Usage Billing in Cogeco

Usage Billing in Cogeco http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r22165733 en Wed, 25 Nov 2009 03:23:16 EDT Wed, 25 Nov 2009 03:23:16 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22701503 exseven : sorry snick, i was replying to dan.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22701503 Mon, 13 Jul 2009 17:01:06 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22701468 Snickerdo :

said by exseven

:

With all the people against QOS on the system, why are you asking for it?

I didn't say I was asking for it.

And, considering that Cogeco openly admits that they do packet shaping and have the hardware in place, there wouldn't be any capital costs involved to prioritize the three main VoIP protocols. The only thing they'd need to do is pay the wages for the person who has to implement it and test it before going live.
--
You ask, what is our aim? I can answer in one word: Victory. Victory at all costs - Victory in spite of all terror - Victory, however long and hard the road may be, for without victory there is no survival.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22701468 Mon, 13 Jul 2009 16:55:02 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22701441 exseven : Except that would need a lot of capital to do... you you pay an extra lets say $5 for SIP MGCP or Skype priority? Right now no specific QOS rules towards VOIP packet headers are in use, it is looked upon the same as any other RTP stream.

Cogeco's Digital Phone implementation utilizes PacketCable specifications and has separate service flows for the Digital Phone and the ethernet port on the eMTA.

With all the people against QOS on the system, why are you asking for it? Asking for VOIP priority is like asking for HTTP priority over P2P.....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22701441 Mon, 13 Jul 2009 16:51:34 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22701431 urbanriot : It's not a terrible idea... but now you're talking about what people like to call "packet shaping" and I'm sure you know how that term excites everyone... ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22701431 Mon, 13 Jul 2009 16:49:57 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22701253 Snickerdo :

said by urbanriot

:

Even better, but then everyone would have to comply with the same standards... and they don't.

Giving priority to SIP, MCGP and Skype would cover 99% of all VoIP traffic out there.
--
You ask, what is our aim? I can answer in one word: Victory. Victory at all costs - Victory in spite of all terror - Victory, however long and hard the road may be, for without victory there is no survival.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22701253 Mon, 13 Jul 2009 16:17:44 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22701243 urbanriot : Even better, but then everyone would have to comply with the same standards... and they don't. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22701243 Mon, 13 Jul 2009 16:15:47 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22700791 dan991199 :

said by urbanriot

:

All right, so she said it's the same "circuit."

What's your point again? I'm pretty sure that, even if Cogeco's VOIP was mixed into the internet pot, everyone would agree that the added bonus of having their Cogeco phone packets QoS'd at a higher priority would be a good thing...(?)

no i think everyone would agree that having ALL voip phone packets QOS'd at a higher priority would be a good thing.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22700791 Mon, 13 Jul 2009 15:17:53 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22700555 urbanriot : All right, so she said it's the same "circuit."

What's your point again? I'm pretty sure that, even if Cogeco's VOIP was mixed into the internet pot, everyone would agree that the added bonus of having their Cogeco phone packets QoS'd at a higher priority would be a good thing...(?)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22700555 Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:49:32 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22700090 anon : ack..sorry for the bad grammar for all you grammar people out there, especially using your instead of you're!

Anyway, here is the link to the thread I quoted Krispy from:

»Does having Cogeco home phone effect my internet speed?.

I have a lot of experience in this area and just want regular users to know the truth, not the spin version of it. I would believe what was said to the CRTC by Cogeco and Rogers, to anything that is posted in the Cogeco forums, after years of disinformation.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22700090 Mon, 13 Jul 2009 13:50:30 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22700036 urbanriot :

said by exseven

:

separate physical circuit

Any chance you can link him to the previous discussion over this topic with xeroid, where it was discussed in greater detail?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22700036 Mon, 13 Jul 2009 13:37:26 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22699611 exseven : separate physical circuit]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22699611 Mon, 13 Jul 2009 12:28:28 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22699500 anon : SIP or (session initiation protocol), still uses TCP and UDP and you make it sound like it's on a separate circuit, it's not. It still goes through the same nodes. Hence why internet is down, your Cogeco home phone will be down.

They are priortized on a higher level then normal VOIP traffic on the cogeco network. Cogeco was never directly asked this, but rogers was, and they admitted to it.

I just wish cogeco would get back up and answer more questions from the CRTC, very enlighting, it's a shame that certain people never learn things.

Just to drive my point home, here is a quote from Krispy directly in a previous post:

said by Krispy: :
Correct. To clarify, it's not that Cogeco VOIP traffic rides on a separate physical circuit, it's just given priority over your regular internet traffic.

Please don't call me names, just stating the truth, no need to name call because your wrong.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22699500 Mon, 13 Jul 2009 12:22:15 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22699352 urbanriot :

said by FreetheNet :

Cogeco does the same thing, so in fact, Cogeco is already sorting your vonage packets and making it a lower priority on the network then say Cogeco VOIP packets.

Cogeco is not doing that and you know it. Stop trolling. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22699352 Mon, 13 Jul 2009 11:50:46 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22699265 exseven : Cogeco doesnt prioritize internet VOIP traffic at all. Digital phone traffic is run on a separate stream from any traffic to the internet

If you don't understand how Cogeco digital phone works in relation to a SIP service don't comment on it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22699265 Mon, 13 Jul 2009 11:39:50 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22699087 anon :

quote:
= Fireblade
No problems with Vonage for over 5 years.

Also I want to point out. Rogers has admitted to the CRTC that they use DPI to sort the packets and prioritize "their" VOIP packets over normal surfing and p2p and so on.

Cogeco does the same thing, so in fact, Cogeco is already sorting your vonage packets and making it a lower priority on the network then say Cogeco VOIP packets.

Now if your area becomes congested, your neighbor with cogeco home phone is going to have better call quality and no dropped calls, compared to someone using another VOIP service, you might not notice this on the user end depending on a lot of variables and congestion...yet.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22699087 Mon, 13 Jul 2009 11:18:18 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22691983 Fireblade :

said by Last Parade

:

Got my second telemarketing call from Cogeco last night. They try to sell me on the phone service which is "$20 less" than what I'm paying for only 30 bucks or something. I tell them I'm paying $9.99 for VoIP (which could be less if I could be bothered) and ~$25 for 6 Mb DSL. They act surprised and I say have a good day.

That $9.99 is with Acanac right? I think I'm going to switch to them once I find that Cisco VTA for under $40.
--
I love fish sticks. I love putting fish sticks in my mouth.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22691983 Sat, 11 Jul 2009 17:00:17 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22690996 Last Parade : Got my second telemarketing call from Cogeco last night. They try to sell me on the phone service which is "$20 less" than what I'm paying for only 30 bucks or something. I tell them I'm paying $9.99 for VoIP (which could be less if I could be bothered) and ~$25 for 6 Mb DSL. They act surprised and I say have a good day.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22690996 Sat, 11 Jul 2009 12:12:29 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22690848 anon : @gixxer
Yes they "do" throttle, but not the same way bell does. Packet disruption effects a lot more then just speed, depending on settings it can effect max connections as secondary action of time out and so on...

@urbanriot
They can do this, is the point. Aren't you the same person that denied throttling of P2P for years on this forum with that same kind of argument. Guess you don't learn.

@backness
Yep, but the problem is the only people they will be honest to are the CRTC, since they are the only ones that could do anything about it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22690848 Sat, 11 Jul 2009 11:25:01 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22690845 Fireblade :

said by urbanriot

said by FreeTheNet :

The alarming thing about this is, who is to say they aren't doing this on VOIP like vonage or other competitors, or certain websites.

I have friends using Vonage with Cogeco and they have zero complaints. I believe Gixxer has Vonage as well and could probably confirm or deny how well it works or doesn't work on Cogeco.

No problems with Vonage for over 5 years.

said by backness

:

or perhaps cogeco could tell the customer who pays for service what they are doing instead of the consumer spending his/her free time trying to figure this out from imperfect information

Indeed and they should explain it in layman's terms with examples, not technical jargon that the customer will NOT understand.
--
I love fish sticks. I love putting fish sticks in my mouth.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22690845 Sat, 11 Jul 2009 11:22:22 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22690814 backness : or perhaps cogeco could tell the customer who pays for service what they are doing instead of the consumer spending his/her free time trying to figure this out from imperfect information]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22690814 Sat, 11 Jul 2009 11:16:00 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22690800 urbanriot :

said by FreeTheNet :

The alarming thing about this is, who is to say they aren't doing this on VOIP like vonage or other competitors, or certain websites.

I have friends using Vonage with Cogeco and they have zero complaints. I believe Gixxer has Vonage as well and could probably confirm or deny how well it works or doesn't work on Cogeco. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22690800 Sat, 11 Jul 2009 11:10:27 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22690619 Fireblade : They're throttling the upload, that I know for a fact.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22690619 Sat, 11 Jul 2009 09:54:37 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22690597 anon :

said by Fireblade

:

But but but... The network will degrade if they don't throttle!!!!

Technically they are not throttling, the are using packet disruption. They are sorting packets and dropping certain ones to slow down the flow, which is actually far worst then what bell does, by just throttling.

The alarming thing about this is, who is to say they aren't doing this on VOIP like vonage or other competitors, or certain websites.

Sure they might never admit to doing this, and will play word games to convince the naive and less technical, but we all know they have lied about this in the past, even in these very forums.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22690597 Sat, 11 Jul 2009 09:47:29 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22690543 Fireblade : But but but... The network will degrade if they don't throttle!!!!
--
I love fish sticks. I love putting fish sticks in my mouth.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22690543 Sat, 11 Jul 2009 09:22:19 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22690514 backness : Lets be clear here,

Cogeco representatives admitted yesterday to the CRTC that there was no need to throttle connections for about 95% of the day.

Anything they tell you about congestion is BULL. (as the 40 pages of comments correctly show)

Anyone from the Cogeco Staff want to comment on this? (your silence only implicates you in the steady stream of FUD and takes away from your credibility)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22690514 Sat, 11 Jul 2009 09:10:21 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22687851 Barry : I can't access mine either.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22687851 Fri, 10 Jul 2009 17:09:52 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22686461 kushiro : Yeah, I knew that. I've been using the My Account just about every day since the switchover, but the login wasn't working. It seems to be ok now, I just got in and saw that the bandwidth page is still not available. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22686461 Fri, 10 Jul 2009 13:21:57 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22685784 exseven : remember that 'My Account' isnt the same as your old selfcare login, you may need to make a login for it if you havnt already]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22685784 Fri, 10 Jul 2009 11:51:49 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22685641 Asawulf : No need for apologies, what I meant is that the outage is for the My Account section.

I don't even know why I mentionned the usage page only, maybe because the only thing I use My Account for is to check my bandwidth usage hehe]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22685641 Fri, 10 Jul 2009 11:31:17 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22685498 kushiro : My apologies in advance, Asawulf, but I don't understand what you mean. I am having trouble not just getting to the bandwidth page, but into "My Account". Does the outage include that login?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22685498 Fri, 10 Jul 2009 11:11:48 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22685443 Asawulf : There is an outage at the moment, the tools behind it are working normally but the access to the web page to see the bandwidth usage is down.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22685443 Fri, 10 Jul 2009 11:05:12 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22685411 Shamans :

said by kushiro

:

Is anyone else having trouble logging in to their accounts? I'm putting in the same password as always (and, yes, I checked the caps lock) but now I get redirected to an incorrect login page.

same here]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22685411 Fri, 10 Jul 2009 11:01:09 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22685400 Hamilton1 : Yep getting the same message as you are kushiro.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22685400 Fri, 10 Jul 2009 11:00:02 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22685328 kushiro : Is anyone else having trouble logging in to their accounts? I'm putting in the same password as always (and, yes, I checked the caps lock) but now I get redirected to an incorrect login page.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22685328 Fri, 10 Jul 2009 10:48:01 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22684312 ancodia :

said by crapeco :

..maybe im just being too optimissitic. but i cant see how they can get away with such bad service..

Where you gonna go? Alot of people served *cough* by Cogeco have no alternatives.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22684312 Fri, 10 Jul 2009 07:22:48 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22684249 anon :
this whole delayed usage meter and stuff is probably cogeco trying to pull a fast one on its customers...haha why not? they already shown they could care less

i have a feeling something will sway our way sorta soon..maybe im just being too optimissitic. but i cant see how they can get away with such bad service..]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22684249 Fri, 10 Jul 2009 06:49:56 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22682838 manderson4 : Just decided to check my usage because I am such a good netizen and get this right now 9:20 pm July 09/2009

»www.cogeco.ca/outage.html

This page is temporarily unavailable.

We apologize for this inconvenience!

Please try again later.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22682838 Thu, 09 Jul 2009 21:21:11 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22680185 chdude3 :

said by cogeco talk :

but once i CAN leave cogeco i WILL LEAVE for sure

Unfortunately, you and me both.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22680185 Thu, 09 Jul 2009 13:20:42 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22679371 anon :

well im not happy with the cap but im taking this in light of the best were going to get. i mean i called and gave cogeco a piece of my mind and this and that so im taking the if you cant beat them approach because i have no choice right now

sad i know... tell them about comcast... 250 gb limit a month..wow if ihad that i wouldnt complain at all or leave cogeco..

but once i CAN leave cogeco i WILL LEAVE for sure]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22679371 Thu, 09 Jul 2009 11:45:52 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22669878 sonicmerlin : Why would you be OK with caps of any form? They don't exist in other nations with competitive broadband industries.

ISPs have never been forced to open up their books to demonstrate how much each user costs them.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22669878 Tue, 07 Jul 2009 19:59:12 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22665576 anon : hey guys..i just noticed BELLS 50 dollar a month DSL is 75 GB's for bandwidth limit per month.

so does that mean cogeos is gonna go up to that? that still sucks,,, even a 100 GB would sorta make me consider sticking around...

but once DSL is on my street TEK SAVVY it is.

i guess its a positive thing to see 75 at least.. u think cogeco would want to keep up with the competitor. ..useless cogeco!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22665576 Tue, 07 Jul 2009 07:01:22 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22664657 anon : I know you'd all like higher speed caps, but according to Cogeco bandwidth is an incredibly scarce and expensive natural resource.*

* Except in Portugal and other such places with competitors. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22664657 Mon, 06 Jul 2009 23:09:28 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22662816 Fireblade : The way I see it is, if Tek Savvy can afford to give their customers 200GB of peer1 bandwidth for $29.99 / month I can't see why Cogeco can't do the same on all their $44+ plans. Also considering that they're a MUCH larger company and serve significantly more customers, they would get an even better rate with peer1 over TSI, I would even accept 150GB on their standard plan. Pro REALLY needs to be no less than 200GB, for over $80 a month, no way it should be less than 200, 250 is still even depressing but I feel it would be giving the customers a lot more to look forward to over the current limit and overcharges.
--
I love fish sticks. I love putting fish sticks in my mouth.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22662816 Mon, 06 Jul 2009 17:42:41 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22660712 Gruesome : If Pro had that cap I would have upgraded to pro and not left]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22660712 Mon, 06 Jul 2009 11:41:30 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22659319 Fireblade : It would make the pro plan actually worth it, right now it's useless.
--
I love fish sticks. I love putting fish sticks in my mouth.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22659319 Mon, 06 Jul 2009 00:53:40 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22659285 urbanriot :

said by Fireblade

:

Pro 250GB

Hey, then they'd be inline with Comcast's regular plan!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22659285 Mon, 06 Jul 2009 00:36:11 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22658608 Fireblade :

said by Snickerdo

:

If the cap on Pro was 200 or 250GB I can guarantee that there would be no uproar at all, and that the people who are angry would be a mere fraction of the people who are pissed off as hell right now.

Standard 150GB
Pro 250GB

Maybe .001% might complain.
--
I love fish sticks. I love putting fish sticks in my mouth.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22658608 Sun, 05 Jul 2009 21:13:46 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22658568 Fireblade :

said by exseven

:

they would just find something new to complain about, my ping time is 35ms when it used to be 25 now i suck at counterstrike

Don't lie to yourself, you were never good at Counter-Strike, ping nor God could save you!
--
I love fish sticks. I love putting fish sticks in my mouth.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22658568 Sun, 05 Jul 2009 21:04:28 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22658455 urbanriot :

said by Snickerdo

I agree. Some people might complain but the majority would be satisfied over a sensible amount. Cogeco's limits are not sensible at all. A sensible cap would be a "good value", as opposed to customer gouging. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22658455 Sun, 05 Jul 2009 20:37:41 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22658440 exseven : they would just find something new to complain about, my ping time is 35ms when it used to be 25 now i suck at counterstrike]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22658440 Sun, 05 Jul 2009 20:34:19 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22658291 Snickerdo : If the cap on Pro was 200 or 250GB I can guarantee that there would be no uproar at all, and that the people who are angry would be a mere fraction of the people who are pissed off as hell right now.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22658291 Sun, 05 Jul 2009 19:50:49 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22658280 Fireblade :

said by nydwarf1

:

You ever hear of a thing called advertising?

Apparently he missed that.
--
I love fish sticks. I love putting fish sticks in my mouth.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22658280 Sun, 05 Jul 2009 19:48:49 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22658075 nydwarf1 : You ever hear of a thing called advertising?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22658075 Sun, 05 Jul 2009 18:37:30 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22656438 anon :

said by ancodia

said by urbanriot

said by GyroCaptain

:

So I joined TekSavvy. HD has never looked better!

They're offering television service now?

they most certainly could offer streamed hd 264 content (from themselves or some other website) if it weren't for those pesky data caps .... however in Canada we allowed the end-user Internet to be controlled by 4 companies who are determined to NOT have that happen. That is, unless they can bill you for every byte you transfer, in which case they are more than happy to deliver you the service. And that's not because they NEED to charge you that way, but because they CAN charge you that way because YOU HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE.

Sure, they can spin their stories (over loaded lines - not true, expensive data services - not true, 2 people per km2 - not true) but reality is they have a monopoly on their market and thanks to the CRTC have no real incentive to offer you the most for the least, but only need to deliver the least for the most. It should be mandated by the CRTC that anyone who can access high-speed be delivered at least 2 meg of un-throttled, un-capped Internet access. This would allow content creators to deliver content to everyone unrestricted instead of being at the mercy of content delivery companies who add no value to the content but feeds off of its delivery like a parasite.

You are just another pirate if you believe you’re going to get free HD content for life from the Internet. In your fantasy world why would these content providers produce anything if there isn’t any pay day in it for them. How do the production houses get paid using your model? Lets say I’m the head of an investment group looking to invest 250 million in the next blockbuster movie and I want to by-pass traditional delivery methods and use the Internet as my delivery method. How do I show the investor’s a return on their dollar using your model? If you say charge by the download isn’t that a form of bit capping and if I’m charging by download how is that different from what we have now. Lets say I’m Universal and I have leased the rights to a movie to a company like Alliance who in turn cuts a deal with cable and satellite for that movie or blocks of movies for use on their pay per view or vod system. At the same time I place the same movie up on the Universal site for a free or greatly reduce price. Universal wins both ways, they reap profit from the traditional delivery methods and they get to use the cable and satellite provider’s Internet divisions as a free delivery system for direct sales. Now I’m the CEO of one of these cable or satellite companies and I have to explain to shareholders why profits in the pay for view and vod divisions are plummeting and cost in the Internet division are soaring. I’m not condoning the actions of ISP’s who impose caps I don’t think caps are the end answer. I’m pretty sure if Cogeco had doubled the allowed download to say 200 or 250 on pro and like wise on the other packages we wouldn’t be seeing the furor to the extent we have over bit capping. But that still wouldn’t solve the problem the entertainment industry has. This problem is much bigger than an ISP imposing a cap. Those that think they will get free content for life are living in la la land. But for now at least you can enjoy it while it last.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22656438 Sun, 05 Jul 2009 12:08:27 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22652509 sonicmerlin : In 2004, Japan had the best cost to performance ADSL service in the world (50 Mbit/s, 35US$).

In 2005, Kansai Electric Power launched a 1 Gbit/s FTTH service at 8700yen (90US$).

In 2009, Canadian ISP Cogeco reduced service to its customers by implementing usage caps.

Heh, network overloaded Cogeco? Must be tough, trying to maintain a network you never put any money into.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22652509 Sat, 04 Jul 2009 00:40:48 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22616832 anon :

said by urbanriot

said by GyroCaptain

:

So I joined TekSavvy. HD has never looked better!

They're offering television service now?

A television is required for HD?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22616832 Fri, 26 Jun 2009 16:44:39 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22616569 urbanriot : That was a "no?"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22616569 Fri, 26 Jun 2009 15:51:41 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22615735 ancodia :

said by urbanriot

said by GyroCaptain

:

So I joined TekSavvy. HD has never looked better!

They're offering television service now?

said by GyroCaptain

:

So I joined TekSavvy. HD has never looked better!

They're offering television service now?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22615394 Fri, 26 Jun 2009 13:07:55 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22615040 MadInOntario : You may as well forget arguing with COGECO and do what I am looking for a new net provider that is faster more reliable and doesnt magically make things appear on my bill. I wont even bother to argue you get no where so you cant win cause they don't care. Cogeco is always right and you as a customer are always wrong. I was a net installer and tech for ROGERS and I gotta tell you we had problems yes but not like the bad service and atitudes of COGECO they have to be the worst I ever have seen. First the service sucks second their customer service policies also suck and they wonder why people hate them and are leaving?

My advice is to do what I am and leave fast and find another provider with less nonsense and more reliable service !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22615040 Fri, 26 Jun 2009 12:23:04 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22610325 GyroCaptain : I thought about going Cogeco when I moved into my new apt..then they told me about the cap. The spanish woman on the cogeco phone quips "Well sir, a majority of our customers are just fine and dandy with 60 gigs..they check email and surf the web. Why do you need to download more than that?".

Yeah..if you live in the year 1997!!

So I joined TekSavvy. HD has never looked better!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22610325 Thu, 25 Jun 2009 16:29:28 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22590924 CanadianIron : nm]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22590924 Mon, 22 Jun 2009 12:35:12 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22557313 HaTHor : just cancelled my account. 10+ year customer here... waiting on my parents to cancell theirs as well(10+ for them as well). techsavvy here we come.

I wouldn't even have cared about the price increase.. but the fact is the caps are just too low. Legitimate downloaders are getting screwed. I'm going over cap each month downloading HD content through XBOX live.. downloading movie trailers all that.. 60GB is paltry now. And to gouge customers into giving you money for a cap that shouldn't be that low in the first place. tsk tsk

Cogeco get with the times. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22557313 Mon, 15 Jun 2009 22:56:10 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22548511 metrotitan : Oops, accidently left TWIT LIVE open last night before bed. Lucky Cogeco!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22548511 Sun, 14 Jun 2009 07:03:16 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22530921 anon : A lot of Cogeco's money is going into several dozens of new hubs across Ontario (over 100 I think), with some in the Niagara region. I believe they're slated to all be finished in the next year or so? Hopefully this helps with speeds in a lot of areas.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22530921 Wed, 10 Jun 2009 21:21:34 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22524624 hagbard72 : Don't know if anyone has already brought this up but the bandwidth limit is a way Cogeco can deal with a degradation of their customers connection speeds. Its not the best way of dealing with it.

They should have a limit, but not 60gb. Twice that is reasonable.

What they really need to do is invest in their infrastructure to account for their increased loads, they're clearly not doing that. When I called about my declining speeds back in December, they said it would be corrected in THREE MONTHS! Bad enough they would take three months to correct a service issue, worse is their method.

Its clear that some people are abusing the system (torrents, etc) but I don't see Cogeco out in my neighborhood putting in additional nodes either. Looking at my usage online, I come pretty close to the limit. The first time I exceed it and get sent the bill is the day I disconnect and join up with Techsavvy.

Oh, one more thing, $1.50/gb is more than it costs per gb for a hard drive, its aggressive to the point of being hostile. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22524624 Tue, 09 Jun 2009 20:37:05 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22513592 drewis : cancelled yesterday. 11 year customer and I'm 25 years old. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22513592 Mon, 08 Jun 2009 01:09:10 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22424206 xeroid2 : Well people .... the low caps will likely cause many of us to pay overage charges, in essence a substantial rate increase. Now if that wasn't sick enough, Cogeco has confirmed a rate increase on top of the UBB increase effective July.

It is seriously time to look at your options and vote with your wallet! Cogeco is showing little to NO respect for there customers.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22424206 Thu, 21 May 2009 17:36:19 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22383331 prairiesky : no body ever said it's impossible. It's just not financially viable. People go into business to make money. They make more money in higher density areas therefore those are the places that get the most attention.

If you would have read the article it clearly states that they are going into towns, not farms and to be able to get to the farms, they're hoping for stimulus money. So if they can't get the money, people probably won't get service unless they're in a town.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22383331 Wed, 13 May 2009 14:28:30 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22380117 urbanriot : I've got a few sites with 100+ people using Cogeco's enterprise service without any problems whatsoever. They're QoS'd properly in the event that 100+ people simultaneously decided to check a Youtube video, it might slow a bit but nobody has ever complained about download speeds, even with plenty of online radio streaming going. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22380117 Tue, 12 May 2009 21:45:12 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22379731 exseven : 50KB/s/user is fine for just browsing the internet or sending and receiving email. Remember that not as much time is spent sending the information as it is the user interpreting it (for text and images) and realistically not all users are going to be going full bore all day long all at the same time in an office environment.

You reselling to your neighbors != an office too incase you couldnt comprehend that part.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22379731 Tue, 12 May 2009 20:28:42 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22379498 Fireblade : If all 50 people are using it at the same time, the connection per user will be throttled at 36KB/Sec or worse. Investing in expensive equipment would get more juice out of the connection, but not much. Might as well just get fiber installed to your work place.
--
I love fish sticks. I love putting fish sticks in my mouth.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22379498 Tue, 12 May 2009 19:41:30 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22379456 xeroid2 :

said by Fireblade

:

It'll work if you throttle the connection at 50 KB/Sec and spend thousands on QoS routers.

So it NO GOOD then for an office with 50 or more computers on the net, as Cogeco says it is?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22379456 Tue, 12 May 2009 19:35:48 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22379310 Fireblade : It'll work if you throttle the connection at 50 KB/Sec and spend thousands on QoS routers.
--
I love fish sticks. I love putting fish sticks in my mouth.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22379310 Tue, 12 May 2009 19:02:18 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22379219 xeroid2 : The business unlimited bandwidth package at around $200 a month says it's good for companies who have 50 or more computers on the net. WOW ... does this mean I can become a reseller, order the package and wire up everyone on my street for unlimited bandwidth for let's say $20 a month :-)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22379219 Tue, 12 May 2009 18:44:28 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22378113 Gruesome :

said by Snickerdo

:

Apples and oranges. European municipalities cover a much smaller area, generally the CBD and the high density urban core. Toronto is municipality that was formed from the amalgamation of six municipalities with various levels of urban development. You can't make a comparison like this.

For the record, Toronto has some of the densest neighbourhoods in North America. In fact, St. Jamestown -is- the densest neighbourhood in North America.

Oh, and for the record, your data in Stockholm was wrong. Per wikipedia, the main core is 4,309 per/km. That's not much more than Toronto's 4000.

This whole argument on the cost of laying fibre and infrastructure is crap,
Look at this article on how small companies are rolling out Fiber to rural communities and having great success
»tinyurl.com/re79sb
It should be strongly noted that the same business people that go on about the expense are the same ones that said what they are doing in rural America was impossible!!

Thats Fiber to The Farm
FTF :)
"The standard traditional wisdom is 'Oh no you can't do that; impossible,'" Nulty noted. "'Can't make fiber work in rural areas. You've got to use some half-baked technology like WiFi or something like that." Au contraire, he told the audience. "It's actually significantly easier and cheaper to do fiber today than it was to do copper when our forefathers did it in the thirties."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22378113 Tue, 12 May 2009 15:32:43 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22372849 anon : What happened to us last month was we went over our 60GB and they sent us a warning, but we don't check our cogeco mail (and can't forward it, yadda yadda)...
When we had about 96GB, I got to a cogeco page where I had to confirm that I had gone over the limit.
We had no clue and called them, and they said if we went over another GB, to 97GB we were gonna get a 24h suspension.
If we were to go over another GB they were gonna cut it off totally.

But it might be different as off June 1st.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22372849 Mon, 11 May 2009 17:15:38 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22372506 Fireblade : It is pretty stupid, especially when worded like that. I believe Comcast got sued for something like this.
--
I love fish sticks. I love putting fish sticks in my mouth.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22372506 Mon, 11 May 2009 16:15:59 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22372193 xeroid2 : COGECO OFFICIAL ANSWER:

What happens after the max charge? Do we still get cut off? If so, when?

The max charge is not a charge to get “unlimited” usage. Customers have to respect their monthly limits. The exact suspension policy is confidential.

WHAT ??? SUSPENSION POLICY IS CONFIDENTIAL ???]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22372193 Mon, 11 May 2009 15:16:41 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22369329 katmeef : *edit(s..)* I am going to withdraw from the billing topic, I do not feel I can add anything more useful that what I may have already stated. and it's very time consuming :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22369329 Sun, 10 May 2009 22:48:22 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22369315 exseven :

said by Snickerdo

said by katmeef

:

Snickerdo, if you're right and fiber is so cheap to lay in Canada, then why doesn't every third party DSL company have a DSLAM in every Bell CO?

enough to change the pricing structure?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22369315 Sun, 10 May 2009 22:44:42 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22369307 Snickerdo :

said by katmeef

:

Snickerdo, if you're right and fiber is so cheap to lay in Canada, then why doesn't every third party DSL company have a DSLAM in every Bell CO?

The fibre is already there, it was laid years ago. It's just a matter of hooking it up.

The issue is equipment costs. Do you have any idea how much a DSLAM costs? How about how much Bell charges for rent in a CO?
--
I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22369307 Sun, 10 May 2009 22:42:33 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22369258 katmeef : Snickerdo, if you're right and fiber is so cheap to lay in Canada, then why doesn't every third party DSL company have a DSLAM in every Bell CO?

If that were the case, they could continue to offer uncapped DSL after Bell wins their decision.

*edit* and why shouldn't bell be able to say that third party needs to install their own equip if they want unlimited BW? Without their own DSLAMs in the COs, BELL is stuck backhauling the data, no??]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22369258 Sun, 10 May 2009 22:31:08 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22369111 Snickerdo :

said by Mysmasken :

Why is this whining? I'm just stating the obvious - most of the communicative technology is way behind and more expensive here. Nothing against Canada as a country, I love it here, I just don't see why everything has to be so much more expensive, that's all. Don't take it as an insult.
Someone compared the land masses, and like someone else pointed out, that argument doesn't hold up.
Sure, if they would make it available ALL over the country, it would make it more expensive, but I DO live in the largest city in Canada, not out in the boondocks.

Canada was way ahead by almost a decade when it came to first deploying broadband. That is pretty much the reason why we're now lagging behind. No one wants to pay to do it all over again when they already did it 15 years ago.
--
I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22369111 Sun, 10 May 2009 21:58:36 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22369078 anon :

said by "prairiesky" :
I'm using stockholm because only 2 pages back, someone was whining how in sweden he can get an unlimited fiber connection for $45/month.

Why is this whining? I'm just stating the obvious - most of the communicative technology is way behind and more expensive here. Nothing against Canada as a country, I love it here, I just don't see why everything has to be so much more expensive, that's all. Don't take it as an insult.
Someone compared the land masses, and like someone else pointed out, that argument doesn't hold up.
Sure, if they would make it available ALL over the country, it would make it more expensive, but I DO live in the largest city in Canada, not out in the boondocks.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22369078 Sun, 10 May 2009 21:51:00 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22368886 Snickerdo : Apples and oranges. European municipalities cover a much smaller area, generally the CBD and the high density urban core. Toronto is municipality that was formed from the amalgamation of six municipalities with various levels of urban development. You can't make a comparison like this.

For the record, Toronto has some of the densest neighbourhoods in North America. In fact, St. Jamestown -is- the densest neighbourhood in North America.

Oh, and for the record, your data in Stockholm was wrong. Per wikipedia, the main core is 4,309 per/km. That's not much more than Toronto's 4000.
--
I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22368886 Sun, 10 May 2009 21:10:19 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22368859 prairiesky : population density of Toronto: 3939 inh./sq. km
Population density of Stockholm: 6,388.06/km²

both from wikipedia.

It's obviously going to be cheaper on a per person basis to roll it out in stockholm. These are both "high density" urban centers, but obviously one is more dense than the other.

I'm using stockholm because only 2 pages back, someone was whining how in sweden he can get an unlimited fiber connection for $45/month. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22368859 Sun, 10 May 2009 21:04:22 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22368724 Snickerdo :

said by prairiesky

:

when did I say it wasn't feasible. My whole argument was that it costs more to run the cable longer distances and that densely populated in one country isn't the same as the other.
You your self just admitted that the cost may not make it feasible. case and point

I said that it may not be feasible simply because Bellus doesn't want to outlay the cash. There is no financial disadvantage to doing it compared to, in your example, Sweden.

In fact, Canada had DSL and cable modems -years- before most countries - including the USA. The first commercial DSL deployments were in Saskatchewan. If we were such a large, barren, cold mass of rock, do you think we would have had DSL and cable 5-10 years before anyone else in the world did?

This is actually the reason why Canadian companies won't do anything like this. They were early adopters, deploying technology years before anyone else did. They're now earning a return on their investment. Countries in Europe, most of Asia and - to an extent - the USA all waited a while longer to do this were able to use better technology when the deployment was done, which gives the appearance that they are somehow better than us. What will happen is that a few years from now when the investment has been returned and the communications companies are ready to re-invest, the rest of the world will be bitching and moaning about how their companies suck and are refusing to invest in new technology, and citing Canada as what they wish they had.

That's just the way it works.
--
I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22368724 Sun, 10 May 2009 20:34:34 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22368723 Fireblade :

said by prairiesky

:

You your self just admitted that the cost may not make it feasible. case and point

He said it's up for debate, durrrrrr.
--
I love fish sticks. I love putting fish sticks in my mouth.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22368723 Sun, 10 May 2009 20:34:25 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22368703 prairiesky : when did I say it wasn't feasible. My whole argument was that it costs more to run the cable longer distances and that densely populated in one country isn't the same as the other.

You your self just admitted that the cost may not make it feasible. case and point]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22368703 Sun, 10 May 2009 20:28:43 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22368692 Snickerdo :

said by prairiesky

:

so what you're saying is that I'm wrong?
Fiber isn't installed on a per length basis and that longer runs don't cost more?
Now, most people live in the suburbs as opposed to down towns, these are still single family dwellings which differs greatly from Europe which is more apartments and multi family dwellings.
It's really had to argue that our population densities even compare to those of europe.

Yes, I am totally 100% saying you are wrong and calling you on your bullshit.

The cost to run point-to-point fibre between NOCs is minuscule compared to the cost involved to deploy to CEPs, not to mention the fact that Canada had the first all-fibre national backbone in the world and continues to have one of the best NOC-to-NOC fibre networks anywhere.

The investment comes from deploying to the end-users. In Canada, the vast majority of end users live in cities, and on-average these cities are (considerably) denser and more compact than American cities. Your argument that fibre isn't feasible in Canada due to our massive landmass in an incorrect one and not at all based on fact. Whether or not it is financially feasible is still up for debate, but the argument that it can't be done because of our size is ignorant and incorrect.

So, simply put, if Verizon in the US can do it, there is absolutely no reason why Bellus couldn't do it here - that is, if they wanted to.
--
I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22368692 Sun, 10 May 2009 20:25:33 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22368628 Fireblade : He's basically saying that yes, you're wrong. Just because Canada is massive, doesn't mean every part of it is inhabited, or even inhabitable. The majority of Canadians live in a small density, perfect for fiber optic services. Can Jethro living in Hicksville get fiber? No, but the hundreds of thousands of people living in a density area can, affordably. Fiber isn't for everyone, but saying that it's significantly more expensive to deploy in Canada over Sweden is wrong and ignorant. Installing fiber is expensive and there's a very huge risk involved - why do you think Verizon is the only company in the States offering it to the home?
--
I love fish sticks. I love putting fish sticks in my mouth.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22368628 Sun, 10 May 2009 20:09:39 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22368555 prairiesky : so what you're saying is that I'm wrong?

Fiber isn't installed on a per length basis and that longer runs don't cost more?

Now, most people live in the suburbs as opposed to down towns, these are still single family dwellings which differs greatly from Europe which is more apartments and multi family dwellings.

It's really had to argue that our population densities even compare to those of europe.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22368555 Sun, 10 May 2009 19:47:33 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22368469 CanadianIron : Good point that fiber is expensive. Often things that are much much better cost a lot more.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22368469 Sun, 10 May 2009 19:17:37 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22368452 Snickerdo :

said by prairiesky

:

sweden has 10 million people in 173,00 sq miles
Canada has 33 million people 3,855,081 sq miles
so knowing that, is it really that difficult to see why it's harder to run cable to people in Canada, than it is in Sweden?

Considering that over 80% of the Canadian population lives in high-density urban centres and the majority of our landmass is uninhabited, your argument holds no weight what so ever. This argument is often used by people who have no understanding of how fibre is deployed and feel it is their duty to be apologists for the cablecos/telcos when they do something stupid or refuse to invest in new technology.
--
I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22368452 Sun, 10 May 2009 19:12:26 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22368438 prairiesky : sweden has 10 million people in 173,00 sq miles

Canada has 33 million people 3,855,081 sq miles

so knowing that, is it really that difficult to see why it's harder to run cable to people in Canada, than it is in Sweden?

logically, fiber installation costs are based on length, we are spread out more, therefore it costs more money to cover the same amount of people. THIS MEANS IT COSTS MORE TO SERVE CANADIAN CUSTOMERS

If you're working from home and are using it for business, but are using a basic home package, don't complain. If you had an actual office, you'd be paying for a business package and a home package. I'm sure you'd have enough bandwidth them.

bandwidth isn't an entitlement, it's a service that you pay for. If you have issues paying for it, you are free to not use it. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22368438 Sun, 10 May 2009 19:07:02 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22368412 kushiro :

said by Mysmasken :

Instead we will go with a satelite dish, $37.99

Just out of curiosity, Mysmasken, what's your satellite provider and what channels are you getting for only $37.99? I've been trying to find a decent cable or sat provider and everything I find STARTS at about $50/month or more.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22368412 Sun, 10 May 2009 18:57:50 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22368027 katmeef :

said by Fireblade

:

Easier said than done!

As with infrastructure upgrades, yes.

you gotta work for good things, though :) (unless you're one of those insanely lucky people who are born into great wealth... but that's not me. i gotta work)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22368027 Sun, 10 May 2009 17:05:08 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22368016 Fireblade : Easier said than done!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22368016 Sun, 10 May 2009 17:01:26 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22367992 katmeef :

said by Fireblade

:

You're pretty clueless, you honestly think Bell is going to roll over and play dead? You assume these companies have millions to spend on infrastructure, WRONG - after Bell nickels and dimes them, they're probably making about $2-3 a month per customer.

...it's too much money?
One could always readjust their billing scheme if they found a need for more money to reinvest into ones company.

*edit* infrastructure investment is incredibly expensive, eh.. I'm glad we're in agreement on that point ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22367992 Sun, 10 May 2009 16:54:28 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22367972 Fireblade :

said by katmeef

:

I don't get it?
If they invested in their own infrastructure, they would only be riding Bell over the copper pair... What could bell do about it?

I assume those companies who already forked out to get their own DSLAMs are the same companies not overly concerned about the CRTC's pending decision.

You're pretty clueless, you honestly think Bell is going to roll over and play dead? You assume these companies have millions to spend on infrastructure, WRONG - after Bell nickels and dimes them, they're probably making about $2-3 a month per customer.

If these companies banded together, why would they invest into DSLAMS and CO's while still being forced to pay Bell 80% of their profits? It's stupid, they would have to lay fiber - but in the end they would fail because the CTRC is worthless and likes to protect Bell.

Companies understand they have no choice, if CRTC passes UBB - they're finished, they know they have to do something.
--
I love fish sticks. I love putting fish sticks in my mouth.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22367972 Sun, 10 May 2009 16:51:15 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22367913 katmeef :

said by Fireblade

:

A lot of them already have their own DSLAMS, if the third party DSL companies banded together and started laying fiber Bell would do the same and rape stomp them out.

I don't get it?
If they invested in their own infrastructure, they would only be riding Bell over the copper pair... What could bell do about it?

I assume those companies who already forked out to get their own DSLAMs are the same companies not overly concerned about the CRTC's pending decision.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22367913 Sun, 10 May 2009 16:34:26 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22367893 Fireblade :

said by katmeef

:

Couldn't the third party DSL companies just invest in their own infrastructure and install their own dSLAMs? or is that too much money?

A lot of them already have their own DSLAMS, if the third party DSL companies banded together and started laying fiber Bell would do the same and rape stomp them out.
--
I love fish sticks. I love putting fish sticks in my mouth.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22367893 Sun, 10 May 2009 16:27:29 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22367795 katmeef :

said by Mysmasken :

I want to start with thanking the people who understood my real point.

Well, the point is, whether I work or not, 60GB is not enough.
BECAUSE I'm working, my poor DH doesn't get to use the Internet at all, since I need every little bit we can get for work. If I didn't use Internet for work 60GB still wouldn't be enough. Seriously, for the two of us that would leave us with 1GB a day each. That's not a lot of YouTubing or whatever you might be doing.

Oh... I misunderstood your real point which, contrary to your original post, had nothing to do with working from home..
ResiHSI is enough for me (especially now that I'm able to legitimately exceed the cap of 60G if I want) and many others, so I can't feel sympathy for your plight. If you are sure you do not want a commercial package, have you considered ResiPRO?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22367795 Sun, 10 May 2009 15:55:52 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22367754 katmeef :

said by dad_of_3

:

IF the CRTC sides with Bell regarding wholesalers, then there isn't a lot of choices left for those that need more bandwidth than the paltry amount being allocated by Cogeco...

Couldn't the third party DSL companies just invest in their own infrastructure and install their own dSLAMs? or is that too much money?

I know COGECO spends allot on infrastructure... ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22367754 Sun, 10 May 2009 15:41:11 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22367527 peterboro1 :

said by dad_of_3

:

IF the CRTC sides with Bell regarding wholesalers, then there isn't a lot of choices left for those that need more bandwidth than the paltry amount being allocated by Cogeco...

Like I posted earlier in the thread there will be options but they will take some research.
I found an excellent one in Nexicom but I have to cross my fingers they don't join the bandwagon.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22367527 Sun, 10 May 2009 14:38:23 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22367099 dad_of_3 : IF the CRTC sides with Bell regarding wholesalers, then there isn't a lot of choices left for those that need more bandwidth than the paltry amount being allocated by Cogeco...

IF the CRTC DOES NOT side with Bell, then Cogeco will be in a sticky situation....

I believe Cogeco is banking on the CRTC siding with BELL, I believe they wouldn't even consider UBB if they didn't think the CRTC will side with BELL. Basically Cogeco is jumping on the Bell bandwagon, albeit a bit prematurly.

We'll see....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22367099 Sun, 10 May 2009 12:32:15 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22366898 anon : I want to start with thanking the people who understood my real point.

Well, the point is, whether I work or not, 60GB is not enough.
BECAUSE I'm working, my poor DH doesn't get to use the Internet at all, since I need every little bit we can get for work. If I didn't use Internet for work 60GB still wouldn't be enough. Seriously, for the two of us that would leave us with 1GB a day each. That's not a lot of YouTubing or whatever you might be doing.

You can't just sit there and complain to your friends and family, let Cogeco know about your displeasure.
Sure, they didn't care much about the ONE email I sent, but if enough people cancel their business with them they will care.

Paying 160 dollars a month for phone, TV and capped Internet is insane to me. Like I said I translate movies, because I'm originally from Sweden.
The best cable package, with 60-100 Mbit per second (unlimited of course) AND telephone in Sweden is 45 dollars a month.

I don't understand why everything that has to do with communication has to be so much more expensive here than in Europe, is each Mbit bigger and heavier here? No.

Don't leave people believing "this is how it is, so stop complaining", because it doesn't have to be this way.

And for whoever will ask me to move back to Sweden if I'm not happy here, that is not an option. In every other matter I love Canada, I just don't like being raped over technology... But then again I'm from Pirate land :P]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22366898 Sun, 10 May 2009 11:32:26 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22366462 anon : If that happens then Gixxer will have to start telling everyone to switch dial-up!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22366462 Sun, 10 May 2009 09:30:28 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22366581 anon :

said by katmeef

:

If my understanding is correct.... (and it very well might not be, I really dont care to keep up on DSL tech) If bell gets their way then third party DSL carriers (who don't install their own DSLAMs in every Bell CO) will be subject to caps too...

I believe Velcom has their own dslams.
There are several threads about their service:
»Post you Velcom ISP problems here.
»Avoid Velcome
If Bell gets their way I do worry about cap creep. It will be so tempting with little competition don't you think?
I can't stand the thought of Bell getting one cent out of met though, even a dry loop fee. Makes my skin crawl.
I agree he should have a commercial account form his employer and if he is freelance more so for the tax implications.
I suspect his story just like the Velcom complaints though.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22366581 Sun, 10 May 2009 09:26:36 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22366459 metrotitan :

said by Mysmasken :

Last month we had our internet cut off because of over usage.

Mysmasken, how much bandwidth did you use last month?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22366459 Sun, 10 May 2009 08:24:48 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22366305 katmeef :

said by Fireblade

:

Or switch to DSL, save over $50/month on internet alone and never get disconnected because their bandwidth plan is... Say it with me now, I'll use caps to get my point across better... UNLIMITED! I think he'll prefer that option better to yours - but thanks for playing.

If my understanding is correct.... (and it very well might not be, I really dont care to keep up on DSL tech) If bell gets their way then third party DSL carriers (who don't install their own DSLAMs in every Bell CO) will be subject to caps too...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22366305 Sun, 10 May 2009 05:51:01 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22366292 Fireblade : Or switch to DSL, save over $50/month on internet alone and never get disconnected because their bandwidth plan is... Say it with me now, I'll use caps to get my point across better... UNLIMITED! I think he'll prefer that option better to yours - but thanks for playing.
--
I love fish sticks. I love putting fish sticks in my mouth.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22366292 Sun, 10 May 2009 05:32:39 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22366289 katmeef :

said by Fireblade

:

Hmmm... Blatantly obvious huh? So we're in agreeance that staying with Cogeco is equivalent to burning your own money?

haha nice try. no, it's blatantly obvious to me that someone who is working from home should use a commercial package, especially when using enough bandwidth to get suspended from the residential tier]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22366289 Sun, 10 May 2009 05:28:26 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22366283 Fireblade :

said by katmeef

:

I chose to state the blatantly obvious..

Hmmm... Blatantly obvious huh? So we're in agreeance that staying with Cogeco is equivalent to burning your own money?
--
I love fish sticks. I love putting fish sticks in my mouth.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22366283 Sun, 10 May 2009 05:26:36 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22366277 katmeef :

said by Fireblade

:

He asked for one reason to stay with Cogeco, or did you miss that?

I seen it. I chose to state the blatantly obvious..]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22366277 Sun, 10 May 2009 05:22:15 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22366276 Fireblade :

said by exseven

:

if he uses it for work, his work should pay for it?

Or Cogeco can stop being a bunch of greedy old gas bags and offer affordable bandwidth packages.

said by exseven

:

also, but then you have to live in hamilton ;)

Awesome new job, don't feel like commuting.
--
I love fish sticks. I love putting fish sticks in my mouth.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22366276 Sun, 10 May 2009 05:22:00 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22366272 exseven : if he uses it for work, his work should pay for it?

also, but then you have to live in hamilton ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22366272 Sun, 10 May 2009 05:14:22 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22366265 Fireblade :

said by katmeef

said by Mysmasken :

I work from home translating movies and everyday I have to download movies from the office, gig after gig. Totally legit.

As you are working from home, it would seem appropriate to upgrade to a commercial tier of service.

He asked for one reason to stay with Cogeco, or did you miss that? Upgrading to a commercial account will cost him more monthly.

said by Mysmasken :

Tell me one reason to stay with Cogeco...

There isn't one, DSL with MLPPP has the same speeds with unlimited bandwidth for a slightly lower cost. I've already got rid of their TV and switched to sat, if DSL is available in your area at the full advertised speed - what are you waiting for? I'm moving back to Hamilton in a few months - know what that means? MOUNTAIN CABLE BABY 7/1 - Unlimited for under $45.
--
I love fish sticks. I love putting fish sticks in my mouth.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22366265 Sun, 10 May 2009 04:56:17 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22366122 katmeef :

said by Mysmasken :

I work from home translating movies and everyday I have to download movies from the office, gig after gig. Totally legit.

As you are working from home, it would seem appropriate to upgrade to a commercial tier of service.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22366122 Sun, 10 May 2009 02:23:09 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22366037 anon : Last month we had our internet cut off because of over usage. We had no idea as we don't check our Cogeco Email (which can't be forwarded).
We had to upgrade to a higher package for the month being, and pay extra money.

I work from home translating movies and everyday I have to download movies from the office, gig after gig. Totally legit.
My DH likes to stream movies from YouTube and other sites, totally legit. This is stupid.

I know Cogeco don't care, but this was the final straw and we're taking our business elsewhere.

Right now we pay over 160 dollars a month to Cogeco.
Instead we will go with a satelite dish, $37.99
ADSL Dry (cause we won't have a phone) »www.velcom.ca $39.95
Skype unlimited worldwide calls $12.95
A VoIP 905-number, so people can call us locally to Skype, $5 dollars.

For under $100 we'll get everything we had with Cogeco and more! Free worldwide calls (perfect since my family is in Europe) and unlimited internet.

Tell me one reason to stay with Cogeco...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22366037 Sun, 10 May 2009 01:42:27 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22365801 katmeef : Bandwidth usage is tracked by the calendar month.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22365801 Sun, 10 May 2009 00:01:25 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22365184 pat_lc2000 : Have they ever said when the usage billing period is from. Is it based on month or based on your billing period?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22365184 Sat, 09 May 2009 20:58:34 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22350163 xeroid2 : »www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/new···s-matter]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22350163 Wed, 06 May 2009 18:05:55 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22345970 bbuchanan :

said by urbanriot

said by Peter Principle :

Example of tariff exempt option for people (there are more in other areas luckily);
»www.nexicom.net/residential/internet/dsl.php

How are you able to determine they're tariff exempt?

Service from the Host in Peterborough is exempt from what Bell is currently filing.

We use our own DSLAM and connectivity into the CO. The *only* thing that we get from Bell is the copper pair going from the CO to the residence/business. Bell is not attempting to put bandwidth caps/restrictions on the actual copper pair.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22345970 Tue, 05 May 2009 23:02:59 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22342551 anon :

said by urbanriot

said by Peter Principle :

Example of tariff exempt option for people (there are more in other areas luckily);
»www.nexicom.net/residential/internet/dsl.php

How are you able to determine they're tariff exempt?

It depends on how their network is set up. Nexicom and Primus are two examples.
It depends on backhaul over Bell's network or if in the COs they have installed their own DSLAMs.
I don't know how you get that info but some threads have some good examples like this one;

»How far back is the "Last Mile"?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22342551 Tue, 05 May 2009 12:49:40 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22342388 urbanriot :

said by Peter Principle :

Example of tariff exempt option for people (there are more in other areas luckily);
»www.nexicom.net/residential/internet/dsl.php

How are you able to determine they're tariff exempt? ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22342388 Tue, 05 May 2009 12:20:54 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22341962 anon :

said by vuarra

said by Peter Principle :

I realize you say Teksavvy for DSL.
I forgot to mention that you should take into consideration the new CRTC tariff that means you will be by default a Bell capped customer.
There are some resellers that will remain free of the new tariff.

Proof, please, or delete your message, anonymous user.

Example of tariff exempt option for people (there are more in other areas luckily);
»www.nexicom.net/residential/internet/dsl.php

CRTC pending decision that means resellers end users abide by Bells usage UBB structure by default;
»www.crtc.gc.ca/8740/eng/2009/b2_7181.htm

Anon trolls can't delete their message, feel free to point out mistakes and we can offer retractions.
One has to be living under a rock not to see the implications of this decision.
One that Cogeco is silently cheering for as well.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22341962 Tue, 05 May 2009 11:04:16 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22341295 Gruesome :

said by Methos

said by Peter Principle :

Shocking, the first post in months that is seriously considering Bell. How sad.
Cruise the Bell and Teksavvy areas for an idea of what you are in for.

You think I want to go with Bell or Teksavvy? NO.
I've been with cogeco for 10 years, and I love it...
I've read the forums trust me, I have seen their problems... My point is why should I pay $119.95 on the pro package to download 150gb per month when I can get 200gb for $29.95 or unlimited for $39.95? I can deal with a few hic-ups and slower speeds for that.
I'll switch the rest of my services just out of spite.

Phone is no big deal, I make very very few long distance calls anyway, and as for cable T.V., as long as I get to watch Spike TV and Sports, I'm happy.

I'm not going to blindly throw away money just because I download alot.

If people are going over and getting hit with $30 charges, why not get both Teksavvy AND Cogeco,
Use your Teksavvy account for non time sensitive downloads and use Cogeco for stuff you want in a hurry
If your downloading that much its about the same cost
I ran Teksavvy and Cogeco side by side for months and finally decided that I just needed TS but for others they might want both
If you had Cogeco Standard thats 39.95 + Teksavvy Unlimmitted is 39.95
Thats $80 and you never need worry about a cap and you get the speeed you want for Games or other
(unless bell gets its way with Tariffs)

Even if Teksavvy in your neighbourhood is slow shouldn't matter that much if you can hop on Cogeco and get that game down quick]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22341295 Tue, 05 May 2009 08:31:12 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22341237 Gruesome : There is a tariff before the CRTC to implement caps on Bells wholesale clients, but it has not been approved.
As of today caps are anywhere from 200 to unlimited

said by vuarra

Proof, please, or delete your message, anonymous user.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22341237 Tue, 05 May 2009 08:15:41 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22340986 vuarra :

Proof, please, or delete your message, anonymous user.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22340986 Tue, 05 May 2009 05:11:59 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22340710 anon : I realize you say Teksavvy for DSL.
I forgot to mention that you should take into consideration the new CRTC tariff that means you will be by default a Bell capped customer.
There are some resellers that will remain free of the new tariff.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22340710 Tue, 05 May 2009 01:37:16 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22340670 anon : At least you know what you are walking into then.
I meant how sad that Cogeco's honeymoon is over and people are actually considering Bell.
If you switch follow the advice in multiple threads and don't enter a contract with Bell.
Depending on where you are there are better alternatives than Bell for caps, speeds and mostly customer service. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22340670 Tue, 05 May 2009 01:18:19 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22340505 Methos :

said by Peter Principle :

Shocking, the first post in months that is seriously considering Bell. How sad.
Cruise the Bell and Teksavvy areas for an idea of what you are in for.

said by Methos

said by ObservationWins :

And go to who? The other cable ISP's who charge for overages? They all do it.

said by alamarco

:

Teksavvy has no caps, though depending on if Bell's bill gets passed that could all change.

go with Teksavvy for my Internet (for now) and Bell for my phone and T.V.

Shocking, the first post in months that is seriously considering Bell. How sad.
Cruise the Bell and Teksavvy areas for an idea of what you are in for.
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22340301 Mon, 04 May 2009 23:32:14 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22339994 xeroid2 : Hey ... the CEO only make 1.5 million a year and needs a raise !!! :-)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22339994 Mon, 04 May 2009 22:17:40 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22339648 Fireblade :

said by Methos

:

Guess that's not quite enough hey?

You should give them the shirt off your back. Actually in a couple of months they'll take that too!
--
I love fish sticks. I love putting fish sticks in my mouth.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22339648 Mon, 04 May 2009 21:02:58 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22339458 Methos :

said by ObservationWins :

And go to who? The other cable ISP's who charge for overages? They all do it.

said by alamarco

:

Teksavvy has no caps, though depending on if Bell's bill gets passed that could all change.

There is your answer... for now.

I will not pay Cogeco $163 a month only for them to rip me off even more for going over my cap by a couple gb.

It's pure BS!! Cogeco should be going ofter the morons who go over their cap by 300gb and nail them to the wall... not me who goes over by a couple gb every month but causes ZERO network degradation... I do ALL my downloading between midnight and 6:30 am.

No If Cogeco charges me for going over by a couple gb I'll go with Teksavvy for my Internet (for now) and Bell for my phone and T.V. I know alot of other people will too, hopefully they lose more money from dropped customers then they gain from people downloading 61 gb per month.

Taking a look at my bills, I've made a rough guess that I've paid cogeco between $18,000 - $20,000 in the 10 years I have been with them, maybe more with all the PPV. Guess that's not quite enough hey?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22339458 Mon, 04 May 2009 20:21:25 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22339361 Snickerdo :

said by Steve

:

I hear dialup has no caps ;-)

Sure it does, it's just in the form of time rather than data transfer. :p]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22339361 Mon, 04 May 2009 19:57:00 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22339358 alamarco : Teksavvy has no caps, though depending on if Bell's bill gets passed that could all change.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22339358 Mon, 04 May 2009 19:56:41 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22339341 Steve :

said by ObservationWins :

And go to who? The other cable ISP's who charge for overages? They all do it.

I hear dialup has no caps ;-)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22339341 Mon, 04 May 2009 19:53:45 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22339205 anon :

said by Methos

:

Wow. I have Been a cogeco customer since about 1999 when it was the @home network. I love the service, love the speed, I have my Cable T.V., Phone and Internet through Cogeco. If I get charged 1 penny because I go over my cap a little bit I will COMPLETELY drop Cogeco like a hot potato.

And go to who? The other cable ISP's who charge for overages? They all do it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22339205 Mon, 04 May 2009 19:27:23 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22338882 Methos : Wow. I have Been a cogeco customer since about 1999 when it was the @home network. I love the service, love the speed, I have my Cable T.V., Phone and Internet through Cogeco. If I get charged 1 penny because I go over my cap a little bit I will COMPLETELY drop Cogeco like a hot potato. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22338882 Mon, 04 May 2009 18:18:57 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22322481 corkz : edit]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22322481 Fri, 01 May 2009 02:07:26 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22316841 Shamans :

said by Fireblade

:

I would run a small community fiber to 15-20 houses on my street from my house if people we're actually interested, they're not unfortunately. I've been quoted $1500 installation to my house, $450 for my own equipment, then $850/month for a 200mbit symmetrical line. Could charge everyone $40 a month for unlimited service then an extra $5/month to cover peering costs. I've ran a few commercial fiber projects when I worked at an IT company. It's not difficult to setup, just expensive but worth it in the end.

How do you find companies that do fiber installations? (even if it's commercial)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22316841 Wed, 29 Apr 2009 23:56:37 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22314297 Fireblade : I would run a small community fiber to 15-20 houses on my street from my house if people we're actually interested, they're not unfortunately. I've been quoted $1500 installation to my house, $450 for my own equipment, then $850/month for a 200mbit symmetrical line. Could charge everyone $40 a month for unlimited service then an extra $5/month to cover peering costs. I've ran a few commercial fiber projects when I worked at an IT company. It's not difficult to setup, just expensive but worth it in the end.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22314297 Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:04:02 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22314156 xeroid2 : Not sure we would be allowed to run our wire on existing Hydro poles. There's already Hydro, Bell and Cogeco putting enough weight on the poles. Not to worry though, as technology develops, there won't be a need for poles. :D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22314156 Wed, 29 Apr 2009 14:38:33 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22309681 Shamans : You guys are talking about data centers where it's cheaper to deliver bandwidth to.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22309681 Tue, 28 Apr 2009 18:37:21 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22308516 Fireblade : I'd rather pay a third party to host my crap for $3.50 / month with over 300GB of monthly transfer.

»order.1and1.com/xml/order/Hostin···f=Static]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22308516 Tue, 28 Apr 2009 15:11:26 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22308509 xeroid2 : Cogeco will host your website and give you 96 GB BANDWIDTH for 14.99 a month. And you get a whole host of other services for your 14.99. Guess that answers what bandwidth is really worth. This UBB is a cash grab and our governments need to step in. Internet services are quickly becoming a necessity (not a luxury) in our society.

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From $14.99/month ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22308509 Tue, 28 Apr 2009 15:09:51 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22308501 Fireblade : Nope, it's been 640 for a loooong time, be nice if they bumped it up to at least 800.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22308501 Tue, 28 Apr 2009 15:08:17 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22308411 Al_Gore : Am I completely wrong or in the middle of all this did cogeco drop their upload speed down too?? »www.cogeco.ca/en/high-speed-internet-_o.html

for standard wasn't it always 1mb up?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22308411 Tue, 28 Apr 2009 14:52:33 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22299295 Fireblade : Excellent article, if anyone thinks this isn't a cash grab is obviously on Cogeco's payroll.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22299295 Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:30:02 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22298578 anon :

said by Edhick

:

With so many videos in HD now the bandwidth usage is going to climb and a normal movies are 2 to 4 gb but a hd movie is up to 10 gb. What happens if you unload a few hd movies by accented that will add up to a lot of money and bandwidth fast. The cable companies told investors for a simple upgrade of $6.85 they could double the bandwidth capacity to each home, but that not going to make them a few extra hundreds a year. Look up the Internet speeds in Japan 150 mb per second for 60 bucks. Anyone upset by new Internet meter billing should read this article by the New York Times.
»www.nytimes.com/2009/04/20/busin···isp.html

Another good one in the Economist,
»www.economist.com/science/displa···13562114]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22298578 Sun, 26 Apr 2009 14:54:18 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22293487 WarningU2 : Well ... came to this forum to see if I could find out anymore information (after receiving my letter of notice). Wow lots of information and anger. Thanks Krispy for taking the time to start this thread but shame on you Cogeco when you are making so much money already.

(steps on soap box ... )

I personally didn't think I came close to the max usage with a pro account and I don't most months ... however I have recently started to download the odd TV show to watch on the train in to work, and I see that when I do that I get close to 80% of my limit. If I was to download a dozen shows and a movie plus regular email and a game I play ... I'm over. :( Is that over use? Am I being a pig? I don't think so. I'd gladly pay more to continue to do that. Someone sharing 1000's of songs on a server sure - cut them off already but the odd few shows and a movie?

I think the comments here relating to Cogeco and other cable providers imposes limits to protect a source of revenue - TV cable provider and VOD purchases - are valid. Especially as this provides more revenue without having to upgrade and increase expenditures to increase bandwidth capability, at a time of economic uncertainty. Add in that conventional network TV is in a death spiral. I read in a recent Time article that the percentage of people that watch network TV now in the US and Canada is at it's lowest point. We're getting our entertainment from other sources. We're watching cable or more frequently downloading our shows over the internet or watching it through streaming video. If we download it ... no commercials. No commercials ... no revenue for a lot of people including the cable providers.

I can understand why Cogeco and others have to do usage billing BUT taking the overuse charge and from what I understand cutting you off still. That seems criminal. What's more criminal is this is just one salvo in a host of increase in fees. The penny ante game has been in play for a while, with "little" extra increases here and there. I can't remember now but I know I received another notice of increase recently for some channel I use. I think CTV and others were saying to CRTC recently that local TV channels need to be funded differently because advertising revenues are down. ie. Canwest closing CHCH-TV If the Cdn networks charge more to the Cogeco ...those fees will be passed back (with a little icing on top).

I can soon see Cogeco and all the others likely separating out the bill soon with distribution fees, line provider fees, local channel charges and everything else itemized so you can't tell what is what. Ever look at your hydro or gas bill lately? Baffle them with numbers is the way to go.

But I digress ..another way to look at it ... what usage billing really means, is that it limits not just the bandwidth usage but my personal freedom to choose what access I have to information and entertainment. How long before someone goes to the Supreme court with a Human Rights case? I say in jest (partly) but stranger things have happened.

(steps off soap box ... finished rant)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22293487 Sat, 25 Apr 2009 07:47:25 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22293478 rosscraig : So I have nothing to worry about if I go over my limit in April and May? I have been restricting myself as I am at 85%.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22293478 Sat, 25 Apr 2009 07:41:15 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22293455 Filmmaker :

said by Krispy

:

...
1. When?

For April and May you’ll see usage charges on your bill BUT they’ll be credited back to you which means we will not start charging until June 1st. This is to give you all an idea of what your usage is to help you prepare

...
8. Where can I check my bandwidth?

»https://selfcare.cogeco.com – as you’ve seen in other threads we’ve got a new meter which will hopefully meet your needs a bit better than our older version, that should be fully operational shortly once we resolve issues discovered yesterday

...
EDIT NOTE: Edited my mistake in #2

Accounts that are paid through direct bank withdrawal do not normally receive monthly statements. Will you be sending out the aforementioned invoices to those accounts as well as the regular billing accounts for the next few months so we can see what our usage is running and what any surcharges may have been?

While it's certainly understandable that the era of unlimited fixed-fee usage may need to pass, the idea that service may be cut off at some arbitrary over-usage limit has been reached is less understandable. As long as the user is willing to keep paying the overage fees for the bandwidth he has actually used, there should never be a cap imposed. In an era where telecommuting is being actively encouraged, home offices are routine, primary telephonic communication is shifting away from POTS, reliance on the internet for home security, personal safety, and medical monitoring is proliferating, ANY outage or withdrawal of service can result in job loss, financial disaster, an inability to conduct daily affairs such as paying bills or submitting schoolwork, and could even prove to be life-threatening. The Internet is not merely a medium of personal entertainment such as is cable TV, yet I'm afraid the cable vendors have not realized that they aren't purely an entertainment business selling a discretionary product any more. Internet service has become an essential service, necessary for economic, and in some cases physical, survival in our society. As such there needs to be a mechanism where it is possible for a user to have as much bandwidth as he needs without interruption, as long as he pays the tariff. The cable companies need to begin acting as a true common-carrier providing an essential service.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22293455 Sat, 25 Apr 2009 07:14:02 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22288079 peterboro1 : Time Warner got shot down on this now AT&T are going this route.
AT&T techs will be on strike soon. You would think they have enough on their plate.
Should be interesting.
»AT&T's Own Metered Billing Plans Move Forward]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22288079 Fri, 24 Apr 2009 01:14:31 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22285341 Hamilton1 :

said by xeroid2

:

Short sited indeed. Customers who do stay, will stay because they really don't have an alternative. But they will never forget and will be the first to leave as soon as a decent offer from another provider arrives at their door.

Heck I've been with Cogeco since they started out and this whole UBB, plus the HD audio issues have left a very bad taste in my mouth and when something better or comparable does come along I will be leaving as fast as I possibly can.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22285341 Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:11:58 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22284964 xeroid2 : After reading and researching as much as possible I have come to no other conclusion but to agree with those that have also concluded this is nothing short of Corporate Greed to the fullest extent.

No sense in even reading anything from Krispy as she is obviously towing the line on Cogeco's side. Can she be blamed? Morally speaking, Yes. I can tell you this, if I ( and probably some of you ) worked for Cogeco and could clearly see what is so obvious to a lot of us here, I would resign and go work for a corporation that is respected for it's moral values and behaviour.

Cogeco is NOT going to listen to us, and with the lack of solid competition, the number crunchers at Cogeco have already figured out they could lose X number of customers and still come out ahead. At the same time, it's a move to strangle the threat of internet VIDEO, TV and the like. Cogeco is contributing to hindering innovation on the internet. Not a good thing for our economy or future.

Short sited indeed. Customers who do stay, will stay because they really don't have an alternative. But they will never forget and will be the first to leave as soon as a decent offer from another provider arrives at their door.

Best suggestion was in the last post .... contact your members of Parliament and voice your concerns. Other than that, you must vote with your wallet. Do you need all those cable tv stations ... are there alternatives that are better? Are you using Cogeco's phone service, are there better alternatives. Do you use an average of 20 gigs a month but pay for 60? It's time to shop around.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22284964 Thu, 23 Apr 2009 14:01:31 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22279880 averagecdn : Lets call our MP's and MPP's and get something done about this. If the people in the US can get something than so should we...Fight Cogeco and Fight the monopolies.

»www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/1378···nternet/]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22279880 Wed, 22 Apr 2009 16:16:01 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22279076 Edhick : With so many videos in HD now the bandwidth usage is going to climb and a normal movies are 2 to 4 gb but a hd movie is up to 10 gb. What happens if you unload a few hd movies by accented that will add up to a lot of money and bandwidth fast. The cable companies told investors for a simple upgrade of $6.85 they could double the bandwidth capacity to each home, but that not going to make them a few extra hundreds a year. Look up the Internet speeds in Japan 150 mb per second for 60 bucks. Anyone upset by new Internet meter billing should read this article by the New York Times.
»www.nytimes.com/2009/04/20/busin···isp.html]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22279076 Wed, 22 Apr 2009 13:47:26 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22278735 anon : Cogeco also likes the roll over concept - except they have a different meaning than what you are saying.

Anyways it is extremely unlikely they implement that as it does nothing to increase average revenue per user. It is also not the industry standard.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22278735 Wed, 22 Apr 2009 12:48:55 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22278622 peterboro1 :

said by Seve

:

I say, if I've paid for 60Gig then I want that 60Gig to be available to me. I've paid for it so why can't I have it without paying for it twice ?
Roll forward the unused "Cap", if any, which has been paid for by the customer.

I also like the roll over concept. The highest I have ever gone is under 20.
So like the tree hugger carbon credit scheme I can sell the excess to some of you at a discount.
Works for me.

Also as Cogeco starts to leave a sour taste in the users mouth people are
going to be more likely to complain about other issues.

No longer will the average user shrug off things they did before as they were relatively happy with Cogeco.

Most Cogeco are former Bell customers and no company could be worse.

So the honeymoon may be over and the bean counters should factor in
these increased network and related service costs.

Edit: The xroid2 thread is a good example, as more customers pay more, they will demand more. If I stay at Motel 6 I will tolerate
certain things, If I stay at a 4 star resort (as I tend to do) then I will DEMAND better service.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22278622 Wed, 22 Apr 2009 12:32:07 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22278467 bricktoppp :

said by vuarra

:

It's still looks like most of us whiners are taking the wrong tack. We have to go after Cogeco's providers.

Also remember to complain to Cogeco's customer service and not just on these forums. Ask to speak to a supervisor to waste more of their time and money.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22278467 Wed, 22 Apr 2009 12:03:44 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22277220 vuarra : Funny... I got a letter from Giganews to get three months unlimited for half price.

But wait! I have Cogeco cable with tiny caps, so I had to say no... but I did ask them to talk to Cogeco about raising the caps so that Giganews can make money.

Seriously, I don't think that Cogeco cares what the customer thinks. It's more important to get the rest of the companies who supply Cogeco to put pressure on them to allow easier access to money.

It's still looks like most of us whiners are taking the wrong tack. We have to go after Cogeco's providers.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22277220 Wed, 22 Apr 2009 07:11:34 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22277025 Seve : This is just a rather bold attempt at a "Cash Grab"

They have a de facto monopoly protected by the CRTC, so what does Cogeco care.

By this time they know full well how much each customer is likely to use each month. If they don't, then who in the world would ?

The logic is; that they are charging you/me for 60Gig. This is whether you actually use it or not. However, if you go above that limit in any one month Cogeco wants to gouge you for it.

I say, if I've paid for 60Gig then I want that 60Gig to be available to me. I've paid for it so why can't I have it without paying for it twice ?

Roll forward the unused "Cap", if any, which has been paid for by the customer.

Why is it that any Company associated with the CRTC feels it's okay to keep robbing your customers ?

Do you not have any moral compass ?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22277025 Wed, 22 Apr 2009 04:09:07 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22276015 Shamans :

said by Hamilton1

said by exseven

:

You are getting 1gig for every $1.50 on standard up to 20gigs. After that anything extra is an added bonus

The problem is you can't have a bonus and then let someone decide that hey this guy can have up to 100Gb's and hey this guy can have 200Gb's.

Want a real time example, Gixxer who is on standard package got cut off after using about 270GB's worth of data but Shamans who is on a Business started states he has used up to 600% or 720Gb's so far this month, yet he still has an active account and is able to download.

So if your the customer would you think this type of event seems fair?

Cogeco needs to come up some type of a number that is equal and "FAIR FOR EVERYONE".

Oh and just some food for though, Rogers charges a $25 bitcap, but after that it is basically unlimited. (god don't I wish I had the choice to use them)

Well, I am on a different package and definitely on a node that has never, ever been congested for about 10 years now.

But yeah, it's definitely not fair in the sense of equality: I don't even have DSL access. ;)

With today's available content, I think anyone who can use 250+ GB every month is pretty fair (for heavy downloaders) but I hope they give plenty of advance warnings before getting cut off. I'm just going above and beyond because......well, someone has to find out where the limits are and I have the resources.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22276015 Tue, 21 Apr 2009 22:41:25 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22275943 x01 : Here's a little more fuel for the fire

Even the New York Times is calling bull to usage billing.

»www.nytimes.com/2009/04/20/busin···isp.html]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22275943 Tue, 21 Apr 2009 22:30:35 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22273523 Hamilton1 :

said by exseven

:

You are getting 1gig for every $1.50 on standard up to 20gigs. After that anything extra is an added bonus

The problem is you can't have a bonus and then let someone decide that hey this guy can have up to 100Gb's and hey this guy can have 200Gb's.

Want a real time example, Gixxer who is on standard package got cut off after using about 270GB's worth of data but Shamans who is on a Business starter states he has used up to 600% or 720Gb's so far this month, yet he still has an active account and is able to download.

So if your the customer would you think this type of event seems fair?

Cogeco needs to come up some type of a number that is equal and "FAIR FOR EVERYONE".

Oh and just some food for though, Rogers charges a $25 bitcap, but after that it is basically unlimited. (god don't I wish I had the choice to use them)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22273523 Tue, 21 Apr 2009 15:51:59 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22272940 exseven :

said by cogoexecread :

5. This is ridiculous. Many intelligent consumers like to know what they are getting for their money. Saying "confidential" and keeping customers in the dark just makes people angry and causes distrust.

You are getting 1gig for every $1.50 on standard up to 20gigs. After that anything extra is an added bonus]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22272940 Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:20:45 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22272925 anon : Network Security was, is, and will be responsible for account suspension "on a case by case basis" (translation: if you're on an oversold node you're screwed). After the billing department has finished tallying the monthly damage, they'll pass any problem accounts at the maximum monthly charge to the group capable of handling the specifics.

You work for Cogeco Network Security.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22272925 Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:18:45 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22272798 anon : "1. What's going on with commercial accounts?
“At the moment, we do not intend to implement the usage billing policy for commercial Internet packages.”

2. Why no raise in bitcaps overall?
Based on consumer’s consumption, the current bit cap limits are very generous and address the vast majority of our customers needs.

3. Why does it seem Pro accounts are more penalized?
They aren’t. The max charge is not a charge to get “unlimited” usage. Please refer to question 5 below.

4. Can the usage monitor be updated more frequently than once a day?
Having the data from the previous day is a standard indicator in the industry. We don’t plan to have more updates.

5. What happens after the max charge? Do we still get cut off? If so, when?
The max charge is not a charge to get “unlimited” usage. Customers have to respect their monthly limits. The exact suspension policy is confidential."

My reply:
1. Ok so then will commercial users be cut off as in the past?
2. For now maybe. In the future highly unlikely.
3. Depends on #5. Can't really debate this without knowing things that cogeco won't tell us.
4. The old usage meter was REAL TIME. The new usage meter is not. Saying "industry standard" while REMOVING functionality is a cop-out and really lame excuse.

5. This is ridiculous. Many intelligent consumers like to know what they are getting for their money. Saying "confidential" and keeping customers in the dark just makes people angry and causes distrust. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22272798 Tue, 21 Apr 2009 13:57:17 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22272627 anon :

said by Krispy

:

The responses in italics are as-is from the fingertips of our head office staff,

1. What's going on with commercial accounts?
“At the moment, we do not intend to implement the usage billing policy for commercial Internet packages.”

2. Why no raise in bitcaps overall?
Based on consumer’s consumption, the current bit cap limits are very generous and address the vast majority of our customers needs.

3. Why does it seem Pro accounts are more penalized?
They aren’t. The max charge is not a charge to get “unlimited” usage. Please refer to question 5 below.

4. Can the usage monitor be updated more frequently than once a day?
Having the data from the previous day is a standard indicator in the industry. We don’t plan to have more updates.

5. What happens after the max charge? Do we still get cut off? If so, when?
The max charge is not a charge to get “unlimited” usage. Customers have to respect their monthly limits. The exact suspension policy is confidential.

Legal found in the letter:
…these additional charges and maximum limit do not limit in any way our contractual right to temporarily suspend or restrict your access to your Internet service or to take any other actions deemed appropriate, if your consumption exceeds a reasonable limit, as determined by Cogeco in its sole judgment, or for any other violation of the AUP or T&Cs, in accordance with the terms of such AUP and T&Cs.

So any high usage people need to switch to commercial accounts ASAP.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22272627 Tue, 21 Apr 2009 13:28:42 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22272175 Krispy :

said by Snickerdo

:

Well, it could be one of three things...

1. She is in the loop, but chooses not to talk about it.
2. She isn't in the loop (which I sort of have a hard time beliving)

Actually it's #3,

3. The move to usage billing moves bitcaps out of her realm so she's not in the loop as part of her daily duties anymore and has a large task list filling that empty void so she simply doesn't have the time to be in the loop any more

As I just posted in another thread,

I will continue to keep my ears open and will report any clarification or further details I receive but at this point I'm going to start fading into the background on this debate as it's simply too much to keep on top of with my current workload and the nicer weather has reminded me that I have a life so I'm de-screening more these days on my off time. I'm not saying I'm going to ignore this subject, I just don't want anyone relying on me for further info since I can't guarantee when I'll be around and as I've mentioned elsewhere, this move to usage billing moves bitcaps out of my realm so I'm not entirely in the loop as part of my daily duties anymore -- I recommend checking out the contact info I posted in »Cogeco feedback / complaint email? if you want to ask questions or provide feedback on the new policy.

said by xeroid2

:

More than one Cogeco rep has reported that you WILL BE CUT OFF once you reach and pay the $30 worth of overage on a standard account. Call tech support right now .... find out for yourself.

It was also reported this will happen once the overage charges begin.

I've escalated this issue to those responsible for managing the call center agents so they're working on this but to my knowledge (and I've asked around) there is no specific policy about suspending people after they go over the max bitcap charge threshold and just for giggles I just called in anonymously to ask and see what they would say and I got the response that they'd escalate my question as they were unsure when the suspensions would occur so it's not EVERY rep saying this.
--
you can lead a horse to the water but you cannot make him drink...you can put a man through school but you cannot make him think --ben harper
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22272175 Tue, 21 Apr 2009 12:10:19 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22270035 urbanriot :

said by Darren_CA :

CoGeco hasn't posted much info about the VOIP service being offered!

What information are you looking for that's not posted on their web site - »www.cogeco.ca/en/residential_sho···p_o.html ?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22270035 Mon, 20 Apr 2009 23:37:01 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22269971 anon :

said by Darren_CA :

Does the tool used to track how much is downloaded work in real-time? or does it provide data usage a day behind?

A day behind. From the sound of things we should be happy if it's upped to every 12 hours :(.

said by Darren_CA :

According to vonage Canada to UK landlines are free! However, how can you therefore charge me for making that phone call, regaurdless whether I have gone over my cap-limit.

I think you misunderstood. Long distance rates from Canada to the UK are 6 cents per minute when calling with vonage, free if you're on an unlimited plan. You still have to pay for service. Vonage runs over TCP/IP so use will count towards your transfer total.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22269971 Mon, 20 Apr 2009 23:22:06 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22267474 anon : I am what could be described as a potential customer. Plan to move to Belleville at somepoint and seriously thinking about signing up with you guys when I get there. I do not have gripes or complaints but I do have questions that I am having problems finding answers to elsewhere.

1) Does the tool used to track how much is downloaded work in real-time? or does it provide data usage a day behind?
Why can't some one provide a simple tool that can monitor internet traffic for the consumers. I just like monitoring my bandwidth to try and prevent busting my cap-limit. I have a Family PC and a Laptop and a Wii for online gaming. How much bandwidth does this game console gobble up? :(

Okay next question...

I am thinking about getting rid of "Bell" telephone provider and switching to Vonage. I have various people long distance away from me, some in Canada and America but a few are back home in United Kingdom.
2) According to vonage Canada to UK landlines are free! However, how can you therefore charge me for making that phone call, regaurdless whether I have gone over my cap-limit.

CoGeco hasn't posted much info about the VOIP service being offered!

Just a little clarafication, please Krispy. :D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22267474 Mon, 20 Apr 2009 16:21:36 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22266560 DrunkenClam :

said by ReiX896

[
I disagree, I think the water analogy fits :

No, it really doesn't, and neither does comparing to hydro. These analogies are counterfactual.

Water and hydro generate and distribute their product to the consumer. Water has to be collected and refined and delivered and disposed of. Hydro has to be generated and delivered. So comparing this to bandwidth is not correct, because Cogeco does not actually generate any content like water and hydro do (except for their website), on the internet.

They are just a "big pipe", getting information generated by millions of users world wide, from point a to point b. This is why they should expand this pipe to fit users needs now and in the future. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22266560 Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:42:38 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22266428 katmeef :

said by urbanriot

:

I don't know why you're arguing about water when our issue is internet bandwidth pricing.

Leave it to me to go way off on a tangent.. It was an analogy which maybe somewhat applicable to this discussion, at least in the sense that a comparison can be drawn between factors which affect water flow to factors which affect data throughput.

Every analogy breaks down at some point, and I don't claim to understand the intricacies of finances beyond my own personal budget... In my fictional water-internet delivery system (where people water their lawn with bandwidth), I would be the guy in a room somewhere monitoring the pressure, condition and performance of all the pipes. :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22266428 Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:19:51 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22266008 ReiX896 :

said by urbanriot

:

I don't know why you're arguing about water when our issue is internet bandwidth pricing.

The problem is implementation. It would be far easier for Cogeco to implement off meter hours than it would be to implement a more difficult solution based on usage algorithms.

I apologize, I wasn't intending for it to seem like I was going off topic. But bandwidth pricing is similar in a way to the variations of pricing for water. With the exception that it shows the differences between regulated rates and free market rates.

Cogeco is using the advantage of providing internet bandwidth in the Free Market. And it is using the guise of competitive service and stability to acquire funds outside its packaged pricing. I disagree with this financial decision, It provides limited to no value in the packages provided by Cogeco. And the rates to which the company intends to charge at are inflated to a point beyond extreme. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22266008 Mon, 20 Apr 2009 12:15:21 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22265877 urbanriot : I don't know why you're arguing about water when our issue is internet bandwidth pricing.

said by ReiX896

:

Now, As for speed modification based on consumption of bandwidth. Its an interesting idea and honestly a solution that could work short-term.

The problem is implementation. It would be far easier for Cogeco to implement off meter hours than it would be to implement a more difficult solution based on usage algorithms. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22265877 Mon, 20 Apr 2009 11:52:17 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22265812 ReiX896 :

said by Shamans

:

I disapprove of using water pipes as a model since water gives people the idea that there's a single inherent value in water and that that value can be stored in water tanks, etc.

Bandwidth is a commodity that cannot be stored for later use. You either transfer it at the time, or you lose it forever at that moment of time. The water I get now, is no different than the water I will get tomorrow. Water is water. The data I require today will be different from the data I require tomorrow, and so there's no predictable way to store it.

Furthermore, isn't the volume of water in a pipe affected by the pressure/velocity of that water?

An ISP's internet performance is measured in several areas according to usage of that bandwidth:
1) Availability/Access/Reliability (what they call up-time)
2) Speed
3) Bandwidth Usage.

All 3 are intertwined since an ISP that is oversubscribed may be able to meet only a subset of those 3 qualities. The way Cogeco handles oversubscription will dictate how good an ISP it is. For heavy bandwidth usage users, they will have speed, but availability [if they get cut off] and bandwidth usage will suffer. If they could somehow disassociate availability from bandwidth usage and instead associate speed with bandwidth usage, then I believe that most people will be more amiable to Cogeco's bandwidth usage policies. They could, for example, instead of cutting off users mid-month, lower their speed to 1 Mbps until the end of the month.

I think a far better solution that may maximize Cogeco's resources is peak and off-peak metering.

I disagree, I think the water analogy fits as even in a regulated manner Water is provided at a variation in rates. And I believe the usage of Water Tanks was just another way of saying that even the internet has its limits (Mind you quite hard to reach said limit).

Secondly, I agree that bandwidth cannot be stored and provided late. But in natural conditions Water is not stored with in the household. As hot water tanks are filled periodically and use a set amount of water. It can be argued that it is storage but its on demand usage in my POV.

Now, As for speed modification based on consumption of bandwidth. Its an interesting idea and honestly a solution that could work short-term. As the issue of congestion is based on the network infrastructure. Cogeco user base expands and the network increases in strain and congestion. So even by switching heavy users to a light network the strain is still there.

I am just playing Devils Advocate as I want this debate to lead to a proper solution.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22265812 Mon, 20 Apr 2009 11:42:55 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22265359 A Lurker :

said by Krispy

:

2.Will you warn me before I go over?

Yes, we will send a notice to your Cogeco email address before you go over ~~and then as you’re going over we’ll redirect you to a webpage before we start charging so that you’re aware~~

This is perhaps a better place to ask my question. I'm on Soho, and well within my limits this month (actually haven't been over since I started in in Nov 2007). However, I notice that in March I was around 93% usage. I did not get any notice about being over 85%.

That concerns me. As this is how I got cut off the first time, not getting notices that I was over bandwith limits. The monitor page for my account says that they will be sent, but double-checking Junk/Trash/etc. I definitely did not get a notice in March.

(I'm trying to get in to do a partial screen shot, but it's slow as sin this morning - just the site, not my internet connection.)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22265359 Mon, 20 Apr 2009 10:18:50 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22265104 Shamans : I disapprove of using water pipes as a model since water gives people the idea that there's a single inherent value in water and that that value can be stored in water tanks, etc.

Bandwidth is a commodity that cannot be stored for later use. You either transfer it at the time, or you lose it forever at that moment of time. The water I get now, is no different than the water I will get tomorrow. Water is water. The data I require today will be different from the data I require tomorrow, and so there's no predictable way to store it.

Furthermore, isn't the volume of water in a pipe affected by the pressure/velocity of that water?

An ISP's internet performance is measured in several areas according to usage of that bandwidth:
1) Availability/Access/Reliability (what they call up-time)
2) Speed
3) Bandwidth Usage.

All 3 are intertwined since an ISP that is oversubscribed may be able to meet only a subset of those 3 qualities. The way Cogeco handles oversubscription will dictate how good an ISP it is. For heavy bandwidth usage users, they will have speed, but availability [if they get cut off] and bandwidth usage will suffer. If they could somehow disassociate availability from bandwidth usage and instead associate speed with bandwidth usage, then I believe that most people will be more amiable to Cogeco's bandwidth usage policies. They could, for example, instead of cutting off users mid-month, lower their speed to 1 Mbps until the end of the month.

I think a far better solution that may maximize Cogeco's resources is peak and off-peak metering.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22265104 Mon, 20 Apr 2009 09:19:32 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22264673 vuarra : This whole water analogy is interesting, but how does going to a different water plan with bigger pipes (16Mbi/s versus 10 MBi/s) somehow automatically reduce congestion and allow more water to flow per month?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22264673 Mon, 20 Apr 2009 04:54:48 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22264558 katmeef : I should have waited for your reply before I started my edit, would have applied nicely to some of this. I'm going to hit the hay but I'm sure this will be running through my mind - I'll get some idea tomorrow and will reply :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22264558 Mon, 20 Apr 2009 02:58:34 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22264530 ReiX896 : I agree, As congestion is caused by the user in 90% of the cases that an engineer or engineering student would experience in theory or practice. But even though the source is the user, Effectively it is the responsibility of the Executives and Engineers of the Water Company to effectively plan the expansion and infrastructure of the pipelines.

Now if the Water Company notices that the increase in volume is centered in a specific residential or commercial zone. Logically, the Water Company would consider the expansion of those pipelines a priority. Which should again in theory decrease the congestion throughout the pipeline infrastructure. And provide a stable service to its customer base.

But if the Water Company instead uses a restrictive method of control. It would effect the user base as the value of the service decreases based on rates. Consumers want competitive rates even in a limited competition market. It isn't because of greed, But because of necessity due to the evolution of technology and the value that those technologies bring.

Honestly, I really do enjoy the services Cogeco provides to my family. But I view Internet TV, Net-based VOD, and other innovations important on a social and at times educational level. Its easier and cheaper for me to download a PDF then drive 20 minutes to Coles. With the restrictive nature of Usage Billing I will pay the same amount if not more to do something that cost me $20 instead of $30 (Estimated cost to drive from Fort Erie to Niagara Falls then return trip + Book Cost).

I know some might say that $10 is to few to be considered substantial. But in this recession I am skimming by each month for Rent, Electricity, Tv, Food and Internet. I don't expect Cogeco to listen to my pleas in truth. But if even a single executive reads this post at least my small voice is heard.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22264530 Mon, 20 Apr 2009 02:47:08 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22264444 katmeef : Thank you for appreciating my wacky points in this very complicated debate :)

I guess everyone's monthly fees pay somewhat towards regular maintenance and upgrades. However, consider that enough people going far over the caps will cause congestion somewhere in the network, which will cause un-budgeted costs to be incurred by the Water co. I would imagine those costs will be paid for by someone, maybe the water co would raise everyone's raise to compensate when the next years budget is made up, or maybe they would decide to bill only those that use the extra water.

With gas, hydro, water, food, CATV even (although not a direct comparison to INET since CATV is mostly broadcast as opposed to uni or multicast) we pay for what we use. I think internet is going to be on the same model eventually, seems to be the global trend at the moment anyways. There are many varying opinions as to why this is happening, but no-matter where you turn, it seems to be happening or not far off on the horizon.

As long as the pricing is fair, I don't have a problem with it personally (I am not in any way considering the fairness of pricing - just the policy itself)

*edit* just want to mention that I am a very frugal person myself. I'm always on hamiltongasprices.com looking for the cheapest prices, I get irked when my food budget is blown by month after month and not because I'm eating any better... I hold my landlord to the legal rent increases against his annual protests. But I try not to stress about issues that I, myself, cannot affect change to (with very questionable success). If I seem to be making light of things, I'm not trying of offend anyone or belittle anyone's opinion - everyone has a point to make here.

...serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference
(and when to get some sleep.)

If I stressed about everything I would have a stroke. The global economy is in the tank, so many people are laid off, wars, sickness.. everything on the news is so depressing lately.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22264444 Mon, 20 Apr 2009 01:55:43 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22264402 ReiX896 : Rather interesting analogy Katmeef, And I can understand partially as I am IT enthusiast and read numerous articles on the evolving technology behind the network that serves my internet. I also before I begin thank you for providing your views as it helps for a reasonable debate.

But if the Water Company notices that the pressure in its lines are becoming increasingly high or backed up. Engineers are called and a solution is found by either expansion of the current network of pipes. Or if the option is available bypass, pipeline control, etc. Translating that to networks it means that either the ISP or CSP must expand the network. Or manipulate the flow of Data in an efficient manner.

Now I know the next question is cost and usage of these pipes. Even if the user doesn't utilize the potential of the network infrastructures capacity the user is still using. Now some will ask why should the heavier water users pay the same as the light users. The user is essentially paying to provide stability, reliability and progressive expansion of the network to facilitate growing user base. Even if everyone was a light user the pipelines still breakdown and still need replacement based on events and natural degradation of materials. Costing each user the same amount of financial recuperation.

If I read into your analogy improperly or stated something out of context I apologize. I'm not an engineer or a genius so I make a fair share of mistakes. But currently this is how it looks to me.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22264402 Mon, 20 Apr 2009 01:37:37 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22264373 katmeef :

said by Keith Mann5

:

The Internet is not, inherently, a great big pool of water that gets refilled every month -- there's no real need to divide it up into a little pool for each customer

Your comments are very thought stimulating Keith.. I think there is some truth to a somewhat modified version of your water analogy. Let me explain. Sorry if this is totally convoluted, made sense to me anyways on my drive home tonight. In my crazy analogy - the great big pool of water is not the internet. It's the IP Data. The internet is the culmination of pipes that bring the data from whatever pools they are in (far off servers, peers in p2p network, hulu media whatever) to your home.

There are big pipes and little pipes when you look at the diameter. The diameter would correlate to the link speed (10Mb/s, backbone, 100Mb/s, GigE links etc). The speed with which water is moving through the pipe measured over time (volume of water that is moving) is the amount of bandwidth moved. The instantaneous speed of the water could depend on things like the pipe diameter, latency, packet loss - things that impact bandwidth (crud growing on the inside of the pipes)

Water, while it can be compressed a bit (compared to hydraulic fluid anyways) takes up a pretty much fixed amount of space, and only so much can go through a pipe at one time, and over a given period of time. Try to put more in and things will backup, maybe old pipes will crack and leak etc. (not COGECO's pipes of course, but live in Hamilton for a while and you'll see what I mean about old pipes when parts of Upper James do their seemingly annual cave-ins and spew water into the air :) )

There's huge pipes between cities, big pipes running down the middle of town, with the diameter of the pipes getting gradually smaller until they come to the back of your faucet. Caps, or the amount of volume each customer is permitted to get delivered to their home, represent the fact that the pipes are limited in size, and anywhere between the 'pool' and your faucet, the pipes can get congested.

The Water company is the only entity that has an accurate view of how much water is flowing at any given time (in my vision of this analogy anyways). They are considering the amount of water they can deliver to each customer versus the cost of delivery and infrastructure (the caps for different tiers, or amounts of money paid) and basing the pricing plans on the current capacities of their network, not just the town-to-town pipes which have cheap cheap transport costs, but all the pipes. If they told every customer they could download an unlimited amount of water from the various pools out there - regardless how much that customer pays or how big the pipe is at their faucet, they would be oversubscribing the pipes right? By capping what each customer can use based on how much they pay, the company can plan for how much water will be used, and get a good idea of the costs of upgrades required to the pipes in order to keep off congestion.

If TV stayed in the "CATV pipes" of the coax plant there would be much less water to pass on the "inet pipes". The CATV pipes are already laid (and work pretty darn good IMO) and there's huge costs to rip them out and replace them with bigger inet pipes. Is it fair to charge everyone in the city who don't exceed their caps more money for their 'internet water' because a few people water their lawn 24/7 off the 'inet pipes' (because they dont like the catv pipes for whatever reason) and aren't paying for an appropriate sized inet pipe to bring that water to their place?

Time to Poke holes in my analogy (which couldn't be any more unofficial btw, please take it as nothing more than the ramblings of this sleep-deprived geek), hope you all brought your umbrellas!! :D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22264373 Mon, 20 Apr 2009 01:17:29 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22263223 Edhick : I understand Cogeco and the other cable companies are losing some people to on-line content, yet making their caps so low and overage fees so high is just greedy. We need to fight theses charges now, because it won't belong before they start creeping up the price of all the packages and I bet they start trying to muscling their way into the on-line gaming industry imposing extra fees on their players will kill a lot of on-line games. Mom & Dad paying 30 to 50 bucks more a month for Internet during a recession is going to make them grumpy over any additional charges the kids rack up. Why would Cogeco want to increase their bandwidth capacity now when theses new fees will force people to upgrade their packages way sooner and curb a lot of their competition in the process. The government should review the overage fees and release the true cost of what a cable companies pays of a GB and then imposes fair pricing. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22263223 Sun, 19 Apr 2009 20:06:55 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22262481 anon :

said by Keith Mann5

:

You're right that datacenters need, and have, the appropriate level of service, but the clients that use those datacenters need to be able to move traffic, too. Remote backup is a good example of a consumer need for this. I mean, my Dad -- who is a pretty typically home PC user and cable Internet subscriber -- takes a zillion pictures a month with his DSLR and dumps them all on his PC (which keeps me busy upgrading his hard drives, but that's another story). Now, I know he'd be happy to pay a few bucks a month to have those pictures backed up remotely, but would he be willing to risk his bitcap?

Two words: Windows Azure

Online backup is one thing, but the trend is moving towards *everything* being in the "cloud". Your data, your apps, everything. It's already at a point where you only need a browser to do your thing, with Google apps etc, and eventually the technology will allow you to access everything from wherever you can connect, on whatever device you have handy. Limiting bandwidth isn't just stopping alternative media distribution, it's being in complete denial of the future.

And as far as things like Hulu go, content will be produced the same way it has always been. Advertising. Do you think your favorite show is paid for by the cable companies that pipe the channel to your house? It's the ads in the middle of it and product placement that pay. That's why devices that automatically removed commercials on your VCR were banned. You can fast forward all you want, but the adverts had to be recorded, cuz thats what the people paying to produce the shows are coughing up the money for.

The 'value added' by Cogeco et al, what you're paying for, is the ability to watch channels that you can't get with an antenna. If you live in Toronto, you can watch CityTV without cable. The whole DTV thing in the states is about changing the *broadcast* from analog to digital. Stuff you receive for free with a good 'ole set of rabbit ears.

The networks are producing programming for people who receive it free to begin with, so Hulu isn't going to stop content from being produced by a long shot. What it WILL do is provide accurate numbers for calculating CPM, and networks wont need "neilson families" anymore (and good riddance to them, I don't know what *they* watch, but it's completely different from my viewing preferances :) )]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22262481 Sun, 19 Apr 2009 17:14:20 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22262322 metrotitan :

said by prairiesky

:

When things don't come with a cost, people abuse them. There are people out there who download full movies and never watch them, but do so because they can. The caps make these people stop and think about their choices.

Shaping user behavior is nonsense. Users that truly affect the service of others should be dealt with without affecting the internet choices of other customers.

All these ridiculous caps do is stifle the growth of the Internet and allow Cogeco's content delivery models a reprieve from the inevitable.

P.S. Bandwidth is not gas.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22262322 Sun, 19 Apr 2009 16:30:48 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22261410 prairiesky : Keith, I think in your example you brought up a point that most don't see with the backups. You said your dad would love to upload all his pictures. At 5+ megs a picture, this takes a lot of bandwidth. What caps might force him to do is to prioritize which pictures he want's to keep instead up tossing them all up onto the server. Half of those pictures he will probably never look at again and are just taking up resources needlessly. When things don't come with a cost, people abuse them. There are people out there who download full movies and never watch them, but do so because they can. The caps make these people stop and think about their choices. It's similar to gas, when prices started going up, people started to think more about what their habits. Now your dad being an average computer user probably has his camera set to take the most detailed pictures he can, and probably takes a few pictures of the same item to gain the best one. By forcing caps upon you, they're really telling you to stop and think about what you're doing. By doing this they're actually forcing people to learn and understand more about the technologies they commonly use. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22261410 Sun, 19 Apr 2009 12:10:30 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22260879 roxx :

said by katmeef

said by roxx

:

I have the emails to prove it from the security@cogeco address.

Those are from previous months right? Might be different now that things are a changin'.

Yes Katmeef, months gone by.

But, still when it was advertised as unlimited....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22260879 Sun, 19 Apr 2009 08:43:27 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22260868 katmeef :

said by roxx

:

I have the emails to prove it from the security@cogeco address.

Those are from previous months right? Might be different now that things are a changin'.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22260868 Sun, 19 Apr 2009 08:41:39 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22260864 katmeef :

said by Snickerdo

:

The third, and in my opinion the most likely having worked in various roles in call centres, is that misinformation spreads like a wildfire. One person hears something, tells another, and another, and another.

I've put in my time on the phones - over 8 years in fact - at different places: telemarketing, 3rd party tech support, finally tech support for Cogeco (this was by far the best call center experience for me, nothing like actually working for the company you are working for) and wholeheartedly agree with you, not applying to COGECO in particular but generally speaking.

I genuinely hope whomever Gixxer spoke to is wrong -Gix, (can I call you that? me so lazy..) feel free to PM me names of who you spoke to, I will sleuth about at work Monday.

As an employee anyways - been to long to remember my POV before I was here - I always feel bad going over the caps, and never wanted to get cutoff (although I have gotten the cutoff where you have to reconnect yourself.. gulp..) -- this new way, circa Krispy's post on page one, gave me hope of paying for my extra usage and guilt free downloading: if I am contributing to some greater problem in the network, I can rest easy knowing my extra $$$ is helping to pay to fix it back up....

if it is hard caps at $30+.. well I'll be stickin' to 60G a month still.

it was fun this month testing the meter. My DVD burner hasn't been this worked in ages.. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22260864 Sun, 19 Apr 2009 08:37:43 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22260818 roxx :

said by bricktoppp

:

If people get completely cut off, then this is incorrect/ false advertising.I'd like to see somebody test the Enterprise package to see if it's really "unlimited". My guess is if somebody got that and downloaded at 16Mbps for the entire month they'd pull out some BS about "network abuse" and shut down the modem after a week.

The warning emails are active on the Enterprise acct's. I have the emails to prove it from the security@cogeco address. There was still a combined bandwidth limit of 512 gigabytes listed on the acct summary page the last time I looked. Their supposed unlimited is limited, you just need to read the fine print.

All the reasons listed in this thread are why come May 1 I will no longer be a Cogeco subscriber. After being a customer since the Wave days it is a shame to part ways.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22260818 Sun, 19 Apr 2009 08:19:09 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22260805 katmeef : Keith, if you were a lawyer, I think you would be very successful! if the glove doesn't fit.. :) You're arguments are pretty convincing!

said by Keith Mann5

:

Why not? I think that's exactly what'll happen. I think it's already starting to happen. I *love* it. I love to be able to hear about something like, say, "The Guild" and not have to wait until NBC or whoever decides to rebroadcast S01E01 so that I can watch it from the beginning. I want a business model that lets people like Joss Whedon produce stuff like "Dr. Horrible", make a fair buck doing it, and not line the pockets of middlemen like Rupert Murdoch (and not worry about whether Fox is going to air it out of sequence, in various timeslots, in 4:3 instead of 16:9, and cancel it after 12 episodes -- *cough*Firefly*cough*). I don't care (to respond to your follow up) whether it's free. I'll pay for it, or watch commercials, or whatever. I just want something *better* than the absolute crap that TV has become, and I know it's out there, and I hate to see barriers erected that prevent me from enjoying it and getting more of it.

IMO the TV producers should should listen to you, i totally agree the networks can be.. frustrating at the least.. when they screw up AR, sequence - or cancel my favorite shows (I'm still not over Atlantis... *edit* they should bring back TNG too IMO)

Maybe the new competition will force them to work harder to please the viewing populous.

said by Keith Mann5

:

That, my friend, is the whole point in a nutshell.

I'm understanding your points now. Not everything is seeming as black-and-white as I originally thought. (all this is only my personal, non official opinion.. all that disclaimer stuff yadda yadda)

Can I have my rose-colored glasses back please? LOL]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22260805 Sun, 19 Apr 2009 08:02:47 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22260275 bricktoppp :

said by Shamans

:

The other things that piss me off are:
1) Why aren't warnings coming on time?

The whole point of this is to hit average users with overage charges, not just the "bandwidth hogs".

said by Shamans

:

2) Why the hell isn't the bandwidth meter updated more frequently? The average household doesn't know how to find out their usage in real-time.

Cogeco doesn't want to make it easy to avoid extra charges

said by Shamans

:

3) What education programmes/brochures have Cogeco sent out since the enforcement of cap and billing of bandwidth usage? How is the average non-technical person supposed to understand what this all means to them. Don't tell me that they don't need to know.

Some useless crap about "1,000,000,000 emails!"

said by Shamans

:

4) When people get suspended/terminated for the month, why isn't there a safe 1 Mbps service to fall back on?

This is Cogeco, 1Kbps service would be too much for them.

said by Shamans

:

If people get completely cut off, then this is incorrect/ false advertising.

I'd like to see somebody test the Enterprise package to see if it's really "unlimited". My guess is if somebody got that and downloaded at 16Mbps for the entire month they'd pull out some BS about "network abuse" and shut down the modem after a week.

Don't bother calling Cogeco to get a straight answer about any of this, apparently their customer service agents know less about Cogeco's policies than we do.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22260275 Sun, 19 Apr 2009 00:48:40 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22260021 Keith Mann5 :

said by katmeef

:

Hypothetically speaking, I think that if electricity were that way when central air was developed, the inventors would have looked for some other type of energy to power the device. That would not be so good for the hydro company I guess.

That's a good point, but I can't imagine an alternative type of energy that would work (maybe an alternative way of generating electricity, but then the analogy starts to really break down). You're absolutely right about it not being good for the hydro company, because in the long run the demand for their product would stagnate.

Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't most of the high bandwidth innovation that residential people are going to use centered around alternate feeds for tv and movies? I know there are many other uses for extreme bandwidth brought up like remote backups and medical imaging, but I feel that datacenters (or other businesses which use this) and hospitals can and should be paying for an appropriate tier of internet service.

Certainly TV and movies get a lot of attention, and I'd bet they're the things that are blowing bitcaps for most people. But that's not to say that there won't be other cool things in the future...and the future, as I argue, will get here sooner if the bandwidth is there and the bitcaps aren't.

You're right that datacenters need, and have, the appropriate level of service, but the clients that use those datacenters need to be able to move traffic, too. Remote backup is a good example of a consumer need for this. I mean, my Dad -- who is a pretty typically home PC user and cable Internet subscriber -- takes a zillion pictures a month with his DSLR and dumps them all on his PC (which keeps me busy upgrading his hard drives, but that's another story). Now, I know he'd be happy to pay a few bucks a month to have those pictures backed up remotely, but would he be willing to risk his bitcap?

I work from home a lot and when I do, I VPN in to the office. That's good for me, and one less car on the road probably doesn't hurt the planet, either. But, should I have to worry about whether my telecommuting is threatening my bitcap?

Here's the thing: Cogeco's taking a stance, and consumers are getting a message. That message is: use too much Internet, and pay way more. Use way too much Internet, and get your Internet cut off. That's a really, really bad message to be sending. The Internet is not, inherently, a great big pool of water that gets refilled every month -- there's no real need to divide it up into a little pool for each customer and say, "that's all there is for this month". It's artificial. There are better ways to deal with whatever problems exist in letting people consume all they want.

I don't think hulu and the other sites will get together to start producing our sitcoms, sci fi and most importantly family guy.

Why not? I think that's exactly what'll happen. I think it's already starting to happen. I *love* it. I love to be able to hear about something like, say, "The Guild" and not have to wait until NBC or whoever decides to rebroadcast S01E01 so that I can watch it from the beginning. I want a business model that lets people like Joss Whedon produce stuff like "Dr. Horrible", make a fair buck doing it, and not line the pockets of middlemen like Rupert Murdoch (and not worry about whether Fox is going to air it out of sequence, in various timeslots, in 4:3 instead of 16:9, and cancel it after 12 episodes -- *cough*Firefly*cough*). I don't care (to respond to your follow up) whether it's free. I'll pay for it, or watch commercials, or whatever. I just want something *better* than the absolute crap that TV has become, and I know it's out there, and I hate to see barriers erected that prevent me from enjoying it and getting more of it.

Assuming there would still be some content being produced to be watched, if everyone (or like 95% of everyone) decided to dump traditional delivery in favor of internet content, I am sure Cable Co's would listen and clean out their sites to make room for the equipment to saturate the coax with downstreams and upstreams... I would expect CRTC would probably demand it at that point! But thats a long ways off - there's still people who only use analogue TV!

Sure it's a long way off, but Cogeco's policies aren't bringing it any closer. That, my friend, is the whole point in a nutshell.
--
Keith Mann - Dundas, Ontario, Canada
ISP: Cogeco; Service=SOHO Standard (16D/1U/200GB)
keith@keithmann.com
»www.keithmann.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22260021 Sat, 18 Apr 2009 23:02:17 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22259543 Shamans :

said by Fireblade

said by Shamans

:

I'm interested as to what you will find out as well because if what Gixxer said is true then point #4 of your original post would have to be corrected/invalidated.

I spoke to a supervisor and a manager about it, once you run out of usage bandwidth - you will be terminated for the month, word for word "After you reach the bandwidth allocated by your internet package, your service will be blocked till 1st of next month" is what a supervisor told me. Try calling in and asking for yourself. I even called billing and they knew all about it which was a surprise. Krispy is obviously not in the loop, I'm not trying to insult, it's just the truth.

I'm wary of getting cut off without any "you're going to get cut off if you don't slow down" warnings like gixxer.

If suspensions are supposed to occur at the point in which overusage charges no longer apply, then why is the meter still running? This affects which packages a person can upgrade to next.

I'm afraid they'll demand that I get the enterprise package for a month.

From my experience, there's 2 systems working in Cogeco. An automated system that dictates when you get cut off. And a personnel system that dictates when/if you can get back on. And the rules of both don't tend to agree. The rules for the personnel system has always been the same from what I can tell. The automated system keeps changing and it's dangerous if the automated system suspends a user at a point in which his only recourse is to buy into the enterprise package.

It's like the left hand is giving out coccaine to entice users while the right hand is witholding unless payment is made.

If what Gixxer experienced is commonplace, then the point of a tiered system with overusage charges becomes useless and is just a grand excuse to get more $. No one wants to buy into the overusage charges only to get cut off. They would rather upgrade their plan if they had no other choice as it is cheaper and may allow them to continue using their service.

The other things that piss me off are:
1) Why aren't warnings coming on time?
2) Why the hell isn't the bandwidth meter updated more frequently? The average household doesn't know how to find out their usage in real-time.
3) What education programmes/brochures have Cogeco sent out since the enforcement of cap and billing of bandwidth usage? How is the average non-technical person supposed to understand what this all means to them. Don't tell me that they don't need to know.
4) When people get suspended/terminated for the month, why isn't there a safe 1 Mbps service to fall back on? Doesn't a user's uptime depend on the fact that they are getting service (even if it is reduced?). If you check the packages in »www.cogeco.ca/en/high-speed-internet-_o.html. It states:
Access - Always on. No second phone line needed. Talk over phone at same time.
Time limits - Unlimited.
If people get completely cut off, then this is incorrect/ false advertising.

I'd expect a higher than average churn rate in the future, not only because of the lowered value of Cogeco's internet packages, but the way in which they educate their users and the execution of such packages.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22259543 Sat, 18 Apr 2009 20:42:56 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22259458 ReiX896 : Hulu is financed by NBC Universal, News Corp. and Providence Equity Partners. Despite being operated independently by a management team. This financial infrastructure allows for development of original content in conjunction with it partners. Allowing for an innovative partnership between traditional media outlets and Internet TV ventures. But this innovation also depends on ISP's and CSP's working with these projects. Imposing strict and non-flexible packages stifles the ability for these alternate content providers to provide their content. Hulu as it stands provides content to the U.S but as the Public Relations and Director of Operations have stated Hulu is working with other countries to provide legitimate free content.

And a point of clarity on the finances required to provide original media content. NBC Universal as Hulu's financial partner gains from producing the content in-house. As even if the venture fails it can be re-contributed into traditional delivery method. So I honestly don't see how the bill is passed onto the user.

Also I hope this post doesn't come across as aggressive. As my intent is a constructive debate that assists in flexible packages for future technologies.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22259458 Sat, 18 Apr 2009 20:22:36 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22259208 katmeef :

said by ReiX896

:

But your statement is basically relying on Hulu and other content providers remaining in pure acquisition. It isn't to say that Hulu in an evolved state will not work to acquire original content.

If hulu suddenly has to start paying to produce new content, who are they going to pass the bill onto? it's users of course. the free internet tv delivery site could end up costing as much as getting it through traditional delivery - if that happened, then what was the point of switching to internet delivery?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22259208 Sat, 18 Apr 2009 19:19:19 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22259163 ReiX896 :

said by katmeef

said by Keith Mann5

:

Consider: who would ever have developed the central air conditioner if electricity were "kilowatt-hour-capped" so low that the average consumer would use up their electricity quota by the middle of the month if they turned the air conditioner on for more than 15 minutes a day?

But your statement is basically relying on Hulu and other content providers remaining in pure acquisition. It isn't to say that Hulu in an evolved state will not work to acquire original content.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22259163 Sat, 18 Apr 2009 19:09:32 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22259122 katmeef :

said by Keith Mann5

I have this little voice in my head saying 'stop matt. just stop' :)

Hypothetically speaking, I think that if electricity were that way when central air was developed, the inventors would have looked for some other type of energy to power the device. That would not be so good for the hydro company I guess.

Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't most of the high bandwidth innovation that residential people are going to use centered around alternate feeds for tv and movies? I know there are many other uses for extreme bandwidth brought up like remote backups and medical imaging, but I feel that datacenters (or other businesses which use this) and hospitals can and should be paying for an appropriate tier of internet service.

Here's some other purely hypothetical things that came to mind while I was thinking about this:

At some point in the future, if everyone suddenly decided to switch from watching TV and Movies through traditional means to free internet delivered content, who would pay Fox, CTV, or the movie studios to continue producing new shows and movies? I don't think hulu and the other sites will get together to start producing our sitcoms, sci fi and most importantly family guy.

Assuming there would still be some content being produced to be watched, if everyone (or like 95% of everyone) decided to dump traditional delivery in favor of internet content, I am sure Cable Co's would listen and clean out their sites to make room for the equipment to saturate the coax with downstreams and upstreams... I would expect CRTC would probably demand it at that point! But thats a long ways off - there's still people who only use analogue TV! ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22259122 Sat, 18 Apr 2009 18:57:15 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22259031 xeroid2 : For all those that have made the decision to either leave Cogeco entirely or reduce their services ... TV, Internet and or phone services with Cogeco and all those who are seriously considering leaving Cogeco, please raise your hand.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22259031 Sat, 18 Apr 2009 18:32:50 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22258911 Edhick : I guess I would be considered a bandwidth heaviest user, I play a few hours of on-line games and a few hours of streaming TV shows each night and no plans of changing my lifestyle because of this new charge. What I will be doing is cutting back on my cable TV services, which with Internet is 142 a month and when I see a better deal in my area I'm jumping ship never to return and I hope others leave Cogeco as well. I think the Internet companies should workout better packages for heavy users with higher caps but with slightly slower speeds to even things out without pissing so many off.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22258911 Sat, 18 Apr 2009 17:57:43 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22258756 Snickerdo :

said by xeroid2

:

More than one Cogeco rep has reported that you WILL BE CUT OFF once you reach and pay the $30 worth of overage on a standard account. Call tech support right now .... find out for yourself.

And, like I said, phone support are generally clueless when it comes to policies like this. Even if you ask for a supervisor, manager, whoever the call is just transferred to the person sitting next to them. You'll get nowhere with them, so don't bother asking. They know nothing more than you and I already know from what has been announced.

As I said, while I'm not ruling this out, it would make sense that this would be in place NOW, since this is the first month when bills start reflecting the overage charges, they merely are crediting them back until June. If Cogeco's plan was to cut you off once you hit $30/$50, it only makes logical sense that it would be happening now. Why would Cogeco allow people to rack up 200GB of bandwidth for two months when the system is already in place to cut them off?

I mean think about it people. I'm not saying that this isn't the case, but logic dictates that whatever phone support is saying right now is misinformed, and probably conjecture based on the new overage fees and the hard caps that existed prior to their implementation.
--
I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22258756 Sat, 18 Apr 2009 17:13:41 EDT Re: Update: I've decided to switch http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22258738 pnear :

said by DrunkenClam

:

Your passsive/aggressive style of saying you love cogeco, but are cancelling their service is fine, but after reading this it seems to me like your in fantasy land. Yea, Krispy might give you some more lip service, but I think the only person that might listen to you is this one:
»webinfo.parl.gc.ca/MembersOfParl···nguage=E

Not sure I quite understood where you were going with that one, but Lisa Raitt and I are not what you'd call great friends! ;-)

Passive is perhaps a word better suited to someone who complains alot about a product change but doesn't do anything about it.

If this product doesn't meet your needs find one that does, help that company to be successful, and prove to Cogeco that their assumptions about this market segment are wrong.

Pete]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22258738 Sat, 18 Apr 2009 17:09:34 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22258637 xeroid2 : More than one Cogeco rep has reported that you WILL BE CUT OFF once you reach and pay the $30 worth of overage on a standard account. Call tech support right now .... find out for yourself.

It was also reported this will happen once the overage charges begin.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22258637 Sat, 18 Apr 2009 16:42:09 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22258404 Shamans :

said by Snickerdo

said by SmallWig

:

That is the correct one if you look at the evidence. It is not the call centre or the network admin that is out of the loop. Cogeco keeps the customers out of the loop.
In fact nothing has changed from the hard caps of last year. When your get account gets disabled you are encouraged to 'upgrade' to a package which fits your needs.

Yeah that's true, there's a few possible theories. A lot of it relies on the way the automated system works and whether gixxer was cut off by the automated system.

anyone else experiencing 0 Gb recorded for the last 3 days?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22258404 Sat, 18 Apr 2009 15:32:12 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22258281 Snickerdo :

said by SmallWig

Thing, is, the evidence isn't there. If the evidence was there, Gixxer would have been shut down at 80GB when he reached the maximum $30 charge, and wouldn't have been shut down at over 200GB or wherever he was. This is the way it was before the hard caps, Cogeco would shut people down on a selective basis when they caused an issue.
--
I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22258281 Sat, 18 Apr 2009 14:55:03 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22258274 SmallWig :

said by Snickerdo

:

1. She is in the loop, but chooses not to talk about it.

That is the correct one if you look at the evidence. It is not the call centre or the network admin that is out of the loop. Cogeco keeps the customers out of the loop.

In fact nothing has changed from the hard caps of last year. When your account gets disabled you are encouraged to 'upgrade' to a package which fits your needs.

This version of 'UBB' is clearly just a money grab.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22258274 Sat, 18 Apr 2009 14:51:43 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22258226 Snickerdo :

said by Fireblade

:

I spoke to a supervisor and a manager about it, once you run out of usage bandwidth - you will be terminated for the month, word for word "After you reach the bandwidth allocated by your internet package, your service will be blocked till 1st of next month" is what a supervisor told me. Try calling in and asking for yourself. I even called billing and they knew all about it which was a surprise. Krispy is obviously not in the loop, I'm not trying to insult, it's just the truth.

Well, it could be one of three things...

1. She is in the loop, but chooses not to talk about it.
2. She isn't in the loop (which I sort of have a hard time beliving)

The third, and in my opinion the most likely having worked in various roles in call centres, is that misinformation spreads like a wildfire. One person hears something, tells another, and another, and another. "Supervisors" at the Cogeco call centres aren't really managers or anything of the sort, they're just experienced phone agents who sit in an escalation queue, so they really don't know anything more than anyone else. I know a few of them who live here in Niagara and commute to Burlington. Once something like that spreads, it starts getting told to customers and customers believe it, whether it's true or not.

If what they told you really was the case, I'm of the belief that the system would have already been in place to boot you off this month once you hit the top of that red section. While I don't think it's impossible that what they told you is going to happen, I'm not exactly holding my breath, either.

This should really get up onto the front page of DSLR, they'd have a field day with it just like they did during the overage charge announcement. Charging for overages, and cutting off anyway. They'll love it. At least it will force Cogeco to clarify their position and, if true, "defend" their actions (by further insulting our intelligence, but I digress)
--
I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22258226 Sat, 18 Apr 2009 14:35:41 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22258202 Fireblade :

said by Shamans

:

I'm interested as to what you will find out as well because if what Gixxer said is true then point #4 of your original post would have to be corrected/invalidated.

said by NoComp :

64.95 for 5 mbps service? That is competition cogeco doesn't have to worry about...lol

Not I-Zoom.

Read down the thread to what Nexicom is offering. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22258103 Sat, 18 Apr 2009 13:58:19 EDT Re: Update: I've decided to switch http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22258096 anon : 64.95 for 5 mbps service? That is competition cogeco doesn't have to worry about...lol]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22258096 Sat, 18 Apr 2009 13:55:52 EDT Re: Update: I've decided to switch http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22257910 urbanriot :

said by DrunkenClam

:

without competition that hits the bottom line or government intervention.

If there's no competition then there's a market. Cha-ching!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22257910 Sat, 18 Apr 2009 13:05:20 EDT Re: Update: I've decided to switch http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22257897 peterboro1 :

said by DrunkenClam

:

Until then from lack of competition, they don't really have too.
We all want the same thing here. I hope cogeco does listen, but having been playing the corporate game for years now, it's very naive to think any change will happen, without competition that hits the bottom line or government intervention.

I stated a thread »Here is a I-Zoom flyer in mailbox today, anyone try them? about something else and part way through an alternative reared it's pretty head to Cogeco.

So yes there is competition out there, not for everyone though. Most are happy and haven't looked like myself until this fell on my lap so to speak.

I'm not going to change the way I use the internet and one penny in over charges an I'm gone, simple.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22257897 Sat, 18 Apr 2009 13:02:00 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22257807 Shamans :

said by Krispy

:

I'm trying to find out where this is coming from as I'm assuming the posters are being honest when they say multiple reps are telling them this but I've not heard of anything like this from anyone here so my gut reaction is it's simply not true and either the poster is misunderstanding what a rep said or a rep or two are inventing policy. I'll try and find out and get back to you but probably won't be until next week at this point.

I'm interested as to what you will find out as well because if what Gixxer said is true then point #4 of your original post would have to be corrected/invalidated.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22257807 Sat, 18 Apr 2009 12:39:00 EDT Re: Update: I've decided to switch http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22257768 DrunkenClam :

said by urbanriot :

Yea, hopefully they step in and force all Canadian ISP's to provide the same crappy, vanilla internet service

You obviously don't understand. Having a regulated tier that ISP's provide ie: 10meg/800k service at 250 Bandwidth cap at 44.95 a month that would ensure all Canadians have an equal chance to use the internet at a fair price. All the other tiers would still be available for people who need more or less.

uber69er

Cogeco doesn't care, because they don't have too. If some investors see a downward trend in the next quarterly report and ask why, then cogeco might start listening. Until then from lack of competition, they don't really have too.

We all want the same thing here. I hope cogeco does listen, but having been playing the corporate game for years now, it's very naive to think any change will happen, without competition that hits the bottom line or government intervention.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22257768 Sat, 18 Apr 2009 12:31:36 EDT If under usage...is there a credit? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22257615 anon : So can we get credits against overages?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22257615 Sat, 18 Apr 2009 11:51:18 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22257566 anon :

said by DrunkenClam

:

Hopefully the Government will make the right decisions in the coming years.

Yea, hopefully they step in and force all Canadian ISP's to provide the same crappy, vanilla internet service to all Canadians where there's no incentive to do anything better or different because it's all the same price. Viva La Revolucion!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22257566 Sat, 18 Apr 2009 11:48:36 EDT Re: Update: I've decided to switch http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22257440 uber69er :

said by DrunkenClam

I'd be happy to come into the office or chat via phone to decision makers

He may be a demographic that the bean counters are actually afraid of.
With their little charts and graphs they only want him to skirt the caps and pay an extra couple bucks
a month and not leave Cogeco because of the hassle.
The tipping point he personifies is what keeps some of them awake at night I'm sure.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22257440 Sat, 18 Apr 2009 11:06:48 EDT Re: Update: I've decided to switch http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22257370 DrunkenClam :

I'd be happy to come into the office or chat via phone to decision makers

Your passsive/aggressive style of saying you love cogeco, but are cancelling their service is fine, but after reading this it seems to me like your in fantasy land. Yea, Krispy might give you some more lip service, but I think the only person that might listen to you is this one:
»webinfo.parl.gc.ca/MembersOfParl···nguage=E]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22257370 Sat, 18 Apr 2009 10:45:55 EDT Update: I've decided to switch http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22257143 pnear : Based on the positive feedback I got to my last "here are my thoughts on the caps" post, I thought I'd provide you with an update.

After much consideration, I've decided to try out another ISP. I remember back in 2001 when Cogeco internet came to my neighbourhood I was thrilled, since DSL service was terrible in my neighbourhood. I switched, I convinced several of my neighbours to switch, and interestingly enough once there was competition in town Bell started paying attention to DSL problems and actually dug up a neighbour's front yard. It was good all around.

I came to love Cogeco's service, highlighted by the dedication of techs who volunteer to hang out here and help out the more savvy users and those who fell through the cracks of the call center. Excellent speeds and good service caused me to recommend Cogeco to many people, and I even caused my coworkers in Rogers territory to be jealous of the amazing service I'd found. My wife being a real estate agent passed along that glowing recommendation to literally hundreds of new customers.

Alas, the way I use the internet has changed. For the most part, Cogeco was helpful with these changes providing increased speeds and upload capacity to accomodate things like uploading HD video of the kids growing up to YouTube, remote desktop from work via Windows Home Server, and increased reliance on new media like HD video downloads on the XBox and high-resolution television content downloads from the big networks. In my perfect, hopefully not too distant future, I'll never visit a video store again, never have to record or watch live TV again, and always be connected to my family via HD video sharing and webcams. Cogeco's service no longer matches with my current needs, let alone my near future needs.

The month is only half-over, and I've already received my bandwidth warning. I don't think I've done anything differently this month, I do expect that my needs are only going to increase, and I really don't want to have to deal with worrying about bandwidth metering. I'm about to get on a plane for a week to go put bread on the table, and I'm honestly worried that my wife and kids will get stuck dealing with a phone call from Cogeco that they won't understand or worse yet be left without service while I'm away. It's just a stress that I don't need.

My new ISP's hardware should arrive in a week, and assuming that it all works out as expected I'll be saying farewell to you all. If it works out for a couple of months, I'll likely be saying farewell to Cogeco for CATV service as well.

My offer from before stands, even as a non-customer. I'd be happy to come into the office or chat via phone to decision makers to give them insight into what I consider to be a reasonable person's needs and commercial influencers to be. PM me if you want to take me up on that.

Pete]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22257143 Sat, 18 Apr 2009 09:26:57 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22257135 DrunkenClam : It really says how out of touch less enlightened people are with technology by saying these caps will not stifle innovation.

One such product is off site back up. If I want to back up multiple computers online so the data is safe and not physically at the location I am at in case of fire or theft, I can't back up as much as I would like because cogeco would cut the internet. Off site back up is a great idea. Go on itunes, if I want to download Lost season 1 that's 38 gigs, I would burn through most of my cap with one download. Ridiculous.

That's just one example, there are literally thousands of examples, from Medical monitoring, to security monitoring, using Skype video, the list is endless, and I don't wish to waste time typing it all out.

It's useless arguing with these Hidden cogeco employees and shills, all they are here to do is defend cogeco at all costs, and they are blind as to how they are screwing the consumer, (and the internet as a whole in canada) over. Everyone has a price to lie, and with the salary cogeco pays (it's not much), I guess some people are cheaper then others. I expect any day now to be told by someone from cogeco that cigarettes are healthy and we should smoke more. *cough cough*

Like with cell phones, america and Europe have a 90 percent penetration rate, in Canada only 60 percent because of the high prices and how we get screwed over. Same will happen with the internet if cogeco gets their way, people will just stop using it. Hopefully the Government will make the right decisions in the coming years.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22257135 Sat, 18 Apr 2009 09:24:29 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22256010 ReiX896 : In respects to IP Based Innovation the world is truly experiencing the first wave. Hulu and other legal content providers provide a multitude of media content unavailable to traditional content providers. Even at times surpassing the VOD features that even the highly inclined content providers cannot compete with. Google is also releasing High End QOS Voice Chat as well as Video over IP services for chat.

If Cogeco desires innovation to strive then it must adapt policies and bundles to reflect it. I as a Cogeco subscriber rarely extend past the bitcap provided to my standard package. But if Cogeco remains firm on keeping the provided bundles as each is. I know with in the next year I will be forced to find another ISP.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22256010 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 22:58:56 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22255627 Keith Mann5 : Thanks for defending me, Snickerdo, but I didn't take offense at Katmeef's post -- I'm pretty sure he was asking a sincere question and trying to be lighthearted about it. Anyway I hope we can all continue this very interesting debate in a friendly way.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22255627 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:20:14 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22255610 Snickerdo :

said by katmeef

:

I don't think VPN usage transmitting schematics is high bandwidth usage. Nor are the GM engineers going to be using a residential connection for their R&D.

You were the one who was a smartass and mocked the poster about how the Internet and innovation aren't linked. They are, more than you know. Whether or not a residential or corporate connection is being used is irrelevant. The fact remains that the two are linked.

Hell, ever heard of remote medical imaging? Maybe you'll see something on the TV about it someday, since the Internet clearly has nothing to do with innovation and education, at least to you.
--
I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22255610 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:14:40 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22255589 x01 : I've been giving the usage billing a some thought and I think I can come to terms with it. That's not such a bad idea. The thing I'm having a hard time swallowing is the actual rates. I believe the over charge rate is totally insane. I just pulled out an old bill from a couple of months ago and it said that I was paying $47.20 for the standard 60Gig / month plan.

So if you do a little division, that works out to about $0.79/GB. My big problem is that now if I go over my 60, Cogeco is going to punish me by charging me $1.50 which is almost double. Now for the life of me, I can not think of a logical reason to justify this other than greed. If there is a logical answer for this, I would sure like to hear it. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22255589 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:08:34 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22255579 katmeef :

said by Keith Mann5

:

Consider: who would ever have developed the central air conditioner if electricity were "kilowatt-hour-capped" so low that the average consumer would use up their electricity quota by the middle of the month they turned the air conditioner on for more than 15 minutes a day?

hmm. now that is food for thought. i will churn over this as I go eat breakfast at Wendys (I am basically on a vampire schedule)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22255579 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:05:41 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22255461 Keith Mann5 :

said by katmeef

:

Keith, can you give an example of what kind of innovation is being stifled by people having to pay for their internet usage?

Well, to be clear, I don't think it's "people having to pay for their Internet usage" that's the problem, but rather it's "people having to pay more for their Internet usage if they use too much and having it possibly cut off if they use way too much and being able to get competing services without those disadvantages" (phew).

I wish I could give you a nice long list of innovations, because then I'd be a much better and probably richer innovator, but one example that jumps to mind is Internet TV. Geek that I am, I could, if I chose, stream content off the Internet, through my TVersity server, on through my XBox, and ultimately onto my plasma TV and 7.1 receiver and enjoy an experience equal to a VOD movie. Of course, the former would chew up my bitcap and the latter wouldn't; also, Cogeco isn't renting TVersity servers and XBoxes (or some comparable home-theatre PC system) for $16 a month (including 160GB PVR!). So why choose the former? Few would.

And that's the problem for those who would like to develop and sell Internet TV services. Cogeco's business model is slanted very significantly in favour of traditional content delivery. That, in turn, discourages people from coming up with other cool things that would eat up both bitcap and the relatively small bit of bandwidth Cogeco makes available for IP versus that devoted to analog and DTV.

Consider: who would ever have developed the central air conditioner if electricity were "kilowatt-hour-capped" so low that the average consumer would use up their electricity quota by the middle of the month if they turned the air conditioner on for more than 15 minutes a day?
--
Keith Mann - Dundas, Ontario, Canada
ISP: Cogeco; Service=SOHO Standard (16D/1U/200GB)
keith@keithmann.com
»www.keithmann.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22255461 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 20:38:51 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22255262 katmeef :

said by Snickerdo

:

What a narrow, narrow, simpleton view.

I am starting to remember why I get frustrated and tend to stop visiting this forum for years at a time :)

I don't think VPN usage transmitting schematics is high bandwidth usage. Nor are the GM engineers going to be using a residential connection for their R&D.

But I will 'stick to what I know' and go back to enjoying my weekend in front of my TV

Matt]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22255262 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:58:42 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22255243 Snickerdo :

said by katmeef

:

I don't think the next generation lightbulb is going to run on bandwidth, or the next hybrid car will fuel up from the ethernet port... :)

What a narrow, narrow, simpleton view.

The engineer designing the lightbulb is going to use his Internet connection to VPN in from home. The Internet connection is going to be used to send schematics between design teams. The Internet connection is going to be used to contact investors and clients.

The hybrid car being designed may use real-time data obtained over the Internet for simulation purposes.

Really dude, you don't get it at all. Stick with what you know and keep watching TV on your TV.
--
I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22255243 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:54:26 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22255226 katmeef : Keith, can you give an example of what kind of innovation is being stifled by people having to pay for their internet usage?

I don't think the next generation lightbulb is going to run on bandwidth, or the next hybrid car will fuel up from the ethernet port... :)

Personally I enjoy watching TV on my TV... much better picture than rips from the net for the most part anyways... and my PVR brings a level of convenience you just don't get downloading one episode at a time. Once I stopped downloading TV and moved to VOD, PVR'd shows, and genuine DVDs, my bandwidth utilization patterns shifted significantly ... ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22255226 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:50:39 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22255179 Keith Mann5 :

said by Krispy

:

While you have many fair points your basic argument seems to be "the internet is too new and the public too uninformed about bits and bytes to start charging for usage" - now while this may be true for some people I fail to understand how this changes an ISP costs or ability to both manage it's network while creating capital for future service growth. I'm sure way back when hydro was a fixed cost and they moved to usage billing someone, somewhere made same arguments many are making about bitcaps now -- there always seems to be an aspect of pain and resistance involved in anything new especially when it has the ability to affect wallets.

Consumer ignorance is certainly a factor, but even informed consumers might very well opt for a non-IP-based service over a competing IP-based service on the basis of the Cogeco-imposed cost of the latter. This is the crux of my argument: Cogeco is, in effect, discouraging consumers from adopting IP-based services that consume a significant chunk of their bitcap. That is a Very Bad Thing for innovators who are trying to develop and market said IP-based services. They are at a signficant competitive disadvantage. The analogy to electricity breaks down because electricity wasn't trying to break into a market already dominated by an (inferior but established and artifically cheaper) power technology -- Cogeco wasn't offering unlimited pressurized steam for $50 per month while charging $2 per kWh beyond 30, up to a monthly limit of 60 after which those new-fangled electric lights of yours might go out if your neighbors started complaining about brownouts.

As for hydro not cutting you off...true, they just bill you for each and every watt and then when your bill passes a threshold in their billing system THEN they cut you off (even in the winter now) - of course they do send you threatening notices that might make you feel intimidated and make you seek to avoid the disconnection -- if you don't they'll cut you off AND charge you a reconnection fee AND possibly apply a security deposit to your account if it's happened before.

I'm sorry, but I don't think that the practice of discontinuing service to a customer who doesn't pay their bill is salient to this debate.

Lastly, as I've already stated somewhere in this thread I personally don't agree with the max charge, I think we should bill for every byte all the way up however the decision makers are nicer than I and I guess I can kinda understand where they're coming from which is, oddly enough, the same place you seem to be coming from which is that the general public is not yet fully up to speed on bytes and megabytes and gigabytes so they want to help this transition by helping customers avoid massive bills

I can imagine a number of ways to help customers avoid massive bills that don't involve setting a point at which their service is subject to disconnection. For example (and I'm sure there are many possible variants of this), the customer could be contacted at certain agreed-upon usage thresholds, at which point they would have some options: continue paying and damn the torpedoes; temporarily reduce their bandwidth to avoid incurring too much in the way of extra charges; or, discontinue their service for the remainder of the month.

Beyond this, we start to get into a debate over fair pricing, and I simply do not have enough information about Cogeco's costs to participate; however, I would hasten to point out that Cogeco does not face enough competitive pressure to ensure fair pricing.

--
Keith Mann - Dundas, Ontario, Canada
ISP: Cogeco; Service=SOHO Standard (16D/1U/200GB)
keith@keithmann.com
»www.keithmann.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22255179 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:42:32 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22254901 anon : Wow long thread. My two cents - If internet costs more these days than it did a few years back and you need to charge people who use more bandwidth I can accept that. But the people who use less bandwidth should receive some kind of incentive too. This seems like a win-win situation for Cogeco where the customer isn't receiving any kind of benefit. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22254901 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:52:15 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22254793 Fireblade :

said by diskdocx

:

I don't think either Rogers or Bell cut customers off when they hit that max overage.

Very disappointing.

Correct, they don't the limit is $25 and you can go unlimited or very close to it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22254793 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:13:14 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22254580 diskdocx :

said by Krispy

Thanks Krispy, that sounds fair.

I might add however, it's possible that a rep or two might be misunderstanding as well.

Does anyone know what happens on Rogers and Bell after you exceed the max overage? Is there a cut off or is it truly unlimited at that point?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22254580 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:29:42 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22254478 Krispy :

said by diskdocx

said by Fireblade

said by katmeef

:

I hope so, but I don't know for sure! It's not something I have anything to do with at work, or anything I can find out about from my department.

Krispy can you confirm this?

I'm trying to find out where this is coming from as I'm assuming the posters are being honest when they say multiple reps are telling them this but I've not heard of anything like this from anyone here so my gut reaction is it's simply not true and either the poster is misunderstanding what a rep said or a rep or two are inventing policy. I'll try and find out and get back to you but probably won't be until next week at this point.
--
you can lead a horse to the water but you cannot make him drink...you can put a man through school but you cannot make him think --ben harper
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22254478 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:09:44 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22254453 Krispy :

said by Keith Mann5

said by Krispy

:

By this logic hydro companies negate innovation because they use usage billing and last I checked electricity was pretty important to society. As for regulation...careful what you wish for (insert my generic hydro rant here!).

The analogy doesn't hold in any number of ways, but here are the most important ones:

1. Consumer perception. People are very used to paying variable electric bills, and even have a sense of how those bills are likely to fluctuate. They understand that they can save a little bit of money by turning off the bathroom light and a lot of money by turning off the air conditioner. The same sense of comfort doesn't exist for broadband. People will shy away from it if they're not sure how much it's going to cost.

2. Viable competition. Broadband-based services are still trying to displace things like conventional television and telephony, which don't incur the same sort of usage-based charges. As a consumer, I might choose conventional TV over Internet TV because the former is a fixed rate per month whereas the latter is variable (and significantly more expensive at Cogeco's rates). Electricity doesn't face this challenge.

3. Maturity and ubiquity of technology. Electricity is universally accepted. If I go to a venture capitalist looking for seed money to create a new electric appliance, he's not going to worry about whether there are enough people with electricity. The same isn't true for a new broadband service.

4. Service interruption. Nobody's going to cut off my electricity if I exceed a certain number of kWh. I might lose my broadband if I exceed my cap. I won't get a warning e-mail or a phone call from the hydro company telling me that I'm using too much power and bothering my neighbours; I might get such a notice from Cogeco, and I might feel intimidated as a result and seek to avoid it.

There are probably other disimilarities, but you get my point.

As for regulation: despite the many problems with our regulated utilities, I can only imagine how much worse the situation would be if they'd never been subject to regulation.

While you have many fair points your basic argument seems to be "the internet is too new and the public too uninformed about bits and bytes to start charging for usage" - now while this may be true for some people I fail to understand how this changes an ISP costs or ability to both manage it's network while creating capital for future service growth. I'm sure way back when hydro was a fixed cost and they moved to usage billing someone, somewhere made same arguments many are making about bitcaps now -- there always seems to be an aspect of pain and resistance involved in anything new especially when it has the ability to affect wallets.

As for hydro not cutting you off...true, they just bill you for each and every watt and then when your bill passes a threshold in their billing system THEN they cut you off (even in the winter now) - of course they do send you threatening notices that might make you feel intimidated and make you seek to avoid the disconnection -- if you don't they'll cut you off AND charge you a reconnection fee AND possibly apply a security deposit to your account if it's happened before.

Lastly, as I've already stated somewhere in this thread I personally don't agree with the max charge, I think we should bill for every byte all the way up however the decision makers are nicer than I and I guess I can kinda understand where they're coming from which is, oddly enough, the same place you seem to be coming from which is that the general public is not yet fully up to speed on bytes and megabytes and gigabytes so they want to help this transition by helping customers avoid massive bills.
--
you can lead a horse to the water but you cannot make him drink...you can put a man through school but you cannot make him think --ben harper
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22254453 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:05:49 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22254413 diskdocx :

said by Fireblade

said by katmeef

:

I hope so, but I don't know for sure! It's not something I have anything to do with at work, or anything I can find out about from my department.

Krispy can you confirm this?

If this is the case, why limit the overage charges at all?

While I don't typically chew through 300 gigs a month, it would have been nice to know I could pay for my overages, and not have to count every byte.

I don't think either Rogers or Bell cut customers off when they hit that max overage.

Very disappointing.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22254413 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 16:57:48 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22254362 Keith Mann5 :

said by ancodia

:

People really need to cancel/reduce their video services in response to this. They desperately need the money and this is probably your only chance to hurt them.

Funny you should mention it: I'd been debating doing exactly that for some time -- I find most of the "Digital Select" channels useless and can get by with one "Theme Pack", and the most recent TMN rate increase was just too much given their horrible selection of movies and programming -- and AUB pushed me over the edge; I'll use the $40 I saved on my TV service to cover my Internet overages. I called earlier this afternoon and downgraded by video service significantly. My only regret is that the CSR (as always, very polite and professional) didn't ask me why. I guess I'll have to write to Cogeco directly.
--
Keith Mann - Dundas, Ontario, Canada
ISP: Cogeco; Service=SOHO Standard (16D/1U/200GB)
keith@keithmann.com
»www.keithmann.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22254362 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 16:47:11 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22254096 Keith Mann5 :

said by Krispy

:

As for regulation...careful what you wish for (insert my generic hydro rant here!).

Regulation is bad and definitely not something anyone wants to have happen. It will stifle innovation, quality of service and all of your providers will have no reason to offer you anything better than any other company. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22253884 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 15:29:50 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22253885 Krispy :

said by ancodia

said by Krispy

said by Keith Mann5

:

I have indeed been following that thread closely, but I'm afraid my point is being missed. Charging consumers for bandwidth has the effect of detering them from using high-bandwidth services, and this makes businesses less likely to develop and market such services. This is bad for innovation, bad for the economy, and bad for Canada, especially since politicians in the US are taking stances that oppose such charges. Cogeco's policies may be good for Cogeco, and may even be good for many of Cogeco's customers, but consumer Internet services are too important to be governed by such myopic perspectives. As a de facto monopoly that affects a critical element of our infrastructure, Cogeco must be regulated and, in this case, it must be stopped.

Krispy you know this issue is not as black & white as you (and Cogeco) keep spinning it. It goes beyond the simple 'bandwidth shortage' bs. We all know it. Give it up already.

Em...what? Where did I talk about bandwidth shortages in the post you quoted?
--
you can lead a horse to the water but you cannot make him drink...you can put a man through school but you cannot make him think --ben harper
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22253885 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 15:13:56 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22253871 ancodia :

said by Krispy

said by Keith Mann5

Krispy you know this issue is not as black & white as you (and Cogeco) keep spinning it. It goes beyond the simple 'bandwidth shortage' bs. We all know it. Give it up already.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22253871 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 15:10:35 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22253853 Krispy :

said by Keith Mann5

By this logic hydro companies negate innovation because they use usage billing and last I checked electricity was pretty important to society. As for regulation...careful what you wish for (insert my generic hydro rant here!).
--
you can lead a horse to the water but you cannot make him drink...you can put a man through school but you cannot make him think --ben harper
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22253853 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 15:07:59 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22253844 ancodia :

said by Fireblade

:

Actually, yes I am... I thought Cogeco was better than that.

Management needs to cover their butts (their losses) in their mistake in buying Cabovisao. They have no alternative but to squeeze their customer base for every penny they can get. People really need to cancel/reduce their video services in response to this. They desperately need the money and this is probably your only chance to hurt them.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22253844 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 15:06:13 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22253794 Fireblade :

said by ancodia

said by Fireblade

said by katmeef

:

I hope so, but I don't know for sure! It's not something I have anything to do with at work, or anything I can find out about from my department.

Are you suprised? I'm not. Looks like Crapeco just got Crappier.

Actually, yes I am... I thought Cogeco was better than that.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22253794 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:55:35 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22253770 ancodia :

said by Fireblade

said by katmeef

:

I hope so, but I don't know for sure! It's not something I have anything to do with at work, or anything I can find out about from my department.

Are you suprised? I'm not. Looks like Crapeco just got Crappier. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22253770 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:52:53 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22253741 Fireblade :

said by katmeef

:

I hope so, but I don't know for sure! It's not something I have anything to do with at work, or anything I can find out about from my department.

Looks like it won't be that at all, so get your fill now. I called in 5 times to confirm a post on this forum and he was 100% correct. YOU WILL BE TERMINATED FOR THE MONTH ONCE YOU REACH YOUR OVER-USAGE BANDWIDTH. Basically, you're cut off after they steal that sweet 30. Nothing has changed, except now you're charged for that extra bandwidth. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22253741 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:49:08 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22253362 anon : Krispy. Ty for the reply.

With whats going on (not just cogeco) it just adds more fuel to the fire, imo.

+1 for taking the time (thought you wouldn't).

Merci!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22253362 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 13:52:57 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22253150 peterboro1 : Just got 2 page letter today with this graph. Called in and I haven't ever gone over 20GB. I can post the rest of the letter later if anyone is interested.

April 17 2009 Cogeco warning

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22253150 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 13:21:49 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22252576 Gruesome : Back on topic, I think the charges per Byte to be the most logical and fair way of billing.
To me Internet service is like water or gas, a commodity flowing through a pipe to your home.
I wouldn't be surprised in the future to see your Internet Bill to be just like a gas or hydro bill, with network charges, and even peak time higher per gigabyte charges as they do with electricity.
Moving is this direction seems logical since phone television and Internet are basically all the same thing.
I also expect pricing will likely be regulated at some point
It seems like Cogeco's pricing plan is to gouge as many people as they can that go over the limit.
In other words don't charge .25 cents over no matter how high they go(which seems more fair)
But get big money from everyone that goes over the low limits by 10 to 20 GB.
As an example if you have the the standard package at $45 a month
You get 60 GB
Go 20 GB over and you pay $75 a month
This doesn't seem proportional at all
That's 94 cents /GB
Actually heavy downloaders would seem to have a better deal since the more they download the cheaper it gets
Under this new Scheme it would seem that someone downloading 300 GB per month will pay the same as someone downloading 80 GB per month
Their cost .25/GB lol
So basically it seems to me that anyone requiring between 10 to 20 more GB per month are going to be paying for the network upgrades to pay for the three hundred GB users
Like I said though its better to target the 10 to 20 over because there will be a lot more of them than the 300 over

Also its curious that under the new fees 60 GB would cost about $90, that means on the $45 plan you get $90 of bandwidth. What a deal!

I can only look at these fees and see them as a fine
They just seem way out of whack with existing charges]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22252576 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:57:20 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22252549 katmeef : I hope so, but I don't know for sure! It's not something I have anything to do with at work, or anything I can find out about from my department.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22252549 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:54:32 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22252526 Fireblade :

said by katmeef

:

Keith, have you read peoples experiences here »Bandwidth usage: share your experience under new rules. ?
Granted I don't know if this will be the norm or anything in the future - I'm a technician - but I think some people might end up liking this way more...

It better be the norm buddy!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22252526 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:50:35 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22252490 Keith Mann5 : I have indeed been following that thread closely, but I'm afraid my point is being missed. Charging consumers for bandwidth has the effect of detering them from using high-bandwidth services, and this makes businesses less likely to develop and market such services. This is bad for innovation, bad for the economy, and bad for Canada, especially since politicians in the US are taking stances that oppose such charges. Cogeco's policies may be good for Cogeco, and may even be good for many of Cogeco's customers, but consumer Internet services are too important to be governed by such myopic perspectives. As a de facto monopoly that affects a critical element of our infrastructure, Cogeco must be regulated and, in this case, it must be stopped.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22252490 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:44:11 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22252291 katmeef : Keith, have you read peoples experiences here »Bandwidth usage: share your experience under new rules. ?
Granted I don't know if this will be the norm or anything in the future - I'm a technician - but I think some people might end up liking this way more... ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22252291 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:14:33 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22252287 Krispy :

said by well well :

Krispy, now tell me this:

In that Hamilton article Cogeco says, "anyone using over 60-gigs is a movie thief".

I didn't say that and I don't care what the traffic is, I just care about the amount of traffic not the content.

said by well well :

Tell me, Krispy, your thoughts on this.

Well as I mentioned above I don't care what the content is but on a personal level I do find it hard to believe all the hosts downloading hundreds of gigs a month on a continuous basis are doing so with wholly legal content. But, again, ultimately I don't care what it is, I just care about the totals.

said by well well :

Since you said "suits" are looking here, Tell me, Krispy, what do the "suits" have to say about profiting off of illegal activities?

They've never said anything about it to me but maybe someone from there will heed your request and answer you but until then I have no idea.

said by well well :

Or maybe you wish to state: You are not a cogeco customer hence you can go to hell?

I would never do that, I'll answer (or not answer!) any question regardless of your customer status.
--
you can lead a horse to the water but you cannot make him drink...you can put a man through school but you cannot make him think --ben harper
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22252287 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:13:31 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22252241 Keith Mann5 : The more I've researched and thought about this issue, the more concerned I've grown and I believe that action is necessary.

Poor regulation of our Internet infrastructure today, in the information age, is as dangerous to our economy as poor regulation of transportation, power, and water infrastructures would have been in the industrial age. It must not be allowed to happen. If you're reading this, I urge you to contact the CRTC at http://www.crtc.gc.ca and your local MP via this link, and make yourself heard on this issue. Hopefully, they will follow the lead of forward-thinking US politicians like Charles Schumer and stop this thing in its tracks.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22252241 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:05:58 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22250965 anon :

said by digitalfutur

:

Average is about 40 GB. Like 98% of the Cogeco subscriber base.

Where did the 98% figure come from?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22250965 Fri, 17 Apr 2009 07:08:37 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22249800 anon :

said by well well :

In that Hamilton article Cogeco says, "anyone using over 60-gigs is a movie thief".
So in other words, Krispy, All 60-gig+ users are thiefs, pirates, and foul of the law.
Yet, Krispy, Cogeco also has a 100-gig tier.
Yet, Krispy, at the same time Cogeco says they want to profit off their customers warez and movies stealing buy charging the user more for this.
Tell me, Krispy, your thoughts on this.
Since you said "suits" are looking here, Tell me, Krispy, what do the "suits" have to say about profiting off of illegal activities?

Interesting ethical dilemma you pose.
Did you know that Revenue Canada and the American IRS insist that you report all income regardless if it is earned in the pursuit of illegal activity.
Is this a parallel conundrum?
This has always irked me. It's bad enough that they want to put me in jail for years but then tax the money I make.
That's just wrong. Just my little observation form the trenches of the criminal underground.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22249800 Thu, 16 Apr 2009 23:50:16 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22250180 digitalfutur : Just got my letter today. Before opening it I thought it was a rate increase! Charges seem pretty fair to me, but we've also never exceeded the 60 GB cap. Average is about 40 GB. Like 98% of the Cogeco subscriber base.

Bitcaps don't bode well though for legit movie downloads from Microsoft or others, which average about 5GB in HD. But then that's competition for cable VOD...

So Krispy

, did you warn Chelle

before posting this topic? She hasn't been this busy in months ! :)
--
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing - Edmund Burke. "Walk the Talk".]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22250180 Thu, 16 Apr 2009 22:41:55 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22250043 urbanriot :

said by well well :

Only Cogeco voip is exempt, yet people will complain...

I mean WTF. No chit people should/will complain. Cogeco is monopolizing voip. DUH.

I'm sorry, you expect Cogeco to count your VOIP usage against their customers bandwidth? Switch your point of view, and look at it as a benefit or a bonus to Cogeco customers.

I need crayons to connect the dots as some of you people seem to be ignoring the fact that third party VOIP uses the internet while Cogeco VOIP does not, it's on a separate stream. Again, your internet provider, whether it's Bell, Cogeco, whoever offers the internet. Your third party VOIP uses the internet. That usage counts against the bandwidth counter, as expected. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22250043 Thu, 16 Apr 2009 22:16:29 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22249905 Keith Mann5 :

said by exseven

:

nah i meant broadcast

I'm very surprised to hear that, though it certainly reinforces the argument that bandwidth is being managed inefficiently.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22249905 Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:52:35 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22249635 anon :

said by Krispy

said by x01

said by Aarawn :

I see that the bandwidth used by Cogeco VOIP is exempt from the meter. Is anything else? Are we getting a break on peering charges when traffic is within the Cogeco network, for example...

I wonder if anyone can answer this for me. Does this mean only Cogeco voip is exempt, or does this mean all voip is exempt.

Only Cogeco VOIP is exempt and at this point that's the ONLY thing that is exempt.

said by x01

:

If only Cogeco Voip is except, isn't Cogeco using it's existing monopoly to kill off other markets?

Does anyone see a problem with this.

No but I'm sure many will disagree with me and we can add another few pages to the thread while net neutrality gets dragged into (and confused by) the bitcap thread.

Heya, I was passing bye and saw this...

Yes, I see a problem. I very much do see a problem.

Eh Krispy what kind of FUD are you pulling here?

Only Cogeco voip is exempt, yet people will complain...

I mean WTF. No chit people should/will complain. Cogeco is monopolizing voip. DUH.

Krispy, now tell me this:

In that Hamilton article Cogeco says, "anyone using over 60-gigs is a movie thief".

So in other words, Krispy, All 60-gig+ users are thiefs, pirates, and foul of the law.

Yet, Krispy, Cogeco also has a 100-gig tier.

Yet, Krispy, at the same time Cogeco says they want to profit off their customers warez and movies stealing buy charging the user more for this.

Tell me, Krispy, your thoughts on this.

Since you said "suits" are looking here, Tell me, Krispy, what do the "suits" have to say about profiting off of illegal activities?
(Keep in mind Cogeco said this is ILLEGAL activities they are profiting from, per the press release)

Thanks in advance, Krispy, for any reply you have to give on the above issue.

If a "suit" replies, please identify yourself. TY.

Or maybe you wish to state: You are not a cogeco customer hence you can go to hell?

I may not be a Cogeco customer today.... Maybe people I know in Cogeco territory are also not Cogeco customers "today" (or are). But I will, and I intend to have an influence, and a say. I expect a reply.

Thanks and best regards.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22249635 Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:05:39 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22249383 x01 :

said by xeroid2

:

I JUST HAD TO COPY THIS FOR EVERYONE TO SEE:

Time Warner Cable is pulling the plug on its plan to charge its broadband customers by the byte in four U.S. cities, including Rochester, New York, ending a controversial experiment that critics said would harm internet innovation and customer pocketbooks.

The announcement came, fittingly enough, at a rally in the City of Rochester Thursday, and was made by the state's senior U.S. Senator, Chuck Schumer.

The news is a win for consumer groups like FreePress, who contended that the plan from New York-based TWC would stifle online innovation and that the company was imposing download limits to protect its lucrative cable television business from disruptive online video services.

It's a wonderful thing. How do we make Cogeco see the light?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22249383 Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:19:47 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22249268 anon :

said by x01

Actually, my point wasn't about Cogeco giving preference to their own VOIP product as it was about the relative costs of internal vs external traffic. I don't expect them to charge for that bandwidth any more than I would expect to see useage billing coming from digital cable. But lets face it, it doesn't cost Cogeco as much to transfer data internally as it does to get it in from the net.

And no, Krispy, I wasn't making a net-neutrality point because of pricing, but if Cogeco started shaping all VOIP traffic EXCEPT their own, then that would be a different matter entirely...

Personally since I don't use the phone very much, I decided to buy my own ATA and use a per minute provider. It's averaged out to around $6.50/month since August '08 (not including the $30 ebay PAP2)

But here's another question... Cogeco WiFi. Will use of a hotspot add to my transfer total? I drive truck, and I noticed that one of the places I deliver to (besides having a nice big parking lot) is beside a Cogeco WiFi location. I don't imagine there's a lot of other people connected between 12-8am. I wonder how much Usenet I can grab while I'm sleeping.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22249268 Thu, 16 Apr 2009 19:59:21 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22249258 exseven : nah i meant broadcast, multicast would be closer to switched digital where a channel is requested and then tuned vs. all channels all the time just encrypted

switched digital would be nice, freeing up bandwidth from those channels nobody watches like CPAC]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22249258 Thu, 16 Apr 2009 19:57:44 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22249198 Keith Mann5 : Well, I assume you mean multicast, not broadcast, but yes, I acknowledge that comparing DTV usage to Internet usage is a bit on the apples-to-oranges side; however, I'd argue that there's still wasted bandwidth on the DTV side caused by "always on" set-top boxes and that this could have been prevented had the industry gotten its act together. Also, I know that analog consumes an outrageous amount of bandwidth and that was sort of my point -- the fact that anyone can still get analog service is ridiculous. Simply put, I think Cogeco has put TV ahead of Internet and that's because (a) they figure there's more money in it and (b) they're a poorly regulated monopoly so nobody's stopping them. This isn't good for consumers and it isn't good for the evolution of technology.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22249198 Thu, 16 Apr 2009 19:46:16 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22249043 exseven : if you are having issues with speeds start your own thread and maybe somebody here will help you.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22249043 Thu, 16 Apr 2009 19:17:58 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22248990 anon : all i know is i pay 114.00 a month just for light high n tv.if this price gets any higher,i will go else where,and all so been not even getting the speed i pay for ya do something to get us close to what we pay for n now bump it lol whatta joke]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22248990 Thu, 16 Apr 2009 19:13:19 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22248999 urbanriot :

said by x01

Nope. Cogeco provides the internet, period. Anything that uses the internet detracts from your bandwidth counter. Third party VOIP providers use the internet thus detracts from your bandwidth counter. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22248999 Thu, 16 Apr 2009 19:10:21 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22248978 exseven : please remember TV is broadcast not unicast like your internet traffic, plus all those stations that people who watch in analog suck up 6mhz each (same for dtv channels, but you can fit many into a digital mux, and only 1 to an analog)... so get your grandma to upgrade to digital along with all the other people in the service zone and maybe the analog will be freed up for other use.

Dont forget the guy down the street with his ham radio interfering with everything, cb's that can get in or other frequency's that cant be used for whatever reason. That 700mhz gets used up pretty quickly]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22248978 Thu, 16 Apr 2009 19:07:11 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22248803 xeroid2 : I JUST HAD TO COPY THIS FOR EVERYONE TO SEE:

Time Warner Cable is pulling the plug on its plan to charge its broadband customers by the byte in four U.S. cities, including Rochester, New York, ending a controversial experiment that critics said would harm internet innovation and customer pocketbooks.

The announcement came, fittingly enough, at a rally in the City of Rochester Thursday, and was made by the state's senior U.S. Senator, Chuck Schumer.

The news is a win for consumer groups like FreePress, who contended that the plan from New York-based TWC would stifle online innovation and that the company was imposing download limits to protect its lucrative cable television business from disruptive online video services.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22248803 Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:39:52 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22248623 anon : Let me get this straight: I can keep each of my several digital set-top boxes turned on all the time (which I do -- I mean, why turn them off?), and suck up, shall we say conservatively, 20 megabits per second of bandwidth all day, every day, plus another huge whack of bandwidth for the unused analog TV signal I'm receiving, but if I exceed 100GB of IP traffic per month, I'm charged extra and deemed to be degrading service for others? Come on. This has nothing to do with Internet service and everything to do with horrendously-managed TV service. HFC provides what, 700 MHz of downstream per node? There's plenty of bandwidth to go around; the problem is that Cogeco, like the rest of the industry, is too greedy and disorganized to agree upon, develop, and manage the technologies to use it effectively.

The sad part of this is, it means that obsolete services such as conventional television networks/channels/stations will continue to thrive at the expense of IP-based services that have the potential to offer consumers an infinitely better experience.

Canada can do better, if only the CRTC would lead the way.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22248623 Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:27:07 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22248580 Krispy :

said by x01

I wonder if anyone can answer this for me. Does this mean only Cogeco voip is exempt, or does this mean all voip is exempt.

Only Cogeco VOIP is exempt and at this point that's the ONLY thing that is exempt.

said by x01

:

If only Cogeco Voip is except, isn't Cogeco using it's existing monopoly to kill off other markets?

Does anyone see a problem with this.

No but I'm sure many will disagree with me and we can add another few pages to the thread while net neutrality gets dragged into (and confused by) the bitcap thread.
--
you can lead a horse to the water but you cannot make him drink...you can put a man through school but you cannot make him think --ben harper
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22248580 Thu, 16 Apr 2009 17:57:43 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22248562 x01 :

said by urbanriot

:

Probably. NPR had a feature about it yesterday and they said they had an unexpectedly large outpouring of complaints regarding the issue.

Time Warner's retraction is also news on front page of BBR.

So what's wrong with us? Do we need to complain more?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22248562 Thu, 16 Apr 2009 17:54:32 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22248552 x01 :

I wonder if anyone can answer this for me. Does this mean only Cogeco voip is exempt, or does this mean all voip is exempt. If only Cogeco Voip is except, isn't Cogeco using it's existing monopoly to kill off other markets?

Does anyone see a problem with this. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22248552 Thu, 16 Apr 2009 17:52:27 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22248526 urbanriot : Probably. NPR had a feature about it yesterday and they said they had an unexpectedly large outpouring of complaints regarding the issue.

Time Warner's retraction is also news on front page of BBR. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22248526 Thu, 16 Apr 2009 17:47:39 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22248508 x01 : Someone pointed this out to me. Apparently Time Warner has had a change of hart about usage billing.

»blog.wired.com/business/2009/04/···c-1.html

I haven't researched this yet, so I don't know if it's true or not. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22248508 Thu, 16 Apr 2009 17:44:52 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22246313 anon : As much as I hate feeding a threadzilla...

said by Krispy

:

My argument is that people stating that "A GB costs an ISP mere cents" is akin to the teenager assuming the cost of a car is simply the cost of gas as those folks that assume an ISP just pays mere cents for transit are forgetting about the infrastructure that has to be in place (and constantly maintained) in order to get that transit to you.

I think what most people are finding wrong with this argument is that when it comes to additional bandwidth costs this is very much the case. There are both fixed and variable costs. At the beginning of the month I make my loan and insurance payments and fill my gas tank. This allows me to drive X km. If I want to drive further, gas is ALL I have to pay for. Granted, I'll be due for an oil change/new tires sooner, but the costs for wear items are trivial compared to the fixed monthly costs or the cost/km of the gas.

Simply saying that network infrastructure costs money isn't doing much to explain why overage charges aren't in line with the actual cost of the bandwidth used. After all, the network was there and paid for with the initial bandwidth. Cogeco obviously isn't losing money when people don't exceed their limits.

I see that the bandwidth used by Cogeco VOIP is exempt from the meter. Is anything else? Are we getting a break on peering charges when traffic is within the Cogeco network, for example...
- accessing Cogeco's website/webmail
- P2P between Cogeco users (perhaps even on the same node)
- Cogeco's USENET servers (as bad as their retention is)
- getting portscanned daily by multiple servers @cogeco.net

There are also several issues that should probably be addressed. So far, the overage notifications are running about a week late. How is a customer supposed to avoid extra-billing if they are not aware of their usage until after they are already getting billed?

How accurate is the billing going to be? From the posts I've seen, the currently in use monitor is pretty far from accurate. Will our bill have a guessed at number on it?

I don't mean to sound bitchy, but a lack of an accurate measurement and notification system does concern me.

I think that when other posts here said that they were willing to pay for use over their caps, they were expecting something more like what the actual bandwidth costs. As a HSI only subscriber I'm not particularly worried right now, as I don't often go over the 60GB a month, and doubling that will only cost me $2.00 to go with a business account, but what I'd really prefer was an account where I paid a base rate for the connection + bandwidth based on actual useage (at a realistic cost).

Meh, I'll stop here before this turns into more of a rant...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22246313 Thu, 16 Apr 2009 13:59:31 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22246906 anon : »www.thespec.com/News/Business/article/548008]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22246906 Thu, 16 Apr 2009 13:39:01 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22240243 Gruesome : This is hilarious, I have been testing Cogeco Standard VS Teksavvy Premium side by side for many months. I decided on that the 300Gb for 39.95 a month with Teksavvy suited my specific needs better. No big deal, not mad at cogeco or anything, just prefer a different product. What is so funny is when I went to cancel my Cogeco High Speed The guy asked why I was leaving and what I was getting and I told him. So he tries to get me to stay saying they have new tiers and pricing coming in June. I imagine this must be the new program, Lmao, imagine if I had stayed to see this.
Teksavvy is billing me .25 for going over my 300 GB
If this is the new plan, I would have been enraged.
Plus if this info is available here why was he not willing to give it to me over the phone, I have always found Cogeco very odd in the way it communicates its information.
This plan looks like a loser to me but you never know]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22240243 Wed, 15 Apr 2009 11:57:26 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22239269 Fireblade :

said by dad_of_3

:

I would suspect that anyone living near a university campus, or in a large urban area, will get the short end of the stick...While those in "granny territory" will be able to pay the $30.00 and keep on truckin...

That's what I'm thinking too, it probably explains why I could get around 170% before getting terminated while my friend got reamed at only 120% on the same package. Yay for granny territory. I'm willing to pay the $30 to go unlimited, but if they want a penny more, I'll return their kind generosity.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22239269 Wed, 15 Apr 2009 08:54:25 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22235927 mattei :

said by Steve

said by gordon freeman :

A bit more than one third for those who are not good at math. Cogeco must not know that these exist...

Sure they do - they just want you to pay for it.

He's already paid for it. A billing change has altered his online behaviour.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22235927 Tue, 14 Apr 2009 16:38:07 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22235914 mattei :

said by exseven

:

1. if the traffic ends up at your modem then i assume it will run up your usage,...

Of course it will.

said by exseven

:

...will it run up your bill, maybe...

AUP says: Of course it will.

said by exseven

:

...but how would cogeco know thats not just you download fast?

"Network Management Practices"?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22235914 Tue, 14 Apr 2009 16:35:53 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22235875 wallee : I think Cogeco should handle this the way Rogers does their portable internet USB stick thingamajig.
You by a package. It's a set price with a soft cap. Once you pass the soft cap you pay a per gig fee until you reach the next package level. Then they just bill you the next package price. You can keep passing the limits until you reach their top package which might be an unlimited package. Seems like the best way to pay for what you use.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22235875 Tue, 14 Apr 2009 16:26:50 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22234465 mousky : I personally will be using rich online media a lot less.

Exactly what Cogeco wants you to do.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22234465 Tue, 14 Apr 2009 12:37:55 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22234207 dad_of_3 :

said by katmeef

:

Once the $30 cap is reached, I then can download arbitrarily until I'm deemed to be causing problems for the network (in whatever capacity that may be).

You see, this is the slippery slope....Cogeco is going to determine what constitutes a "problem" on the network. If the criteria for this determination is similar to "pre sept 2007" , then your describing a soft cap. Personally I'm on a node that is not congested..yet..Pre sept 2007, I never, ever recieved a warning of any kind, and I went over the cap regularly, and by a lot.

I would suspect that anyone living near a university campus, or in a large urban area, will get the short end of the stick...While those in "granny territory" will be able to pay the $30.00 and keep on truckin...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22234207 Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:55:37 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22234054 anon :

said by xeroid2

:

I think Cogeco has heard enough of what it's customers are saying and thinking. Will they listen, I doubt it. Maybe it's time we take are concerns to CRTC directly.

Does anyone know how to air our concerns there? Anyone willing to start an on line petition we can send to the CRTC and Federal Government?

They are going crazy over in the teksavvy forum about Bell's new tariff, look to them for an example of what can be done. Nothing.

Resistance is futile]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22234054 Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:53:44 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22234035 QuickSurfer : »www.crtc.gc.ca

I sent my complaint in this morning.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22234035 Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:22:38 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22233873 katmeef :

said by metrotitan

:

$30/month ain't chump change to a lot of people. I personally will be using rich online media a lot less. Our household will probably end up channel surfing a little more often. Yay for Cogeco, more eyeballs on your crap.

With such low caps, the math simply doesn't add up for the "we have to do something, bandwidth is so expensive" hypothesis. Keep in mind that the caps have essentially gone DOWN since the new policy was announced (real world 85 or so gigs for the regular monthly fee before, now 60GB). I haven't heard of any spike in bandwidth costs, have you? Quite the opposite.

Yes, $30 is not a trivial amount. On the other hand, and and at risk of sounding like a broken record, transport fees are only a fraction of the cost of maintaining a network.

To me it seems (I concede I may have a biased view) that to put the previous caps side-by-side with the present is not a fair comparison. (Speaking of HSI-Standard) Yes, now it's 60G before extra billing kicks in... But once the $30 is reached, where is the end of that cap? Before - once you were done, you were done...

Ever the optimist, my personal and entirely unofficial view of this is a transition from the old days of soft&hard caps (which I always tried to avoid) to more of a pay-as-you-go structure: more bandwidth for a max of $30 dollars, and I'm not forced to get the whole $30 if I don't need it. Once the $30 cap is reached, I then can download arbitrarily until I'm deemed to be causing problems for the network (in whatever capacity that may be).

I know there were people who, with the previous system, would have liked an option to pay more and not be suspended for the rest of the month when the limits were reached.. Just as I know there are other people today who would prefer to keep things the way they were.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22233873 Tue, 14 Apr 2009 10:55:24 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22233851 exseven : i do believe the crtc has a website xeroid. but i dont want to have to type google crtc into my address bar since you didnt either]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22233851 Tue, 14 Apr 2009 10:52:23 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22233716 xeroid2 : I think Cogeco has heard enough of what it's customers are saying and thinking. Will they listen, I doubt it. Maybe it's time we take are concerns to CRTC directly.

Does anyone know how to air our concerns there? Anyone willing to start an on line petition we can send to the CRTC and Federal Government?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22233716 Tue, 14 Apr 2009 10:24:28 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22233499 Moonchild : Interesting read...

»www.tomshardware.com/news/time-w···530.html]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22233499 Tue, 14 Apr 2009 09:39:53 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22233470 CanadianIron :

said by mapledonut :

The large few ISPs like to say that it's 1% of their subscribers who aren't playing fair. That's just not the truth. They see a trend emerging and they're not happy about it.

You don't institute major policy change because of 1% of your users. You do it because in less than a year, it could be 15%-20% using as much as the 1% currently uses.
...

Current caps and metered service are both short term stop-gaps. They will not prevent the inevitable.

The only real solution is to increase network capacity.

said by Last Parade

:

We've found that 1 per cent of our customers are using the majority of our bandwidth,” Carrier said. They use the majority of our service to the point where service is getting slower for everyone else.

Even though previously people had their internet cut off when they reached the caps, the evil 1% was still interfering with everyone elses service. Now that they will be paying more money rather than being cut off, their increased usage will no longer impact anyone. Too bad we don't live in PR spinland where this would be true.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22233470 Tue, 14 Apr 2009 09:33:12 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22233185 metrotitan :

said by katmeef

said by Snickerdo

:

Cogeco's goal is to discourage the use of rich media content. Pure and simple.

Now I don't know if Gixxer's experience is going to be typical once billing is rolled out, or if it's just due to the fact this is one of the 'test' months.... however, if COGECO's goal was to 'discourage the use of rich media content' as stated, how is Gixxer already way past the point where previously he would have been suspended, (without any suspension I might add)? »Bandwidth usage: share your experience under new rules.

From his posts, looks to me like he's now able to download considerably more than was allowed before, and in exchange for this the service will cost more $$$.

$30/month ain't chump change to a lot of people. I personally will be using rich online media a lot less. Our household will probably end up channel surfing a little more often. Yay for Cogeco, more eyeballs on your crap.

With such low caps, the math simply doesn't add up for the "we have to do something, bandwidth is so expensive" hypothesis. Keep in mind that the caps have essentially gone DOWN since the new policy was announced (real world 85 or so gigs for the regular monthly fee before, now 60GB). I haven't heard of any spike in bandwidth costs, have you? Quite the opposite.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22233185 Tue, 14 Apr 2009 08:13:30 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22232771 katmeef :

said by Snickerdo

:

Cogeco's goal is to discourage the use of rich media content. Pure and simple.

said by Last Parade

:

“We’re doing this so we can give the best service to all of our customers,” said Marie Carrier, Cogeco’s director of corporate communications. “This is not something we’re doing to make money; it’s to better manage our service.”

I'm sorry to read this as it's an outright lie. If Cogeco wanted to better manage their service they could take into consideration some earlier suggestions made in this thread. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22232690 Tue, 14 Apr 2009 01:45:25 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22232664 Fireblade : I wouldn't want to be a Cogeco shareholder after how beat they got in Portugal.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22232664 Tue, 14 Apr 2009 01:37:36 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22232633 nitzguy :

said by Snickerdo

said by Steve

:

Sure they do - they just want you to pay for it.

C'mon snick, they'd be foolish not to protect that investment. There is a TON of equipment that is used to bring those cute little TV channels from headend to the subscribers home...those aren't cheap either...And if you're only hooked up to just internet paying lets say $50/mth for internet and being able to download all you want and those movies and TV shows (legitimate or otherwise) vs. having someone pay double for the same cabling?

C'mon, its a no-brainer. That's just smart business. If they think that anyone can do better, they'd challenge you to start up your very own Cable Company/Indie ISP/etc...

Cogeco's in a business to make money, and if they have to protect one side of their business by making the other side suffer, I'm sure the bean counters somewhere have said "you know, at X price, we can afford to lose Y customers and still make a profit".

They lose Y customers, they still make a profit, sure, you get some negative PR and some unhappy users but...overall, not bad, you save on having to take the time and money to upgrade network infrastructure and you still hit your revenue targets....Unfortunately in this day and age, nobody makes money by being innovative in this field. Cogeco was the first cable company Worldwide to roll out DOCSIS 1.0, but that was when innovation led to something good...not when innovation will bleed customers from your TV side of the business.

Also, network upgrades are probably not planned years in advance :). Capital budgets are set out on a year by year basis, so any upgrades that occur for FY10 are probably being tabled for the start in September 1, 2009...but I'm sure beyond that nothing is written in stone in regards to a number to complete any upgrades if scheduled.

Having excess capacity doesn't help Cogeco, so...the goal is to be as close to 100% as possible :). Again, just smart business. If I was a shareholder, I'd expect nothing less...alas, I am not :).

But, good on you I guess if you can make some noise...I don't think it'd help much though.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22232633 Tue, 14 Apr 2009 01:25:48 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22232615 Last Parade :

quote:
Cogeco targets heavy downloaders

April 13, 2009

Steve Arnold
The Hamilton Spectator

Downloading movies and other Internet content is going to get more expensive for the heaviest users.

Cogeco Inc., the largest cable-Internet operator in Ontario with more than 370,000 Internet customers, is set to start charging its heaviest users between $30 and $50 a month extra for chewing up bandwidth.

“We’re doing this so we can give the best service to all of our customers,” said Marie Carrier, Cogeco’s director of corporate communications. “This is not something we’re doing to make money; it’s to better manage our service.”

Cogeco is not the first Canadian Internet provider to impose such charges — Rogers and Bell Sympatico both added caps and special charges last year.

Most Internet plans come with a monthly cap on the amount of information you can send or receive. For Cogeco, that cap ranges between 10 and 100 gigabytes.

For most customers that’s more than enough — Cogeco’s standard Internet package comes with a 60-gig cap in a month. That’s enough to visit 1.25 million web pages or send and receive 6 million e-mails.

It only gets to be a problem when you start downloading movies — they average four gigs each and a high-definition movie can be up to 10 gigs.

Starting June 1, customers will be charged between $1 and $2.50 for each gig of data over their limit. Overage charges will be capped at between $30 and $50 a month depending on your plan.

“We’ve found that 1 per cent of our customers are using the majority of our bandwidth,” Carrier said. “They use the majority of our service to the point where service is getting slower for everyone else.

“The only people who will pay these overcharges are those who download movies a lot,” she added. “We want to make the customer responsible for their usage.”

The new fees apply to residential users only, but plans are being developed for business users.

sarnold@thespec.com
905-526-3496

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22232615 Tue, 14 Apr 2009 01:20:36 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22232533 Snickerdo :

said by Steve

:

So you're saying that the light users ought to be subsidizing the heavy users, where usage can differ by many orders of magnitude?

No, I'm saying a network should be planned properly so that the ratios are in place to prevent bullshit like this from happening. Not only that, but those "lite" users aren't so lite anymore. It's bad planning, pure and simple.

Basically, what Cogeco is doing is the equivalent of an employer not only not giving you a cost of living increase raise, but also making you take a paycut. Multimedia content has risen considerably in the last few years. Instead of planning their network to handle these bandwidth loads, they're trying to cut people off. If their network can't handle the load, fine. What I find insulting is this whole 'bandwidth isn't free' argument. Bandwidth costs money. Network maintenance costs money. What is insulting is that we're being expected to believe that the extra $30 or $50 or whatever is actually going to have an impact. It won't. That's not Cogeco's goal. Cogeco's goal is to discourage the use of rich media content. Pure and simple.
--
I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22232533 Tue, 14 Apr 2009 00:52:03 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22232531 anon :

said by Perctrax :

The amount of bandwidth consumed in DDoS'ing you to the amount that would cause concern would be more than enough that you'd definitely notice and would be such a massive attack that it would be impossible for your ISP not to notice. Your scenario is an exaggerated scenario that would probably never happen and I'm sure your ISP would take care of it if it did.

If you have a contrary opinion to this then the onus is on you to run a bandwidth monitor to prove this is a problem in the event that it happens.

Note to self: only DDoS during off-peak hours so no one will notice.

As metered billing of residential connections (potentially) increases, and data-centre/pwned bandwidth remains competitive and cheap, I see this becoming an actual problem, especially for those that have sub10gb limits.

I guess another factor is whether the same IP gets spooled out or not with every restart.

But you are correct, it sounds exaggerated now. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22232531 Tue, 14 Apr 2009 00:51:15 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22232147 Steve : So you're saying that the light users ought to be subsidizing the heavy users, where usage can differ by many orders of magnitude?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22232147 Mon, 13 Apr 2009 23:13:00 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22232140 Snickerdo :

said by Steve

:

How would you suggest they pay for these network upgrades? In any case it's going to come from the users, and it doesn't seem ridiculous to make the heavy users pay more for it.

Network upgrades are planned years in advance. If they're only just out of money for upgrades now, that means they weren't planning anything correctly years ago. If that's the case, just imagine what it will be like five years from now. We'll either have 10GB bandwidth limits with $10/GB for overages, or we'll have a network so broken that it'll be like the old Wave days.
--
I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22232140 Mon, 13 Apr 2009 23:10:48 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22232128 Steve :

said by Snickerdo

:

This isn't about losing money on bandwidth, this is about finding a way to not have to invest in network upgrades.

How would you suggest they pay for these network upgrades? In any case it's going to come from the users, and it doesn't seem ridiculous to make the heavy users pay more for it.

Steve
--
Stephen J. Friedl | Unix Wizard | Microsoft Security MVP | Orange County, California USA | my web site]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22232128 Mon, 13 Apr 2009 23:07:19 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22232108 Snickerdo :

said by Steve

:

Sure they do - they just want you to pay for it.

... which doesn't cost Cogeco anywhere near $1/GB. Not even ballpark. We're talking exponential differences here. I know what Tier 1 and 2 transit costs. I've debated this with Cogeco folks through IMs.

These fees exist for no reason other than to discourage node traffic, which in turn prevents them from having to invested in upgraded network infrastructure. This isn't about losing money on bandwidth, this is about finding a way to not have to invest in network upgrades. It's also about discouraging use in online television and the like, since this effects Cogeco's core TV business. When the TV side starts losing money, the loss needs to be made up somewhere.
--
I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22232108 Mon, 13 Apr 2009 23:03:57 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22232078 Steve :

said by gordon freeman :

A bit more than one third for those who are not good at math. Cogeco must not know that these exist...

Sure they do - they just want you to pay for it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22232078 Mon, 13 Apr 2009 22:57:20 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22232030 anon : Was going to buy Orange Box and Saints Row 2 on steam (Yes I know PC version of Saints Row isnt all that good, but hey it's on sale $29.99.)

Uh-oh! 20+ GB download for legitimate online software from an online distribution system!??!?!!? Guess I cannot download it, since this would be a pretty big chunk of bandwidth under the 60GB limit. A bit more than one third for those who are not good at math. Cogeco must not know that these exist...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22232030 Mon, 13 Apr 2009 22:46:47 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22231660 anon :
A throughput cap will only hurt consumers and legitimate transfer-intensive services like steam, youtube hd, xbox live, and other upcoming video sites.

The large few ISPs like to say that it's 1% of their subscribers who aren't playing fair. That's just not the truth. They see a trend emerging and they're not happy about it.

You don't institute major policy change because of 1% of your users. You do it because in less than a year, it could be 15%-20% using as much as the 1% currently uses.

Online content providers are now offering larger quality services and more transfer-intensive services. Cogeco certainly didn't like that. They have to pay for traffic outside their own network.

Current caps and metered service are both short term stop-gaps. They will not prevent the inevitable.

The only real solution is to increase network capacity.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22231660 Mon, 13 Apr 2009 21:41:04 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22231635 urbanriot :

said by x01

:

I'm not sure if anyone is aware, but it would seem that Time Warner Cable company is instituting a similar policy to cogeco.

Not just them, but a number of ISP's in various other EU countries and a friend in India also complained his ISP instituted caps. It's like a big ISP "Generate More Revenue" symposium was held somewhere, and everyone decided to equally suck. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22231635 Mon, 13 Apr 2009 21:36:53 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22231347 x01 : I'm not sure if anyone is aware, but it would seem that Time Warner Cable company is instituting a similar policy to cogeco.

Apparently the Americans are pissed.

Just some reading if anyone is interested if anyone cares.

»arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news···caps.ars

»www.tomshardware.com/news/time-w···530.html]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22231347 Mon, 13 Apr 2009 20:42:50 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22230811 anon : The amount of bandwidth consumed in DDoS'ing you to the amount that would cause concern would be more than enough that you'd definitely notice and would be such a massive attack that it would be impossible for your ISP not to notice. Your scenario is an exaggerated scenario that would probably never happen and I'm sure your ISP would take care of it if it did.

If you have a contrary opinion to this then the onus is on you to run a bandwidth monitor to prove this is a problem in the event that it happens. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22230811 Mon, 13 Apr 2009 19:52:10 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22230662 exseven :

said by x01

:

1. Will it possible to force data onto my internet connection that will cause my meter to spin? What if someone on the internet decided to perform a dos attack on my ip address just to run up my bill? Is this possible?

2. If I believe this is the case, or I believe that the metering is not accurate, or incorrect will I have any recourse? The only reason I ask this is because in the past I have gotten an warning, and when looked at my usage on the cogeco website, I was well with in my limits. When I called tech support and asked, I was simply told that the website was inaccurate.

1. if the traffic ends up at your modem then i assume it will run up your usage, will it run up your bill, maybe but how would cogeco know thats not just you download fast?

2. again i dont know what billing/call center will do for this but if you think the meter is inaccurate why not run your own at home to compare with before the billing starts... just make sure it is off the wan port of your router not a lan port (and getting only part of the traffic)

edit: »www.polarcloud.com/tomato]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22230662 Mon, 13 Apr 2009 18:33:29 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22230571 x01 : I was thinking about the usage billing today and came up with a few question that hopefully someone will be able to answer.

A couple of months ago I remember reading about how gamers were cheating with online games by flooding an opponent ip address which would cause the opponent to be kicked from what ever gaming server due to lag.

Now my question are.

1. Will it possible to force data onto my internet connection that will cause my meter to spin? What if someone on the internet decided to perform a dos attack on my ip address just to run up my bill? Is this possible?

2. If I believe this is the case, or I believe that the metering is not accurate, or incorrect will I have any recourse? The only reason I ask this is because in the past I have gotten an warning, and when looked at my usage on the cogeco website, I was well with in my limits. When I called tech support and asked, I was simply told that the website was inaccurate.

I'm not sure all these possibilities have been thought out completely. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22230571 Mon, 13 Apr 2009 18:11:20 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22230372 x01 :

said by medjed :

Switching to TekSavvy after being 8+ years with Cogeco.

The usage billing is ridiculous, definitely not worth my money.

I couldn't agree with you more. I think I'm in the exact same boat. I've been with cogeco since the beginning. At the moment I'm sitting on the fence until I get my first bill, but after that, I believe that will be my course of action.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22230372 Mon, 13 Apr 2009 17:40:08 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22224562 anon : Switching to TekSavvy after being 8+ years with Cogeco.

The usage billing is ridiculous, definitely not worth my money.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22224562 Sun, 12 Apr 2009 14:18:57 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22224081 diskdocx :

said by Fireblade

:

Just got this in the mail an hour ago - it's about a week late.

No, it's actually about 2 weeks too early.

But don't worry, they should be able to fix that before actual overage charges start.

:P]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22224081 Sun, 12 Apr 2009 11:53:00 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22223498 Fireblade : Just got this in the mail an hour ago - it's about a week late.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22223498 Sun, 12 Apr 2009 08:00:26 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22222347 diskdocx :

said by Hamilton1

:

I for one certainly hope I'm wrong, but hey if they want $1.50 for one measily Gb, and they didn't ditch the pro account then I don't see them letting us standard users get 150Gb's for only $75 when pro users would pay $120 for the same amount of bandwidth.

Boy do I hope I'm wrong but I guess time will tell.

No argument at all. But I'm not sure how Cogeco could cut you off. In their AUP, the rationale for cutting a user off is if they interfere with the network.

If you are on a node where downloading over 100 gigs causes excessive disruption, then I assume they could not sell any plan with over 100 gigs of transfer.

I would think the CRTC might be interested if customers were being cut off for disruption, but being reconnected if they moved to a more expensive (and faster) plan.

Remember, these billing changes are to ensure that everyone has access to a high quality internet experience (wink, wink), so I'm sure Cogeco wouldn't oversell a congested node.

And, if there's no congestion, and no problem with residential customers paying for 100gig Pro accounts, or 200gig Business accounts, I can't see any reason, per Cogeco's new AUP, why a Standard account using 150-200 gigs would cause any problems.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22222347 Sat, 11 Apr 2009 21:11:19 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22222252 anon : Personally, I'm waiting to hear from some enterprising user who decided to hell with the caps he was going to download all he could to see what cogeco did.

If they charge you the $30 AND shut off the net, april will be the last month I'm a cogeco subscriber. If it's $30 max and you can download to your hearts content, I can deal with it. It's a scam, but I can deal with it. I far prefer to watch my TV on the internet when it's convenient for me then at a predetermined time over the airwaves or via cable tv or satellite. $30 to keep my habit up I guess I can deal with.

But ladies and gentlemen, don't believe the hype, bandwidth is cheap. I personally run a few servers for my company (a web development firm) and I can buy 1500GB blocks of data for literally a few dollars.

Don't believe me? Check out godaddy.com, 1500gb transfer for $6.99 a month. So how can cogeco justify $1.50/gb? More money does NOT equal less network congestion...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22222252 Sat, 11 Apr 2009 20:39:23 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22221546 anon : Clipped out most of that, hoping for a quick and short answer to something I must have missed. I have not recieved anything in the mail from Cogeco except invoices. Just want to know when this for real kicks in so I know the general (or exact if you have it) date to call in to drop from Pro to Standard, please?

said by Krispy

:

Here’s your officially unofficial notice that shortly you will be receiving a letter informing you of a change to bitcap policies as Cogeco begins usage billing – note that there will be a 2 month monitoring period where numbers appear on your bill but NO MONEY IS CHARGED TO YOU during this 2-month period, this is to help customers understand what the impact will be to them BEFORE we start to bill. The letter will have full details but basically the gist is that there’ll be a per Gigabyte overage charge dependent on plan with a maximum charge, for example

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22221546 Sat, 11 Apr 2009 19:07:13 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22221313 Hamilton1 : I for one certainly hope I'm wrong, but hey if they want $1.50 for one measily Gb, and they didn't ditch the pro account then I don't see them letting us standard users get 150Gb's for only $75 when pro users would pay $120 for the same amount of bandwidth.

Boy do I hope I'm wrong but I guess time will tell.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22221313 Sat, 11 Apr 2009 16:23:12 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22221099 diskdocx :

said by Hamilton1

said by diskdocx

:

My money is on between 150-200 gigs on Standard.

My guess is when you hit 100Gb's your going to get an email warning and then after 105Gb's your toast unless you agree to upgrade to the pro account.

Right. Because downloading over 100gigs on Standard would cause "network congestion", which would interfere with other users on your node. Upgrading would of course fix all that :P

Time will tell. I still think it is unlikely that Cogeco would be that ballsy.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22221099 Sat, 11 Apr 2009 15:33:04 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22220725 rickardsred :

said by stew2 :

Thank you, Cogeco, for making the decision to switch to TechSavvy so easy.

Until Bell gets the CRTC to pass their latest tarrif which will impose the same caps and usage based billing onto all DSL resellers....Welcome to the Internet in Canada 2009! Enjoy the illusion of choice...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22220725 Sat, 11 Apr 2009 13:37:39 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22220382 Hamilton1 : I think they need to redesign the meter to include the $30 Cap and then add some on top of that.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22220382 Sat, 11 Apr 2009 12:14:45 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22220207 roxx :

said by stew2 :

Thank you, Cogeco, for making the decision to switch to TechSavvy so easy.

Ditto this action Stew... I just downgraded from the enterprise tier and I am moving in a few weeks. I can guarantee once we get settled into the new house we will not be going back to Cogeco.

Take that to the powers that be Krispy. I am sure some other company will be glad to get my dollars in this down economy. The actions they are taking are leaving a very sour taste in even the higher tier customers. Its only a matter of time before you start limiting our UNLIMITED use, which I will have you know still had the 512 gig limit in the bandwidth page after numerous complaints to get it changed.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22220207 Sat, 11 Apr 2009 11:22:34 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22219904 Hamilton1 :

said by diskdocx

:

My money is on between 150-200 gigs on Standard.

My guess is when you hit 100Gb's your going to get an email warning and then after 105Gb's your toast unless you agree to upgrade to the pro account.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22219904 Sat, 11 Apr 2009 09:40:55 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22218865 anon : Thank you, Cogeco, for making the decision to switch to TechSavvy so easy.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22218865 Fri, 10 Apr 2009 23:36:43 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22218471 diskdocx : My money is on between 150-200 gigs on Standard.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22218471 Fri, 10 Apr 2009 21:59:31 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22218455 vuarra : Perhaps we should start wondering exactly when you will be cut off ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22218455 Fri, 10 Apr 2009 21:56:44 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22217823 katmeef :

said by Fireblade

:

Looks like you made this post seconds before I posted this one! :p

jinx you owe me a soda!! :p]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22217823 Fri, 10 Apr 2009 19:53:24 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22217764 Fireblade :

said by katmeef

:

LOL @ Hitting jackpot, makes me wanna go play some slots :)

good to hear there's no problems.. I am too lazy to do the math atm, are you at the point where you would have hit the $$$ cap yet?

Looks like you made this post seconds before I posted this one! :p

The red bar was full long before the additional usage bandwidth would have been used up. I was at 120% the day before yesterday and it was full. So, as it stands I don't think we need to worry about that right now. The jackpot reward seems to be another day with internet service! Huray!

Here's proof.

1.50 x 20 = $30]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22217764 Fri, 10 Apr 2009 19:43:08 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22217756 katmeef :

said by Fireblade

:

I hit the jackpot 2 days ago, no e-mails, warnings, phone calls, slowdowns, etc.

LOL @ Hitting jackpot, makes me wanna go play some slots :)

good to hear there's no problems.. I am too lazy to do the math atm, are you at the point where you would have hit the $$$ cap yet?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22217756 Fri, 10 Apr 2009 19:41:30 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22217344 Fireblade :

said by katmeef

said by Fireblade

:

I noticed that once you reach 100% bandwidth consumption for the month, your gauge after 100% turns red instead of green and it slowly increases. What happens when it hits the top? Termination for the month?

See here

Did you hit the top of the red section / what happened?

I hit the jackpot 2 days ago, no e-mails, warnings, phone calls, slowdowns, etc.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22217344 Fri, 10 Apr 2009 18:21:40 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22216866 katmeef :

said by Fireblade

Did you hit the top of the red section / what happened?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22216866 Fri, 10 Apr 2009 16:46:32 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22216002 mattei :

said by Krispy

said by mattei

:

That's before we get into intentional RSTs.

Believe me, don't believe me...up to you but the reality is we do not do intentional RSTS - cross my heart, hope to die, stick a needle in my eye. The Vuze report was compiled using 23 alleged Cogeco customers with zero details as to their hardware or internal network settings.

After reading a few of the related links here it looks like there was some debate on the subject over time. I believe that Cogeco does not intentionally reset TCP sessions (fake/forged RST, in the Comcast sense). I'm going based on what I've read in under an hour, not anything I claim to have seen or done personally. Will application layer DPI cease when metered billing takes effect? If not, will DPI-based "rate shaping" continue on monetized transfer units?

said by Krispy

said by mattei

:

I've heard rumors of DOCSIS v3 but until I see a new modem I'll be assuming v1.1.

I've seen the modem and I've got the speedtests to prove it.....well I will when I go home and do a new speedtest tonight so it shows up at the top again! Check »/archive?cid=19 later on tonight if you're interested.

Tease. Now I feel like I'm driving around in suburbia with a 1 litre tank after watching my sports car being driven on mountain roads in an advertisement, at 150+ km/h, without speed traps or obstacles. I've still gotta pay the same insurance, deal with the same maintenance schedule, use half my tank to get to the gas station,... :p ;)

v3.0 can clear up many of the concerns I listed if applied properly.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22216002 Fri, 10 Apr 2009 14:14:53 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22214510 katmeef :

said by xeroid2

:

Online shoppers -- Companies could pay Internet providers to guarantee their online sales process faster than competitors with lower prices -- distorting your choices as a consumer.

How does one equate UBB to manipulation of eBay or Kajiji search results?

True I don't have any hard facts other than what I've learned in this thread, but I can certainly say that UBB is not going to cause that!! lol :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22214510 Fri, 10 Apr 2009 09:14:27 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22214338 xeroid2 : Net Neutrality: an information post

In the live television interview posted above, Louis Audet said yesterday that charging for going over caps is the answer to net neutrality. HUH? No explanation so I have no idea what he is talking about? I'm not sure if he knows what he is talking about? He also said that those who use more bandwidth will pay more and those that use less bandwidth will pay less? NOT TRUE ... those that use less will pay the same today and more tomorrow!

This is just the beginning. Cable and telco giants want to eliminate the Internet's open road in favor of a tollway that protects their status quo while stifling new ideas and innovation.

How does this threat to Internet freedom affect you?
Such corporate control of the Web would reduce your choices and stifle the spread of innovative and independent ideas that we've come to expect online. It would throw the digital revolution into reverse. Internet gatekeepers are already discriminating against Web sites and services they don't like:

Who will be affected?

Small businesses -- The little guy will be left in the "slow lane" with inferior Internet service, unable to compete.

Innovators with the next big idea -- Startups and entrepreneurs will be muscled out of the marketplace by big corporations that pay Internet providers for the top spots on the Web.

Bloggers -- Costs will skyrocket to post and share video and audio clips -- silencing citizen journalists and putting more power in the hands of a few corporate-owned media outlets.

Google users -- Another search engine could pay dominant Internet providers like Cogeco to guarantee another search engine opens faster than Google on your computer.

iPod listeners -- A company like Cogeco could slow access to iTunes, steering you to a higher-priced music service it owns.

Online shoppers -- Companies could pay Internet providers to guarantee their online sales process faster than competitors with lower prices -- distorting your choices as a consumer.

Telecommuters -- When Internet companies like Cogeco favor their own services, you won't be able to choose more affordable providers for online video, teleconferencing, Internet phone calls, and software that connects your home computer to your office.

Parents and retirees -- Your choices as a consumer could be controlled by your Internet provider, steering you to their preferred services for online banking, health care information, sending photos, planning vacations, etc.

Political groups -- Political organizing could be slowed by a handful of dominant Internet providers who ask advocacy groups to pay "protection money" for their Web sites and online features to work correctly.

Nonprofits -- A charity's website could open at snail-like speeds, and online contributions could grind to a halt if nonprofits don't pay Internet providers for access to "the fast lane."

Big phone and cable companies are trying to eliminate Net Neutrality, the principle that protects our ability to go where we want and do what we choose online.

I think I understand now what Louis Audet might have meant when he said "charging for going over caps is the answer to net neutrality". Maybe he meant it's going to help Cogeco gain control over what they can control on the internet? A potential new revenue generator for Cogeco at our expense!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22214338 Fri, 10 Apr 2009 08:15:07 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22211637 xeroid2 :

said by money shift :

[Dividends won't last long, here is where your money is going.
»ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/0904···s/cogeco

No surprise in this story. When faced with competition at their Portugal Operations, something Cogeco is not use to here in Canada, they fail miserably. Cogeco plans to take the gloves off in its fight against growing competition in Portugal after writing down about half of its investment there due to deep customer losses.

"We currently have a problem in Portugal," CEO Louis Audet conceded during a conference call. "We are well aware of it and we are taking decisive steps to fix it."

Cabovisao ( Portugal ) accounts for just 16 per cent of Cogeco Cable's overall EBITDA earnings.

Let me guess ... there's little competition here in Canada so if Cogeco just raises our rates by 16% .... problem solved!

So lets see now ... if you or I screw up in business, make a bad investment or can't be creative enough to deal with competition can we then just turn around and raise our rates to our very own loyal customers to make up for our own mistakes?

It would be wise right now for Cogeco to hang on to it's solid and loyal customer base here in Canada, find ways to reduce overhead, costs and improve the services they offer before competition strikes here in Canada without raising rates! When competition does arrive, Cogeco has already shown that they will struggle.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22211637 Thu, 09 Apr 2009 17:55:52 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22211606 peterboro1 : Cogeco CEO on BNN right now with that sexy muffin Amanda and uncle Kevin talking about caps.
Open your wallets.

»www.bnn.ca/squeezeplay.aspx]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22211606 Thu, 09 Apr 2009 17:51:29 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22211333 anon :

said by xeroid2

said by ancodia

:

You're arguing with a company shill. They'll never concede any valid point you make.

That is evident.

said by ancodia

:

Only thing you can do is cancel services as that is all they will understand.

So true and why many are now shopping around.

said by ancodia

:

We will all find out in 3-6 months when the quarterly reports come out if this was a money grab or not.

Don't have to wait ... Google now and you will see Cogeco is paying high dividends in a recession.

Dividends won't last long, here is where your money is going.
»ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/0904···s/cogeco]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22211333 Thu, 09 Apr 2009 17:11:30 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22208803 xeroid2 :

said by ancodia

:

You're arguing with a company shill. They'll never concede any valid point you make.

That is evident.

said by ancodia

:

Only thing you can do is cancel services as that is all they will understand.

So true and why many are now shopping around.

said by ancodia

:

We will all find out in 3-6 months when the quarterly reports come out if this was a money grab or not.

Don't have to wait ... Google now and you will see Cogeco is paying high dividends in a recession.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22208803 Thu, 09 Apr 2009 16:52:41 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22208747 ancodia :

said by xeroid2

said by Krispy

said by justice7ca :

What i'd like to see are competitive rates to Teksavvy .. and by competitive, i dont mean the same as or better, but generally close.

I don't mean to dismiss your suggestion at all but just remember that Teksavvy is not the same as Cogeco as they don't have to maintain a massive infrastructure like we do.

PURE LOAD OF CRAP ... that's like saying everyone in Ontario who rents apartments don't pay property tax. Of course Teksavvy pays for infrastructure through who ever they would rent their infrastructure from.

You're arguing with a company shill. They'll never concede any valid point you make.

Only thing you can do is cancel services as that is all they will understand.

We will all find out in 3-6 months when the quarterly reports come out if this was a money grab or not. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22208747 Thu, 09 Apr 2009 16:52:37 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22211257 ancodia :

said by ComcastRulesAll :

It's obvious this is a direct attack on people who download TV shows and movies. That is Cogeco's cash cow. It's also obvious that anybody working for cogeco is never going to admit it.

It's much easier to just cry "cost of network", that way they don't have to prove it (there is no way anyone could except cogeco), and the only people who would not believe Cogeco are the people that know all about this stuff, which unfortunately is not the majority.

Corporate misdirection at it's finest.

Guess 'cost of network' includes loses in bad investments ...

MONTREALâ€“Cogeco Cable Inc. reported Thursday a $358.6 million second-quarter loss as the cable TV and Internet provider booked an after-tax $383.6-million non-cash charge related to its Portuguese subsidiary.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22211257 Thu, 09 Apr 2009 16:47:56 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22210490 anon : It's obvious this is a direct attack on people who download TV shows and movies. That is Cogeco's cash cow. It's also obvious that anybody working for cogeco is never going to admit it.

It's much easier to just cry "cost of network", that way they don't have to prove it (there is no way anyone could except cogeco), and the only people who would not believe Cogeco are the people that know all about this stuff, which unfortunately is not the majority.

Corporate misdirection at it's finest.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22210490 Thu, 09 Apr 2009 14:31:56 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22210544 metrotitan :

said by justice7ca :

said by metrotitan

:

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner. This is about manipulating client behaviour to maintain their old content delivery models.

If true, this won't work. People can and will switch to an ISP if this is indeed the case and people are being forced to use their internet in a limited way.

Shaping a user's behaviour is the name of the game; it's the most logical conclusion based on freely available evidence (anyone needing a primer should re-read the entire thread and follow the recent happenings with our neighbours to the south). I wish I could switch to TekSavvy, but for some reason I can only get 512k service in my area. Cogeco's gotta love that (not a shot, any business welcomes money).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22210544 Thu, 09 Apr 2009 14:24:43 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22210161 ancodia : Even if it's just cancelling TMN package, cancel something. Drive down the ARPU. They'll notice that.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22210161 Thu, 09 Apr 2009 13:07:02 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22209927 anon :

said by metrotitan

:

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner. This is about manipulating client behaviour to maintain their old content delivery models.

If true, this won't work. People can and will switch to an ISP if this is indeed the case and people are being forced to use their internet in a limited way.

Rather than keeping customers and potentially making money from them as an ISP, they'll simply move elsewhere. Cogeco likely sees themselves as a Television media company first and foremost; once they change that perspective they might understand they're equally an internet service provider.

If they treat their ISP customers like crap, its likely when they call someone else they may drop their Television at the same time.

Makes you wonder if they think things through...

We'll see how this pans out though. Krispy can't say anything other than good things, and many of you are trying to get Krispy to acknowledge corporate greed or something; even if true.. you'll never see K admit it, because of who this person represents.

I have had good experience with cogeco's internet service; they provide fantastic speeds at all hours for me. What i'm afraid of is a degradation in cost vs value.

You would think adding more customers, newer equipment and more up to date systems should in fact LOWER your TCO for your infrastructure costs, since routers improve, link speeds improve and bandwidth gets cheaper.

If things are getting better with the technology (and cheaper); we're doing something wrong.

I'm not as blunt to say corporate greed, i think its just more looking at the problem from a Cable TV point of view rather than an ISP one.

/rant]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22209927 Thu, 09 Apr 2009 12:25:35 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22209678 metrotitan :

said by SmallWig

:

TSI is a ISP while Cogeco is a CSP (Content Service Provider).

This is why Cogeco is extremely careful to not cannibalize itself. It will be interesting to see how the max overage fees play out.

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner. This is about manipulating client behaviour to maintain their old content delivery models.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22209678 Thu, 09 Apr 2009 11:45:32 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22209646 bricktoppp : This is a money grab. Cogeco could slow your connection down to dial-up speed or cut you off after you go over the cap. Having your internet cut off automatically to avoid incurring extra charges isn't an option, this is all about scamming customers out of their money, not network capacity.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22209646 Thu, 09 Apr 2009 11:41:23 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22209395 Hamilton1 : I loved the analogy that was described in the article a lot better than the speeding analogy that was delivered here.

First, the response: Time Warner Cable COO Landel Hobbs wrote earlier this week of the need for people to pay for the bandwidth they consume. "When you go to lunch with a friend, do you split the bill in half if he gets the steak and you have a salad?" he asked.

Fair enough. Bandwidth costs (a little bit of) money, and there's certainly no reason for customers to demand the ability to transfer 4TB of data a month for one flat fee. But TWC's steak/salad analogy breaks down when it's crafted more accurately. The real question is whether you would even have lunch with a friend at a restaurant that charged $45 for a salad and $200 for a steak. Certainly, in a free market, most people would go elsewhere.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22209395 Thu, 09 Apr 2009 11:00:33 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22209260 anon : Hmmm...

Looks like it's a bumpy ride in the states for you cash grabbing ISP's

»arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news···caps.ars]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22209260 Thu, 09 Apr 2009 10:32:05 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22208649 xeroid2 :
said by Krispy :

said by justice7ca :

What i'd like to see are competitive rates to Teksavvy .. and by competitive, i dont mean the same as or better, but generally close.

I don't mean to dismiss your suggestion at all but just remember that Teksavvy is not the same as Cogeco as they don't have to maintain a massive infrastructure like we do.

PURE LOAD OF CRAP ... that's like saying everyone in Ontario who rents apartments don't pay property tax. Of course Teksavvy pays for infrastructure through who ever they would rent their infrastructure from. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22208649 Thu, 09 Apr 2009 07:27:31 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22208646 xeroid2 :
said by Krispy :

[All that said, do I think this is corporate "greed" - with my real world professional hat (note that I didn't say 'Cogeco' hat but 'professional' hat) on I say no, this is not corporate "greed" but rather a company doing what it's supposed to in this capitalistic society we live in which is to cover operating costs, create capital for future growth and services and pay it's shareholders so they continue to believe and invest in us so we can continue to grow.
Cogeco is not your NORMAL business. How did the company start? .... Is there political control behind the scenes we all don't understand? Why do I recall something about our former Prime Minister John Chretian and his brother being involved?

Most small businesses struggle to maintain there operating costs, and create capital for future growth. THIS is mostly caused by COMPETITION. Something Cogeco has yet to be really faced with. So in the mean time, Cogeco is taking full advantage of a lack of competition as well as taking full advantage of their own customers. This is what pisses people off. There really isn't justification in paying a CEO 1.5 million a year not to mention all the other high salaries Cogeco is paying out. All from the back pockets of your paying customers, lets not forget. Do you really think it takes an intelligent person worth 1.5 million to figure out how to increase the bottom line for Cogeco by raising rates and squeezing caps with little competition. Do you really think this intelligence is worth 1.5 million. I'd think if there were 30 internet providers of the same quality of services in Ontario and your CEO could figure out a way to make Cogeco the profit leader then perhaps he/she would be worth paying a reasonable salary with a percentage of profit sharing.

Your real world professional hat must be pulled over your eyes!!! ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22208646 Thu, 09 Apr 2009 07:22:53 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22207941 SmallWig :
said by Krispy :

I don't mean to dismiss your suggestion at all but just remember that Teksavvy is not the same as Cogeco as they don't have to maintain a massive infrastructure like we do.

Great bridging technique. »www.aboutpublicrelations.net/ucmillen1.htm

You are correct Teksavvy is not the same as Cogeco. TSI is a ISP while Cogeco is a CSP (Content Service Provider).

This is why Cogeco is extremely careful to not cannibalize itself. It will be interesting to see how the max overage fees play out.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22207941 Thu, 09 Apr 2009 00:04:38 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22207548 Fireblade :
said by dad_of_3 :

That being said, I personally would rather more bandwidth than speed, which is why after June I will switch to standard, probably will pay the overasge most months. I download a lot, this makes more sense for me as well....The kicker for me will be the "magic" number. I live in Granny country, I know my node isn't close to being congested...So I'm hopeful

Same here, not too many people in my area use Cogeco - most of the people on my street don't even own a computer.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22207548 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 22:26:46 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22207441 dad_of_3 :
said by Hamilton1 :

From what I've seen even with pro most don't get anywhere near the 16 Mbps which is what the big difference is between the 2 accounts.

Standard $45 + $30 cap limit = $75
Pro $70 + $50 cap limit = $120
So a difference of $45 + Tax = $50.85

So which do you think most would rather pay if bandwidth wasn't an issue?

Seems like a no brainer to me, which is why I would assume there is a cap but we just aren't being told what it is right now.

I was just pointing out that there are a lot of people that don't download a lot, and that perhaps 16 Mbit is more to their liking (compared to having tons of bandwidth). I'm on Pro, I get a constant 15.2 Mbit..

That being said, I personally would rather more bandwidth than speed, which is why after June I will switch to standard, probably will pay the overasge most months. I download a lot, this makes more sense for me as well....The kicker for me will be the "magic" number. I live in Granny country, I know my node isn't close to being congested...So I'm hopeful ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22207441 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 22:02:34 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22206665 katmeef :
said by urbanriot :

Katmeef somehow tied that analogy into the congestion issue, and if the analogy is referencing transit costs, then... I have no idea.
I meant that there's much more to the cost of the network than just the bandwidth alone. I was bringing it up in reference to previous posts in the thread, I should have quoted it I guess to avoid any confusion, but was too sleepy to find it (working nights).

said by urbanriot :

But if Cogeco is claiming they're doing this to relieve congestion than my previous suggestions to advertise an off meter billing time will push a massive amount of heavy downloaders into off peak times which should completely resolve the congestion issue.
I am far removed from any department that deals with billing, I honestly don't know any more about usage billing or caps than what has been posted here. Please don't take my agreement with a previous posters analogy as any sort of official claim. :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22206665 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 19:26:39 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22205632 uber69er : If you remember I was a contributor to that thread.
We established that even with my "annal and hyper vigilant" efforts to save money it was all for nought.
I like your idea that users should be billed for every bit they use.
If in your Gene Roddenberry world (you stole that from chronoss by the way) where the base rate for my service was
adjusted combined with your model would I end up like I will with hydro.
Cogeco just sqeezing my efforts into profit? ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22205632 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 16:19:44 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22205492 Krispy :
said by mattei :

OSI layers 1 through 4? Ok. We're paying for metered use of layer 3 and above (not PDUs, right?) when subscribed to HSI. All of Cogeco's digital service offerings use the same physical network for data transport. Analogue television still holds a chunk of the available bandwidth on that same network. Care to get specific?
While I can't get into details in a public forum let's just say that's something being worked on as many with a digital box in certain areas may or may not notice. Yes I'm being vague but I have to for competitive/confidentiality reasons but if you read between the lines I'm saying that this (and many of your points below) were a factor in the decision making.

said by mattei :

That's before we get into intentional RSTs.
Believe me, don't believe me...up to you but the reality is we do not do intentional RSTS - cross my heart, hope to die, stick a needle in my eye. The Vuze report was compiled using 23 alleged Cogeco customers with zero details as to their hardware or internal network settings.

said by mattei :

I've heard rumors of DOCSIS v3 but until I see a new modem I'll be assuming v1.1.

I've seen the modem and I've got the speedtests to prove it.....well I will when I go home and do a new speedtest tonight so it shows up at the top again! Check »/archive?cid=19 later on tonight if you're interested.
--
you can lead a horse to the water but you cannot make him drink...you can put a man through school but you cannot make him think --ben harper
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22205492 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 15:54:35 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22205426 Krispy :
said by justice7ca :

What i'd like to see are competitive rates to Teksavvy .. and by competitive, i dont mean the same as or better, but generally close.

I don't mean to dismiss your suggestion at all but just remember that Teksavvy is not the same as Cogeco as they don't have to maintain a massive infrastructure like we do.
--
you can lead a horse to the water but you cannot make him drink...you can put a man through school but you cannot make him think --ben harper
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22205426 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 15:45:19 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22205409 Krispy :
said by urbanriot :

Krispy, someone might have mentioned an email address in a previous thread - I'm wondering if there's someone that we can direct our personal complaints and/or suggestions to or if this is the best place for that? I checked the Cogeco web site and I didn't see an email that might be suitable.

I have a snail mail address but just clarifying if there's an email address I can direct you all to so I'll get back to you on this.
--
you can lead a horse to the water but you cannot make him drink...you can put a man through school but you cannot make him think --ben harper
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22205409 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 15:43:20 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22205401 Krispy :
said by uber69er :

I understand and agree with the analogy, but I see some people are suggesting time of use like the new hydro meters.
Thus the metrics change and the powers that be might consider this.
I've been doing my best to avoid bringing hydro billing into this but since you brought it up I'd just suggest you be careful what you wish for! If it makes anyone feel better know that the frustration you feel towards internet usage billing pales in comparison to my utter hatred of hydro companies for such things as my most recent battle with them »Does anyone here have a Hydro Smart Meter ?. Also note that with hydro I pay a deliver rate to get the electricity to them, a rate to deliver the electricity to me, a percentage to account for loss during transit and a debt retirement charge on top of the regular and TOU charges AND when my hydro goes out not only is my internet gone but I don't have water (I have a well and sumb pump) -- to be brutally honest I wish a fraction of those upset my internet usage billing were half as outraged at what the energy companies are doing....but I take a breath and digress :)

Now back on the topic of TOU, actually I personally agree with this and I believe it will eventually happen and you'll all probably hate me even more for saying this but in my personal opinion there should be no max charge, users should be billed for every bit they use all the way up and it's up to the user to manage their usage -- see, bet you didn't think you could hate me more eh?! Seriously though, there are many reasons I believe in this with the most important being my bias leaning in network security...people would care more about the spam spewing from their system or the malware automagically scanning their neighbours if they had to pay for that traffic. BUT that's just my personal opinion and I guess you're all lucky I'm not the decision maker.

said by uber69er :

Although what some have pointed out is that it would be contrary to their corporate "greed".
Your thoughts?

Well as I've explained in the past I kinda dug a hole for myself years back when I decided to identify myself as an employee on the forum so I can't really give you ALL my thoughts and that's not due to someone in management saying I can't but rather my own concern about a customer deciding to take something I said in the wrong context and scream at every Cogeco official they can find and make them do something to me (sad but it happens). Additionally this is a massive subject that I couldn't succinctly pull together in X words given the broad audience here - for example mattei has some interesting points but he/she also appears to have a better grasp of the technology so while I could probably have a more in-depth conversation with mattei and others that understand a cable network this would confuse other people and then they might take something out of context and freak out and then I'm spending the rest of my days in the neverending thread trying to explain myself. Lastly there's the confidentiality issues, there are simply some things that can't be posted in public for competitive reasons and when I got hired way back when I signed an agreement saying I wouldn't disclose this info.

All that said, do I think this is corporate "greed" - with my real world professional hat (note that I didn't say 'Cogeco' hat but 'professional' hat) on I say no, this is not corporate "greed" but rather a company doing what it's supposed to in this capitalistic society we live in which is to cover operating costs, create capital for future growth and services and pay it's shareholders so they continue to believe and invest in us so we can continue to grow. With my Utopian weekend bandanna on I would say yes in the same way I'd claim that the farm market owner down the street is greedy for marking up a can of soup 60% when he should be giving it away free to those in the community. But here is where I will stop and just say I'd love to live in Gene Roddenberry land but I don't and, for the last time, this is not the thread to debate economics in.
--
you can lead a horse to the water but you cannot make him drink...you can put a man through school but you cannot make him think --ben harper
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22205401 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 15:42:06 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22205235 Hamilton1 : From what I've seen even with pro most don't get anywhere near the 16 Mbps which is what the big difference is between the 2 accounts.

Standard $45 + $30 cap limit = $75
Pro $70 + $50 cap limit = $120
So a difference of $45 + Tax = $50.85

So which do you think most would rather pay if bandwidth wasn't an issue?

Seems like a no brainer to me, which is why I would assume there is a cap but we just aren't being told what it is right now.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22205235 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 15:14:29 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22205189 diskdocx :
said by Hamilton1 :

I'm sorry but If Cogeco didn't cut a standard user that has a max of 60Gb off after using more than 100gb, then what's the sense of even offering a pro plan?

If I were on the pro plan and saw that the standard subscriber could get unlimited usage after paying the 30 then why in the world would I stay on pro where I already pay an extra $25 + tax and then would pay up to 50 dollars more to get unlimited???? It just doesn't make any sense, and you would have to be a complete moron to do it.

So is there a clear answer here? is there a set limit for a STANDARD USER "60Gb" after the $30 limit is reached? or 80Gb

I raised this exact question waaaay back on page 2, and Krispy did respond to it by saying she would pass the concerns along.

In my opinion, the only benefit to the Pro plan is the speed. But, since practically the only time I see anywhere near to max speed is when I'm transferring off usenet, it is definitely a trivial overall advantage.

I did calculate out that the break even point, for monthly cost + overage is 105 gigs - anything less than that would be cheaper on Pro (unless you aren't hitting 60 gigs), anything more would be significantly cheaper on Standard.

IMO you need to either increase the Pro cap (perhaps 150 or even 200 gigs), have lower (not higher) maximum overage (say $20) or abandon it completely.

As far as the vague network disruption cutoff, there is NO WAY on Standard that you could cut a user off before 150 gigs, since that is defined as allowable on the Pro package (100gig base, + max $50 in overage at $1/gig means you are allowed to use 150 gigs on Pro).

I would think that a legitimate CRTC complaint could be made if Cogeco cut off a standard user at less than 150 gigs, due to network disruption, but would allow them to use 150 gigs, at a faster speed, if they pay more and upgrade to a Pro account. Disrupting the network isn't solved by paying more money.

I would think that if you are going to be using in the neigbourhood of 100-200 gigs, then likely you'll have no problems staying on standard. If you intend to be using upwards of 200 gigs, in otherwords well over the maximum overage even on Pro, then you likely will be getting cut off on Standard, and in fairness probably should be on the Pro account.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22205189 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 15:07:26 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22204983 mattei : OSI layers 1 through 4? Ok. We're paying for metered use of layer 3 and above (not PDUs, right?) when subscribed to HSI. All of Cogeco's digital service offerings use the same physical network for data transport. Analogue television still holds a chunk of the available bandwidth on that same network. Care to get specific?

I believe bit transfer caps in any network shift usage patterns and concentrate demand. The result, at peak, is an increase (lower GB accounting, higher 95th percentile).

Congestion problems really do cost the customer money in a metered scenario. A network incapable of handling peak demand will distort any normalized bandwidth ratio optimizations resulting in artificial connection limitation (under utilized downstream), downstream retransmission packet cost (byte accounting inflation from delayed ACKs), and request packet (CM->CMTS, limited contention slots) collisions among a host of problems.

That's before we get into intentional RSTs. Something that relates to the throttling occuring since 2001 on Cogeco's network.

quote:
Cogeco admits they started throttling back in 2001 instead of moving to metered billing, which they claim "would not dissuade ‘abuses’ of the network."

Is HSI multi-channel upstream yet (just HSI, I'm not referring to the whole pipe)? Dedicated stream for Cogeco's VoIP service...or is v1.1 QoS (UGA to Best Effort) the preferred arbiter? I've heard rumors of DOCSIS v3 but until I see a new modem I'll be assuming v1.1.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22204983 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 14:30:03 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22204977 ancodia : if only our government/crtc wasn't so spineless ...

»Politicians Oppose Time Warner Cable Meters]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22204977 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 14:28:59 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22204962 anon : What i'd like to see are competitive rates to Teksavvy .. and by competitive, i dont mean the same as or better, but generally close.

»www.teksavvy.com/en/resdsl.asp?ID=7&mID=1

At least add these:

# Other Charges

* Additional Bandwidth - $0.25/GB/mo.
* Pre-Purchased Blocks - $10/100GB/mo.
* $25 - Moving during the first month of the activation date
* $25 - For any speed change after activation(ex: from 5 Meg to Basic, ...)

Let me log in online and buy blocks of 100GB at a time or something.

They unlimited account as Krisspy had mentioned is far above and beyond the cost of switching to DSL. The speed difference from 5M and 10M doesn't mean as much to me as the bandwidth cap. I spend very little "time" downloading as it is. 60GB might have worked fine back in 2000, but now it feels like we're being limited.

Why do i feel like they're taking cues from cellphone companies with these plans? I hate telus/bell for those..

Raise the bitcaps, 150GB (standard) / 250GB (pro) respectively, imo.

A lot of people, myself included have never ever talked about switching from Cogeco.

We're discussing those options now.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22204962 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 14:27:03 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22204958 dad_of_3 :
said by Hamilton1 :

I'm sorry but If Cogeco didn't cut a standard user that has a max of 60Gb off after using more than 100gb, then what's the sense of even offering a pro plan?

It just doesn't make any sense, and you would have to be a complete moron to do it.

Your only taking "bandwidth" into account, theres a significiant difference in speed as well between standard and pro..

said by Hamilton1 :

So is there a clear answer here? is there a set limit for a STANDARD USER "60Gb" after the $30 limit is reached? or 80Gb

This has already been answered...they won't tell you the actual upper limit...because it will depend on the congestion of your node, customer complaints.. etc..]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22204958 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 14:26:14 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22204900 urbanriot :
said by xeroid2 :

There is only one thing we all can do to send Cogeco a clear message.
I'm sorry, you might have left out what that clear thing was to do?

Krispy, someone might have mentioned an email address in a previous thread - I'm wondering if there's someone that we can direct our personal complaints and/or suggestions to or if this is the best place for that? I checked the Cogeco web site and I didn't see an email that might be suitable. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22204900 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 14:12:59 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22204893 Hamilton1 : I'm sorry but If Cogeco didn't cut a standard user that has a max of 60Gb off after using more than 100gb, then what's the sense of even offering a pro plan?

If I were on the pro plan and saw that the standard subscriber could get unlimited usage after paying the 30 then why in the world would I stay on pro where I already pay an extra $25 + tax and then would pay up to 50 dollars more to get unlimited???? It just doesn't make any sense, and you would have to be a complete moron to do it.

So is there a clear answer here? is there a set limit for a STANDARD USER "60Gb" after the $30 limit is reached? or 80Gb]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22204893 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 14:12:16 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22204828 xeroid2 :
said by Krispy :

said by urbanriot :

I don't understand your analogy and I don't believe that you can translate car / gas to [????] / internet (?!)

Since it seems to be confusing some people I'll explain (note that I said explain and not defend)...

Imagine you have a 16 year old and they come to you and say "Hey, I got my license and I want a car" and you say "Sure, you have to pay for it yourself though" and they say "Ok, here's $20...done" because they're of the belief that a car costs $20 as that's all it costs them to hop in your car and drive to wherever as they're a teenager and not intimately aware that you speny thousands of dollars initially for the car or that you have to pay a monthly insurance fee or that you have to bring it in for maintenance, etc.

My argument is that people stating that "A GB costs an ISP mere cents" is akin to the teenager assuming the cost of a car is simply the cost of gas as those folks that assume an ISP just pays mere cents for transit are forgetting about the infrastructure that has to be in place (and constantly maintained) in order to get that transit to you.

OH YES KRISPY ... and don't forget the 1.5 MILLION you pay your CEO as well as all the other executives salaries. If you can't see corporate greed in this decision, then your blind as a bat!

There is only one thing we all can do to send Cogeco a clear message.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22204828 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 13:57:54 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22204806 urbanriot :
said by Krispy :

My argument is that people stating that "A GB costs an ISP mere cents" is akin to the teenager assuming the cost of a car is simply the cost of gas as those folks that assume an ISP just pays mere cents for transit are forgetting about the infrastructure that has to be in place (and constantly maintained) in order to get that transit to you.
Ah, then that's a different argument. I have no idea what transit costs are and I'm not about to pretend that I do. While I might be able to figure out the raw costs, I'd probably leave out some form of overhead and even then I have no idea what Cogeco's various costs are, or whether or not they're optimized or streamlined.

Katmeef somehow tied that analogy into the congestion issue, and if the analogy is referencing transit costs, then... I have no idea.

Again, if Cogeco is doing this to cover operating costs, fine - admit it and be done with it.

If Cogeco is doing this to save up money to rebuild their network, fine - admit that and be done with it.

If Cogeco just wants more money, fine, that's acceptable.

But if Cogeco is claiming they're doing this to relieve congestion than my previous suggestions to advertise an off meter billing time will push a massive amount of heavy downloaders into off peak times which should completely resolve the congestion issue. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22204806 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 13:53:30 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22204772 uber69er :
said by Krispy :

said by urbanriot :

I don't understand your analogy and I don't believe that you can translate car / gas to [????] / internet (?!)

Since it seems to be confusing some people I'll explain (note that I said explain and not defend)...

Imagine you have a 16 year old and they come to you and say "Hey, I got my license and I want a car" and you say "Sure, you have to pay for it yourself though" and they say "Ok, here's $20...done" because they're of the belief that a car costs $20 as that's all it costs them to hop in your car and drive to wherever as they're a teenager and not intimately aware that you speny thousands of dollars initially for the car or that you have to pay a monthly insurance fee or that you have to bring it in for maintenance, etc.

My argument is that people stating that "A GB costs an ISP mere cents" is akin to the teenager assuming the cost of a car is simply the cost of gas as those folks that assume an ISP just pays mere cents for transit are forgetting about the infrastructure that has to be in place (and constantly maintained) in order to get that transit to you.

I understand and agree with the analogy, but I see some people are suggesting time of use like the new hydro meters.
Thus the metrics change and the powers that be might consider this.
Although what some have pointed out is that it would be contrary to their corporate "greed".
Your thoughts? ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22204772 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 13:46:17 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22204748 CanadianIron : nm misread]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22204748 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 13:42:42 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22204718 Krispy :
said by urbanriot :

I don't understand your analogy and I don't believe that you can translate car / gas to [????] / internet (?!)

Since it seems to be confusing some people I'll explain (note that I said explain and not defend)...

Imagine you have a 16 year old and they come to you and say "Hey, I got my license and I want a car" and you say "Sure, you have to pay for it yourself though" and they say "Ok, here's $20...done" because they're of the belief that a car costs $20 as that's all it costs them to hop in your car and drive to wherever as they're a teenager and not intimately aware that you speny thousands of dollars initially for the car or that you have to pay a monthly insurance fee or that you have to bring it in for maintenance, etc.

My argument is that people stating that "A GB costs an ISP mere cents" is akin to the teenager assuming the cost of a car is simply the cost of gas as those folks that assume an ISP just pays mere cents for transit are forgetting about the infrastructure that has to be in place (and constantly maintained) in order to get that transit to you.
--
you can lead a horse to the water but you cannot make him drink...you can put a man through school but you cannot make him think --ben harper
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22204718 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 13:36:16 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22204645 Krispy :
said by justice7ca :

We should be able to buy the bandwidth if we want to pay for it.

You can, we have several packages including a truly unlimited tier (yes it's marketed as commercial package but anyone can subscribe).
--
you can lead a horse to the water but you cannot make him drink...you can put a man through school but you cannot make him think --ben harper
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22204645 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 13:26:43 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22204066 urbanriot :
said by katmeef :

I believe caps in any network help to prevent congestion problems.
If this were true then Cogeco would not count late evening / early morning bandwidth towards the bandwidth cap, and would advertise this 'bandwidth free time', as that would free up a massive amount of congestion - 80% of the congestion, if earlier provided numbers are accurate!

said by katmeef :

The analogy that a car costs more than gas stands true for me.
I don't understand your analogy and I don't believe that you can translate car / gas to [????] / internet (?!) ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22204066 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 11:48:55 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22203881 dad_of_3 :
said by justice7ca :

said by bricktoppp :

Cogeco is going to cut users off right when they reach the $30 limit. "Temporarily disconnected" means no internet until next month.

I'd really like to find out if there's any truth to this.

If i'm going to be cut off after hitting the monthly "limit", this is extremely draconian.

If by paying up to that limit, i've got unlimited to a soft cap of some insane figure like 400GB, then I think it is completely fair.

Which way is it?

Lets say a standard account (60GB cap), downloads 80GB (20 over, @ $1.50 per GB, thats $30 cap), are you cut off?

also, lets say a standard account (60GB cap) downloads 200GB, WAY over the $30 cap; would they be able to?

The point of my question is; is the purpose of the cap to protect the customer or cogeco?

The answer to this question is containd in the very first post to this thread ...point #4

My understanding is that after you have hit the $30.00 max, then your basically on a (unknown) soft cap. This is how it was pre sept 2007..If another customer on your node complains of congestion, and Cogeco investigates, and sees that you are over and reached the max, and still going strong..then you could (like then) get cut off..]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22203881 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 11:21:36 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22203797 katmeef :
said by justice7ca :

I'm not entirely sure yet as to if it is true that you get cut off after the cap or not.

This is the deal breaker for me; with the added cost to bandwidth caps I'm expecting more for more money. Not stricter limits than we're used to.

We should be able to buy the bandwidth if we want to pay for it.

I really don't think people are going to get cutoff as soon as they hit the top of the overage. I don't think anyone here know's for sure yet, we might all end up having to wait and see.

said by SmallWig :

Caps have never been about protecting the customer. Caps have always been about protecting the legacy video offering from being cannibalized.

Thinking purely from the point-of-view of layers 1-4 of the OSI model (I'm stuck here for some reason), and not wanting to offend anyone, I respectfully do not agree.

I believe caps in any network help to prevent congestion problems.

Congestion problems really do cost a lot of money to fix. I can't stress it enough - If that were not the case, I think all networks would be open. (at least from layers 1-4's point-of-view)

The analogy that a car costs more than gas stands true for me. Also, I agree that it's unfair to make people who do not use so much bandwidth pay more, just as it's unfair for them to have slow speeds for their websurfing due to being in a congested node... or whatever it is those people do.. send emails and play scrabble? I'll have to ask my mom...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22203797 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 11:04:57 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22203689 anon :
said by ancodia :

said by SmallWig :

said by justice7ca :

The point of my question is; is the purpose of the cap to protect the customer or cogeco?

Caps have never been about protecting the customer. Caps have always been about protecting the legacy video offering from being cannibalized.

In essence caps are purely about protecting the bottom line for Cogeco.

Amen to that! If you want to protest, cancel any/all video packages you have.

I'm not entirely sure yet as to if it is true that you get cut off after the cap or not.

This is the deal breaker for me; with the added cost to bandwidth caps I'm expecting more for more money. Not stricter limits than we're used to.

We should be able to buy the bandwidth if we want to pay for it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22203689 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 10:44:37 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22203654 ancodia :
said by SmallWig :

said by justice7ca :

The point of my question is; is the purpose of the cap to protect the customer or cogeco?

Caps have never been about protecting the customer. Caps have always been about protecting the legacy video offering from being cannibalized.

In essence caps are purely about protecting the bottom line for Cogeco.

Amen to that! If you want to protest, cancel your video packages or addons you have.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22203654 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 10:38:57 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22203584 SmallWig :
said by justice7ca :

The point of my question is; is the purpose of the cap to protect the customer or cogeco?

Caps have never been about protecting the customer. Caps have always been about protecting the legacy video offering from being cannibalized.

In essence caps are purely about protecting the bottom line for Cogeco.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22203584 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 10:27:31 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22203524 Hamilton1 : I'd love to know the answer to that as well.... I've been told by my friend on Rogers that after they exceed their 60Gb limit they are charged up to $25 max and then it is unlimited as he's seen people post that download up to 2Gb's worth of data.

After thinking about this for a bit it would only make sense that Cogeco will probably cut the 60Gb or Standard package off after they go over a 100Gb's, and the reason I say this is if they didn't then I would assume anyone that's on the pro or 100Gb's would obviously revert back to the standard and save the $25 + Tax.

Hopefully Krispy or someone else from Cogeco can clear this up for the rest of us.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22203524 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 10:16:38 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22203472 anon :
said by bricktoppp :

Cogeco is going to cut users off right when they reach the $30 limit. "Temporarily disconnected" means no internet until next month.

I'd really like to find out if there's any truth to this.

If i'm going to be cut off after hitting the monthly "limit", this is extremely draconian.

If by paying up to that limit, i've got unlimited to a soft cap of some insane figure like 400GB, then I think it is completely fair.

Which way is it?

Lets say a standard account (60GB cap), downloads 80GB (20 over, @ $1.50 per GB, thats $30 cap), are you cut off?

also, lets say a standard account (60GB cap) downloads 200GB, WAY over the $30 cap; would they be able to?

The point of my question is; is the purpose of the cap to protect the customer or cogeco?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22203472 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 10:04:58 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22203272 Fireblade :
said by katmeef :

64 gig already?? At this rate, maybe you may be the first person to find out. :)

Honestly I've been holding back this entire time :(]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22203272 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 09:28:07 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22203284 anon : Certainly gives the impression you'll be cut off when the meter reaches the top.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22203284 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 09:22:05 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22202931 katmeef :
said by Fireblade :

I noticed that once you reach 100% bandwidth consumption for the month, your gauge after 100% turns red instead of green and it slowly increases. What happens when it hits the top? Termination for the month?

64 gig already?? At this rate, maybe you may be the first person to find out. :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22202931 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 07:45:29 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22202912 dad_of_3 :
said by Fireblade :

What happens when it hits the top? Termination for the month?

I guess that depends on if other customers on your node complain :-/

-infamous grey area-]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22202912 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 07:37:47 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22202630 Fireblade : I noticed that once you reach 100% bandwidth consumption for the month, your gauge after 100% turns red instead of green and it slowly increases. What happens when it hits the top? Termination for the month?

See here
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22202630 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 05:41:49 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22202597 katmeef :
said by bricktoppp :

Cogeco is going to cut users off right when they reach the $30 limit. "Temporarily disconnected" means no internet until next month.

No.... That's not my understanding anyways..]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22202597 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 04:00:32 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22202498 bricktoppp : Cogeco is going to cut users off right when they reach the $30 limit. "Temporarily disconnected" means no internet until next month. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22202498 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 02:42:28 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22201741 katmeef :
said by wallee :

When I read the line about max $30 overage charge I assume that would mean they cut you off when you get to the $30 mark at a $1.50 per gig over your 60 gigs a month. Wouldn't it be stupid of them (from their point of view) to allow us unlimited downloading after a max overage charge? Why bother? Cogeco's not going to give us an unlimited account for $70 a month.

Please see the first post on page one of the thread.

"4. What happens if I download lots even though I’ve hit my maximum charge?

If the activity is degrading the service to other customers we’ll temporarily interrupt your connectivity like we do today"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22201741 Tue, 07 Apr 2009 22:59:12 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22201129 wallee :
said by justice7ca :

I really have mixed feelings about the usage changes.

I will certainly be coming close to, or going over the 60GB limit. I never used to, but since getting a PS3, 360 and more electronic media i'm downloading more and more these days.

Add hulu and other media streaming sites which the gf is addicted to; it adds up even more. On top of whatever misc downloading we all do.

I'd feel a lot better knowing what the hard cap after the $30 overage limit really is. At least ballpark.

I think paying $70/month for unlimited internet download caps at standard speeds would be very fair. Of course, a ballpark 'over usage cap' of anywhere from 300-500GB would make sense, just to make sure people aren't running servers on residential accounts.

Even then, shutting down a customer should be taken into consideration ONLY when they are affecting the bandwidth of other users.

What i'd like to see happen, is a difference between peak download times and non-peak.

Another idea. 60GB peak hours (6pm-10pm) downloads would be fair, and leave the rest as unlimited.

Damn. You can get Hulu to stream to Canada? Won't do it for me.

When I read the line about max $30 overage charge I assume that would mean they cut you off when you get to the $30 mark at a $1.50 per gig over your 60 gigs a month. Wouldn't it be stupid of them (from their point of view) to allow us unlimited downloading after a max overage charge? Why bother? Cogeco's not going to give us an unlimited account for $70 a month.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22201129 Tue, 07 Apr 2009 21:01:27 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22199467 anon : I really have mixed feelings about the usage changes.

I will certainly be coming close to, or going over the 60GB limit. I never used to, but since getting a PS3, 360 and more electronic media i'm downloading more and more these days.

Add hulu and other media streaming sites which the gf is addicted to; it adds up even more. On top of whatever misc downloading we all do.

I'd feel a lot better knowing what the hard cap after the $30 overage limit really is. At least ballpark.

I think paying $70/month for unlimited internet download caps at standard speeds would be very fair. Of course, a ballpark 'over usage cap' of anywhere from 300-500GB would make sense, just to make sure people aren't running servers on residential accounts.

Even then, shutting down a customer should be taken into consideration ONLY when they are affecting the bandwidth of other users.

What i'd like to see happen, is a difference between peak download times and non-peak.

Another idea. 60GB peak hours (6pm-10pm) downloads would be fair, and leave the rest as unlimited.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22199467 Tue, 07 Apr 2009 15:38:14 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22199121 Krispy :
said by peterboro1 :

Krispy, Is that access to security for $2.00 something new or did I miss that on my bill?

Access to security for Lite package (and now new Lite Plus) for $2/mo has always been around - it's free for Standard and Pro as always.
--
you can lead a horse to the water but you cannot make him drink...you can put a man through school but you cannot make him think --ben harper
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22199121 Tue, 07 Apr 2009 14:35:20 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22199075 peterboro1 : Krispy, Is that access to security for $2.00 something new or did I miss that on my bill?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22199075 Tue, 07 Apr 2009 14:25:58 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22198984 Krispy : FYI, there's been some details added to the www.cogeco.com page

»www.cogeco.com/en/internet_suppo···g_o.html

and the packages have been updated to include the usage billing rates,

»www.cogeco.com/en/high-speed-int···-_o.html
--
you can lead a horse to the water but you cannot make him drink...you can put a man through school but you cannot make him think --ben harper
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22198984 Tue, 07 Apr 2009 14:10:24 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22198327 mattei : There are plenty of examples in the aerospace, agricultural, medical, and military engineering fields. I like your link, though :).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22198327 Tue, 07 Apr 2009 12:25:23 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22197745 urbanriot :
said by Snickerdo :

Considering that I can go to Pacific Mall and get a copy of whatever I want for dirt cheap, I don't think law enforcement is going to be all too concerned with people downloading stuff off the interwebs for their own personal use.
Those Pacific Mall guys have been arrested more times than I can count by the RCMP.

This discussion interests me, so I've moved it over here if anyone is interested in continuing:

»Legality of downloading copyrighted works in Canada]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22197745 Tue, 07 Apr 2009 10:46:12 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22197372 ancodia : We all know the reason behind ubb is to protect legacy video technology as they are terrified of streamed/downloaded video contect. So if you really want to send a message but don't want to cancel your Internet service, downgrade your video package as much as possible or even better just have Internet service. As much as ubb is a cash cow for Cogeco, their video services are a whole herd of cows :) ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22197372 Tue, 07 Apr 2009 09:35:10 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22197314 Chelle : Probably best to keep this thread to usage billing and save the copyright stuff for a separate one.

Thanks!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22197314 Tue, 07 Apr 2009 09:17:39 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22197286 Snickerdo :
said by Shyte :

Umm hope you don't have to use that reason in court someday. If you're downloading ripped movies, you're breaking the copyright infringement law, same with music.I agree with the wallet comment, I haven't gone to a movie store in years.. Just rent the odd movie thrugh my Apple Tv box... Same price, and can get it HD as well.
Actually, in the case of music, Canadian courts have ruled that merely downloading music is not a violation of copyright law. One must be willingly distributing the music for there to be a violation. By "willingly" they mean you must be actively engaged in the distribution, having the music residing on a shared folder on your hard drive and merely available for others to download is not a violation either, just like having a photocopier in a library isn't a violation of copyright law, even though it could be used for such.

No legal test exists for downloading motion pictures, so one cannot say just exactly how the courts would rule. They could theoretically use the music rulings as a precedent, though.

Considering that I can go to Pacific Mall and get a copy of whatever I want for dirt cheap, I don't think law enforcement is going to be all too concerned with people downloading stuff off the interwebs for their own personal use.
--
I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22197286 Tue, 07 Apr 2009 09:08:53 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22197260 Shyte :
said by Fireblade :

said by urbanriot :

said by Fireblade :

Renting movies, people still do that?
Yes. Not everyone is breaking the law.

It isn't illegal to download media in Canada as long as you aren't re-selling the content. Using Usenet to download games, music and movies is perfectly legal in Canada. The only thing you're breaking is your wallet, especially in a recession!

Umm hope you don't have to use that reason in court someday. If you're downloading ripped movies, you're breaking the copyright infringement law, same with music.I agree with the wallet comment, I haven't gone to a movie store in years.. Just rent the odd movie thrugh my Apple Tv box... Same price, and can get it HD as well..]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22197260 Tue, 07 Apr 2009 09:02:36 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22196578 SmallWig : I have found the asterisk.

From their website:

"*** Usage rates may be changed by Cogeco upon 30-day notice. We wish to remind you that these additional charge and maximum limit do not limit in any way our contractual right to temporarily suspend or restrict your access to your Internet service or to take any other actions deemed appropriate, if your consumption exceeds a reasonable limit, as determined by Cogeco in its sole judgment, or for any other violation of the AUP or T&Cs, in accordance with the terms of such AUP and T&Cs."

This is troublesome wording. Meaning there is a cap on how far one can go. Just not publish for its customers. It looks like they will call it abuse if you pass the next tier level. Then up-sell you.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22196578 Tue, 07 Apr 2009 01:49:31 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22196463 Fireblade :
said by SmallWig :

The problem with the maximum overage fee is that it will have an asterisk next to it. It will be in the AUP/TOS with some kind of vague definition of abuse. Even in off peak hours I would be surprised if one could download the maximum during that period. Cogeco will suggest you get a 'proper' plan for your needs. Meaning up-selling.

That's what has me worried too, I'll be conducting tests on the month of June when all this shenanigans starts. Shamans made a thread we can all post in about our experience. »Bandwidth usage: share your experience under new rules. I've started a bit early.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22196463 Tue, 07 Apr 2009 01:09:07 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22196433 SmallWig :
said by IloveToast :

These kinda things are why I am going to be testing what exactly "maximum of 30" means....woo doggy!

The problem with the maximum overage fee is that it will have an asterisk next to it. It will be in the AUP/TOS with some kind of vague definition of abuse. Even in off peak hours I would be surprised if one could download the maximum during that period. Cogeco will suggest you get a 'proper' plan for your needs. Meaning up-selling.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22196433 Tue, 07 Apr 2009 00:58:44 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22196340 katmeef :
said by IloveToast :

yea, I just imagine the germs on those disks....who knows who has been touching them. There is always weird stains on them!
now I'm going to be all wierded out when I get my next shipment of movies :)

Bad mental image...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22196340 Tue, 07 Apr 2009 00:29:02 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22196319 IloveToast : yea, I just imagine the germs on those disks....who knows who has been touching them. There is always weird stains on them!

Having a netflix account and soon as American PSN store starts offering 1080P movies I am all over that! That stuff will probably never come to canada because of these shitty bit caps. These kinda things are why I am going to be testing what exactly "maximum of 30" means....woo doggy!
--
omgbbq!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22196319 Tue, 07 Apr 2009 00:23:49 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22196292 katmeef :
said by Fireblade :

From what I've been reading, once I pay the $30 in usage fees, my account is pretty much unlimited as long as I don't do any heavy downloading in peak times. I don't burn the media, it's a full stream from my Storage Server -> PS3 -> HDTV. So far it's been working really well. :D
Touché :) I forgot about the cap on the overage fees.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22196292 Tue, 07 Apr 2009 00:19:29 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22196274 katmeef : I use zip.ca just because they mail out the discs. Their shipping is pretty fast, although not as fast as downloading of course..

It was a bit of an adjustment after my many years of trying to archive the internet... :) ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22196274 Tue, 07 Apr 2009 00:15:24 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22196230 IloveToast : zip.ca is a joke, doesn't even offer download or streaming.
Netflix actually detects your connection speed automatically, then throttles the Bit rate stream to give you a "delivered quality". Then depending on your connection speed, you can get pretty good quality.
Picture is on par with Cogeco HD or a little worst sometimes, only thing they don't have is surround sound....yet. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22196230 Tue, 07 Apr 2009 00:04:56 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22196166 Fireblade :
said by IloveToast :

Anyways, there are many other legit ways to get 1080P movies, just get an american netflix account...boom done...gee, I wonder why netflix hasn't expanded into canada *cough cough*
Netflix isn't full blu-ray quality - I can get better quality blu-rays from Usenet. I have looked into Netflix many times and it isn't for me - though I've been reading that Netflix wants to bring full quality blu-ray streaming to the PS3. We'll see if that ever comes out, but I'm sure Sony will have none of it.

said by katmeef :

With the new billing system though, could the overage costs for the 18GB (assuming it's over the cap) plus the cost of your media to burn it be more than just buying the Blu-Ray movie?
From what I've been reading, once I pay the $30 in usage fees, my account is pretty much unlimited as long as I don't do any heavy downloading in peak times. I don't burn the media, it's a full stream from my Storage Server -> PS3 -> HDTV. So far it's been working really well. :D

said by katmeef :

Another point in support of purchasing the Blu-Ray: if your Blu-ray player and HDTV are capable of displaying 24P 'True Cinema', you'll only be able to enjoy that feature on the Blu-Ray. At least as far as I've been able to determine, this is only supported via HDMI, only when using a Blu-Ray player that supports outputting at 24fps, and only if the Blu-Ray disc was encoded at 24p.
I haven't really been looking into that feature, I wonder if I'm already getting it because it's fully streamed instead of being a burnt disc. I'll have to do some research.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22196166 Mon, 06 Apr 2009 23:50:12 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22196155 katmeef :
said by IloveToast :

OMG Katmeef...you where my favorite Cogeco guy, don't get sucked into this, I need a favorite to keep hope alive!

Anyways, there are many other legit ways to get 1080P movies, just get an american netflix account...boom done...gee, I wonder why netflix hasn't expanded into canada *cough cough*

LOL :) While I'm trying to stay neutral on the cap issue, I do think Blu-Ray is the way to go for high-end home theaters.

BTW, I ended up getting a zip.ca account last year when I had to start keeping a closer eye on the BW]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22196155 Mon, 06 Apr 2009 23:48:42 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22196144 katmeef :
said by Fireblade :

Way too much effort into something I won't notice. I've compared a 18GB "rip" to it's actual blu-ray release and I barely noticed a difference in image quality. It was only noticeable if I sat inches away from the TV.

Well... I'll admit an 18GB re-encode will probably be pretty close to the original in quality :)

With the new billing system though, could the overage costs for the 18GB (assuming it's over the cap) plus the cost of your media to burn it be more than just buying the Blu-Ray movie?

Another point in support of purchasing the Blu-Ray: if your Blu-ray player and HDTV are capable of displaying 24P 'True Cinema', you'll only be able to enjoy that feature on the Blu-Ray. At least as far as I've been able to determine, this is only supported via HDMI, only when using a Blu-Ray player that supports outputting at 24fps, and only if the Blu-Ray disc was encoded at 24p.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22196144 Mon, 06 Apr 2009 23:46:19 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22196142 IloveToast : OMG Katmeef...you where my favorite Cogeco guy, don't get sucked into this, I need a favorite to keep hope alive!

Anyways, there are many other legit ways to stream/download 1080P movies, just get an american netflix account...boom done...gee, I wonder why netflix hasn't expanded into canada *cough cough* ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22196142 Mon, 06 Apr 2009 23:45:45 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22196078 Fireblade :
said by urbanriot :

Both criminally and civilly legal in Canada? Do you have any links that prove that? Not attempting to start an argument with you, sincerely asking.

PM sent, discussion over.

said by katmeef :

To get the best possible experience from a high end home-theater, it may be beneficial to pay for the movie on a blu-ray.

Way too much effort into something I won't notice. I've compared a 18GB "rip" to it's actual blu-ray release and I barely noticed a difference in image quality. It was only noticeable if I sat inches away from the TV.

EDIT: It's not really about paying, it's the way the media is delivered to my home. If there was a service that had an enormous list of full quality blu-ray content that could be streamed almost instantly to my TV, I would be paying for it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22196078 Mon, 06 Apr 2009 23:33:38 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22196054 katmeef :
said by Fireblade :

I didn't pour money and resources into a home theater so I could experience sub-par image quality and sound.
No matter how over-inflated the re-encoded 'rip' is, it cannot surpass the source material in quality. To get the best possible experience from a high end home-theater, it may be beneficial to pay for the movie on a blu-ray.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22196054 Mon, 06 Apr 2009 23:28:14 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22196005 urbanriot :
said by Fireblade :

It isn't illegal to download media in Canada as long as you aren't re-selling the content. Using Usenet to download games, music and movies is perfectly legal in Canada.
Both criminally and civilly legal in Canada? Do you have any links that prove that? Not attempting to start an argument with you, sincerely asking. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22196005 Mon, 06 Apr 2009 23:17:19 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22195986 Fireblade : Government regulation of ISP's is the best thing that can happen to this country. Look at several countries in Europe, China and Japan.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22195986 Mon, 06 Apr 2009 23:14:41 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22195951 IloveToast :
Ridiculous suggestions that the government should regulate user internet usage with some form of 'meter' demands an exaggerated response.
WTF are you talking about? I don't think you understand this. Regulate greedy corporations like Cogeco so all Canadians can have a fair value internet connection. Possibly with time get some competition going, and promote some "real" capitalism up here.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22195951 Mon, 06 Apr 2009 23:06:57 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22195950 Fireblade :
said by urbanriot :

said by Fireblade :

Renting movies, people still do that?
Yes. Not everyone is breaking the law.

It isn't illegal to download media in Canada as long as you aren't re-selling the content. Using Usenet to download games, music and movies is perfectly legal in Canada. The only thing you're breaking is your wallet, especially in a recession!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22195950 Mon, 06 Apr 2009 23:06:48 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22195891 urbanriot :
said by Fireblade :

Renting movies, people still do that?
Yes. Not everyone is breaking the law. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22195891 Mon, 06 Apr 2009 22:57:12 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22195854 Fireblade :
said by ILoveBread :

If thats the case then why not buy a real blu ray player, switch from cogeco to a sub par but way cheaper DSL connection and then with the money your saving monthly rent real blu ray discs? problem solved.

I have a PS3 and I use that to stream all my 1080p content from my PC to my TV. I can only get 1.5 Mbits max in my area when it comes to DSL, as I've stated several times already and that's quite below sub-par. Renting movies, people still do that? I wouldn't be saving any money there and physically renting movies is a terrible distribution model in our day and age. Plus, when I download I get to keep that movie forever and just throw it on my 4TB storage PC.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22195854 Mon, 06 Apr 2009 22:52:49 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22195836 anon :
No I think you misunderstand me.
Yea, That's what I said. It only says measure in that post. Although it would be good for the government to force all ISP's to offer a "standard" package, that would insure all canadians fair internet access.

To do this though, they would have to pass a bill making internet service a vital service first, then make laws for it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22195836 Mon, 06 Apr 2009 22:49:21 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22195786 anon :
said by Steve :

said by MCICGC :

The purpose is to protect the consumer, as a rigged measuring device is the oldest trick in the book.
It's not really a "device", it's just software, and I don't know how one could ever certify such a thing.

Steve — who has written extensive ISP billing software

California seems to think software that is used to count something can be certified.

»www.sos.ca.gov/elections/elections_vsr.htm]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22195786 Mon, 06 Apr 2009 22:41:45 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22195774 Steve :
said by MCICGC :

The purpose is to protect the consumer, as a rigged measuring device is the oldest trick in the book.
It's not really a "device", it's just software, and I don't know how one could ever certify such a thing.

Steve — who has written extensive ISP billing software
--
Stephen J. Friedl | Unix Wizard | Microsoft Security MVP | Orange County, California USA | my web site]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22195774 Mon, 06 Apr 2009 22:38:59 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22195763 anon :
said by Nogeco :

This is why Cogeco should be Government regulated if they want to go metered billing, just like Hydro, Water, Gas. All regulated by the government, I would not trust cogeco as far as I could throw them to "accurately" measure this, especially when any mistakes will always give Cogeco more money.

No I think you misunderstand me. I do not think that Cogeco's rates, terms, etc. should be subject to regulation at all.

What I think is that perhaps the measurement devices used to calculate the bill should be subject to regulation and inspection. Just like the gas station pumps. Just like the hydro meter, the gas meter, the water meter. Just like the scale at my grocery.

All I'm saying is that measurement regulations and inspections have been with us for quite a while. The purpose is to protect the consumer, as a rigged measuring device is the oldest trick in the book.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22195763 Mon, 06 Apr 2009 22:36:35 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22195609 ILoveBread :
said by Fireblade :

said by exseven :

the 1080p movies i am downloading are 6-12GB per movie, not 30. If your movies are 30GB you need to find better compression or not go for the largest bitrate you can find (not always the best quality)

I didn't pour money and resources into a home theater so I could experience sub-par image quality and sound.

If thats the case then why not buy a real blu ray player, switch from cogeco to a sub par but way cheaper DSL connection and then with the money your saving monthly rent real blu ray discs? problem solved.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22195609 Mon, 06 Apr 2009 22:09:57 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22195602 anon : This is why Cogeco should be Government regulated if they want to go metered billing, just like Hydro, Water, Gas. All regulated by the government, I would not trust cogeco as far as I could throw them to "accurately" measure this, especially when any mistakes will always give Cogeco more money.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22195602 Mon, 06 Apr 2009 22:09:31 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22195574 diskdocx :
said by Shamans :

Methinks we need a thread to show off how much storage capacity each of us have. ;)

We've got 2 main desktops in the house, and a laptop. My wife mainly uses the laptop.

Kids aren't old enough to d/l anything...yet.

The newest machine has a 150 gig Raptor, 2x500gig and 1x 1.5TB internal drives, plus 2 racks for cold swapping.

My older machine currently has only 2x250 gigs.

Also have an external 1.5 TB, 1 TB, and 5x 500gig drives.

Plus at least 1 TB combined of archived and backup drives.

I would guess all told, close to 10TB.

:)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22195574 Mon, 06 Apr 2009 22:04:27 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22195121 anon : My biggest concern with UBB would be the accuracy of Cogeco's measurements. When I was a customer I found they had difficulty billing accurately for flat rate plans, never mind usage based.

Are Cogeco's measuring tools inspected and approved? Does Cogeco (or any ISP for that matter) have to submit to regulation of the measuring devices?

»www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/mc-mc.nsf/···013.html

Thoughts?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22195121 Mon, 06 Apr 2009 20:56:41 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22194979 Fireblade :
said by exseven :

the 1080p movies i am downloading are 6-12GB per movie, not 30. If your movies are 30GB you need to find better compression or not go for the largest bitrate you can find (not always the best quality)

lol, If I downloaded a 6GB 1080p movie 130mins long, the image/sound quality would look/sound atrocious on my TV/sound system. 10GB is usually fine for image quality, but if you want superior image quality and top-notice sound I find 14-18GB is just perfect. I didn't pour money and resources into a home theater so I could experience sub-par image quality and sound. Just because someone at work knows how to complete a technical task, doesn't mean they're tech savvy. I knew people at work that could program just about anything, configure and fix any server, program - whatever. These people weren't tech savvy at all, they just knew how to do their job and nothing more, ask them to do anything out of their job role, even basic computing tasks and they were clueless. Obviously this doesn't implicate all of them, just the majority.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22194979 Mon, 06 Apr 2009 20:27:43 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22194904 x01 :
said by Krispy :

Ok I’ve got my flak jacket on and buttoned up tight but before I dive in please remember Chelle’s comments

Lite – 10GB/mo bitcap - $2.50 per GB over to a maximum of $30
Lite Plus – 20GB/mo bitcap - $2.00 per GB over to a maximum of $30
Standard – 60GB/mo bitcap - $1.50 per GB over to a maximum of $30
Pro – 100GB/mo bitcap - $1.00 per GB over to a maximum of $50
I've just finished reading 19 pages of post in this thread and I am not happy about the new overage cost. I can understand the overage bitcaps, but I feel that the levels are way to low and the costs per GB are way to high and are not very realistic.

I may have nothing to worry about, but I can't say for sure. According to the cogeco website, I've used 0GB for the last 3 months which I know is incorrect. This troubles me, and makes me wonder who accurate cogeco will be when it comes to billing for extra GB

What makes this hard for me to swallow, is the fact that a lot of people are going thru hard times, and are lucky to have a job. Couple this with the fact that cogeco is experiencing high profits. It feels like Cogeco is trying to gouge us.

Now the final point I would like to make is that when it comes to high speed internet, we have no choice. Cogeco has monopoly in the Niagara region. Sure, I could aways switches to bell, or some other form of DSL, but they don't come close to offering the speeds I see with cogeco.

I know over the next couple months I will be researching my options very carefully.

X01]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22194904 Mon, 06 Apr 2009 20:12:23 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22194650 urbanriot :
said by exseven :

the 1080p movies i am downloading are 6-12GB per movie, not 30. If your movies are 30GB you need to find better compression or not go for the largest bitrate you can find (not always the best quality)
Yea, 30 would be uncompressed, hell some blu-ray are less than 25GB raw. Even 15 is a little high for x264's, unless you're getting them with DTS tracks. Typically, on a good release, a 1080p blu-ray movie at about 1.5 hours is around 8~9GB or so. That's still not a lot though, with regular internet usage.

I do download uncompressed at the end of the month though, if I have excess bandwidth. If I'm paying $90/month for 200gb, I'm damn sure going to use every last drop. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22194650 Mon, 06 Apr 2009 19:36:10 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22194528 Shamans : Very few people download high def and high bitrate videos. I think it's easily the most common reason why people go over caps.

Think of the % of people who have high def TVs. And think of the % of people who have access to high def. And think of the % of people who are computer savvy enough to put this all together.

But yes, 60 GB is laughable. 120 GB is a little tight. 200 GB is comfortable. And I can easily go over 400 GB if they allowed it. I guess that's why we have blue ray discs...but I'm el cheapo....not that my internet plan is any cheaper really.

If you download less than 60 GB, I'm not sure if you can be considered tech savvy or morally misaligned. ;)

Also, if you have a few family members, downloading low bitrate videos can easily get you over the 60 GB cap too.

Methinks we need a thread to show off how much storage capacity each of us have. ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22194528 Mon, 06 Apr 2009 19:15:29 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22194456 exseven : i do about the same as urbanriot, however spread across a month not the first week. I would consider myself a tech savvy under 35 as well, the majority of my friends (and people at work that i know) do not go over the 60GB cap and we are all tech savvy in my department

the 1080p movies i am downloading are 6-12GB per movie, not 30. If your movies are 30GB you need to find better compression or not go for the largest bitrate you can find (not always the best quality)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22194456 Mon, 06 Apr 2009 19:03:42 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22194384 urbanriot : While I believe many people don't have usage models that bring them anywhere near the cap, it's April 6th and I've downloaded a few 720p shows (1GB each), 3 HD movies (1080p), some apps for work, regular browsing, youtube, audio streaming and a few .mp3 albums and I'm already at 42GB for this month. I would expect this to be typical usage for a computer savvy adult 35 years or less of age. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22194384 Mon, 06 Apr 2009 18:52:00 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22194138 Fireblade :
said by exseven :

I as well do not exceed the cap, and thats with abnormal usage (720p & 1080p movies), game demos, iTunes downloads, etc etc.
So you watch 1-2 1080p movies a month? 3 to 4 1080p movies and you've blown through Cogeco's cap. Not including 720p movies, game demos, music, etc, etc. With all of the above you're looking at 150GB of bandwidth at the minimum to moderately enjoy yourself. 1080p movies range from 10-30GB per movie based on quality, I usually go for the 15 range because the ones around 10GB are sometimes grainy with mediocre image quality. Cogeco doesn't even give us a chance to download "all the new movies in the highest definition".]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22194138 Mon, 06 Apr 2009 18:13:28 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22193786 mattei : I think his aim was to say exactly what he said: a 60 GB account transfer limit does not, in his case, impact his family.

said by exseven :

I as well do not exceed the cap, and thats with abnormal usage (720p & 1080p movies), game demos, iTunes downloads, etc etc.
Abnormal? No, your usage pattern is similar to that of many law-abiding Canadian teens. How many kids do you have utilizing HSI in your Revenue Generating Unit?

said by exseven :

This change will not affect me since i dont feel the need to download every single movie that comes out in the highest definition - or every new linux distro dvd (since i know how to update) ;)
Another inflammatory remark aimed at disgruntled customers. Smiley or no, I'm beginning to wonder what your intent in this thread is.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22193786 Mon, 06 Apr 2009 17:17:44 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22193750 mattei :
said by John and Pat :

...file downloads such as tech data for my work, and I am a beta tester required to download large files periodically.
Are you aware that, should you choose Cogeco as your HSI provider, some of the actions you describe and intend to continue are prohibited by the AUP?
said by December 18, 2008 AUP :

In the case of a residential Customer, the Residential Services are provided to the Customer as a residential user, for personal, residential, non-business and non-professional use. This means that the Customer shall not use the Services for any mercantile activities, including, without limiting the generality of the foregoing, for the operation of a home office, business, sales, telecommuting, telemarketing (including without limitation charitable or political solicitation or polling), or any other activity that would contravene or be inconsistent with normal residential usage patterns.
COGECO does not support LAN connection service, telecommuting and VPN service on High Speed Residential Internet Services. The connection of Internet servers at Customer residential premises to the COGECO Network is prohibited. The residential Customer may not run programs or servers which provide network service to others. Examples of prohibited programs include, but are not limited to mail, http, ftp, irc, dhcp servers, and multi-user interactive forums.
We're discussing an enforced account transfer limit and subsequent overage charges but AUP restrictions might be of greater concern in your case. After you're done eliminating your prohibited activities and arranging fallback services for unsupported operations vulnerable to arbitrary administrative action, you might be satisfied with a cheaper tier.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22193750 Mon, 06 Apr 2009 17:11:22 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22192799 diskdocx : Price wars, where in large companies can subsidize 'loss leader' markets on the backs of customers in areas without competition, are how the oligopolies always drive out the independents.

Of course, there are rarely price wars between the oligopolies - so it is little surprise that Bell and Videotron are not 'competition'.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22192799 Mon, 06 Apr 2009 14:33:44 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22192705 Asawulf :
said by CanadianIron :

said by Asawulf :

Videotron and Bell have been in a long war so of course that plays a big role too; as they drop their prices, the other ISPs lower theirs too since Bell is almost everywhere...

Sounds like Cogeco is a follower and not a leader. Thats a shame.

Cogeco isn't at war with those companies, no shame needed ;)

I do know we are "leading" a small price war with some other companies in certain areas; and believe me, it's those companies who cannot follow...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22192705 Mon, 06 Apr 2009 14:18:05 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22192255 CanadianIron :
said by Asawulf :

Videotron and Bell have been in a long war so of course that plays a big role too; as they drop their prices, the other ISPs lower theirs too since Bell is almost everywhere...

Sounds like Cogeco is a follower and not a leader. Thats a shame.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22192255 Mon, 06 Apr 2009 13:08:53 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22192202 Asawulf : Userbase and provincial economy also play a role in this; on average the salaries (and almost everything) are lower in Qc than in Ontario, and Cogeco is more rural in Qc than in On so it might be logical in that sense too :)

Videotron and Bell have been in a long war so of course that plays a big role too; as they drop their prices, the other ISPs lower theirs too since Bell is almost everywhere...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22192202 Mon, 06 Apr 2009 13:00:37 EDT Re: Usage Billing http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,22192132