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<title>Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary in Canadian Broadband</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r22465187</link>
<description></description>
<language>en</language>
<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:17:38 EDT</pubDate>
<lastBuildDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:17:38 EDT</lastBuildDate>

<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22848248</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/248514"><b>mlerner</b></A> : Haven't read through all of them yet but good work on your r&v JF. I especially like the last part "Better definitions of the tariff are needed" I think right now that's exactly what needs to happen.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22848248</guid>
<pubDate>Tue, 11 Aug 2009 07:49:25 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22848231</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><b>jfmezei</b></A> : Here are the 3 documents that have been submitted so far for the comments on Bell's paragraph 18.<div class="borderless"><TABLE WIDTH=95% align=center border=0 CELLPADDING=4"><TR><TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=CENTER BGCOLOR=#000000 nwrap COLSPAN=3 WIDTH=100%><A HREF="/r0/download/1458234~cf6d03f87d4f998000e6c40683ab16fb/PVReport1v6.pdf">PVReport1v6.pdf</A><br>Per Vices Corp.</TD></TR><TR><TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=CENTER BGCOLOR=#000000 nwrap COLSPAN=3 WIDTH=100%><A HREF="/r0/download/1458235~417db555e321649d8a7eb50c9d999ac8/CAIP-PIAC_10Aug09.pdf">CAIP-PIAC_10&middot;&middot;&middot;ug09.pdf</A><br>CAIP-PIAC</TD></TR><TR><TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=CENTER BGCOLOR=#000000 nwrap COLSPAN=3 WIDTH=100%><A HREF="/r0/download/1458236~3aa824da4470ff8fc557a2a099cf01e2/vaxination_r%26v_supplemental.pdf">vaxination_r&middot;&middot;&middot;ntal.pdf</A><br>Vaxination Informatique</TD></TABLE></div>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22848231</guid>
<pubDate>Tue, 11 Aug 2009 07:44:47 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22824117</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1652067"><b>MaynardKrebs</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  freejazz_RdJ <A HREF="/useremail/u/1627906"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>Is anybody missing the fact that 14% or 16% of users using 27% and 29% of a finite resource is inequitable if the balance of users are sacrificing (by being throttled without MLPPP/VPN/SSH workarounds) their speeds in the name of equity? This kind of inequitable distribution wouldn't be tolerated with water from a common aquifer, school funding or all manner of things, why is it any more fair in this context? <br><br> </div>There's nothing to suggest that the 'other' users are being denied anything since there is no analysis of which users are are actually on-line <b>and when</b> during the 10 hour period Bell construes to be the "peak period".<br><br>The way Bell has presented their 'data' could be totally fudged to skew the argument their way. What if most of the 'excessive' consumption occurred during the period of midnight-2am when the majority of casual users were asleep - who in their right mind would give a rat's ass about congestion then? <br><br>Bell's user numbers just look at the 'peak' 4pm-2am period as a whole, so it's impossible to say who is being affected, when, and for how long. <br><br>*sarcasm* But we're supposed to believe Bell because they have no vested interest in not skewing anything they report to the CRTC. */sarcasm*  <br><br>The trouble with the whole CRTC process is that there is no INDEPENDENT verification/audit of what any of the ILEC's tell the CRTC. That's like Enron saying they didn't manipulate the electricity markets, or Bre-X saying that their assays were legit. <br><br>In the transportation of fresh produce from say, California to Toronto, the transport truck is supposed to keep the cargo refrigerated to 4C for the entire time, but when the load arrives and the grapes are mush, the trucker would claim that the grapes were in poor condition when loaded. In order to confirm/deny this sort of thing, the produce industry loads one or more tamper resistant temperature chart recorders in each truck - which provides irrefutable evidence of the temperature by the minute throughout the whole journey. This is the sort of thing that the CRTC needs to be having done. <br><br>The CRTC should not be allowing implementation of throttling and denying consumers what they paid for and then being put into the position of dealing with complaints on an ex-post basis. If Bell had a problem, they should have approached the CRTC and asked for a traffic audit, and then made application for DPI/throttle to be done ex-ante. This is what Bell traffic people would have had to do internally to get budget approval to buy dozens of Ellacoya or Sandvine boxes - prove to management that they had congestion, how much, when, and whether the DPI boxes would help enough to justify the expenditure.<br><br>In the nearly 2 years since Bell began throttling, given that Bell alleges that they are still having problems, it would appear yet again that Bell's network planning and upgrade process is still irretrievably f*cked.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22824117</guid>
<pubDate>Thu, 06 Aug 2009 10:10:10 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22817807</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1652067"><b>MaynardKrebs</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  freejazz_RdJ <A HREF="/useremail/u/1627906"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>Is anybody missing the fact that 14% or 16% of users using 27% and 29% of a finite resource is inequitable if the balance of users are sacrificing (by being throttled without MLPPP/VPN/SSH workarounds) their speeds in the name of equity? This kind of inequitable distribution wouldn't be tolerated with water from a common aquifer, school funding or all manner of things, why is it any more fair in this context? <br><br>It's also clear that either throttling P2P isn't working and/or P2P isn't the major source of consumption and/or MLPPP/SSH/VPN are effective countermeasures. Perhaps the move to a per-endpoint model which would basically even these numbers out, much to the chagrin of what appears to be the high-usage client base of the wholesale customers, would be a net benefit to Bell. However, off peak, this would still allow un-even usage by wholesale clients which is fine by me... unused capacity at one point in time can't be saved for later, so make full use of it.<br> </div>The reality is that customer needs differ. The milquetoasts who are Sympatico customers are mostly e-mail checkers and casual surfers. <br><br>Customers of independent ISP's have different needs and usage patterns, and have gravitated to the independents to fulfill those needs. Bell doesn't want that type of 'customer' on their books, but they also know that type of customer WILL sign-up with an independent ISP. When Bell commits to selling a GAS link, they know damn well that the link will be heavily utilized.<br><br>It's no different than the POTS network - many people don't make any calls on a gven day, but those who have teenage girls or who have had a tragedy in their family (just to pick two examples - one steady-state and one transient) will be burning up the electrons at a fast and furious rate. Bell plans for this in POTS and doesn't bitch about it.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22817807</guid>
<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 08:14:11 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22817729</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/248514"><b>mlerner</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  jam_bongo <A HREF="/useremail/u/659803"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br><div class="bquote"><small>said by  Guspaz <A HREF="/useremail/u/510249"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A>  :</small><br><br>27/14 = 1.9% bandwidth used per % user share<br>29/16 = 1.8% bandwidth used per % user share<br><br>During the period, wholesaler bandwidth per-user was reduced by roughly 6%<br><br>Bell's essentially misrepresenting the figures.<br> </div>in other words the Exaflood isn't coming?<br> </div>Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps they're only looking at specific links instead of the network as a whole, they did mention ATM links as being heavily congested but then that throws off their stats completely because they're looking at specific traffic and not the traffic on the entire aggregation network.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22817729</guid>
<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 07:44:34 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22817295</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/659803"><b>jam_bongo</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  Guspaz <A HREF="/useremail/u/510249"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>27/14 = 1.9% bandwidth used per % user share<br>29/16 = 1.8% bandwidth used per % user share<br><br>During the period, wholesaler bandwidth per-user was reduced by roughly 6%<br><br>Bell's essentially misrepresenting the figures.<br> </div>in other words the Exaflood isn't coming?]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22817295</guid>
<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 02:03:59 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22817141</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/510249"><b>Guspaz</b></A> : 27/14 = 1.9% bandwidth used per % user share<br>29/16 = 1.8% bandwidth used per % user share<br><br>During the period, wholesaler bandwidth per-user was reduced by roughly 6%<br><br>Bell's essentially misrepresenting the figures.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22817141</guid>
<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 01:03:27 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22816521</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/0"><b>anon</b></A> : Ya, I was noticing that in their math too, how there was a downward trend in wholesale usage. <br><br>I guess the big question is, has congestion yet been proven? I've expect to see minute by minute usage curves amongst major data transit points, and to see hard clips for evidence of actual link saturation. Such evidence would then need to be further analyzed to see if it is actually significant for the user or not, but without the hard clips on the curves, congestion simply is not present. ]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22816521</guid>
<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 22:43:06 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22816111</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/659803"><b>jam_bongo</b></A> : is there much detail behind these numbers? (is it a true sum or a manipulated average taken from a sample?) <br><br>edit*<br><br>another question is there any available data for hour by hour peaks? Are we to asume that in May 2009 bandwidth usage was sustained to 29% of the network for the entire period of 4pm to 2 am? ]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22816111</guid>
<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 21:26:20 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22816083</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1591150"><b>otty</b></A> : "As of May 2009, these numbers have increased..." - Bell<br><br>Actually if 14% of total users were wholesale users in 2008, and they used 27% of the total usage of wholesle/retail combined, that is LESS per wholesale user now that 16% of total users using 29% of total usage in May 2009. <br><br>The wholesale/retail usage discrepency PER USER has decreased from December 2008 to May 2009. <br><br>The only thing that has increased is wholesale subscribers.<br><br>The fact that wholesale users are using less per user suggests that more mainstream consumers are now turning away from Bell and towards alternatives at an ever increasing rate  :p]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22816083</guid>
<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 21:22:02 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22816073</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/248514"><b>mlerner</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  freejazz_RdJ <A HREF="/useremail/u/1627906"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>Mlerner, you make points that are valid, if only on the surface in some cases.<br><br>-The increased usage potentially caused by ADSL2 tiers offered by Bell retail makes no difference. The stat is that of all the usage in the network, wholesale customer consumer nearly twice as much bandwidth in % terms than they represent in actual % of connections. There is no need to consider the sync speed in this figure, if anything, that would further prove Bell's case: "Even with our 10Mbps+ speeds, wholesale customers still use twice the bandwidth on the network than they represent by % of customers"<br><br>-The AHSSPI costs are paid by ISP's. But what does the AHSSPI include? From what I can tell, no fixed amount of capacity beyond the port at the POI. It's not like when a new AHSSPI is added there is 1Gbps of new ether distributed to all of that ISP's clients in each of the wire centres. How do would you distribute this capacity to each CO?<br><br>And by per-endpoint, I mean per DSL loop. It would be a little silly if I could circumvent a comcast-like fairness system by creating multiple PPPoE connections over 1 physical DSL line to get X time the bandwidth up to my physical DSL line's capacity. For example, I'm a big user and throttled to 1Mb/s because it's busy based on the "comcast" systems. I create 5 PPPoE sessions to allow me to get 5Mb/s. This is why it would have to be per dsl loop.<br> </div>Yes but customer speeds do play an impact in the stats especially since they claim the congestion is the in the aggregation network. ALL customer traffic passes through the aggregation network. Granted these stats are recorded on an average basis but if 20% of customers were on 5 mbps sustained for a period of 24 hours and then the next 24 hours they were on 10 mbps, you better believe you'd see more usage on the aggregation network. This is the same aggregation network linking wholesale and retail to the different endpoints on the Bell network. If they don't upgrade to accommodate the usage that affects the capacity of the network.<br><br>Now as per the AHSSPI you can read it yourself. &raquo;<A HREF="http://www.bce.ca/en/aboutbce/regulatoryinformation/tarrifs/index.php/ItemLevel.asp?Tariff=GT%20%20%20&Part=%20%20%205" >www.bce.ca/en/aboutbce/regulator&middot;&middot;&middot;0%20%205</A> Item 5410<br><br>Notice it only mentions "burstable". Now burstable in the bandwidth world means "up to" yes but not to the extent that the network is 110% oversold that you can be artificially limited at peak times regardless of whether the capacity is available or not. Furthermore it perfectly lays out the available capacity options. <br><br>Now if a tier one provider gave you burstable but then proceeded to set artificial throttling regardless of usage, would that not be a breach of contract?<br><br>This is no different and as a matter of fact if is that much of a problem Bell Canada should not be selling the service to new clients but they are. For a tier one bandwidth provider who couldn't provide enough bandwidth they wouldn't be selling connections to new customers without ensuring there was adequate capacity. If the aggregation network is the problem they need to upgrade plain and simple.<br><br>Now what does this per-endpoint thing have anything to do with this? Bell provides 5 Mbps to wholesale customers, customer is supposed to get 5 Mbps. That is the endpoint speed.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22816073</guid>
<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 21:19:08 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22815872</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1627906"><b>freejazz_RdJ</b></A> : Mlerner, you make points that are valid, if only on the surface in some cases.<br><br>-The increased usage potentially caused by ADSL2 tiers offered by Bell retail makes no difference. The stat is that of all the usage in the network, wholesale customer consumer nearly twice as much bandwidth in % terms than they represent in actual % of connections. There is no need to consider the sync speed in this figure, if anything, that would further prove Bell's case: "Even with our 10Mbps+ speeds, wholesale customers still use twice the bandwidth on the network than they represent by % of customers"<br><br>-The AHSSPI costs are paid by ISP's. But what does the AHSSPI include? From what I can tell, no fixed amount of capacity beyond the port at the POI. It's not like when a new AHSSPI is added there is 1Gbps of new ether distributed to all of that ISP's clients in each of the wire centres. How do would you distribute this capacity to each CO?<br><br>And by per-endpoint, I mean per DSL loop. It would be a little silly if I could circumvent a comcast-like fairness system by creating multiple PPPoE connections over 1 physical DSL line to get X time the bandwidth up to my physical DSL line's capacity. For example, I'm a big user and throttled to 1Mb/s because it's busy based on the "comcast" systems. I create 5 PPPoE sessions to allow me to get 5Mb/s. This is why it would have to be per dsl loop.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22815872</guid>
<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 20:35:56 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22815836</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/248514"><b>mlerner</b></A> : You're missing the entire point, finite does not mean artificial limitation. If Bell kept up maintaining capacity the figures wouldn't be that skewed in the first place. How the hell is wholesale consuming more if speeds aren't going up? Who's to say the increase in usage isn't to do with ADSL2 tiers Bell is selling? Furthermore the providers are paying for transit links, it's only natural that capacity increase = increased usage. What do you mean by per-endpoint? wholesale providers are paying for the AHSPPI + ~$20 per customer. How can they charge more?]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22815836</guid>
<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 20:28:56 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22815781</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1627906"><b>freejazz_RdJ</b></A> : Is anybody missing the fact that 14% or 16% of users using 27% and 29% of a finite resource is inequitable if the balance of users are sacrificing (by being throttled without MLPPP/VPN/SSH workarounds) their speeds in the name of equity? This kind of inequitable distribution wouldn't be tolerated with water from a common aquifer, school funding or all manner of things, why is it any more fair in this context? <br><br>It's also clear that either throttling P2P isn't working and/or P2P isn't the major source of consumption and/or MLPPP/SSH/VPN are effective countermeasures. Perhaps the move to a per-endpoint model which would basically even these numbers out, much to the chagrin of what appears to be the high-usage client base of the wholesale customers, would be a net benefit to Bell. However, off peak, this would still allow un-even usage by wholesale clients which is fine by me... unused capacity at one point in time can't be saved for later, so make full use of it.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22815781</guid>
<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 20:19:56 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22815421</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/248514"><b>mlerner</b></A> : Alright JF you have to call out the BS and hope the CRTC wakes up. This is beyond piss poor network management, this is stupidity.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22815421</guid>
<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 19:10:13 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22815408</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1652067"><b>MaynardKrebs</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  nigrunze <A HREF="/useremail/u/1621129"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br><div class="bquote"><small>said by  jfmezei <A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A>  :</small><br><br>December 2008, consuming 27% of the bandwidth during peak periods even though they were only 14% of the total base of end-users.  As of May 2009, these numbers have increased and wholesale users are now consuming 29% of the bandwidth during peak periods even though they are only 16% of the total base of end-users.  This amount is now more than double from their consumption levels prior to deployment of traffic shaping even though their share of the total base has not really changed.</div>They're "complaining" about 29%?<br> </div>What they are saying is that they operate their network within 10-15% of peak capacity at all times. This is piss poor network management and capacity planning. No wonder the 'Michael Jackson' event sent their network down the drain.<br><br>If you did this within any major corporation, eg. the Royal Bank, you'd be fired on the spot.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22815408</guid>
<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 19:08:37 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22815188</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1621129"><b>nigrunze</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  jfmezei <A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>December 2008, consuming 27% of the bandwidth during peak periods even though they were only 14% of the total base of end-users.  As of May 2009, these numbers have increased and wholesale users are now consuming 29% of the bandwidth during peak periods even though they are only 16% of the total base of end-users.  This amount is now more than double from their consumption levels prior to deployment of traffic shaping even though their share of the total base has not really changed.</div>They're "complaining" about 29%?]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22815188</guid>
<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 18:36:06 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22815167</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><b>jfmezei</b></A> : Here is the "updated" paragraph 18:<br><br>18.&#9;The Companies submit that the Applicants have failed to raise substantial doubt as to the correctness of Decision 2008-108.  Furthermore, consistent with the Commission's finding in Decision 2008-108 that GAS customers during peak periods would contribute to the network congestion that exists in the Companies' networks , the Companies stated in their response to The Companies(CRTC)4Dec08-9 PN 2008-19  that wholesale end-users were, in <br><br>December 2008, consuming 27% of the bandwidth during peak periods even though they were only 14% of the total base of end-users.  As of May 2009, these numbers have increased and wholesale users are now consuming 29% of the bandwidth during peak periods even though they are only 16% of the total base of end-users.  This amount is now more than double from their consumption levels prior to deployment of traffic shaping even though their share of the total base has not really changed.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22815167</guid>
<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 18:32:23 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22811121</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><b>jfmezei</b></A> : Bell was told to release that information on August 4th. (that is today, tuesday). Those of us involved with the R&V have until August 10th to comment on those numbers.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22811121</guid>
<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 02:04:33 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22810733</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1591150"><b>otty</b></A> : Thanks so musch for the clarification MGK.<br><br>"...it would not be appropriate to maintain the confidentiality of similar information filed in confidence at paragraph 18 of Bell Canada et al.&#8217;s 22 June 2009 comments on CAIP et al,&#8217;s Part VII application, as such information is not consistently treated as confidential by Bell Canada."<br><br>Ok so this info has not yet been released but the CRTC has now required its release. When ca we expect it?<br><br>Hopefully this will catch Bell in a blatent lie.<br><br>Bell lawyers are VERY good at spinning this stuff however...]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22810733</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 23:28:48 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22798623</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1652067"><b>MaynardKrebs</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  otty <A HREF="/useremail/u/1591150"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>PLease clarify.<br> </div>During the hearing in July, Bell spouted off some stats - in public - which dealt with the traffic that alleged p2p users who were independent isp customers generated.<br><br>The Commission asked Bell to clarify their statement during the hearing but the Bell lawyer didn't have all the info at his fingertips, and so an undertaking was given to the CRTC to provide that data in the final submission.<br><br>Bell did provide the data in their final submission but did so "in confidence" - meaning that, of course, the data was not subject to analysis or challenge by anyone - as JF pointed out, if it isn't challenged then the CRTC must accept it as 'fact'.<br><br>CAIP et. al. filed a petition (here  &raquo;<A HREF="http://www.crtc.gc.ca/public/partvii/2008/8646/c12_200815400/1248477.pdf" >www.crtc.gc.ca/public/partvii/20&middot;&middot;&middot;8477.pdf</A> ) with the CRTC almost immediately upon finding out that the data was submitted 'in confidence' to force the public release of that data. The CRTC letter/order JF posted above is the direct result of that petition.<br><br>Now anyone who participated in the R&V will be able to get Bell's stats, analyze them, and discuss their meaning with the CRTC.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22798623</guid>
<pubDate>Sat, 01 Aug 2009 10:35:38 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22798000</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1591150"><b>otty</b></A> : Ok too drun and tired to review links right now but: <br><br>Is a "process letter" a final decision or a temporary setting of the status quo?<br><br>I sort of flinched when I saw this and said "holy shi*t after all those hearings on throttling they just say this and it's over".<br><br>I think my knee jerk was too soon and too easy, but that's what I'vve come to expect from the CRTC (except the quick decision).<br><br>PLease clarify.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22798000</guid>
<pubDate>Sat, 01 Aug 2009 02:31:46 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22797930</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><b>jfmezei</b></A> : On July 31, the Commission issued a new process letter for the Review and Vary of the 2008-108 decision (granting Bell the right to throttle competitors).<br><br>Some highlights:<br><br> <blockquote><small>quote:</small><hr>Commission staff notes that at paragraph 18 of its 22 June 2009 comments on CAIP et al.&#146;s <br>Part VII application Bell Canada et al. provided information related to the bandwidth <br>consumed by wholesale end-users in confidence. As CAIP et al. noted in its 24 July 2009 <br>letter, Bell Canada subsequently placed similar information on the public record of the PN <br>2008-19 proceeding.  <br><br>Commission staff considers that in light of Bell Canada et al.&#146;s voluntary public disclosures <br>in the PN 2008-19 proceeding, it would not be appropriate to maintain the confidentiality of <br>similar information filed in confidence at paragraph 18 of Bell Canada et al.&#146;s 22 June 2009 <br>comments on CAIP et al,&#146;s Part VII application, as such information is not consistently <br>treated as confidential by Bell Canada. In this regard, Commission staff considers that the <br>harm likely to result from the disclosure of the information in question does not outweigh the <br>public interest in its disclosure. Therefore, Bell Canada et al. is to provide on the public <br>record the information filed in confidence at paragraph 18 of its 22 June 2009 comments by <br>4 August 2009.  <br> <br>Parties that have commented in the R&V applications proceeding may file additional <br>comments, serving a copy on other parties, related solely to the information provided by <br>Bell Canada et al. by 10 August 2009.  <br><br><hr></blockquote><br><br>In short: during the R&V process, Bell submitted stuff in confidence. During the Public Hearings, they publically released information that had been made private in the R&V.<br><br>Paragraph 18 of Bell's R&V submission stated:<br> <blockquote><small>quote:</small><hr>18.&#9;The Companies submit that the Applicants have failed to raise substantial doubt as to the correctness of Decision 2008-108.  Furthermore, consistent with the Commission's finding in Decision 2008-108 that GAS customers during peak periods would contribute to the network congestion that exists in the Companies' networks , the Companies stated in their response to The Companies(CRTC)4Dec08-9 PN 2008-19  that wholesale end-users were, in <br><br>December 2008, consuming &#9;# of the bandwidth during peak periods even though they were only &#9;# of the total base of end-users.  As of May 2009, these numbers have increased and wholesale users are now consuming &#9;# of the bandwidth during peak periods even though they are only &#9;# of the total base of end-users.  This amount is now more than double from their consumption levels prior to deployment of traffic shaping even though their share of the total base has not really changed.<br><hr></blockquote><br><br>The R&V file is at:<br>&raquo;<A HREF="http://crtc.gc.ca/partvii/eng/2009/8662/p8_200907727.htm" >crtc.gc.ca/partvii/eng/2009/8662&middot;&middot;&middot;7727.htm</A><br>and<br>&raquo;<A HREF="http://crtc.gc.ca/partvii/eng/2009/8662/v42_200907826.htm" >crtc.gc.ca/partvii/eng/2009/8662&middot;&middot;&middot;7826.htm</A> (they focused on the first one)]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22797930</guid>
<pubDate>Sat, 01 Aug 2009 02:01:06 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22725271</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/248514"><b>mlerner</b></A> : Well now that is on public record, if they change it again we can challenge them and hopefully get a verdict faster.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22725271</guid>
<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 16:21:57 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22724801</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1000066"><b>mazhurg</b></A> : Difference is? Not on the determination time-line but what makes it a type 1 vs 2?<br><small>--<br>"Vision without funds....<br>       is a hallucination"</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22724801</guid>
<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 15:07:22 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22724755</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><b>jfmezei</b></A> : Now I am confused.... They just said that it was Type 2, now they say it is type 1.<br><br> <blockquote><small>quote:</small><hr> <br>Dear Sirs: <br> <br>Re: Part VII Applications Requesting a Review and Vary of Telecom <br>Decision CRTC 2008-108  <br> <br> <br>Further to Commission staff&#146;s letter dated 15 July 2009 regarding the time by which the <br>Commission expects to issue an interim or final determination in the above-noted <br>applications: Commission staff notes that, consistent with the service standard for a <br>Type 1 application, the Commission expects to issue an interim or final determination <br>with respect to these applications within four months of the close-of-record. <br> <br>Yours sincerely, <br> <br> <br>Original signed by  <br> <br>Yvan Davidson, <br>Senior Manager,  <br>Competition, Costing & Tariffs <br><br><hr></blockquote>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22724755</guid>
<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 15:01:45 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22718990</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1656638"><b>Jazdi</b></A> : Time of day billing is a good idea, the goal of which should be to flatten out the daily usage graph so as to be making the most effective use of the network's capacity. Unfortunately, none of the current UBB offerings have this effect. With a 60gb cap, I have no incentive to not use all those 60gb during peak hours. Instead, it would seem appropriate if a somewhat lower cap was offered during peak hours, while leaving off-peak hours completely unmetered. ]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22718990</guid>
<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 16:08:59 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22718568</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><b>jfmezei</b></A> : Consider that ISTOP had a plan where you have unlimited during overnight hours, and limited t 100gigs (I think) during the day/evening.<br><br>So it wasn't so much the cost of bits changing during the day, but rather that you had unmetered during the overnight, and metered during the day. Nobody complained about that. The package was primarily 100gigs, with the overnight-unlimited being icing on the cake.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22718568</guid>
<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 15:01:23 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22716027</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1627906"><b>freejazz_RdJ</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  jfmezei <A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>It isn't stupid.  Yes, there is a way to spin it to look stupid.<br><br>But from a network instrastructure, the guy at 512kbps downloading 5gigs of data may take 5 days to do this, but during this time, he won't strain the network much.<br><br>The guy at 5mbps may only take a couple of hours to download the same, but during those hours, he will put a much greater load on the network.<br><br>10 customers at 512kbps downloading a large file at the same time take the same bandwidth as 1 customer downloading the same file at 5mbps.<br> </div>JF: Isn't this saying you're looking towards a time time-of-day pricing flavor of UBB? Or one in which the cost per bit increases as the user places a greater and greater strain on the network and the overall demand on the network increases?<br><br>I haven't read all the submissions yet, but I'll do so tomorrow on my clot-inducing Halifax-Toronto-Vancouver flight. Lots of time to kill since the content on AC's VOD is pretty weak.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22716027</guid>
<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 01:57:10 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22714031</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1609880"><b>WaitForGodot</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  MaynardKrebs <A HREF="/useremail/u/1652067"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>And then there is one, which for political reasons may be delayed for 5-6 years.<br> </div>... maybe till after the next Government is elected. :D]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22714031</guid>
<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 18:36:22 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22713020</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1652067"><b>MaynardKrebs</b></A> : And then there is one, which for political reasons may be delayed for 5-6 years.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22713020</guid>
<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:45:00 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22711961</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/248514"><b>mlerner</b></A> : Has any of these proceedings *ever* been given type 1? I mean I know they have to do research and such but up to 8 months?]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22711961</guid>
<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 12:56:16 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22711933</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><b>jfmezei</b></A> : CRTC has issued a policy on when they will give their answer to the Thorttling.<br><br>(long interruption due to Hydro Qu&eacute;bec power outage)<br><br>Dear Sirs:<br><br>Re: Part VII Applications Requesting a Review and Vary of Telecom Decision CRTC 2008-108<br><br>In Service standards for the disposition of telecommunications applications, Telecom Circular CRTC 2006-11, 7 December 2006, the Commission stated that it would categorize Part VII applications into two types: <br><br>Type 1 applications that generally do not involve multiple parties or raise significant policy issues and Type 2 applications that do involve multiple parties and/or raise significant policy issues<br><br>The Commission also adopted the following service standards for Part VII applications:<br><br>&#149; Type 1 Part VII applications &#150; 90 percent of determinations to be issued on an interim or final basis within four months of the close-of-record; and<br><br>&#149; Type 2 Part VII applications &#150; 85 percent of determinations to be issued on an interim or final basis within eight months of the close-of-record.<br>- 2 -<br><br>The Commission stated that it would inform applicants, by letter, within 10 days of the end of the comment period for applications, whether the application is considered to be a Type 1 or Type 2 application, and the applicable service standard.<br><br>Commission staff has assessed the above application and considers it to be a Type 2 application. Accordingly, the Commission expects to issue an interim or final determination within eight months of the close-of-record.<br><br>Yours sincerely,<br>Original signed by<br>Yvan Davidson,<br>Senior Manager,<br>Competition, Costing & Tariffs]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22711933</guid>
<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 12:52:27 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22654091</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/854713"><b>ohmer</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  jfmezei <A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>It isn't a question of "pay more get less".<br><br>It is a question of:<br><br>Higher speeds enable downloads of much larger files, so you pay more for those added capabilities.<br><br>You can still download large files are slow speeds, but it will take days/weeks/months to download compared to modern speeds.<br><br>Lets face it, between 5mbps and 100mbps, downloading a web page won't make much of a difference. But downloading a movie, especially HD quality will make a big difference in time needed for the download. So it is normal you would pay more for the 100mbps usage.<br> </div>But the user already pay more to compensate the load on the network (512k profil cost less than a 5m)...  Now you want to let them pay still more but receive less.  You will never convince a majority of subscriber with this.<br><br>There is no deal to have greater speed with less bandwith.  Many Videotron customer complaints about that when Videotron increase speed without increase the caps.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22654091</guid>
<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 14:45:50 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22653593</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><b>jfmezei</b></A> : It isn't a question of "pay more get less".<br><br>It is a question of:<br><br>Higher speeds enable downloads of much larger files, so you pay more for those added capabilities.<br><br>You can still download large files are slow speeds, but it will take days/weeks/months to download compared to modern speeds.<br><br>Lets face it, between 5mbps and 100mbps, downloading a web page won't make much of a difference. But downloading a movie, especially HD quality will make a big difference in time needed for the download. So it is normal you would pay more for the 100mbps usage.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22653593</guid>
<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 12:13:40 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22653567</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/854713"><b>ohmer</b></A> : But for the customer it's : pay more, get less.  You will never be able to make this accepted by customers...]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22653567</guid>
<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 12:05:23 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22653563</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><b>jfmezei</b></A> : It isn't stupid.  Yes, there is a way to spin it to look stupid.<br><br>But from a network instrastructure, the guy at 512kbps downloading 5gigs of data may take 5 days to do this, but during this time, he won't strain the network much.<br><br>The guy at 5mbps may only take a couple of hours to download the same, but during those hours, he will put a much greater load on the network.<br><br>10 customers at 512kbps downloading a large file at the same time take the same bandwidth as 1 customer downloading the same file at 5mbps.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22653563</guid>
<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 12:03:36 EDT</pubDate>
</item>

<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22653524</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/854713"><b>ohmer</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  jfmezei <A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>Also, UBB rates should vary according to line speed. The slower the line, the less congestion you can cause and hence, the lower the UBB rates should be.<br> </div>I don't agree.  Lower profile already cost less.  It's stupid to have a 512kbits line with 200 gig caps while 5mbits have 30gb and pay more... (just an example).]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22653524</guid>
<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 11:46:44 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22653168</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><b>jfmezei</b></A> : UBB for the retail side is probably inevitable.<br><br>But it should be fairly priced, not the punitive fees currently charged by the likes of Videotron.<br><br>Also, UBB rates should vary according to line speed. The slower the line, the less congestion you can cause and hence, the lower the UBB rates should be.<br><br>BUT, on the IP transit side, it is all about capacity, not about usage. And that isn't likely to change. Transit providers need to have enough fibre to support the capacity they sell. If they don't they have congestio problems and they then lose business.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22653168</guid>
<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 09:31:31 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22652334</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1000066"><b>mazhurg</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by mouser :</small><br><br>I liked both submissions, but I have to disagree with the point the CAIP makes in mentioning that UBB being used as an alternative to throttling... that could bite them back in future submissions related to tarrif's<br> </div>UBB in and by itself is not evil. While information itself can (or not) be free, the carrying of that information has a cost. How UBB is implemented defines it's underlying purpose.<br><br>Properly implemented, UBB would recover the cost of delivering information in addition to a reasonable profit for infrastructure modernization along with a reasonable ROI.<br><br>The trick in UBB is that its control must be kept away from those who would most benefit from the temptation of abusing it.<br><small>--<br>"Vision without funds....<br>       is a hallucination"</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22652334</guid>
<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 23:33:46 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22651504</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/0"><b>anon</b></A> : I liked both submissions, but I have to disagree with the point the CAIP makes in mentioning that UBB being used as an alternative to throttling... that could bite them back in future submissions related to tarrif's]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22651504</guid>
<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 20:00:26 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22649237</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1652067"><b>MaynardKrebs</b></A> : Kudos to JF & CAIP.<br><br>JF, excellent disassembly of the Sympatico 'straw man'.<br><br>Also, in your paragraph 32, I would have added that this practice probably an offence under the Criminal Code  .... but that's just me talking.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22649237</guid>
<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 11:18:27 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22649118</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/0"><b>anon</b></A> : Yup. I liked Vaxinations/JF's submission.<br><br>Very easy to read. Very easy to understand. Very good points brought forth.<br><br>I don't see how the CRTC can ignore them (again).<br><br>Very well done.<br><br>It goes a bit deeper and IN YOUR FACE type thing which CAIP's doesn't do (CAIP's is more "reserved/refined").<br><br>I liked it.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 10:55:24 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22648945</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1206349"><b>R0CKY</b></A> : Just finished reading your submission JF.... good work.  Between both submissions, I believe just about everything possible has been covered!]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22648945</guid>
<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 10:04:18 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22648888</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1532716"><b>derekm</b></A> : CAIP's submission is good.  <br><br>The only thing that I would have liked to see is at the end for the CRTC to:<br><br>- Issue an order mandating removal of DPI capabilities from the GAS links<br><br>Throttling is only one aspect of the evils of DPI - while currently it's the most obvious, removal of throttling does not protect our privacy, or protect us from other nasties down the road.  jf touched on this in his submission.<br><br>jf - don't be too hard on yourself - CAIP's submission had a team of people working on it. Without being a paid lobbyist, there is only so much time you can spend. You did well for yourself!]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22648888</guid>
<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 09:39:50 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22648794</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/0"><b>anon</b></A> : TY or posting that JF.<br><br>If anymore come your way, please do post.<br><br>Also, even if you are not happy with your reply (I haven't read it yet, but will now), I think you tried more than anyone else (associations aside) and had a very deep passion in what was pulled on everyone. You were, and are, a voice of a thousand people easy.<br><br>So no matter what, you did your very best to bring it all together and present it on behalf of everyone.<br><br>Be proud and be happy.<br><br>Thanks for all your effort. I for one appreciate what you have done and thank you.<br><br>Reading time now. :)]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22648794</guid>
<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 09:01:28 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22648731</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><b>jfmezei</b></A> : Last night was the deadline for the final comments on the R&V for throttling.<br><br>The CAIP et Al document followed by mine. (not too happy about mine)<div class="borderless"><TABLE WIDTH=95% align=center border=0 CELLPADDING=4"><TR><TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=CENTER BGCOLOR=#000000 nwrap COLSPAN=3 WIDTH=100%><A HREF="/r0/download/1445389~572b62733237bb57791279c632e847e0/2008-108_RV_Reply_2July09FINAL.pdf">2008-108_RV_&middot;&middot;&middot;INAL.pdf</A></TD></TR><TR><TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=CENTER BGCOLOR=#000000 nwrap COLSPAN=3 WIDTH=100%><A HREF="/r0/download/1445390~f25d06fcfee813f8c1d16ddaaa08843d/vaxination_r%26v_final.pdf">vaxination_r&middot;&middot;&middot;inal.pdf</A></TD></TABLE></div>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22648731</guid>
<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 08:21:48 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22626730</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><b>jfmezei</b></A> : Am working on the Bell reply. It may have been short, but when one reads it carefully, it is quite smart.<br><br>Hey Mr Deadpool, if you speak to your buddy Mr Bibic, tell him that I think he has earned his salary at Bell. ]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22626730</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 03:45:56 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22626389</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><b>jfmezei</b></A> : There is a newcomer to the review and vary. Didn't get a copy by email.<br><br>And CRTC had added the CFPTA to the web site and it seems to be gone now. <br><br>The CISP submission doesn't discuss throttling at all. However, it does provide soem advise on allowing ISPs access to the CO where they can connect to the region's DSLAMS and which would then remove from the ILEC the need to "traffic manage" the network because independant,s traffic would leave Bell's network at the CO.<div class="borderless"><TABLE WIDTH=95% align=center border=0 CELLPADDING=4"><TR><TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=CENTER BGCOLOR=#000000 nwrap COLSPAN=3 WIDTH=100%><A HREF="/r0/download/1443991~609c21ac9f253d42a5c7443e0180442e/090622-CISP-Comments-letter.pdf">090622-CISP-&middot;&middot;&middot;tter.pdf</A></TD></TR><TR><TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=CENTER BGCOLOR=#000000 nwrap COLSPAN=3 WIDTH=100%><A HREF="/r0/download/1443992~5ae0705c00900ad709b83514c3b188d9/090622-CISP-Comments-ATTACHMENT.pdf">090622-CISP-&middot;&middot;&middot;MENT.pdf</A></TD></TR><TR><TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=CENTER BGCOLOR=#000000 nwrap COLSPAN=3 WIDTH=100%><A HREF="/r0/download/1443993~2841ea650d4b094ded0a03a245493b4b/090622-CISP-ATTACHMENT%20Appendix%201%20-Evidence-Dr.%20Barnes%20-%20Essenti">090622-CISP-&middot;&middot;&middot; Essenti</A><br>very log file name, .pdf may be missing<br><small>(090622-CISP-ATTACHMENT Appendix 1 -Evidence-Dr. Barnes - Essential Services for)</small></TD></TABLE></div>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22626389</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 00:19:57 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22609514</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/0"><b>anon</b></A> : Your postings have made it on the Dr. Geist website and p2pnet:<br><br>&raquo;<A HREF="http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/4082/196/" >www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/4082/196/</A><br><br>&raquo;<A HREF="http://www.p2pnet.net/story/23941" >www.p2pnet.net/story/23941</A><br><br>Thanks for keeping us all in the loop.<br><br><i>P2PNet points to a submission from the Canadian Film and Television Production Association that argues that Bell's throttling practices unduly disadvantage P2P content, P2P apps, and end-users accessing legal P2P content.</i>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22609514</guid>
<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:30:03 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22596157</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/0"><b>anon</b></A> : As per the Bell's redacted reply at paragraph 18 of "# of the total base of end-users"<br><br>I would like to know what they are including in the "total base of end-users". Does it include all their Internet services or only broadband through the copper fed CO facilities? Does it include or exclude dial-up, wifi, smart phone clients? Is it only residential or does it include business accounts? If it is "total" base, I would think that some of the large corporations that Bell provides for would consume huge amounts of data transfer.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22596157</guid>
<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 11:04:51 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22595069</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/510249"><b>Guspaz</b></A> : Wow. Misery acquaints a man with strange bedfellows. The television and film industry, against throttling of P2P...]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22595069</guid>
<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 03:45:25 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22594647</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/0"><b>anon</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  jfmezei <A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>I am disapointed by Bell's submission. I was expecting it to have a lot more meat.<br><br>It makes me wonder if Bell has admitted defeat, or whether there is one sentence in there that will be key and force CRTC to continue to support Bell. <br> </div>Stall tactic.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22594647</guid>
<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 00:25:17 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22594627</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/0"><b>anon</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  jfmezei <A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>Comments from the Canadian Film and Television Production Association (CFTPA).<br> </div>Psst, the "extension" (*.pdf) is missing (people should be able to figure this out... but just in case).]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22594627</guid>
<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 00:19:25 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22594589</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><b>jfmezei</b></A> : Comments from the Canadian Film and Television Production Association (CFTPA).<br><br>The second attachement contains a smaller file name that has the .PDF extension which appears to have been trunctated when the first one was uploaded to this DSLR software.<div class="borderless"><TABLE WIDTH=95% align=center border=0 CELLPADDING=4"><TR><TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=CENTER BGCOLOR=#000000 nwrap COLSPAN=3 WIDTH=100%><A HREF="/r0/download/1441994~0cd89e744c1c3e016ae9f83030209ce1/Part%20VII%20Application%20-%20CAIP%20and%20Vaccination%20Informatique%20-%20FINAL">Part VII App&middot;&middot;&middot; - FINAL</A><br><small>(Part VII Application - CAIP and Vaccination Informatique - FINAL.pdf)</small></TD></TR><TR><TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=CENTER BGCOLOR=#000000 nwrap COLSPAN=3 WIDTH=100%><A HREF="/r0/download/1441998~60cdd142c47391b7bfd55f76129c2a3d/Part%20VII%20Application%20-%20CFTPA.pdf">Part VII App&middot;&middot;&middot;FTPA.pdf</A></TD></TABLE></div>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22594589</guid>
<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 00:09:47 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22594532</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><b>jfmezei</b></A> : I am disapointed by Bell's submission. I was expecting it to have a lot more meat.<br><br>It makes me wonder if Bell has admitted defeat, or whether there is one sentence in there that will be key and force CRTC to continue to support Bell.<br><br>Perhaps it is the sentence(s) that was "abridged" out of the public record: "If you force us to stop throttling, we won't invite you to golf tournaments anymore"<br><br>:-) :-) :-) :-) :-)<br><br>Seriously though Bell's overly simplistic response worries me. ]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22594532</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 23:57:44 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22594244</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/0"><b>anon</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  R0CKY <A HREF="/useremail/u/1206349"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>Oish.... Ok, I'm done commenting on this... <br> </div>No. Let it out!<br><br>;)<br><br>+1 for Distributel. Well done.<br><br>Now to read the rest...]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22594244</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 23:05:28 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22594250</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><b>jfmezei</b></A> : The submission from the Union des Consommateurs.<br><br>It is in french.<br><br>Update:<br><br>First part is about the Charter of Rights and Freedoms which the Union alleges is violated by crippling P2P communications.<div class="borderless"><TABLE WIDTH=95% align=center border=0 CELLPADDING=4"><TR><TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=CENTER BGCOLOR=#000000 nwrap COLSPAN=3 WIDTH=100%><A HREF="/r0/download/1441971~5beb5c4723800a262d777a2a912b464b/090622-Observations%20UC%20demande%20de%20revision%202008108.pdf">090622-Obser&middot;&middot;&middot;8108.pdf</A></TD></TABLE></div>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22594250</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 22:55:18 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22594144</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1206349"><b>R0CKY</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  jfmezei <A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>Bell's submission. (I created a .PDF from their proprietary microsoft document).<br> </div>Interesting/Funny statements made in sections 18 & 21...<br><br>This smells of a bully trying to say, no take-backs, double stampsies!  LOL<br><br>They have bad arguments and feel out of arrogance that they shouldn't have to justify how they've abused their responsibility as a Monopoly and errors in judgement could have been made by the CRTC!  <br><br>Oish.... Ok, I'm done commenting on this... for now.<br><br>Rocky<br><small>--<br>TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.<br><br>Authorized TSI employee ( &raquo;<A HREF="/faq/teksavvy">TekSavvy FAQ</A> &raquo;<A HREF="/faq/14672#14672">Official support in the forum</A> )<br></small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22594144</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 22:31:53 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22593884</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><b>jfmezei</b></A> : Campaign for democratic media's submission: (by CIPPIC)<div class="borderless"><TABLE WIDTH=95% align=center border=0 CELLPADDING=4"><TR><TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=CENTER BGCOLOR=#000000 nwrap COLSPAN=3 WIDTH=100%><A HREF="/r0/download/1441955~c36e8253d88791ce5785a1159a1e612c/PartVII-CDM_Comments-CRTC-2008-108-RV-22June2009-Attachment.pdf">PartVII-CDM_&middot;&middot;&middot;ment.pdf</A></TD></TABLE></div>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22593884</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 21:36:22 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22593392</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><b>jfmezei</b></A> : Ok, after first read:<br><br>BASICALLY:<br><br>Bell doesn't really address the arguments of the 2 applicants, it argues that the R&V is not justified and that 2008-108 was legitimate and rightly gives Bell the right to thorttle.<br><br>There are a couple of areas where I can see Bell scroring a few points, but those can be challenged fairly easily.<br><br>This document is not very strong in my opinion, but it could be that Bell has already invited the CRTC commissioners to a number of golf tournaments and doesn't feel it necessary to write up documents.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22593392</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 19:53:49 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22593300</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><b>jfmezei</b></A> : Bell's submission. (I created a .PDF from their proprietary microsoft document).<div class="borderless"><TABLE WIDTH=95% align=center border=0 CELLPADDING=4"><TR><TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=CENTER BGCOLOR=#000000 nwrap COLSPAN=3 WIDTH=100%><A HREF="/r0/download/1441922~33e6bd5dab884e217da71d06129d3078/090622_CAIP_R%26V_Comments-ABR.pdf">090622_CAIP_&middot;&middot;&middot;-ABR.pdf</A></TD></TABLE></div>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22593300</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 19:34:52 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22592648</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1206349"><b>R0CKY</b></A> : Was a good submission by Distributel!<br><br>They're generally a very quiet group so I hope this gets recognized by the CRTC.... <br><br>When someone normally works with the system "as is" until it finally has no choice but to speak up someone should ask why!<br><br>....this is one of those cases!<br><small>--<br>TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.<br><br>Authorized TSI employee ( &raquo;<A HREF="/faq/teksavvy">TekSavvy FAQ</A> &raquo;<A HREF="/faq/14672#14672">Official support in the forum</A> )<br></small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22592648</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 17:18:13 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22592535</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/589037"><b>diskace</b></A> : Very good ! Thank you so much JF<br><small>--<br>Electronic Box Inc.</small>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22592535</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 16:58:20 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22592367</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><b>jfmezei</b></A> : Distributel has filed comments. Have not had the time to fully read them yet, but they support my (and that of CAIPs) applications.<div class="borderless"><TABLE WIDTH=95% align=center border=0 CELLPADDING=4"><TR><TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=CENTER BGCOLOR=#000000 nwrap COLSPAN=3 WIDTH=100%><A HREF="/r0/download/1441871~c7b45f07b800a224977b3d8d5a6569cc/09%2006%2022%20Distributel%20Comments%20on%20CAIP-Vaxination%20R%26V%20App.pdf">09 06 22 Dis&middot;&middot;&middot; App.pdf</A></TD></TABLE></div>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22592367</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 16:26:16 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22585963</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><b>jfmezei</b></A> : Just a heads-up.<br><br>The R&V for the GAS throttling 2008-108 decision has a deadline for comments coming this monday (22-Jun-2009 23:59:59.9999999997)<br><br>This deadline applies to both general comments as well as comments from interested parties such as Bell and probably other telcos, and folks like Sandvine.<br><br>Hopefully, there will be other independant ISPs who file something.<br><br>Unless the process changes, Bell will not have another say in the matter. So it will not have an opportunity to reply to yoiur comments if they appear after Bell has made its submission.<br><br>Unless the process changes, the 2 co-leaders (the CAIp group and myself) will then file separate submissions no later than July 2nd at 23:59:59.9999996 )<br><br>During the day on Monday, we should be getting email copies of the various submissions.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22585963</guid>
<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 05:58:26 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22490524</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><b>jfmezei</b></A> : >The simplest method of doing so, is to make the processes *SO* <br>>incomprehensible, *SO* intertwined, *SO* lengthy as to:<br><br>Ah, but here, we have a case of a few people having gone through the text of the rules and procedures and found the way to challenge the CRTC decision. And having read the text myself, I can tell you that it really isn't that complicated. In fact, the Telecom Act is not very "legalese" and is quite readable by anyone who understands telecommunications.<br><br>For TN7181, Bell has essentially asked to double the rates by charging for both capacity and metered usage. It is part of the CRTC's bureaucratic duties to ask Bell to justify this significant increase in rates by proving that its costs to operate GAS have recently doubled.<br><br>But what the CRTC *really* needs to do is to step back and take a "big picture" look at all of what Bell is asking for and not wanting to give. Bell wants to thorttle, Bell wants to charge exhorbitant per gig rates, Bell doesn't want to give us access to modern DSLAMs, relegating us to unupgraded "legacy" equipment and network. <br><br>This does not lead to a competitive environment when Bell is rebuilding its last mile and not giving competitive access to it, yet, wants to throttle competitors who aren't even on the same network anymore.<br><br>Throttling is all about Bell being unable to provide the bandwidth that it sells to ISPs. This is due to insufficient investment in the GAS infrastructure. While some ISPs brag about all their GigE links, many others are still stuck with ancient ATM links  because the COs they are attached to  don't support GigE service yet.<br><br>In TN7181, Bell asks to double the rates, still throttle and not give increase in speeds. The text of the 7181 request mentions the acquired right to throttle thanks to 2008-108. <br><br>So, if the cost analysis shows that Bell gets sufficient revenus with the current structure and should have plenty of money to upgrade equipment to modern standards and provide the full bandwidth that is being purchased by ISPs, then there would not be any need to throttle the ISPs.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22490524</guid>
<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 15:48:13 EDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22487889</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1551629"><b>globus999</b></A> : Yur missing the point. Look, it *IS* simple. When you are in a bureaucratic organization *AND* you fully respond to "superiors" in you chain of command, you *DO NOT*, under any circumstances, make your superiors look fool. Your job is NOT to fulfil your job description but to keep your bosses happy (call them the Telco/Government Industrial Complex - borrowing from Eisenhower). The simplest method of doing so, is to make the processes *SO* incomprehensible, *SO* intertwined, *SO* lengthy as to:<br><br>1 - Confuse the heck out of everybody<br>2 - Give rise to a gazillion questions that will clogg the minds<br>3 - More importantly: provide "plausible deniability" for the upper-ups, a series of layered CYI escape hatches for all and, if all fails, cover your own ass.<br><br>The issue of "cost studies" falls squarely within this tactic.<br><br>OF COURSE "cost studies" have no blinkig *RATIONAL* reason to be required for this. HOWEVER, they are perfect for steps 1, 2 and 3.<br><br>I said it before, continually, and I will say it again. We are *DOOMED*. The CRTC has been fully paid for in advance. We have no chance in HELL to get anything even close to fair decision out of them for the foreseeable future (aka, until hell freezes over).<br><br>My two cents.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 09:05:37 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22487805</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/646748"><b>Angelo_</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  mlerner <A HREF="/useremail/u/248514"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>They don't have to fudge the numbers, the CRTC will just accept it as is.<br> </div>LOL i somehow belive this]]></description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 08:38:36 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22487686</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/248514"><b>mlerner</b></A> : They don't have to fudge the numbers, the CRTC will just accept it as is.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22487686</guid>
<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 08:07:27 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22487549</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/646748"><b>Angelo_</b></A> : theres no point for a cost study.. bell will just fudge the numbers.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 07:09:35 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22485205</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><b>jfmezei</b></A> : Update: The deadline for comments has been moved to June 22nd from June 20th (I had incorrectly stated 30th before).<br><br>CAIPetAl, as well as myself will have until July 2 for the final comments.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 18:41:49 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22482830</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/0"><b>anon</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  jfmezei <A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>...... This is not very different from dial-up days when Bell's busy hour moved to the evening because of dial-up internet suddently changed average call duration and wrecked Bell's capacity models. Yet, Bell reacted by adding sufficient capacity to handle the load.<br><br> </div>Absolutely correct. <br><br>Look at the timeline:<br><br>Independent ISP's corporately, and their users, experienced no capacity issues <b>prior</b> to August/November 2007 when Bell began to throttle Sympatico users. <br><br>It's not as if Sympatico users suddenly began to consume dramatically more bandwidth.<br><br>Then in the period between November 2007 - March 2008 when Bell began the stealth throttle of ISP GAS links, <b>none</b> of the independent ISP's were having any capacity issues on GAS except for their normal growth patterns - necessitating merely normal capacity planning on their part.<br><br>Subsequent to March 2008, Bell pulls back the curtain on their on-line movie store.<br><br>It's abundantly clear that what Bell was/is doing is attempting to discriminate against all by reserving bandwidth for paid content offered by one of their subsidiaries during the evening hours when the bulk of such content is typically viewed.<br><br>Bell could have run fiber from its movie store head-end to each CO to give themselves a dedicated pipe for their paid content, and bypassed the allegedly congested GAS-tariffed pipes (bought and paid for by independent ISP's), but they didn't.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 12:01:08 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22482324</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1627906"><b>freejazz_RdJ</b></A> : I'll agree that cost studies don't really come into play in the R&V process since they had no part in the original proceeding... cost of the service wasn't discussed as a central claim.<br><br>I'm sure we'll be fascinated by the cost study analysis, but the costs themselves likely won't be public in order to protect the business, as we would expect. It could either be that they've been making obscene profits on the GAS service or that they've been making little if any profit. At the end of the day, if it isn't obscenely profitable and they can show growth in traffic and the corresponding growth in transport isn't being recouped by the GAS fees it would hurt the indie ISP's.<br><br>It's also important to remember that the transport of a GAS customer's traffic is more expensive than for a retail client. Not only because retail clients likely hit an IP-pop much closer to home, but because GAS clients require additional engineering/equipment/licensing that wouldn't be needed if wholesale didn't exist.]]></description>
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<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:31:02 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22474348</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><b>jfmezei</b></A> : >this is the wrong time to ask for a cost study.<br><br>I update my submission hours before submitting it when I find out that the CRTC was asking for a cost study anyways.<br><br>All the issues are interrelated and come down to one simple issue:<br><br>increased average use by customer who will download more and more media-heavy files (aka: large files, angello, you, of all people, should know this). This is not very different from dial-up days when Bell's busy hour moved to the evening because of dial-up internet suddently changed average call duration and wrecked Bell's capacity models. Yet, Bell reacted by adding sufficient capacity to handle the load.<br><br>In the case of GAS, there are changing patterns from the old style HTTP only transactions that were short bursts with large amount sof iddle time while the user read the text page. Bell is reacting by preventing the changing patterms by throttling those who have evolved into new style of internet usage, this, despite ISPs paying for the capacity that is requyire to service the new generation of users.<br><br>Sympatico may have decided to not invest to  support the new generation of internet usage. But some other ISP is willing to purchase the capacity needed to provide this service, Bell shouldn't be allowed to prevent this.<br><br>To this end, proving that GAS rates reflect the costs of providing the capacity that is being purchased is critical to show that Bell has no right to claim that GAS customers are using more than they are paying for.<br><br>The ultimate result should be that the CRTC forces Sympatico to buy GAS from Bell, or that the CRTC decide that GAS is a totally separate service from Sympatico and that Bell cannot be allowed to manage it in the same way.<br><br>In the later case, proving that GAS rates match or exceed the cost of providing the service means that Bell should be obligate to have sufficient capacity in its network to deleiver the purchased products.<br><br>If there is sufficient capacity, then usage within the bounds of what is being purchased should not negatively affect other users. ]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 20:47:14 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22473684</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/646748"><b>Angelo_</b></A> : i'm not shocked JF<br><br>this is the wrong time to ask for a cost study.<br><br>Also what caip brought up the crtc currently has to look into as privacy issues should be their #1 concern. Theres been too many people fighting bell over this for this to go awa y now, it'll be interesting to see what happens when bell looses]]></description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 17:58:31 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22469398</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/0"><b>anon</b></A> : CRTC Special Edition Kneepads are now available in your favourite Telco / Cableco colours. <br><br>Sized to fit every CRTC Commissioner.<div class="borderless"><TABLE WIDTH=95% align=center border=0 CELLPADDING=4"><TR><TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=CENTER BGCOLOR=#000000 nwrap COLSPAN=3 WIDTH=100%><A HREF="/speak/slideshow/22469398?c=1434440&ret=L2ZvcnVtL3IyMjQ2NTE4Ny54bWw%3D"><IMG TITLE="34138 bytes" BORDER=0 WIDTH=550 HEIGHT=348 SRC="/r0/download/1434440~29c9f28953fcbe99d8295e63e9dc50e8/CRTC%20kneepad.jpg"></A></TD></TABLE></div>]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22469398</guid>
<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 15:37:11 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22468783</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><b>jfmezei</b></A> : This may have to do more with process.<br><br>CRTC gave a june 30th deadline for comments on the R&V. The Cost study arrives July 10th.<br><br>By diassociating both, it allows the CRTC to proceed with this R&V without having to wait for the cost study.<br><br>My argument was that if ISPs are paying in full for bandwidth, then Bell should provision its network to provide said bandwidth without having any negative impact on others. And "paying in full" would be proven by the cost studies.<br><br>By the time the CRTC gets around to deciding on the R&V, they will have seen the cost study, and I suspect they alreaydy know that it will show that ISPs are paying in full for their bandwidth and then some.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22468783</guid>
<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 12:39:40 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Re: Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22468676</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1526081"><b>InvalidError</b></A> : <div class="bquote"><small>said by  jfmezei <A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><IMG SRC="http://i.dslr.net/bb/profile.gif" ALT="See Profile" BORDER=0 WIDTH=16 HEIGHT=11></A> :</small><br><br>Commission staff notes that Vaxination has proposed that the cost studies requested by the Commission in support of its consideration of Bell Canada Tariff Notice 7181 be made part of this Part VII process. Commission staff considers that these cost studies do not relate to the issues raised in this proceeding, and hence they will not form part of the record of this proceeding. <br></div>More proof that the CRTC is staffed by either morons or Bell sympathizers.<br><br>How is a cost study related to throttling any different than a cost study for UBB or providing ADSL2 to GAS? These are simply three facets of the same thing, they use the same infrastructure, wires, fibers and other facilities so all their costs are intrinsically linked to each other.<br><br>I guess this means we can look forward to the CRTC requesting separate cost study for each individual issue and with a 2+ month allowance each time, we will not be remotely close to seeing the end of this BS this year.<br><br>The CRTC needs to get its ass in gear, decisions made in geological time are incompatible with access to technology. The CRTC makes even the FCC look good.]]></description>
<guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22468676</guid>
<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 12:06:27 EDT</pubDate>
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<title>Status of 2008-108 Throttling Review and Vary</title>
<link>http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22465187</link>
<description><![CDATA[<A HREF="/useremail/u/1427659"><b>jfmezei</b></A> : Got this in the mail today:<br><br>The CRTC page for the file at:<br>&raquo;<A HREF="http://www.crtc.gc.ca/partvii/eng/2009/8662/p8_200907727.htm" >www.crtc.gc.ca/partvii/eng/2009/&middot;&middot;&middot;7727.htm</A><br>(my submission had been files as the V42 * 7826 file, I assume they will combine with CAIP's submission).<br><br>========================================<br><br>29 May 2009  File No.:  8662-V42-200907826 <br> 8662-P8-200907727 <br> <br><br> <br>BY E-MAIL <br> <br> <br>Mr. Tom Copeland <br>Chair <br>Canadian Association of Internet Providers <br>tom.copeland@caip.ca   <br> <br>Mr. John Lawford <br>Counsel for PIAC <br>lawford@piac.ca <br> <br>MR. Jean-Fran&ccedil;ois Mezei <br>Vaxination Informatique <br>86 Harwood Gate <br>Beaconsfield QC  H9W 3A3 <br>jfmezei@vaxination.ca  <br> <br> <br>Dear Sirs: <br> <br>Re:  Part VII Applications Requesting a Review and Vary of Telecom Decision <br>CRTC 2008-108 <br> <br>The Commission is in receipt of an application, dated 20 May 2009, made by Vaxination <br>Informatique (Vaxination) pursuant to Part VII of the CRTC Telecommunications Rules of <br>Procedure requesting that the Commission review and vary Telecom Decision <br>CRTC 2008-108, The Canadian Association of Internet Providers' application regarding <br>Bell Canada's traffic shaping of its wholesale Gateway Access Service, 20 November 2008 <br>(Decision 2008-108). <br> <br>The Commission is also in receipt of a Part VII application made by the Consumers&#146; <br>Association of Canada, the Canadian Association of Internet Providers and a number of other <br>parties (CAIP et al.), dated 21 May 2009, also requesting that the Commission review and <br>vary Decision 2008-108.  <br> <br>In view of the similarity of the issues raised in these applications, these two applications will <br>be considered in one combined proceeding. Interested parties may file with the Commission, <br>serving a copy on Vaxination and CAIP et al., comments with regard to the issues raised in <br>these applications by 20 June 2009. Vaxination and CAIP et al. may provide their responses  to these comments, serving a copy on all other parties, by 30 June 2009. Documents to be <br>filed and served in accordance with the above process are to be received, not merely sent, by <br>the dates indicated. <br> <br>Commission staff notes that Vaxination has proposed that the cost studies requested by the <br>Commission in support of its consideration of Bell Canada Tariff Notice 7181 be made part <br>of this Part VII process. Commission staff considers that these cost studies do not relate to <br>the issues raised in this proceeding, and hence they will not form part of the record of this <br>proceeding. <br> <br>Yours sincerely <br> <br> <br>Original signed by <br> <br> <br>Yvan Davidson <br>Senior Manager <br>Costing & Competitive Services ]]></description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 16:00:28 EDT</pubDate>
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