER.
Geeze, can i use this law please. We had a house party down the road 2 days ago with the kids going everywhere... to bad some of them were obviously over 16.
I actually APPLAUD, and WELCOME this law's enforcement.
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| elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
join:2006-08-30
Toronto, ON
| Re: Show Us Your Papers Lets turn this around for a second...
Not knowing the age of anyone here.. hands up how many of you were snuggled safe in your beds at midnight in the middle of summer?
I sure has hell wasn't. Now I did sneak out more then my share of times, so it wasn't with the blessing of my folks.
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Devanchya
Smile
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Ajax, ON
·Bell Sympatico
| Re: Show Us Your Papers I was 90% of the time. When I wasn't, I was near, or my parents knew where I was.
For the 5% of the other time, I was doing something stupid and should have been at home.
You know how many 12 year olds, and 15 year olds are out around my neigborhood at night? Enough to make you wonder if it's 3am or 3pm...
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Elwood Blues
join:2006-08-30
Toronto, ON
2 edits | Re: Show Us Your Papers Obviously you were a good little kid.
At any given time during the summer, there would be group (but in SS-Obergruppenfuhrer Fantino terms a GANG) of kids hanging out, and boozing it up (OMG liquored up teenage boys lock up your daughters) or whatnot.
Were we shit disturbers, you bet, what teenager isn't? But at the same time, I was probably less then a quarter of a mile from home and less via the backyard route.
I would like SS-Obergruppenfuhrer Fantino to enforce the Safe Streets Act and get the bloody panhandlers off the street.
(I really need to take the time to proof read before hitting post now!)
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses. | |
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Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium
join:2005-03-12
| said by Devanchya  :Geeze, can i use this law please. We had a house party down the road 2 days ago with the kids going everywhere... to bad some of them were obviously over 16. Don't worry, SS-Obergruppenfuhrer Fantino will soon lobby for a new law where "under 16" becomes "everybody", and house parties will become illegal in case the party-goers might be conspiring a putsch to overthrow the regime. 
I just hope the SS-Obergruppenfuhrer's thugs don't taser or shoot those kids when they're on their way into "custody".
BTW, parties are allowed in a free society, but unreasonable noise late at night is not. This is another example of muddled values, because problems like that can be dealt with through existing laws, and I for one greatly value the privilege of living in a free society. Or at least it was, pre-Fantino.
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"A dog is like a child who never grows old ... always there to love and be loved" -- Aaron Katcher
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Thingamajig
Premium
join:2004-11-03
B.C.
| Re: Show Us Your Papers said by Wolfie00 :Don't worry, SS-Obergruppenfuhrer Fantino will soon lobby for a new law where "under 16" becomes "everybody", and house parties will become illegal in case the party-goers might be conspiring a putsch to overthrow the regime. I just hope the SS-Obergruppenfuhrer's thugs don't taser or shoot those kids when they're on their way into "custody". BTW, parties are allowed in a free society, but unreasonable noise late at night is not. This is another example of muddled values, because problems like that can be dealt with through existing laws, and I for one greatly value the privilege of living in a free society. Or at least it was, pre-Fantino. Didn't you just defeat your own argument? This isn't a new law.
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Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium
join:2005-03-12
| Re: Show Us Your Papers said by Thingamajig :said by Wolfie00 :Don't worry, SS-Obergruppenfuhrer Fantino will soon lobby for a new law where "under 16" becomes "everybody", and house parties will become illegal in case the party-goers might be conspiring a putsch to overthrow the regime. I just hope the SS-Obergruppenfuhrer's thugs don't taser or shoot those kids when they're on their way into "custody". BTW, parties are allowed in a free society, but unreasonable noise late at night is not. This is another example of muddled values, because problems like that can be dealt with through existing laws, and I for one greatly value the privilege of living in a free society. Or at least it was, pre-Fantino. Didn't you just defeat your own argument? This isn't a new law. Not stated very well, perhaps -- I thought it was clear that I was saying that this bad law, like other bad laws of the same ilk (racing and stunt driving) were enacted as unjustifiably pre-emptive laws of convenience in the existence of already adequate statutes, and serve merely to facilitate enforcement. That is a dangerous path to start down from a civil rights standpoint.
A key question that an appellate court could or should look at is this. What is the more serious social evil, that a juvenile offender potentially escapes conviction for lack of evidence, or that an innocent juvenile who committed no offense is treated as guilty? I think the answer, as embodied in our constitutional principles, is quite clear to anyone who gives it calm and reasonable consideration.
That said, the statute in question here is somewhat borderline as there are also issues of child welfare and protection being addressed (although that is sure as hell not what Fantino is concerned about). At best it's a borderline law that has some arguable benefit -- and so one of the issues here is that a law that most police officers would be better off ignoring in the vast majority of cases has suddenly captured the overzealous attention of SS-Obergruppenfuhrer Fantino. It's the combination of a borderline law ruthlessly enforced by a fanatic that is so dangerous.
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"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" -- a corollary of Murphy's Law
"A dog is like a child who never grows old ... always there to love and be loved" -- Aaron Katcher
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jeffster1970
Whatta Ya Think About Dat?
Premium
join:2004-04-01
Kitchener, ON
clubs: 
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·Bell Sympatico
| said by Devanchya :Wow! what a concept... Forcing Children under 16 years of age to be AT Home after midnight... and in SUMMER. Geeze, can i use this law please. We had a house party down the road 2 days ago with the kids going everywhere... to bad some of them were obviously over 16. I actually APPLAUD, and WELCOME this law's enforcement. I for sure see you point, however, it got me thinking of when I was 16 years old and being out fairly late with my buddies - usually at Christmas time, spring (winter) break and, of course summer. We would be out late, maybe not till 2 or 3 am, but it was for sure beyond 12 midnight. And I wasn't one of those shyte disturbers either. The rents always knew where I was, so I had that 'trust'.
I think the law is a little crazy though...
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BryceS
join:2007-09-17
Waterloo, ON
| Throughout highschool in the summers I would end up at home anywhere from 10pm to 6am to not even coming home that night.
If my parents wanted to know where I was they could just call me.
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Mark Z
Premium
join:2002-10-14 | I'm sure McDalton was flapping his flippers wholeheartedly. Gawd I despise them both viscerally. | |
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Snickerdo
Premium
join:2001-02-28
Niagara Falls, ON
1 edit | Thank goodness the OPP aren't allowed to be anything more than glorified traffic nazis throughout the civilized parts of Ontario. | |
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51019512
join:2009-05-19
151 Front St
| Re: Show Us Your Papers said by Snickerdo :Thank goodness the OPP aren't allowed to be anything more than glorified traffic nazis throughout the civilized parts of Ontario. OPP can enforce the laws anyplace in Ontario. They could be downtown Toronto and arrest you.
It's a old myth that the OPP can't do anything within the limits of a city that has there own force. | |
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Snickerdo
Premium
join:2001-02-28
Niagara Falls, ON
| Re: Show Us Your Papers said by 51019512 :OPP can enforce the laws anyplace in Ontario. They could be downtown Toronto and arrest you. It's a old myth that the OPP can't do anything within the limits of a city that has there own force. Just like a Niagara Regional Police constable can enforce laws within the City of Toronto. A police officer is a police officer anywhere in Ontario. That much is obvious. The point I was trying to make is that in areas where there are local cops, the OPP don't have the staff or resources to do general policing, and stick to their official tasks as part of the Highway Safety Division. Not only that, but the locals get REAL REAL pissed off when the OPP start doing "their job" on "their turf."
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nitzguy
Premium
join:2002-07-11
Sudbury, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| I can't see "Greater Sudbury Police" enforcing this...sheesh they're the laziest police force in Ontario  .
I'd say the same thing, but you know, we did stupid things...like running around and crap, we didn't break into cars or do drugs or anything like that, I guess we were naieve...my parents always knew where I was.
It wasn't a secret, I was open with them, they were open with me...it was win-win-win. I think the trust has disappeared for whatever reason...I hope with my child we can be as open...
But yeah, like I said, its been on the books, but usually only gets enforced if kids are up to trouble. | |
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Snickerdo
Premium
join:2001-02-28
Niagara Falls, ON | Re: Show Us Your Papers Kids running around setting schools on fire isn't exactly anything new. | |
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Mashiki
Balking The Enemy's Plans
join:2002-02-04
Woodstock, ON | Re: Show Us Your Papers 20 fires in the last month however is. | |
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Elwood Blues
join:2006-08-30
Toronto, ON
| Re: Show Us Your Papers said by Mashiki :20 fires in the last month however is. OH I see... so one 15yr old kid is suspect of creating a fire, and is NOT suspected of the other 20.
However since he is 15 and caused a fire, all the other fires must have been caused by kids and thus SS-Obergruppenfuhrer Fantino can have them locked up at night in their beds
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Mashiki
Balking The Enemy's Plans
join:2002-02-04
Woodstock, ON
·Bright House
·Rogers Hi-Speed
1 edit | Re: Show Us Your Papers said by elwoodblues :OH I see... so one 15yr old kid is suspect of creating a fire, and is NOT suspected of the other 20. However since he is 15 and caused a fire, all the other fires must have been caused by kids and thus SS-Obergruppenfuhrer Fantino can have them locked up at night in their beds Actually yes. That's the whole "cause and causality" thing.
Take one dose of repeated fire, add in kids out of school. Take teenager getting caught and... that one shit rat ruining the fun for everyone else.
I'll just hazard a guess that there was a memo from the Ont. Gov to the OACP saying: "Enforce the law. That's your job." After the recent shit in London, Middlesex and so on. If you don't think there hasn't been a summer jump in youth crime you haven't been paying attention.
edit:
The scary thing is, it's only been a few weeks since most have been out of school. | |
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Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium
join:2005-03-12
| Re: Show Us Your Papers said by Mashiki :said by elwoodblues :OH I see... so one 15yr old kid is suspect of creating a fire, and is NOT suspected of the other 20. However since he is 15 and caused a fire, all the other fires must have been caused by kids and thus SS-Obergruppenfuhrer Fantino can have them locked up at night in their beds Actually yes. That's the whole "cause and causality" thing. There was a "cause and causality thing" that used to cause a lot of crimes in the southern U.S. to result in blacks being lynched from the nearest tree.
It's not even necessary to invoke Godwin's Law to demonstrate blatant infringement of human rights.
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"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" -- a corollary of Murphy's Law
"A dog is like a child who never grows old ... always there to love and be loved" -- Aaron Katcher
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Mashiki
Balking The Enemy's Plans
join:2002-02-04
Woodstock, ON
·Bright House
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| Re: Show Us Your Papers said by Wolfie00 :There was a "cause and causality thing" that used to cause a lot of crimes in the southern U.S. to result in blacks being lynched from the nearest tree. It's not even necessary to invoke Godwin's Law to demonstrate blatant infringement of human rights. That's a cute strawman. S1. of the charter says...
And I'm not even going to quote it, but let us remember how the common law has developed here and what the definition and restrictions on some 'rights' can apply to those under 18 if deemed reasonable by the courts and law. This is one of those cases. | |
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Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium
join:2005-03-12
1 edit | Re: Show Us Your Papers said by Mashiki :said by Wolfie00 :There was a "cause and causality thing" that used to cause a lot of crimes in the southern U.S. to result in blacks being lynched from the nearest tree. It's not even necessary to invoke Godwin's Law to demonstrate blatant infringement of human rights. That's a cute strawman. S1. of the charter says... And I'm not even going to quote it, but let us remember how the common law has developed here and what the definition and restrictions on some 'rights' can apply to those under 18 if deemed reasonable by the courts and law. This is one of those cases. Aww. come on, quote it! 
Does it help?
You know, my first reaction on seeing this topic was that it was about the inherent safety issues about young kids being out late at night. Wrong, of course!! SS-Obergruppenfuhrer Fantino had something else in mind entirely -- the security of the Reich!
There is a reason we have a judicial system. It's to provide a balanced interpretation of law in varying circumstances. The statutes as written are just words -- and subject to the kinds of abuses of law inflicted on the population by zealots like Fantino. It just take a great amount of money and effort to bring it before appellate courts.
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"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" -- a corollary of Murphy's Law
"A dog is like a child who never grows old ... always there to love and be loved" -- Aaron Katcher
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Mashiki
Balking The Enemy's Plans
join:2002-02-04
Woodstock, ON
·Bright House
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| Re: Show Us Your Papers said by Wolfie00 :Aww. come on, quote it! Does it help? You know, my first reaction on seeing this topic was that it was about the inherent safety issues about young kids being out late at night. Wrong, of course!! SS-Obergruppenfuhrer Fantino had something else in mind entirely -- the security of the Reich! There is a reason we have a judicial system. It's to provide a balanced interpretation of law in varying circumstances. The statutes as written are just words -- and subject to the kinds of abuses of law inflicted on the population by zealots like Fantino. It just take a great amount of money and effort to bring it before appellate courts. I'm old and lazy on friday nights, especially when I fall asleep writing essays.
It's a fair point, and I know where you're coming from. While it's not something I can easily dig at it's something I can actually ask around slyly about. But this reeks of higher directives then just from the OPP.
Don't forget either, that if the law is found to be unjust it'll be challenged. If it's not found to be then the courts have decided that it's reasonable for a lawful and just society. Again, that's the whole thing with unelected judges which is all okie in my book. If some group of kids really wanted to take it before the OCJ, and further up. I'm sure they could find a lawyer who'd do it for nothing simply to get their name in the books. Win or lose, it doesn't matter.  | |
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Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium
join:2005-03-12
| said by Mashiki :Annnndd...this is why they're going to be enforcing it. quote:
A 15-year-old young offender is charged with arson after a suspicious fire at a London school on Monday.
So there has never been an arson committed by anyone over 16 late at night?
I'd say it's time to enforce midnight-to-6 curfews for everyone.
And bring on martial law! I remember when the War Measures Act was declared by Trudeau and army tanks were rolling through the streets of Montreal, the rate of common crime fell to almost zero. Imagine that!
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"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" -- a corollary of Murphy's Law
"A dog is like a child who never grows old ... always there to love and be loved" -- Aaron Katcher
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Snickerdo
Premium
join:2001-02-28
Niagara Falls, ON
| Re: Show Us Your Papers said by Wolfie00 :And bring on martial law! I remember when the War Measures Act was declared by Trudeau and army tanks were rolling through the streets of Montreal, the rate of common crime fell to almost zero. Imagine that! To hell with civil liberties, who needs those anyway!
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I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen. | |
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Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium
join:2005-03-12
| Re: Show Us Your Papers said by Mashiki :Crime spikes when school gets out mean that you can pretty easily point to the issues at hand and can deal with them when you've got the tools. The "tool" in this case being Fantino! Or more precisely, the concept of incarcerating all students when school gets out, until they can be escorted back to their secure classrooms when September rolls around!
said by Mashiki :We got rid of the war measures act. But I'm sure we can prop up Trudeau on the back of a train and have him flip off some more Canadians. No need. You can have a real, live SS-Obergruppenfuhrer Fantino give the classic salute that I believe was first made famous in Munich about 75 years ago.
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"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" -- a corollary of Murphy's Law
"A dog is like a child who never grows old ... always there to love and be loved" -- Aaron Katcher
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Its a Secret
Whatever
Premium
join:2008-02-23
U B Funny
·Shaw
| Re: Show Us Your Papers said by Mashiki :Besides, if we're gonna go that route, why not just slap them into summer work programs stalags instead. Make them pay for the schooling. Fixed it for ya...
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"In the future, that which is not mandatory will be illegal"
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everybody agrees that it is old enough to know better" - Anonymous | |
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dirtyjeffer
Lest We Forget
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
·Rogers Hi-Speed
1 edit | i don't know what all the fuss over this is...heaven forbid the police enforce the law...besides, there really is no reason for most "kids" under 16 to be out after midnight, unless they are causing trouble.
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Today's motto: Dearly beloved, We are gathered here today to bid farewell to personal responsibility and accountability. | |
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Its a Secret
Whatever
Premium
join:2008-02-23
U B Funny
1 edit | Gawd, this reminds me of the Cheech and Chong skit on Big Bamboo(?)...
Show me ze papers, old man... | |
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| elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
join:2006-08-30
Toronto, ON
| Re: Show Us Your Papers said by Its a Secret :Gawd, this reminds me of the Cheech and Chong skit on Big Bamboo(?)... Show me ze papers, old man... I went googling for it, but I couldn't find it...
LOL
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It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses. | |
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Elwood Blues
join:2006-08-30
Toronto, ON
| Re: Show Us Your Papers No I meant I went looking for a Video or MP3 I know the album VERY VERY WELL.
I still have the original Rolling paper that came with the LP
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It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses. | |
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shaner
Premium
join:2000-10-04
Calgary, AB
| I don't get what the fuss is about. If you're under 16, you really shouldn't be out and about after midnight. And somehow I don't think there's going to be a dragnet of cops hitting the street at 12:01 AM rounding up every kid they see. I see this as another tool to use when they stumble upon a gaggle of goofs who are up to no good.
Just yesterday, an abandoned McDonalds in Edmonton was set on fire in the middle of the night causing $800k in damage. The suspects? 2 nine year old boys who "are known to police". It's these type of associations and gatherings of stupidity that this law will target. I don't see the gestapo running and breaking up a bush party in Drumbo. Because they could already do that, and generally don't.
Jeez, even ol' Irv always said it best. "It's eleven o'clock. Do you know where your children are?"
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I'm a man, but I can change. If I have to. I guess.
The opinions in this post are wholly my own and in no way reflect the opinions of, or are influenced by, Bell Canada or its affiliate companies. | |
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idlewillkill
Go Blue
Premium
join:2005-09-28
North York, ON
| I dunno.
Around that age, I partied quite a bit during the summertime.
My friends and I didn't damage things, had relatively quiet parties, etc, etc. Yeah, we drank underage, but pretty sure that law being broken didn't cause any problems.
We haven't murdered anyone yet!
The comments in the article linked are hilarious. How many of us were sleeping before midnight at the age of 15, during the summertime? Didn't we turn out ok? | |
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mr weather
Premium
join:2002-02-27
Mississauga, ON
| As a teenager I had an 11:30pm curfew that was strictly enforced by my parents. I think there was maybe a handful of times I stayed out later and that was with their permission.
And even then it was while at a friend's house.
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Tyreman
join:2002-10-08
1 edit | Its one of the neatest ways to get the parent maybe to sign as release or such. at pickup of child and IF any billable/collectable damage was done or alleged to have been by your darling..Ouch!!
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51019512
join:2009-05-19
151 Front St | Arrest them all, call CFS and file charges on the parents.
Thats what should be done. | |
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dirtyjeffer
Lest We Forget
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| with the increase in youth crime over the years, what parent wouldn't want their child home after midnight?
besides, as has been stated, don't hate Fantino for the law, he never made it...it's an almost 20 law that has been on the books forever...if you have a problem with the law, don't hate the cops, as they never made it.
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| elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
join:2006-08-30
Toronto, ON
| Re: Show Us Your Papers Is crime up? Really? Based on what numbers? When were stats started? Are there more kids these days then before?
There are lies, damn lies and then there are statistics.
Saying crime is up, is like saying I got a 10% raise this year, which sounds great, but it's out of context, raise based on what number?
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dirtyjeffer
Lest We Forget
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| while the age of these "kids" isn't known just yet (so this law may not matter in this particular case), it's no coincidence that "kids" out in the middle of night are usually up to no good:
»lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/···786.html
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Today's motto: Dearly beloved, We are gathered here today to bid farewell to personal responsibility and accountability. | |
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Its a Secret
Whatever
Premium
join:2008-02-23
U B Funny | But, we're back on topic now... | |
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Snickerdo
Premium
join:2001-02-28
Niagara Falls, ON
| I've already done the calculations. I can afford a mortgage, I can afford the taxes and I can afford the utilities. The issue is that I can't save up for a downpayment, and purchasing capital items such as appliances for the kitchen and laundry room would be difficult as well.
My plan is to buy the house, renovate the basement into a separate apartment and then rent it out. That will pay the mortgage and the taxes. All I'd need to pay would be my utilities. I'd end up significantly financially better off than I am now, it's just logistically difficult difficult difficult to get to that place.
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I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen. | |
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