deblin
Dark Side of the Moon
Premium,MVM
join:2001-09-01
Middletown, DE
| reply to cdru
Re: Anyone sucessfully switched from PPPoE to DHCP?
said by cdru  :said by cbrain :1. I log into several systems that use IP authentication. DHCP offers a much more stable IP. Neither is inherently more stable then the other. Both have mechanisms to reacquire the same IP address. Both have the ability to force an IP address to change if required when a lease times out. I've had both from Verizon with either DSL or with FiOS and both VERY rarely change but they have changed with either technology. If you are using any type of authentication that requires your IP address to be semi-static, you will have the exact same issues either way. I respectfully disagree. By the very nature of DHCP, it tries to retain the same IP address by renewing the lease 1/2 way through the lease duration. Barring a complete "reboot" or restart of the DHCP server, you will continue to get the same IP address. PPPoE on the other hand will give you a new IP every time (unless otherwise configured differently on the server side).
PPPoE adds 2 additional points of failure. The PPPoE server and the radius server for authentication. All you have to do is go through the AT&T forums to see various reports of "sync no surf", which is a problem with the PPPoE server or radius server preventing authentication and establishment of the tunnel.
In fact, I ditched SBC (now AT&T) at the time, because they were moving people from real static IPs to "sticky" PPPoE IPs (PPPoE that assigns the same IP each time) because I didn't want to have my connection rely on the PPPoE/radius servers, which were problematic (at least for SBC).
Granted, a DHCP server can also go down, but in my experience with PPPoE, I lost my IP much, much more frequently than with DHCP.
--
He who is not contented with what he has, would not be contented with what he would like to have. -Socrates |
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cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
| reply to cbrain
said by cbrain :While this may be technically true ... it absolutely does not work that way in the real world. At least in any area I've worked. Can you come up with any real advantage to PPPoE for the end user? I don't know if it's still the case, but back with DSL PPPoE customers were over provisioned more then DHCP to account for the overhead. As a result their real-world speeds were often faster then their DHCP counterparts. Other then that, there isn't really a advantage for PPPoE for the end user. The real benefit was on the ISP/telco side of the network as existing communication and billing infrastructures that were used for dialup were easily reused for broadband connections. The PPPoE connection was just treated as another "dial up" connection and metering or other information was easily integrated.
Anymore the connection setup and tear down that is required with PPPoE is essentially transparent to the end user as a router handles it on demand or just keeps it alive.
How much real difference will most of the new speeds make on a residential connection? I'm not sure where this fits in with discussing PPPoE, but the new speeds for an overwhelming majority of users won't make too much of a difference as they are only using a fraction of their bandwidth anyways. Large downloads maybe will be quicker, but if a webpage loads in a fraction of a second anyways, a few milliseconds shaved off of that won't be noticeable. For streaming content, as long as there is enough bandwidth to satisfy the stream additional bandwidth is just icing.
Isn't it up to each user to make their own choice? Honestly, no. I don't think it's a "choice" of the consumer. You are paying for a internet connection. PPPoE or DHCP, they are both industry norms and very widely supported. If it was some obscure technology that no one supported then people can complain. But who cares what format the data is transmitted. As long as you get your stated speed, low latency, and don't have packet loss, what difference does it really make if it was transmitted even using a string and two cups? |
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cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
| reply to deblin
said by deblin :I respectfully disagree. By the very nature of DHCP, it tries to retain the same IP address by renewing the lease 1/2 way through the lease duration. Barring a complete "reboot" or restart of the DHCP server, you will continue to get the same IP address. PPPoE on the other hand will give you a new IP every time (unless otherwise configured differently on the server side). With DHCP, you have an explicit lease that expires at a regular interval. With PPPoE, it's assigned to your connection. Now the connection may be closed (either forcibly by the ISP or via a network/hardware failure) but as long as your router stays connected you'll usually stick with the same address. I just rebooted my router several times and the newly established PPPoE connection each time always grabbed the same IP address.
PPPoE adds 2 additional points of failure. The PPPoE server and the radius server for authentication. All you have to do is go through the AT&T forums to see various reports of "sync no surf", which is a problem with the PPPoE server or radius server preventing authentication and establishment of the tunnel. Well, this is the Verizon forum, not the AT&T. Verizon will screw up your billing, but you'll get a reliable connection. Apparently AT&T might be able to get the billing straight, can't figure out the connection part. Perhaps the two companies should merge or something. 
Seriously though, yes it is an additional point of failure. But any ISP, especially of Verizon or AT&T's size should have high availability/redundancy in their systems. If they don't, then it's not a failure of the technology but rather of the specific implementation. Specifically with Verizon FiOS, I don't think I've ever had a PPPoE related issue since being one of the early adopters of FiOS.
Granted, a DHCP server can also go down, but in my experience with PPPoE, I lost my IP much, much more frequently than with DHCP. Prior to resetting my router just now, my existing IP address was 11 days old and that was just as far back as my logs went. Yes it's not static, but it's also not very dynamic either. Whether your address is changing every couple days or every couple of month, the thing is that under either scenario, the address has change. Neither offers guaranteed static addressing and the address could change at any time if there was a major issue somewhere in the network.
If you need to authenticate via IP address, neither technology is perfect for 100% "uptime" authenticating. If you just need pseudo-static addressing without needing to actually pay for it, either technology with Verizon (both with DSL and FiOS) will work from my experience without issue. If you need to contact your machine remotely, use one of the dynamic dns services out there...the changes either way are infrequent enough to cause not too many problems.
Me personally, I would not want to go through the red tape. I trust Verizon to keep my connection operating as long as I don't make major changes. Switching from PPPoE to DHCP or anything that contains the works "rebuild", "connection", or "account" is like playing russian roulette with billing. If the existing connection is stable and you aren't having problems, I don't think the gains justify the risks. But if you are having problems, can live without an internet connection for a day (or possibly a week [or two]), or you feel lucky, then go for it. |
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cbrain
join:2000-05-21
Silver Spring, MD
 ·VoicePulse for Bus..
 ·Verizon FIOS
 ·Comcast
·Future Nine Corpor..
·VoiceStick
·Packet8
| reply to cdru
said by cdru :I don't know if it's still the case, but back with DSL PPPoE customers were over provisioned more then DHCP to account for the overhead. As a result their real-world speeds were often faster then their DHCP counterparts. Other then that, there isn't really a advantage for PPPoE for the end user. ... So that overhead does make a difference. 
said by cdru :said by cbrain :Isn't it up to each user to make their own choice? Honestly, no. I don't think it's a "choice" of the consumer. You are paying for a internet connection. PPPoE or DHCP, they are both industry norms and very widely supported. If it was some obscure technology that no one supported then people can complain. But who cares what format the data is transmitted. As long as you get your stated speed, low latency, and don't have packet loss, what difference does it really make if it was transmitted even using a string and two cups? My choice would be to not use a string and two cups.
I had USNet/Covad DSL with a static IP in '99/2000, and never would consider DSL using PPPoE. When I ordered FiOS, my understanding was they were planning to transition us in a year or 2. I have written confirmation this is still the plan but no date.
My current array of choices include terminating FiOS for 31 days the re-ordering from Verizon or a FiOS reseller. I am attempting to eliminate the overhead of so many changes for both Verizon and myself. |
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Rattler
join:2001-04-13
Havertown, PA
 ·Verizon Online DSL
·Verizon FIOS
| reply to cbrain
FWIW...
When I had V* DSL, I was on PPPoE. I had my router set to keep the connection alive by sending a few dummy packets every couple of minutes. In general, I would go several months with the same IP address - at one point, I seem to remember that it was on the order of a half year with the same IP.
When I got FiOS, I was switched to DHCP. I've had FiOS since Feb, 2008. Not only do I change IP a couple times a month but I change IP blocks, switching around between 71.x.x.x, 72.x.x.x and 96.x.x.x. For the past few weeks, I have been on the 96.245.xxx.xxx block. and the last octet has changed twice, that I know of.
The router is on 24/7 and I do not think I am doing anything to trigger the changes.
Additionally, my daughter is provisioned with FiOS PPPoE at 20/5 from another CO. I have run a bunch of speed tests, on both our connections, and the results show insignificant differences between the two. As a matter of fact, hers usually tests at slightly over 5 Mbps on U/L where mine is consistently around 4.95 Mbps. On D/L, we both test in the 19.6 - 19.8 Mbps range - no reasonable evidence as to which connection is faster. And, BTW, I am GPON and she is BPON.
Anecdotal, at best, but that's what I've seen.
--
Never raise your hands to your kids. It leaves your groin unprotected. -- Red Buttons |
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cbrain
join:2000-05-21
Silver Spring, MD
·VoicePulse for Bus..
·Verizon FIOS
·Comcast
·Future Nine Corpor..
·VoiceStick
·Packet8
| reply to cbrain
I love BBR and have enormous respect for the combined knowledge the users share. I trust each user to choose the right service for themselves and to help others. I am lucky enough to live in an area with a lot of great broadband options. I support both commercial and residential users on a variety of connections and know the capabilities both regionally and in my neighborhood.
The 2 most cost effective options for my home are Comcast and Verizon FiOS. I have multi year experience with both at my home. I rate FiOS/DHCP first, Comcast/DHCP second and FiOS/PPPoE third for the square mile surrounding my home and for my current needs. I'm after my first choice and will no longer accept number three. I'll stipulate everyone else is correct for Earth, but my decision has been made for my home. I'm looking for help to get my first choice within the shortest time and least effort. |
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cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
| reply to cbrain
said by cbrain :So that overhead does make a difference. Point taken, but in the case of DSL it was from the days when 1.5mbit was the fastest you could get for about 2x what FiOS costs these days and people really bitched about not getting every last drop that they were paying for. On a 768 or 1500 kbit connection, 8 bytes per packet feels like a lot more then what it does on a 20mbit connection.
Good luck with whatever you end up doing. Be sure to follow up with the experience for others to reference in the future. |
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cbrain
join:2000-05-21
Silver Spring, MD
·VoicePulse for Bus..
·Verizon FIOS
·Comcast
·Future Nine Corpor..
·VoiceStick
·Packet8
| reply to tp0d
said by tp0d :... otherwise, when you call into the FSC, ask for the 'elite' support group. they know their stuff. ... verizoned - from Urban Dictionary
1. To neuter, or remove features from an electronic device, especially a cell phone, with the intent to make more money.
I propose an addition ... 2. to place a customer on hold after working out a resolution to the problem but before entering the order to achieve the results then abandoning the call. |
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batsona
Maryland
join:2004-04-17
Ellicott City, MD
·Verizon FIOS
·Vonage
| reply to cbrain
DynDNS does a perfect job of dealing with changing IP addresses. I use it - I SSH to "xxxxxxxx.gotdns.org", and it sends me right where I need to be. A small thin client runs on an 'always-on' host on my network, and detects / refreshes the A record with DynDNS. --But we all know how dynDNS works. --point being that it does a good job [for me], of mitigating a changing IP address. |
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deblin
Dark Side of the Moon
Premium,MVM
join:2001-09-01
Middletown, DE
| reply to cdru
said by cdru :With DHCP, you have an explicit lease that expires at a regular interval. With PPPoE, it's assigned to your connection. Now the connection may be closed (either forcibly by the ISP or via a network/hardware failure) but as long as your router stays connected you'll usually stick with the same address. I just rebooted my router several times and the newly established PPPoE connection each time always grabbed the same IP address. In my experience, reconnecting a PPPoE session meant a new IP address EVERY time. If Verizon is doing something differently or they have a larger IP address pool then I could see getting the same IP address. If the PPPoE server dies, guess what? You not only lose your connection, you lose your IP address. If a DHCP server goes down, chances are you wouldn't even notice unless it was an extended outage and the leases database typically survives a restart of the DHCP server (at least the software DHCP servers I know of).
Well, this is the Verizon forum, not the AT&T. Verizon will screw up your billing, but you'll get a reliable connection. Apparently AT&T might be able to get the billing straight, can't figure out the connection part. Perhaps the two companies should merge or something.
Seriously though, yes it is an additional point of failure. But any ISP, especially of Verizon or AT&T's size should have high availability/redundancy in their systems. If they don't, then it's not a failure of the technology but rather of the specific implementation. Specifically with Verizon FiOS, I don't think I've ever had a PPPoE related issue since being one of the early adopters of FiOS. Well apparently AT&T/SBC did not (do not?) utilize any sort of redundancy or live fail over because when the PPPoE server went tits up, you knew it immediately
Prior to resetting my router just now, my existing IP address was 11 days old and that was just as far back as my logs went. Yes it's not static, but it's also not very dynamic either. Whether your address is changing every couple days or every couple of month, the thing is that under either scenario, the address has change. Neither offers guaranteed static addressing and the address could change at any time if there was a major issue somewhere in the network. I think you'll have a hard time convincing anyone who has used both DHCP and PPPoE that they have similar IP address retention. Far from it.
If you need to authenticate via IP address, neither technology is perfect for 100% "uptime" authenticating. If you just need pseudo-static addressing without needing to actually pay for it, either technology with Verizon (both with DSL and FiOS) will work from my experience without issue. If you need to contact your machine remotely, use one of the dynamic dns services out there...the changes either way are infrequent enough to cause not too many problems. I think the OP would beg to differ. He's obviously wanting to move from PPPoE to DHCP for a reason. Yes of course it's not static, but it does provide more stability as far as how long you keep an IP address.
Me personally, I would not want to go through the red tape. I trust Verizon to keep my connection operating as long as I don't make major changes. Switching from PPPoE to DHCP or anything that contains the works "rebuild", "connection", or "account" is like playing russian roulette with billing. If the existing connection is stable and you aren't having problems, I don't think the gains justify the risks. But if you are having problems, can live without an internet connection for a day (or possibly a week [or two]), or you feel lucky, then go for it.
I wouldn't suggest the OP do it either. If Verizon had their sh*t together, they could do the conversion much more quickly and the OP wouldn't have had to start this thread. 
--
He who is not contented with what he has, would not be contented with what he would like to have. -Socrates |
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deblin
Dark Side of the Moon
Premium,MVM
join:2001-09-01
Middletown, DE
| reply to Rattler
I don't think the IP address changes that were rampant of late can be used for a valid comparison, because Verizon was adding a ton of IPv4 address space and shuffling things around.
Then again, it could simply be related to the reliability of the layer1/layer2 technology and the company supporting the infrastructure.
My experience with SBC and Comcast was that when I had DHCP with Comcast my IP address never changed. In fact, it survived a 3 week period in which I actually physically moved from an apartment to a house. I plugged in my same cable modem and same ethernet card in the new house after a 20 day hiatus and I immediately snagged the same IP address via DHCP.
When I had SBC, any sort of hiccup on the line would cause PPPoE to crap itself and re-establishing a PPPoE connection was a guaranteed new IP. This may have changed since I've been an SBC/AT&T customer.
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He who is not contented with what he has, would not be contented with what he would like to have. -Socrates |
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ProFiOSDude
Premium
join:2005-05-27
Chesapeake, VA
| reply to cbrain
Meanwhile, back at the ranch...
Getting switched from PPPoE to DHCP is only possible if your Central Office configured as such. Looking at past posts, some people were still be provisioned PPPoE as recent as this past Spring. If your neighbor is DHCP, then you should also be able to go to DHCP.
How?
Disconnect your service then establish new service.
PFD |
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JohnA
Premium
join:2003-09-16
Pittsburgh, PA
| said by ProFiOSDude : Looking at past posts, some people were still be provisioned PPPoE as recent as this past Spring. FIOS switched to DHCP in mid 2006. Got some links? |
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SquareSlinky
Premium
join:2004-05-25
Tampa, FL
·Verizon FIOS
·ViaTalk
| reply to ProFiOSDude
said by ProFiOSDude :Disconnect your service then establish new service. PFD the point was not having to disconnect and reconnect. |
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darcilicious
Cyber Librarian
Premium
join:2001-01-02
Forest Grove, OR
·Verizon FIOS
·Comcast
| said by SquareSlinky :said by ProFiOSDude :Disconnect your service then establish new service. PFD the point was not having to disconnect and reconnect. the point is that's exactly what a customer has to do if they initiate the change |
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celtic
join:2001-02-08
USA
| reply to cbrain
I did a quick search. Looks like some Verizon regions allow both and users can switch by changing their router setting.
»[new technologies] DHCP is up and running
Why can't Verizon arrange this for customers wishing to change? |
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More Fiber
Premium,MVM
join:2005-09-26
West Chester, PA | That post was from 2006.
As was stated in an earlier post, VZ stopped converting users from PPPOE to DHCP. |
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NY Tel
Premium
join:2004-04-09
Smithtown, NY
·VOIPo
| reply to celtic
I think the clarification here is that all routers will allow you to switch from PPPoE to DHCP and back, but if your line is not provisioned for one versus the other, you will not connect to the network.
I had the original DLINK and all it kept doing was "searching for DHCP" every 15 minutes but I was still on PPPoE.
Well needless to say, it never found DHCP because on my provisioned line DHCP does not exist,only PPPoE until big Red changes it at their end. |
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cbrain
join:2000-05-21
Silver Spring, MD
·VoicePulse for Bus..
·Verizon FIOS
·Comcast
·Future Nine Corpor..
·VoiceStick
·Packet8
| reply to cbrain
And here is a link to some clown that attempted to switch in January 2007 and failed.
»[northeast] PPPoE to DHCP
said by tp0d :... otherwise, when you call into the FSC, ask for the 'elite' support group. they know their stuff.. ... I spoke with an 'elite' rep that understood what I wanted and said "I wouldn't want to be on PPPoE either." He did a quick check and called the order processing department, explained what was needed then transferred me in. The order rep had a question and put me on hold. Some time later a new rep picked up and didn't know ...
I got a call from a rep in the retention department. I'm not sure which call she was responding to. She said she would figure out how to get this done and call me back ... been over 2 days now |
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celtic
join:2001-02-08
USA
| reply to More Fiber
said by More Fiber :That post was from 2006. As was stated in an earlier post, VZ stopped converting users from PPPOE to DHCP. Yes ... in 2006 Verizon already knew how to allow an account to use either PPPoE or DHCP without closing the account for 24 hours and then placing a new order. |
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