NICK79
join:2008-11-08
Cincinnati, OH
| DK Tank stats needed for Heroic's plus Rant lol
Okay so im really tired of getting not getting into groups because i dont have 30k hp or our group's disbanding because everyone blames me, im unholy tank and feel free to look me up Endbringer - Khadgar is my realm - BGDeathDealers is my guild
i've been playing for about 1.5 yrs, my main before I went DK was a DPS, i always used wowwiki.com & Thottbot.com to find my way thru the game to get what i need or answer my questions, didnt find this forum till a few months ago but i hated the wow forums due to to much crap, but i have read almost everything Archievious has posted about DK's ( sorry if i spelled that wrong man )
so heres the deal - my def is over the cap, it 558, my hp is 22.2k ( which i know it would be nice if more but thats what runing the Heroics are for, to gear up ) my armour is over 25k and my dodge is @ 19% and when my BB goes off my parry is 24%, sso according to wowwiki and elitejerk i have the stats to start doing Heroic's and even have the stats to start tanking Nax ( even thou i havnt even tried ), in looking up the drops of most dungeons i need to do Heroics for upgrades, there are some rep upgrades i could have but of course im working on that also and need to run the dungeon's to get there
so my question is, do i really have that bad of stats to where i cant tank a Heroic? and trust me its not my skill its my basic stats that are getting people to not inv me or leave when we have any kind of trouble, i dont have all the addon's i need to tell how dps is doing , how the healer is doing to try and place blame, im the kind of player that i think almost anything is possable if u work together, i feel that our server has had such a shortage of TANKS for so long that the groups are use to the tanking being "over geared" for the dungeon and not needing to work hard at all, plus the fact that DK's are new and most people who dont paly one dont understand them, i get crap all the time for not going tank instead of dps, and i have all the enchaments im going to get without some upgrade, not going to drop a mint at the AH on something that can be replaced in a week, but i do have good enchants
sorry for the rant but hopfully u can see my point of the post, are my stats really that bad? and if u armoury me for somereason after logging out my armory only showed 20k hp but its up to 22.2k
i just want to know if i have enough to start H or if im just getting in bad groups?
ty |
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Margolis
Premium
join:2003-11-24
Saint Louis, MO
 ·Charter Pipeline
| well, I just looked. You have only 20k hp and 14k armor with only 18% dodge and 13% parry, that is not what you say in your post. You need to work on getting better gear before attempting heroics, imo. Get more crafted gear and rep gear. There is a lot of good gear you can get before starting heroics. |
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NICK79
join:2008-11-08
Cincinnati, OH
| reply to NICK79
I told you that for some reason when i check armoury my stats wernt what they are in game, not sure if its from frost presence or something else but i assure u in game i have the stats i stated so, with those stats would i be okay, and if not what stats do i need?
please dont just tell me to gear up or i need more, im looking for what more i need, what should my dodge be at, what should my hp be at?
ty, i know i had alot in my post so maybe that part about the armory was over looked |
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Margolis
Premium
join:2003-11-24
Saint Louis, MO
·Charter Pipeline
| reply to NICK79
Re: DK Tank stats needed for Heroic's plus Rant lol
armory shows the stats you have when you log out, even with buffs.
You need more avoidance. work on gear that has def, dodge and parry. get rid of crap that has expertise or nature resist and replace with more avoidance. I don't have a dk tank, but without a shield and lots of armor, dk's need avoidance I would think, especially parry. |
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Krisnatharok
0311 Scout
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Sterling, VA
1 edit | reply to NICK79
It's true that you need avoidance. It's worthwhile becoming a Jewelcrafter to use the JC-only trinkets and gems.
Simply cut and pasted from some pre-nax gearing website, here is the list of all the enchants you want and where to get them:
- Head enchant: "Arcanum of the Stalwart Protector" - Argent Crusade/Revered - 37stam/20 def rating
- Shoulder enchant: "Greater Inscription of the Pinnacle" - Sons of Hodirs/Exalted - 20dodge/15def rating
- Cloak enchant: "Enchant Cloak - Titanweave" - AH - 16 def rating
- Wrist enchant: "Enchant Bracer - Fortitude" - AH - 12stam
- Leg enchant: "Frosthide Leg Armor" - AH - 55stam/22agi
- Feet Enchant: "Greater Fortitude" - AH -22stam
As well as some crafted items to buy:
- JC: Titanium Earthguard Ring (+50str/+63stam/25def/34dodge, blue socket+4def)
- JC: Titanium Earthguard Chain Ring (+49str/+63stam/+34def, red socket+6stam)
- BS: Tempered Titansteel Treads (+45str/+120stam/+35def)
Your def is too good. I don't know if you gemmed for it or not, but drop some defense gems back to 535 and pick up some stamina or avoidance gems. Healers like a little bit of a buffer. JC +41stam gems are awesome for this, and they're prismatic. I'm not sure if your HP at 22.2k is in frost or not, but that's a little low for tanking heroics in my book.
You could even drop your defense back to 525 and pick up the Sigil in Dal that gives +11 def for 30 seconds when you use icy touch. Consider it a 100% proc.
Also... another thing to think about is dropping the Rune of the Stoneskin Gargoyle and getting the sword-shattering one. If you are over on defense you can eat the loss and gain more avoidance.
As far a tanking weapon... the best you can get is the Titansteel Destroyer without going into Naxx and hoping for a 0.8% droprate.
Ever since I dropped DPS to become a tank, I've found that as long as your tank has decent health, is uncrittable, and decent avoidance, the healer is most often at fault. You either have someone who doesn't understand their class (mb they leveled as an spriest the whole way and doesn't get healing) or just isn't geared. It's pretty easy to gauge whether a tank is ready for heroics or not. But it's harder to gauge healers, and since there are fewer of them, we tend to be more accepting of healers in substandard gear.
Anyways... look me up if you want more info... Krisnatharok on Grizzly Hills.
edit: typos
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Violence has resolved more conflicts than anything else. The contrary opinion that violence doesn't solve anything is merely wishful thinking at its worst. |
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Mihn
@verizon.net
| reply to NICK79
Nick, In my opinion, the low health is holding you back. You have enough defense for heroics so that should be fine.
I think if you focus on getting the gear pieces that will last you a long time and then put really good enchants/gems in them, that will help you progress faster.
I'm not sure how you're doing financially but if you can afford it, I would say get the Tempered Titansteel helm and boots and get the good gems on them. That should boost your hp and defense/avoidance higher.
Also work on getting the Breastplate of the Solemn Council (wyrmrest rep reward) and Special Issue legplates (Argent Crusade rep reward) both which are pretty easily obtainable. Once you have these, you won't be looking back.
To the other poster, Nick is telling the truth about his stats. Armory doesn't show the correct presence/stat he is in. It's the same way with me. It shows I have approximately 24k hp but I'm actually at 27k when tanking. |
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Ret Pally
@optonline.net
| reply to Margolis
said by Margolis  :armory shows the stats you have when you log out, even with buffs. This was changed recently. I believe it was with the WoTLK patch (could have been sooner but that was when I noticed). Armory does not show a dk in frost presence, a druid in bear or any buff at all. It shows your stats with your gear only. Gear enchants and gems are tallied but not buffs. |
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ErikVKing
Erik the Viking
Premium
join:2008-06-19
Davenport, IA
·Mediacom
2 edits | said by Ret Pally :said by Margolis :armory shows the stats you have when you log out, even with buffs. This was changed recently. I believe it was with the WoTLK patch (could have been sooner but that was when I noticed). Armory does not show a dk in frost presence, a druid in bear or any buff at all. It shows your stats with your gear only. Gear enchants and gems are tallied but not buffs. That was actually changed quite a while ago.
And to NICK: I didn't check your armory or anything of the sort, but I was tanking the "low-end" Heroics (VH, UK, etc.) with just the Tempered Saronite gear and was fine.
With 558 Def you need to itemize some and swap out gear that has +def for +stam/dodge/parry. I am *constantly* evaluating my tanking pieces and have about 10 slots of tanking gear on me in case I get an item with overall better stats (more dodge/AC/parry/TPS/etc.) and need to swap a piece back in that has more +def.
Right now I am 5 over the cap, but am leaving it as-is because it's barely over and I have nothing that swaps out to keep a decent set of stats.
As far as HPs go, I think you should be fine even at ~22k as a DK. From my experience, DK tanks don't need the same amount of HP that Warriors do with all of the extra mitigation you have.
Here is my Warrior: »www.wowarmory.com/character-shee···fG7d67CD
As you can see I *still* have some of the crafted pieces on (though they aren't Saronite anymore, upgraded to Titansteel). If you get a handful of the Titansteel pieces and the JC rings etc. as stated above, you will have those for quite some time.
GL to ya bud!
EDIT: Forgot to add something ... when you get a new piece, or even right now, make sure and think through what enchant and/or gem you use. Being so far over the cap, you might be able to use a stam/dodge/parry gem and a stam/stats enchant instead of going all out +def.
Also, I'm not sure how it works on DKs, but I know Warriors need a decent amount of +hit so as not to miss a Sunder etc. (yes, I'm way too low on that as-is) so that may be a stat to look into?. |
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Ghastlyone
join:2009-01-07
North Las Vegas, NV
1 edit | said by ErikVKing :said by Ret Pally :said by Margolis :armory shows the stats you have when you log out, even with buffs. This was changed recently. I believe it was with the WoTLK patch (could have been sooner but that was when I noticed). Armory does not show a dk in frost presence, a druid in bear or any buff at all. It shows your stats with your gear only. Gear enchants and gems are tallied but not buffs. That was actually changed quite a while ago. And to NICK: I didn't check your armory or anything of the sort, but I was tanking the "low-end" Heroics (VH, UK, etc.) with just the Tempered Saronite gear and was fine. With 558 Def you need to itemize some and swap out gear that has +def for +stam/dodge/parry. I am *constantly* evaluating my tanking pieces and have about 10 slots of tanking gear on me in case I get an item with overall better stats (more dodge/AC/parry/TPS/etc.) and need to swap a piece back in that has more +def. Right now I am 5 over the cap, but am leaving it as-is because it's barely over and I have nothing that swaps out to keep a decent set of stats. As far as HPs go, I think you should be fine even at ~22k as a DK. From my experience, DK tanks don't need the same amount of HP that Warriors do with all of the extra mitigation you have. Here is my Warrior: » www.wowarmory.com/character-shee···fG7d67CDAs you can see I *still* have some of the crafted pieces on (though they aren't Saronite anymore, upgraded to Titansteel). If you get a handful of the Titansteel pieces and the JC rings etc. as stated above, you will have those for quite some time. GL to ya bud! EDIT: Forgot to add something ... when you get a new piece, or even right now, make sure and think through what enchant and/or gem you use. Being so far over the cap, you might be able to use a stam/dodge/parry gem and a stam/stats enchant instead of going all out +def. Also, I'm not sure how it works on DKs, but I know Warriors need a decent amount of +hit so as not to miss a Sunder etc. (yes, I'm way too low on that as-is) so that may be a stat to look into?. Don't ever gem or look for +hit gear being a tank. That is an absolute garbage stat.
With DK's it's all about the mitigation. I've run with a DK tank that literally fully buffed had 21k health. But had a huge amount of Parry and Dodge, was spec'd right, and was over defense capped. We cleared the instances perfectly.
So when people say "OMG YOU DON'T HAVE 31K HEALTH!!" Tell them to shut the fuck up and drop them from the group.
Here's my DK in my tank gear..»www.wowarmory.com/character-shee···astlyone
I can tank pretty damn fuckin good, and I'm spec'd just right to where I can swicth gear on the fly and DPS like a mad man.
Spec'd in Blood, the single target threat cannot be matched. I've yet to have any class pull a mob from me. I was averaging 5k-7k TPS in Naxx the other day. I also like Blood for the Vampiric Blood talent. I can hit 43k health fully raid buffed.
Like others have said, your best bet is purchasing the Titan steel ring, neck piece, boots and Helm for the meta socket, until you get some 10/25man drops. And please don't gem all +stam. You should be gemming all either +defense/+parry or if your defense is good, gem all +parry/+stam. |
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WhakkaWhakka
join:2004-12-28
Tunkhannock, PA
| said by Ghastlyone :Like others have said, your best bet is purchasing the Titan steel ring, neck piece, boots and Helm for the meta socket, until you get some 10/25man drops. And please don't gem all +stam. You should be gemming all either +defense/+parry or if your defense is good, gem all +parry/+stam. Dont gem for parry, you get more avoidance point for point from dodge. |
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ErikVKing
Erik the Viking
Premium
join:2008-06-19
Davenport, IA
·Mediacom
| reply to NICK79
Here is a good write-up on TankSpot as well. This list shows the items we have been talking about (rep, crafted, etc.) that you can get without doing 500 runs of various instances to get what you need:
»www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/4096···ist.html |
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Ghastlyone
join:2009-01-07
North Las Vegas, NV
| reply to WhakkaWhakka
said by WhakkaWhakka :said by Ghastlyone :Like others have said, your best bet is purchasing the Titan steel ring, neck piece, boots and Helm for the meta socket, until you get some 10/25man drops. And please don't gem all +stam. You should be gemming all either +defense/+parry or if your defense is good, gem all +parry/+stam. Dont gem for parry, you get more avoidance point for point from dodge. Most DK's dodge is higher already, the reason for gemming parry is to bring your Parry rating in line with your dodge. From what I've heard, you want both to be close to each other. You don't want too much dodge and not enough parry. |
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Krisnatharok
0311 Scout
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Sterling, VA | Dodge is good, but we are parry whores.
Just remember that pre-3.1, you gain +10% parry when your blood runes are on cooldown (which is all the time), so regardless of how much Dodge you get, I don't think it will equal your buffed parry. |
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Sithra
join:2008-02-07
1 edit | reply to Ghastlyone
said by Ghastlyone :Most DK's dodge is higher already, the reason for gemming parry is to bring your Parry rating in line with your dodge. From what I've heard, you want both to be close to each other. You don't want too much dodge and not enough parry. What the hell? Why would parry need to be "in line" with dodge? The net result of a dodge or parry is identical.
Edit: Just to clarify, don't gem for parry, ignore terribad advice.
As elitistjerks would say: "You should never, ever gem for Parry it is strictly inferior" |
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Benty
join:2008-01-30
Durham, NC
| reply to NICK79
I like to see 23khp 535 def as a base.
How are your getting blamed? Is the group wiping? If so who is dieing first.
Gear and skill both matter. Gear minimums are based on what does "good" players need. If you or your healers aren't "good", you will need better gear as a buffer.
Most of the heroics out there can probably be tanked with less than 20k hp if the tank uses cooldowns and the groups use CC and dps isn't lacking. Much simpler to just have a 28k+ hp tank and grab everything and just AE it down though  |
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Ghastlyone
join:2009-01-07
North Las Vegas, NV
1 edit | reply to Sithra
said by Sithra :said by Ghastlyone :Most DK's dodge is higher already, the reason for gemming parry is to bring your Parry rating in line with your dodge. From what I've heard, you want both to be close to each other. You don't want too much dodge and not enough parry. What the hell? Why would parry need to be "in line" with dodge? The net result of a dodge or parry is identical. Edit: Just to clarify, don't gem for parry, ignore terribad advice. As elitistjerks would say: "You should never, ever gem for Parry it is strictly inferior" Yes, because we all know....Elitist Jerks is the be all, end all of WoW knowledge. So please enlighten us all Sithra, why is Parry inferior?? It's ok take your time, we'll be waiting here for you to copy and paste something straight from your WoW knowledge database.
And by the way.....if Parry is so inferior? Why would a DK even spec the 5 points into that talent in the Blood tree then? Why would Blizz even put Parry rating on tanking gear right beside Dodge? |
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WhakkaWhakka
join:2004-12-28
Tunkhannock, PA
1 edit | Its bad because the ratings are straight up worse. You get more avoidance from dodge than parry with the same numbers.
Dodge Rating: 39.3 rating grants 1% dodge
Parry Rating: 49.1 rating grants 1% parry
And the DK talent gives straight percent, not rating. As to why they put it on gear, it's all item budget. |
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Ghastlyone
join:2009-01-07
North Las Vegas, NV
| said by WhakkaWhakka :Its bad because the ratings are straight up worse. You get more avoidance from dodge than parry with the same numbers. Dodge Rating: 39.3 rating grants 1% dodge Parry Rating: 49.1 rating grants 1% parry And the DK talent gives straight percent, not rating. As to why they put it on gear, it's all item budget. You kidding me. We're talking a 9.8 point difference between the 2 stats?? Is it really that serious? We're talking about tanking a fuckin' heroic for god's sake, not 25man Uldaur.
If I gem for Parry and that makes me "terribad" then so be it...but imo, I can tank heroics and current 10/25 man content just fine. |
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Benty
join:2008-01-30
Durham, NC
2 edits | A 9.8 point difference comes down to 1.25% dodge or 1% parry.
1.25% pure avoidence from dodge.
Parry is not pure avoidence. More parry increases your threat by you getting parry haste, and accordingly increases the damage you take by giving the mobs more chances to parry you and get hasted. That is why parry is more expensive, because it increases your damage/threat. However, since threat hasn't been an issue, but survival always is, the value of Parry has decrease vs dodge.
In talent trees when 1 point buys 1% parry or dodge, effectively the Parry is being discounted by 25% from the cost of using gear to get the same amount, so it makes complete sense to grab the parry talents if you have the points.
A lot of things don't matter in the current content. Most decent tanks could gear for Mp5 and still be fine. "fine" is just a subjective term. If something is better why not take the better option? It is like a rogue going combat daggers, and saying they do fine. Yeah, they can kill stuff, if not they wouldn't have gotten to lvl 80. But the fact remains they could kill stuff better as another spec/weapon.
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