Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed in TekSavvy

Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed in TekSavvy http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r22475699 en Fri, 27 Nov 2009 22:32:42 EDT Fri, 27 Nov 2009 22:32:42 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22653089 backness :

said by jat

said by cacruden

:

Actually, the tax dollars continues this year - the feds are subsidizing addition buildout to bell lines for "rural" (i.e. underserved areas).

I'd heard about that, but my understanding was that it was an open contract which Bell won, which isn't quite the same thing. I could be wrong though. Either way, I don't think that's quite the same thing as financing the whole of Bell's network. The government does a lot of that kind of thing.

If you knew anything about government contracting, you'd know that the contract *likely* excluded just about everyone else in Canada by means of Statement of Work or adding a clause that says you have to have a fiber backbone to connect to or a presence in all of these communities already.

This is another handout for work that has already been paid for by the taxpayers in the form of government granted monopoly.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22653089 Sat, 04 Jul 2009 08:45:19 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22650715 anon : >Correct, but it's not the same thing as funding them with taxpayer money.

I am just pointing out that we as Canadian certainly paid more than our fair share from our pockets in our after tax dollars on lining BCE's pocket.

Noted that I have not stated one way or the other that BCE has or has not received money directly as a grant from the government. That remains something that needs to be looked up, but should not be a distraction in this matter.

I don't think anyone can argue that BCE at least is a Clown Corporation with Bozo working for them.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22650715 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 17:01:26 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22650342 jat :

said by An_Onymous :

Until recently, BCE is the "sole supplier" for everybody who wants telephone service in the past 100+ years. They are given a monopoly status to assure their survival as a business and allow to grow without having to face any competition like the rest of the business world in return for being regulated.

Correct, but it's not the same thing as funding them with taxpayer money.

said by An_Onymous :

In a sense, they "owe" Canada their current status. Now they turned around and abuse their monopoly status to hold the consumer hostage, do you think they don't deserve at least a few slaps?

I very much do. But I thought I'd already made it clear that I agree with the overall point.

said by An_Onymous :

All this argument of Crown Corporation is just semantics to distract away from the main topic.

You're absolutely right that it's just semantics, but I'm not trying to distract from the main point. I just think if the subject is going to be discussed, we should all agree on the basis for our arguments. It bothers me when someone makes an otherwise good point, but makes it with claims they can't back up. Especially in this case, where there are so many other good reasons why we should be granted access to Bell's lines that don't rely on the assumption that their network is funded by our tax dollars.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22650342 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 15:33:56 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22650337 jat :

said by cacruden

:

Actually, the tax dollars continues this year - the feds are subsidizing addition buildout to bell lines for "rural" (i.e. underserved areas).

said by cacruden

:

Additionally, when the lines are put down - there is work paid for by the city to put the road back the way it was before - cities were complaining about being forced to subsidize telco's line construction.

Now that's a new one. I just assumed Bell had to pay for all of that cleanup work. Happen to have any links on the subject?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22650337 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 15:33:05 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22650294 El Quintron :

said by An_Onymous :

All this argument of Crown Corporation is just semantics to distract away from the main topic.

+1

I can get behind that...
--
Working to bring you closer to a Bell and Rogers free household.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22650294 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 15:20:40 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22650273 anon : >It's just the "tax dollars" bit that I take issue with.

Until recently, BCE is the "sole supplier" for everybody who wants telephone service in the past 100+ years. They are given a monopoly status to assure their survival as a business and allow to grow without having to face any competition like the rest of the business world in return for being regulated.

In a sense, they "owe" Canada their current status. Now they turned around and abuse their monopoly status to hold the consumer hostage, do you think they don't deserve at least a few slaps?

All this argument of Crown Corporation is just semantics to distract away from the main topic.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22650273 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 15:17:19 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22650272 cacruden : Actually, the tax dollars continues this year - the feds are subsidizing addition buildout to bell lines for "rural" (i.e. underserved areas). [don't have the piece in front of me - but it was a couple of months ago]

Additionally, when the lines are put down - there is work paid for by the city to put the road back the way it was before - cities were complaining about being forced to subsidize telco's line construction.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22650272 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 15:15:32 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22650184 El Quintron : I'd also like to quote the following from the same article by the author:

quote:
As part of the other work I do I look for electronic versions of older government documents (Bills and summaries, statutes, etc). While the 1987 version of the Bell Canada Act is online, earlier versions are not. It would be interesting to have adequate online references for the history of Canadian telecommunications, given how quickly people forget and then believe the “we own it, and we can do what we want with it” rhetoric from the phone and cable companies.

Information about BCE's true financing may not be available or difficult to aquire.

(someone with more experience my want to file a few FOI requests...)

But its obvious that competition isn't getting a fair shake, and the fact that companies like TSI, Acanac, Velcom are still in business goes to show our government should be more supportive and protect their access.
--
Working to bring you closer to a Bell and Rogers free household.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22650184 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 14:55:31 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22650180 jat : What's unclear is how Bell's lines were "paid for with [you] and [your] parent's tax dollars," as you suggested. I'm not arguing your overall point. I actually agree with it. But a civil debate should be based on facts, and from everything I've seen, the "Bell's network was paid for by taxpayers" claim is nothing but an oft repeated myth. If you have a credible source saying otherwise, I'd be happy to accept it. But until someone comes up with one, can we lay off "paid for by us" talk? You can still back up your point with the whole monopoly/right of way issue.

Edit: I guess you could say it was paid for by us with our phone bills, since the monopoly meant we had no alternative. It's just the "tax dollars" bit that I take issue with. Monopolies, right of way, etc. has nothing to do with tax dollars, and I haven't seen anything to show that the government gave Bell our money.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22650180 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 14:54:32 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22650130 El Quintron :

quote:
Bell was given a number of requirements in exchange for this privileged government intervention. Historically the most often discussed was rural access, where Bell was mandated to offer phone services to rural locations — even at what might otherwise have been a loss, except for the fact that they were given practically guaranteed profits in other markets by the government, as well as massive government subsidies over the years. More recently the condition discusses more often is competitive access to the facilities which the public sector made possible (through right of way and subsidies) to allow services built upon this last mile to be provided by a competitive private sector.

That pretty much sums the situation up...

To be honest with you I don't really see what's unclear about this.
--
Working to bring you closer to a Bell and Rogers free household.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22650130 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 14:45:20 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22650097 jat : The text you quoted says nothing about Bell's network being funded by the government. The fact that they were granted a monopoly does not make them a crown corporation, nor does it mean they were subsidized by our tax dollars, which are exactly the claims you and others were making that were being disputed. I'll agree that the public has some right to the network (and not just because of the monopoly -- they're profiting off of the cables they're burying under our property!), but I've yet to see anyone back up their claim that Bell's network was paid for by Canadian taxpayers. And I don't think it's unreasonable to ask you to show your research proving it was.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22650097 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 14:36:17 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22650049 El Quintron :

said by ssherwood

:

Sounds like CC material to me.

-- SS

Read the article in the link I posted... they're a Crown in everything but in name, they're basically the "Preferred Government Provider" of Ontario Eastwards...

No amount of paid opinion-making can change that.
--
Working to bring you closer to a Bell and Rogers free household.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22650049 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 14:24:23 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22650034 ssherwood :

said by justsomeguy

:

Bell Canada was never a crown corporation!

Well - perhaps they weren't technically owned by the government the same way AGT was, and SaskTEL still is, but they did enjoy HUGE subsidies from government to roll out infrastructure across their territories.

They lived in the government's back pocket, and were essentially given a monopolistic umbrella to operate under.

Sounds like CC material to me.

-- SS]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22650034 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 14:19:36 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22650030 El Quintron :

said by backness

:

Correct however they did enjoy a 100 year MONOPOLY on long distance in Canada.

»www.nytimes.com/1992/06/13/busin···lls.html

It don't matter what we're dealing with here is Bell Astroturfing...

Notice how no matter what you say, the focus is always towards defending Bell's position, or showing that Bell is equal to or Better than TSI?

Stating that Bell isn't a crown corporation, Bell offers DryLoops for free etc etc.

Long thoughtful full replies are met with "well Bell isn't like that" or "Bell offers this service"

justsomeguy

: Money that could be used on building a better network but better spent on Astroturfing.
--
Working to bring you closer to a Bell and Rogers free household.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22650030 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 14:18:57 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22649953 backness : Correct however they did enjoy a 100 year MONOPOLY on long distance in Canada.

»www.nytimes.com/1992/06/13/busin···lls.html]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22649953 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 13:57:10 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22649907 El Quintron :

said by justsomeguy

:

When was I begging for stuff? I was curious about something in that thread. I got the answer I was looking for.

What you were doing was asking a loaded question, and wondering why the ISP you were considering purchasing from wouldn't price match.

Sound like begging to me.

Now for the crown/non-crown issue:

quote:
There is one of their services where they are different and that is in the provision of physical wiring to our homes. This is a service where Bell was given privileged “right of way” access by various levels of government to place cabling (copper, fiber, etc) below and above public and private land. Bell could never offer this service without government intervention, and the superior property right is the public and private property that the cables run below and above — not the cabling.

Bell was given a number of requirements in exchange for this privileged government intervention. Historically the most often discussed was rural access, where Bell was mandated to offer phone services to rural locations — even at what might otherwise have been a loss, except for the fact that they were given practically guaranteed profits in other markets by the government, as well as massive government subsidies over the years. More recently the condition discusses more often is competitive access to the facilities which the public sector made possible (through right of way and subsidies) to allow services built upon this last mile to be provided by a competitive private sector.

I will state what seems to be the core of the confusion: when it comes to this last mile wiring below and above our property, the service that Bell Canada manages can no more be considered privately “owned” by Bell than Canada Post can be considered private. While the ideal would have been if this specific service had been separated by Bell Canada and operated as a proper crown corporation, we can’t go back in time and fix this problem

»blogs.itworldcanada.com/insights···ottling/

Consider this you one and only research freebie. Next time you can expect a bill for a couple of hundred bucks.
--
Working to bring you closer to a Bell and Rogers free household.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22649907 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 13:46:12 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22649886 justsomeguy :

said by El Quintron

said by justsomeguy

:

Here is the challenge:

Find out how much money Bell has received from the government and when it received this money.

When was I begging for stuff? I was curious about something in that thread. I got the answer I was looking for.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22649886 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 13:41:43 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22649840 justsomeguy :

said by ssherwood

said by justsomeguy

:

I'm not persecuting anyone, but for someone claiming that they and their parents are paying for Bell's current infrastructure, I would like to see some data on that.

So the challenge is out there, you arent the only one who has made this claim.

Here is the challenge:

Find out how much money Bell has received from the government and when it received this money.

Bell Canada was never a crown corporation!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22649840 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 13:31:10 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22649829 El Quintron : Ideally the city would own the fiber infrastructure. Or manage it if they didn't own it, with a mandate to provide access for all ISPs.
--
Working to bring you closer to a Bell and Rogers free household.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22649829 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 13:29:35 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22649728 anon : >A patchwork of small companies building out in different areas would be a nightmare for them.

Agree. You don't want 15 different ISP digging up the same road at different time in the month just because each of them needs to get from their CO to their own customer in the same apartment complex.

At some point one company need to own the last mile in the city. Same situation in the power grid and gas lines.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22649728 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 13:16:35 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22649754 ssherwood :

said by justsomeguy

The real stumbling block isn't a determination of Bell's recent or current infrastructure investments, which largely would be measured before the so-called "last mile" of the network.

What 3rd party providers pay through the nose for is access to this legacy cabling, which yes, was largely paid for by tax payer dollars when Bell was a crown corporation. This "last mile" of the network was paid for by you, me, and previous generations too.

It is an unfortunate thing to have to rehash this point over and over again. It isn't a matter of speculation - its a commonly known fact.

The twisted copper pairs going into the vast majority of Canadian homes and businesses have been there for a very, very long time.

-- SS]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22649754 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 13:11:04 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22649665 backness : How about you do some basic research on Elasticity. I would pay particular attention to Inelastic supply.

Here is a good primer:
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elasticity_(economics)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22649665 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 12:47:49 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22649616 El Quintron :

said by justsomeguy

:

Here is the challenge:

Find out how much money Bell has received from the government and when it received this money.

Here is the real challenge:

Find a solution to Canada's Telecom infrastructure problems without begging for free stuff from your ISP (ie: »Bell/Acanac can but Teksavvy can't? )

and stop quoting popular talking points from BYO Trolls...
--
Working to bring you closer to a Bell and Rogers free household.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22649616 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 12:35:40 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22649596 justsomeguy :

said by El Quintron

said by justsomeguy

:

I'd like to see the numbers.

I'm not persecuting anyone, but for someone claiming that they and their parents are paying for Bell's current infrastructure, I would like to see some data on that.

So the challenge is out there, you arent the only one who has made this claim.

Here is the challenge:

Find out how much money Bell has received from the government and when it received this money.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22649596 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 12:29:52 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22649451 El Quintron :

said by justsomeguy

:

I'd like to see the numbers.

And I'd like to see some research from you before coming onto this forum and asking for free dry-loops and FTTH.

A red carpet to your computer perhaps?

Other point worthy of mention here is that with wireline type of infrastructure you do need some type of regulation regarding how much of it you can put up (or down) in an urban area.

If you looked at the amount of Telephone and Electric wiring in the sky in NYC towards the end of the 1800... there were wires everywhere.

How about you try contributing possible solutions rather persecuting providers who are actually on the consumer's side.
--
Working to bring you closer to a Bell and Rogers free household.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22649451 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 12:00:40 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22648948 anon :

said by justsomeguy

said by El Quintron

said by justsomeguy

:

Its not pie in the sky. What we have here is a bunch of companies in Canada that are happy reselling Bell's lines,

Reselling my lines, paid for with mine and my parent's tax dollars thank you.

How much money did Bell get and when?

Got any hard facts on this? I do not dispute that they have received some help in the past. I'd like to see the numbers.

Perhaps you should stick with Bell then seeing as you admire them so much after all they've been so wonderful for Canada...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22648948 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 10:15:15 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22647183 pnjunction :

said by justsomeguy

:

Taking years is miles ahead of doing nothing. From my understanding, TSI has chosen to test some fibre out in a rural community. That is commendable and hopefully they will try something like a block in Toronto or something soon.

The problem is I never see that happening. It's one thing for a rural area to let a small company build out some service.

Toronto, on the other hand, is not going to want to deal with small companies. A patchwork of small companies building out in different areas would be a nightmare for them. It's just too easy for them to only rubber stamp Bell/Rogers applications to do infrastructure work.

Edit: I don't know the exact right-of-way situation, this is just the impression that I get.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22647183 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 20:30:57 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22647146 justsomeguy :

said by mlerner

said by justsomeguy

:

So when/if Bell gets around to doing FTTH, are companies like Teksavvy going to be rolling out FTTH, or are they going to wait until Bell does FTTH and then convince the government to let Teksavvy use the other companies lines again?

Taking years is miles ahead of doing nothing. From my understanding, TSI has chosen to test some fibre out in a rural community. That is commendable and hopefully they will try something like a block in Toronto or something soon.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22647146 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 20:23:40 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22647133 justsomeguy :

said by El Quintron

said by justsomeguy

:

Its not pie in the sky. What we have here is a bunch of companies in Canada that are happy reselling Bell's lines,

Reselling my lines, paid for with mine and my parent's tax dollars thank you.

How much money did Bell get and when?

Got any hard facts on this? I do not dispute that they have received some help in the past. I'd like to see the numbers.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22647133 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 20:20:25 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22646979 El Quintron :

said by justsomeguy

:

Its not pie in the sky. What we have here is a bunch of companies in Canada that are happy reselling Bell's lines,

Reselling my lines, paid for with mine and my parent's tax dollars thank you.
--
Working to bring you closer to a Bell and Rogers free household.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22646979 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 19:43:56 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22646969 El Quintron : I'm going to be generous assume you're not one of these build your own trolls... but here goes.

TSI is already building out fiber in areas where they have right of way.

They don't have right of way in most urban areas because the incumbents have lobbied to keep them out on all fronts.

Make sense now?

You may want to look up some history, and get a little more information before trotting out the: build your own, get facilities at the CO etc etc...

If it was that easy, there would be no need for tariffs, access guarantess and such.
--
Working to bring you closer to a Bell and Rogers free household.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22646969 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 19:42:18 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22646933 mlerner :

said by justsomeguy

Working on it, problem is it'll take years and it's a huge undertaking plus with Bell's underhanded tactics, they may decide to play hardball. Despite what you may think, Bell is not at all guilty in all of this, they'd rather have no competition at all. That's not the way to do business.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22646933 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 19:34:53 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22646869 justsomeguy :

said by El Quintron

:

+1

@justsomeguy

Build your own is a pie in the sky... too many right of way issues and too many entrenchment issues as well. Assuming there were no right of way/access issues, then we'd be set.

We wouldn't have to fight this one in the courts, but the fact in right now competitors can do fiber rollouts where the incumbents don't have pre-dominance. Which they're already doing.

Its not pie in the sky. What we have here is a bunch of companies in Canada that are happy reselling Bell's lines, not willing to go out on their own and innovate, when they could do small piece by piece rollouts in heavily packed areas.

Instead, they are fighting for access to copper that we know only goes upto 24mbit and is not in any way shape or form the way of the future.

So when/if Bell gets around to doing FTTH, are companies like Teksavvy going to be rolling out FTTH, or are they going to wait until Bell does FTTH and then convince the government to let Teksavvy use the other companies lines again?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22646869 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 19:17:03 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22646819 l0thar :

said by Lewism8

:

Rogers and Bell have a lot of right of way to put poles and wires. New companies can't have those. Why? Bell and Rogers block them.

Disclaimer - I am not a lawyer, paralegal or in any other such profession. Just a normal guy like everyone else here.

But my understanding is that the 'right of way' or 'utility easement' is not a property of a telco or another. (Good wikipedia article here - »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easement )

An easement is a clause in the property title stating there's a portion of the property where utilities can be strung. That includes electricity, telephone and cable services at this time, and nobody can exclude future needs (cable was something that started in the 1960's afaik).

What limitations there are, is that a new startup trying to bring their lines thru the easements might have to pay one of the other utilities rent for using their poles. The incumbent company might not like the newcomers, but I think they have to share the easement, while entitled to some compensation.

Recently, I spoke to a contractor in a nearby city who was doing some major new conduit pulling on the boulevard in front of the homes.

Cogeco cable was the company ordering the work, to replace the old cables they had hanging in the poles on the back of the properties. The cables were in bad shape (aluminum shielding, starting to corrode badly in places), and Bell canada owned the poles, thereby adding a rent cost for Cogeco.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22646819 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 19:05:16 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22646729 El Quintron : +1

@justsomeguy

Build your own is a pie in the sky... too many right of way issues and too many entrenchment issues as well. Assuming there were no right of way/access issues, then we'd be set.

We wouldn't have to fight this one in the courts, but the fact in right now competitors can do fiber rollouts where the incumbents don't have pre-dominance. Which they're already doing.
--
Working to bring you closer to a Bell and Rogers free household.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22646729 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 18:45:01 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22646697 Lewism8 : Rogers and Bell have a lot of right of way to put poles and wires. New companies can't have those. Why? Bell and Rogers block them.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22646697 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 18:35:59 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22646678 justsomeguy :

said by Peter Principle :

said by justsomeguy

:

The fact is that the Canadian market demonstrates that people are willing to pay more for less, so that is what we will continue to get.

Nice simplistic play on semantics.

Substitute have for willing. Just like any other commodity with little competition.

You can't be that simple. It was a joke right?

Broadband internet is a choice, nobody is forced to have it. Nobody is being forced to pay Bell and Rogers for it.

If it was profitable in Canada to provide low cost, high bandwidth residential internet access , then someone would be doing it. Where are they?

Where are the fibre rollouts? Why do most companies seem content with fighting for the use of existing infrastructure and not building their own new
infrastructure?

I'd be complaining more about these ISPs that spend all their time fighting with Bell/CRTC instead of doing their own equipment rollouts. I realize it is expensive, but one small piece at a time and slowly but surely they get somewhere. Fighting with the CRTC/Bell only will lead to more fighting because these companies will still be using someone elses infrastructure.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22646678 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 18:31:26 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22646037 anon :

said by justsomeguy

:

The fact is that the Canadian market demonstrates that people are willing to pay more for less, so that is what we will continue to get.

Nice simplistic play on semantics.

Substitute have for willing. Just like any other commodity with little competition.

You can't be that simple. It was a joke right?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22646037 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 16:30:20 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22645967 justsomeguy : Well its always nice to wish that we could get higher speeds for the same or less money.

The fact is that the Canadian market demonstrates that people are willing to pay more for less, so that is what we will continue to get.

Other markets have other circumstances and they cannot be applied here for various reasons. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22645967 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 16:11:23 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22645918 Martian3 :

said by justsomeguy

:

What has that got to do with this thread?

Being a little friendlier --

The lack of competition in the Canadian broadband market has everything to do with this thread. The whole reason that Canada is falling behind in terms of speed and cost is because the incumbents don't have sufficient competition. Pretty much all of the negative things that have happened around here since TSI started offering internet (everything from speed caps to throttling and now possibly usage based billing) is a direct result of BCE acting like a petulant child because the CRTC actually had the nerve to tell them to share their toys. They're trying very, very hard to avoid having to compete directly, because then they'd have to acknowledge the fact that their services are overpriced and underpowered.

ADSL2+ supports speeds up to 24 mbps. Bell customers, if they're very lucky and have a lot of money to throw around, can get 16. Wholesale subscribers can get 5. Can you honestly tell me you see nothing wrong with this picture, especially when other markets clearly demonstrate that offering much higher speeds at lower prices is very economically viable?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22645918 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 15:59:59 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22645908 justsomeguy :

said by mlerner

said by justsomeguy

What has that got to do with this thread?

You really are clueless aren't you?

This thread isnt about competition amongst ISPs.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22645908 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 15:58:12 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22645884 mlerner :

said by justsomeguy

What has that got to do with this thread?

You really are clueless aren't you?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22645884 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 15:53:14 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22645861 justsomeguy :

What has that got to do with this thread?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22645861 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 15:49:39 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22645853 Martian3 :

said by justsomeguy

:

Who cares about the "slipping position" ?

Right here.

It's not so much about competing as it is keeping up with the global standard. The entire world is moving towards digital distribution as a primary medium for pretty much everything. If we as a nation don't develop the infrastructure to support that, we're going to get left behind. And as long as there are consumers out there who still think 10mbps is fast and that $70+ is a fair price for that level of connectivity, it's not going to happen. Why should Bell upgrade when people are seemingly content with the creaking old infrastructure they have in place now?

I read recently that many if not most of Bell's DSLAMs are still connected upstream on OC3 or OC12 lines. That's a bloody joke, especially when Verizon immediately to the south of us is offering FIOS services with virtually no oversubscription.

EDIT - I was trying to avoid any rants, but I feel that I ought to clarify something. My last two posts make it seem as if I blame the Canadian consumers for Canada's lagging position. This is partly true, but most of the ignorance on this issue comes from the fact that Canada is essentially a monopoly when it comes to telecommunications. Canadian consumers literally don't know any better, because nobody's offering it. I can only hope that's going to change soon.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22645853 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 15:48:18 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22645811 mlerner :

said by justsomeguy

:

Who cares about the "slipping position" ? this isn't a competition.

Over the course of the last several months there has been so many pointless posts here from people talking about how other countries are getting 100mbit upto multi-gigabit connections to the home. Its just silliness.

Ok so do you enjoy your "up to" 10 mpbs with 95 GB cap service? Would you enjoy it even more if every ISP was forced to match it? Competition is a good thing otherwise it turns to monopolistic corruption.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22645811 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 15:38:37 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22645802 justsomeguy : Who cares about the "slipping position" ? this isn't a competition.

Over the course of the last several months there has been so many pointless posts here from people talking about how other countries are getting 100mbit upto multi-gigabit connections to the home. Its just silliness. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22645802 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 15:36:05 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22645758 Martian3 : Bell's advertised price on Max16 is promotional. $72.95 includes a $5 bundle discount and a $10 promotional discount, and doesn't include the mandatory $3.95 modem rental. The actual cost for 16mbps internet through Bell is $91.90 per month. Should you have the audacity to actually use all that bandwidth you're paying for, anything over 100 GB is charged at $1.00 per GB up to $30 per month, meaning that a moderate to heavy user can pay as much as $121.90.

By comparison, I can bond two lines from TSI for about $75 per month. Assuming the CRTC gets their heads out of their behinds any time soon, that ought to provide me with 14 mbps down, 1.6 up and 400 GB of usage. And MLPPP is inherently less cost efficient, since it requires two drops, two line cards and special hardware or software at either end of the connection.

Something's not right about that.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22645758 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 15:26:05 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22645674 Sanny : The fact that Canada seems to have fallen so far behind other countries is quite shocking.

I lived in Canada from 2003 till 2008. Started off with Bell for my internet then switched to TekSavvy. For the first maybe 2-3 years while I was in Canada I was getting a faster connection than my parents in the UK were and I was paying less. After that point though it all started to change, rapidly.

I'm back living in the UK now and I pay £17.50 (about $34) a month for a 'upto 24Mb' connection (I currently sync at 14mb) which is unthrottled and unlimited.

Just seems amazing to me that in the UK the speed and cost of the internet seems to have improved year upon year. While in Canada, it just seems to have stood still, or even been held back. I still keep an eye on prices in Canada as I do intend to move back at somepoint and it's almost laughable to see some of the prices over there now. Bell charging $73 or so for a throttled, limited 16Mb connection, that's unbelievable.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22645674 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 15:06:45 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22645622 Martian3 : Yeah, cell technology isn't nearly robust enough to support widespread adoption as a primary internet solution. Increasing cell density can help to a point, but there's only so much spectrum out there, and until somebody figures out a way to push a lot more data over the radio waves available it's not going to be sufficient. I'm not overly familiar with LTE, but Guspaz's numbers are in line with what little I know of it, and that kind of bandwidth isn't going to be sufficient for more than a handful of subscribers per cell without some massive oversubscription going on.

Not to mention that putting up new towers is expensive, and the start ups aren't likely going to have the cash to do so in any real numbers. If the subscription levels remain constant or increase it amortizes quickly, but there's still a significant initial investment.

The entire Canadian telecom industry is a bit of a joke, an the biggest problem is that Canadians have gotten so used to it that they're largely apathetic. Nobody bats an eye at the idea of paying $50+ per month for 7 mbps, despite the fact that most of the rest of the world gets much faster for much cheaper. I tell people that text messaging is disabled on my phone because I consider it to be too expensive, and I get funny looks.

As long as Canadian consumers are content to let the current situation stand, Bell and friends have no incentive to change. It's more profitable to implement UBB and not invest in infrastructure. Sure it's going to hamstring Canadian internet connectivity in a few years, but that's somebody else's problem.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22645622 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 14:57:10 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22645095 cacruden :

said by Guspaz

:

LTE (4G) is ~82mbit per 5MHz of spectrum. HSDPA (3.5G) is (as far as I can tell) up to ~7mbit per 5MHz of spectrum (although Rogers' 7.2mbit service is only ~3.6mbit per 5MHz of spectrum).

Many of these companies have only like 10 or 20 MHz of spectrum to play with. So with current 3.5G networks they can expect to push no more than roughly 14mbit/s among ALL customers in any given cell.

Even though LTE pushes it way up, that's still not enough for widespread fixed broadband deployment. It might be OK for getting into that a bit, with perhaps some low-bandwidth fixed offerings, but not enough to go nuts with it.

With LTE I thought it was sufficient for broadband to houses given that if a one tower becomes saturated, you would just increase the density of towers in that area (is that not the case?). ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22645095 Thu, 02 Jul 2009 13:14:57 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22482656 anon :

said by mlerner

:

28th really? And we're supposed to be close to the US? We should just call ourselves a third world country!

Good idea. That way we'd be eligible to get foreign aid from Lesotho, Bangladesh, and The Federated States of Micronesia, to help bring our internet standards up to that of the 2nd world.

Of course Harper would just hand the money over to Bell.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22482656 Tue, 02 Jun 2009 11:35:22 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22479355 anon : Bell is generating $354,000 per employee, btw

i got that quote from another thread here, if their making that much, how do they NEED money to upgrade??? what BS]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22479355 Mon, 01 Jun 2009 19:00:59 EDT la HERO TACO BELL http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22479322 chronoss2009 : "the lil mexican dog form da taco bell commercials just ran past canada today for faster net access"

....while throttled tests showed it was faster to use a note attached to the lil dog rather then send something via BCE's back bone.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22479322 Mon, 01 Jun 2009 18:54:43 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22479256 Guspaz : That doesn't change the fact that cellular service is an inherently shared medium. You've got a VERY small amount of bandwidth in any given place, and everybody has to share it.

LTE (4G) is ~82mbit per 5MHz of spectrum. HSDPA (3.5G) is (as far as I can tell) up to ~7mbit per 5MHz of spectrum (although Rogers' 7.2mbit service is only ~3.6mbit per 5MHz of spectrum).

Many of these companies have only like 10 or 20 MHz of spectrum to play with. So with current 3.5G networks they can expect to push no more than roughly 14mbit/s among ALL customers in any given cell.

Even though LTE pushes it way up, that's still not enough for widespread fixed broadband deployment. It might be OK for getting into that a bit, with perhaps some low-bandwidth fixed offerings, but not enough to go nuts with it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22479256 Mon, 01 Jun 2009 18:41:31 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22479065 anon :

said by Guspaz

:

As such, cellular-based internet service will remain a high-priced mobile-oriented solution.

But you can rest assured that Bell and the other cell providers will find a way to fudge the numbers to influence many folks to overlook the cost in favour of the functionality.

And if Bell also gets the cost of DSL service up enough due to UBB and any other ways of raising its price, the wireless plans will not seem as different, even to those who DO compare the numbers, and some customers will migrate anyway, yes ?

Hmmmm....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22479065 Mon, 01 Jun 2009 18:02:33 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22478729 El Quintron :

said by Livadia

:

OTOH, why blame them? People get the government they deserve, right?

I know but I wish I didn't have to live with the government these other people so richly deserve.

:p
--
Working to bring you closer to a Bell and Rogers free household.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22478729 Mon, 01 Jun 2009 16:55:05 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22478723 anon :
The government and the CRTC's position is basically that of trying to protect a dying market concept, that of a monolithic carrier & content provider.

The bulk of the rest of the OECD countries are or are moving towards real common carrier networks and FTTP.

Canada's current position is as futile as trying protect buggy whip manufacturers from the impact of the automobile.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22478723 Mon, 01 Jun 2009 16:54:22 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22478690 Livadia :

said by DrZEUS

:

the sad part is it feels like there is nothing we can do and simply accept our fate as an ailing nation who no longer is the envy of others

That ended in late '80s up to mid '90s with slashing and burning everything. Most often, government policies do not have any obvious impact until years later. By then, people will have forgotten what brought them there. That allows those cretins to continue governing with the only concern what the polls will say the next day.

OTOH, why blame them? People get the government they deserve, right?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22478690 Mon, 01 Jun 2009 16:46:10 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22478585 decx : The real problem I see isn't that our current predicament is bad, it's that there's no really solution to the problems being implemented in the foreseeable future. While other countries are busy implementing FTTH or similar last mile connectivity, Canadian providers are busy implementing DPI based throttling, and usage based billing. While the world is going in one direction, Canada isn't following slowly behind, we're practically going the opposite direction.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22478585 Mon, 01 Jun 2009 16:28:37 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22478092 Guspaz : You'll note that the 30GB plan is actually "unlimited", so there's no option to purchase anything above 30GB (which could be an issue). There's also an extra $5 fee to tether.

The cellular networks can't support very many high-bandwidth users. Services like Rogers RocketStick (advertised as 7.2mbit) have very low bandwidth caps (5GB max) because it's a cellular service; the amount of bandwidth in any given area is extremely limited.

The same will be true for GlobaLive. Cellular networks can't be used to deploy home broadband due to insufficient bandwidth (it's all shared). Even LTE (4G) can't provide enough for home broadband.

As such, cellular-based internet service will remain a high-priced mobile-oriented solution.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22478092 Mon, 01 Jun 2009 15:03:41 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22478012 static416 :

said by DrZEUS

:

the sad part is it feels like there is nothing we can do and simply accept our fate as an ailing nation who no longer is the envy of others

There is a possibility that GlobalLive (the new cell carrier) could shake things up a bit in Q4-2009/Q1-2010.

»networkfineprint.com/index.php?t···Wireless

There was a leaked presentation on Howard Forums (may be real, may be a marketing move) that implied they will have a 10Mbps wireless network with 30 GB data plans for $40 per month.

If true, that could really mess with internet delivery in Canada. Why buy a DSL connection at 5Mbps when you can get a 10Mbps wireless connection for the same price, granted with a 30GB cap. I'd buy it.

Regardless of the details, if wired connections continue to suck with this sort of magnitude, there is a good chance a cell carrier could step in and take over. HSPA can do 14Mbps down and 6Mbps up, that kicks Bells ass.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22478012 Mon, 01 Jun 2009 14:50:18 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22477955 DrZEUS : the sad part is it feels like there is nothing we can do and simply accept our fate as an ailing nation who no longer is the envy of others]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22477955 Mon, 01 Jun 2009 14:41:34 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22477662 mlerner : 28th really? And we're supposed to be close to the US? We should just call ourselves a third world country!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22477662 Mon, 01 Jun 2009 13:51:48 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22477524 El Quintron :

said by Not LOLing :

I would LOL too were it not for this sickening feeling in the pit of my stomach.

You and me both... the amounts of bile I emit due to the worsening state of the internet in Canada is gonna shorten my lifespan for sure.
--
Working to bring you closer to a Bell and Rogers free household.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22477524 Mon, 01 Jun 2009 13:31:32 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22477339 anon : I would LOL too were it not for this sickening feeling in the pit of my stomach.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22477339 Mon, 01 Jun 2009 13:08:20 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22476788 R0CKY : LOL]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22476788 Mon, 01 Jun 2009 11:41:44 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22476730 static416 :

said by El Quintron

:

The most telling item that should be brought to the CRTCs attention is the following:

quote:
Canada ranks 28th out of 30 countries, ahead of only Mexico and Poland. This may be the most telling metric, since it confirms that Canadians pay more for less.

But Bell said they NEED the extra money from bandwidth overage charges to upgrade the network. I mean we're not economic powerhouses like Mexico or Poland, we can't expect to have better than third-world level connectivity without overage charges and caps.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22476730 Mon, 01 Jun 2009 11:28:23 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22476298 El Quintron : The most telling item that should be brought to the CRTCs attention is the following:

quote:
Canada ranks 28th out of 30 countries, ahead of only Mexico and Poland. This may be the most telling metric, since it confirms that Canadians pay more for less.

--
Working to bring you closer to a Bell and Rogers free household.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22476298 Mon, 01 Jun 2009 10:05:17 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22476293 El Quintron :

quote:
Internet users in Japan, Korea and France enjoy a genuinely different Internet experience, where the far-faster speeds allows for applications and services that have yet to make their mark in Canada.

'Nuff said...
--
Working to bring you closer to a Bell and Rogers free household.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22476293 Mon, 01 Jun 2009 10:04:03 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22475975 AkFubar : Good article...helps us with our cause too. Easy to read for most. Good to see some light cast on these issues in a public forum like the Star.
--
"No matter where you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Banzai]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22475975 Mon, 01 Jun 2009 08:42:02 EDT Re: Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22475932 anon : It's sad to see that Canada has slipped lower than India on a price per megabyte rate. If you take throttling into account Canada would be below the chart literally falling off the edge of the world ranking dead last by-light years.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22475932 Mon, 01 Jun 2009 08:30:53 EDT Canada's slipping position on net access cost & speed http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22475699 decx : Here is Geist latest article in the Star on Canada's continuing drop on net access rankings and poor outlook.

»www.thestar.com/sciencetech/article/643388]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22475699 Mon, 01 Jun 2009 05:36:20 EDT