PX Eliezer
Premium
join:2008-08-09
New Jersey
 ·Optimum Voice
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·voip.ms
·Callcentric
| You can plotz with POTS.
I have a Verizon POTS landline at my business. We almost never make outgoing calls on it, because we use our Voip lines for outgoing. Yet every month Verizon says that we have made hundreds of local calls, incurring extra charges of about $ 25 for "message units", on top of all their other charges. (A message unit roughly equates to about 5 minutes of local calling, and is about 8 cents).
Unlike a Voip provider, Verizon does NOT itemize these calls. They just give us a total. So we are totally at their mercy.
I asked Verizon if they could just supply me with a few days of itemized call records so I could see what these calls were.
This is their response:
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Thank you for contacting the Verizon eBIZ Center where we never stop working for you. My name is XXXXX, and I will be handling your request today.
I have received your email regarding local call detail. It is my pleasure to assist you with this matter.
Unfortunately, local call detail service is not yet available in your area.
Verizon continues to evaluate our product offerings based on feedback from our valuable customers as well as trends in the marketplace. We hope to be able to offer this service to you in the near future.
If the request is for legal reasons, you must obtain a subpoena in order to acquire a list of all your outgoing calls. For further information regarding this matter, you may contact Verizon Headquarters.....
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So the big Verizon company can't do what a lot of you guys can do in your basements: get a list of your calls.
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Side issue:
One thing that I do wonder about is this. I use my Verizon number as the outbound caller ID shown on my Voip lines. As those outbound Voip calls, displaying my Verizon number, travel over Verizon switches, might Verizon be picking them up and charging me message units for them?
That may sound bizarre but it's the only thing that I can think of....
Thanks for any thoughts. |
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me1212
join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO
2 edits | I Have never heard of that happening, with the POTS being charged for the VoIP calls.. Also, do you mind if I ask y you still have a POTS line? If you need ur POTS # you should be able to port it over. |
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nitzan
Premium,VIP
join:2008-02-27
·ViaTalk
 ·Comcast
1 edit | reply to PX Eliezer
said by PX Eliezer  :As those outbound Voip calls, displaying my Verizon number, travel over Verizon switches, might Verizon be picking them up and charging me message units for them? That may sound bizarre but it's the only thing that I can think of.... This can and DOES happen.
OK, let me expand. Basically what is most likely happening is your calls are being delivered to the destination over the PSTN. The called party then thinks it's Verizon doing the calling, and slaps Verizon with a bill for reciprocal compensation even though they shouldn't. Verizon has no clue and bills you for these calls.
In other words- you might want to use a different outgoing Caller ID.  |
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PX Eliezer
Premium
join:2008-08-09
New Jersey
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| reply to me1212
said by me1212 : Also, do you mind if I ask y you still have a POTS line? If you need ur POTS # you should be able to port it over. Because my business is very, very dependent on the incoming phone calls we receive. My phone number has been around for 20 years, it's published all over the place. I can't take any risk at all in something happening to it, and/or in having bad service (or routing table problems) after a port.
Thus, to port the number, requires an enormous level of trust.
There's one Voip provider that I probably do trust to that extent, but they don't offer outbound CNAM. And without outbound CNAM, when we call clients, my call would show up as "Private" or "Unknown" on their CID screens. Folks won't pick up those calls. Heck, my own secretary won't answer such calls when I call her at home.
That's why I keep the one POTS line. |
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PX Eliezer
Premium
join:2008-08-09
New Jersey
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| reply to nitzan
said by nitzan :said by PX Eliezer :As those outbound Voip calls, displaying my Verizon number, travel over Verizon switches, might Verizon be picking them up and charging me message units for them? That may sound bizarre but it's the only thing that I can think of.... This can and DOES happen. Is there any benefit for using Future/Nine in this regard, or would all providers be subject to the same issue? |
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me1212
join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO | reply to PX Eliezer
Ok, makes sense. Ya do what ya have to to keep afloat especially in today's market. |
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Fisamo
Premium
join:2004-02-20
Apex, NC
·AT&T CallVantage
·VOIPo
| reply to PX Eliezer
Businesses get multiple phone numbers all the time. You might consider transmitting a different CID number, provided you can get the outbound NAME to match the name sent from/with your business line.
For example, my daughter's pediatrician's number is 919-468-xxxx, but when they call us, we see 919-852-xxxx. Their name does show up with the 852 number, but the number that they have on all their literature is the 919-468 number. |
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PX Eliezer
Premium
join:2008-08-09
New Jersey
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| Which is a good idea that I'll consider. Thanks.
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My original point, which I find pretty unfortunate, is that Verizon expects me to pay for hundreds of calls (by means of "message unit" charges) while being unable or unwilling to tell me what the calls are.
Yes, maybe in this particular case, we have figured out the explanation. And maybe it was inadvertently caused by my own actions.
But a few years ago, even before I ever started using Voip, Verizon just expected me to just take their word for all these local calls, with no itemization.
Voip providers should be proud that they can provide itemized call records (in real time, too!) when a big outfit like Verizon can't or won't.
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Fisamo
Premium
join:2004-02-20
Apex, NC
·AT&T CallVantage
·VOIPo
| Oh, you know it's the latter--won't. After all, were you to have a subpoena to throw at them, they'd pull up your list of local calls. What is it they're called on Law and Order, LUDs? (Line Usage Details) |
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VoIPdevotee
@clearrate.com
 from:
n1zuk
| reply to PX Eliezer
I will just chime in here and make what to me is an obvious suggestion: Send a complaint to your state's Public Utilities Commission. Tell them you feel that you are being charged for calls that are not actually being made from your line and that Verizon is stonewalling you in your efforts to find out if the calls are legitimate.
Please don't just assume that your VoIP calls are being billed to your POTS service. Even if that is the case, it should not happen and the PUC may well order Verizon to knock it off - they have sufficient information to know which calls are actually being made from your physical POTS line. And beware that if your line happens to be the first pair in a cable, it may well be that phone guys are using your line to make calls (ever pick up a phone and hear someone else talking? Do your customers ever complain of getting busy signals when there is no one on the line?) or it's even possible that your line runs through a basement of another building (especially if you are in a commercial district) and someone there is tapping into it.
I'll tell you a little story to illustrate that point: Many years ago I knew a guy who worked at a long-defunct radio station in a small town, and he told me this tale: The radio station studio and offices happened to be in rented space in the basement of a medical clinic building that was right behind a hospital. For lord only know what reason, GTE had put the switching equipment for the hospital in the basement of that same building - along with a test extension for the hospital PBX conveniently hanging on the wall - in a room that was also used as a sales office for the radio station. This was in the days before the commercial Internet when computer bulletin board systems were just taking off, and the station manager liked to BBS at night, but there were no local BBS's in that town. But somehow he figured out that the hospital had a foreign exchange line to a nearby larger city, so at night he'd plug into their line, program the computer to dial the code for the FX line and then the number, and log into his favorite BBS. Probably fortunately for the hospital, the radio station didn't last all that long (owner got pinched in some kind of swindle and just up and disappeared, leaving employees and creditors alike in the lurch, not to mention probably violating a bunch of FCC regulations about just taking a station off the air without notice) but after I heard that story I always wondered what kind of charges the hospital was getting for that FX line. Point was, although in this case the hospital actually did own the building, their lines passed through a space they did not directly control (and thus was susceptible to taps), and I have read in other forums that in larger cities there are sometimes pairs that are accessible in many basements of older buildings before they hit the phone company.
In most states it costs nothing to file an informal complaint with the state PUC (be careful about taking it to the level of a formal complaint, because in some states if you are an incorporated business you must have an attorney file the complaint - your PUC will be able to tell you what the rules are in your state). Fraudulent billing is something that PUC's usually tend to take rather seriously, so the phone company is not as likely to blow off your PUC as they did you (and you probably spoke to a low-level employee who just wanted to get you off the line so she could meet her hourly call quota). Also remember that phone company employees can and do tell some pretty big whopper fibs to get customers off the line, so don't believe everything they tell you. They don't care, they don't have to - they're the phone company - but the PUC can usually make them care, at least a little bit. |
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PX Eliezer
Premium
join:2008-08-09
New Jersey
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| It's an excellent suggestion. Thanks for the long post!
I think first I'll try using a different CID for my Voip and see if the Verizon bills go down.
As you know, the Catch-22 is that without call detail records, I just don't have proof.
One thing I'd be concerned about is if Verizon said that it was improper on MY part for me to use a Verizon supplied number as the CID for outgoing Voip calls.
Do you think they would have a point, or not? |
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RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Longmont, CO
| reply to PX Eliezer
said by PX Eliezer :There's one Voip provider that I probably do trust to that extent, but they don't offer outbound CNAM. That is incorrect. Nuvio does offer outbound CNAM.  Just a thought, do you have any variation of call forwarding invoked on your POTS line? If so, that would be a source of the message units. |
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PX Eliezer
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New Jersey
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1 edit | said by RockyBB :Just a thought, do you have any variation of call forwarding invoked on your POTS line? If so, that would be a source of the message units. I do not use call forwarding as most sensible people would understand it.
BUT!
Verizon does say that when a message is directed to your own Verizon VoiceMail, it's a call forward situation.
So that probably does account for some of it!!
Damm Verizon!
So we pay for their VoiceMail three ways:
1) Hefty fee for Verizon VoiceMail.
2) Separate fee for "Call Forwarding: Busy/NoAnswer", to get the calls to the VoiceMail.
3) Message units for those calls sent to VoiceMail.
That's a 3-way that's no fun.    |
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RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Longmont, CO
| said by PX Eliezer :BUT! A victim of the ol' But Monkey! Certainly this is a worth a call to your state's telecom regulators (public utility commission, or public service commission) to voice a complaint. Perhaps with enough similar complaints Verizon can be forced to bundle the forwarding in with the voice mail service. Not likely though, as that would be anti-competitive. Imagine if you wanted to use an independent voice mail service bureau. If you had to pay for call forwarding (and message units) to use the independent company, but not have to pay for forwarding (and message units) to use Verizon voice mail, then you would find the independent provider to be at a competitive disadvantage.
That is not an issue in Colorado, which is a flat rate state (no message units for local calls), where a call forwarding USOC is on every account with voice mail, but the local minutes don't create a variable charge either to Qwest's voice messaging or to local independent providers. Got skis? |
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N9MD
Premium
join:2005-10-08
Wayne, NJ
·VOIPo
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| reply to VoIPdevotee
said by VoIPdevotee :
...someone there is tapping into it. Great story, VOIPdevotee!
Reminds me of my senior college year (1963-64). A few guys had rented a third floor 6-room flat in a house located in the downtown area of a major NJ city. The 1st and 2nd floors held the offices of the US Department of Agriculture --- making sense since NJ is the Garden State ---- and one of the several institutions within the University was an agricultural college. One of our nefarious roomies spliced into the Fed's phone system ... and for one year made all of his calls to friends and family throughout the USA for free. |
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nycityny
Premium
join:2005-08-09
New York, NY
·VoicePulse
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| reply to PX Eliezer
said by PX Eliezer :So we pay for their VoiceMail three ways: 1) Hefty fee for Verizon VoiceMail. 2) Separate fee for "Call Forwarding: Busy/NoAnswer", to get the calls to the VoiceMail. 3) Message units for those calls sent to VoiceMail. I imagine there also is a fourth way - you probably pay message units when you dial into your voicemail account to listen to the messages. |
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ropeguru
Premium
join:2001-01-25
Bridgeport, WV
clubs:
·VOIPo
| reply to PX Eliezer
said by PX Eliezer :Verizon does say that when a message is directed to your own Verizon VoiceMail, it's a call forward situation. So that probably does account for some of it!! Damm Verizon! So we pay for their VoiceMail three ways: 1) Hefty fee for Verizon VoiceMail. 2) Separate fee for "Call Forwarding: Busy/NoAnswer", to get the calls to the VoiceMail. 3) Message units for those calls sent to VoiceMail. That's a 3-way that's no fun. Have you thought about putting together a small asterisk system just to be a voicemail system?? Ditch their voicemail all together. A small system on a good UPS could be kept up for hours during a power outage. |
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RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Longmont, CO
| said by ropeguru :Have you thought about putting together a small asterisk system just to be a voicemail system?? Ditch their voicemail all together. Methinks not a good solution for this. Asterisk system on a single POTS line would be nothing more than a big answering machine. When the POTS line is in use (on a call or recording a message) a concurrent inbound call attempt would get a busy signal and have no path to reach the answering machine. That's the value of network voice mail -- no worries about paths into the end user location. |
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burris
Premium
join:2000-08-22
Miami, FL
·VOIPo
 ·AT&T Southeast
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| reply to N9MD
said by N9MD :said by VoIPdevotee :
...someone there is tapping into it. Great story, VOIPdevotee! Reminds me of my senior college year (1963-64). A few guys had rented a third floor 6-room flat in a house located in the downtown area of a major NJ city. The 1st and 2nd floors held the offices of the US Department of Agriculture --- making sense since NJ is the Garden State ---- and one of the several institutions within the University was an agricultural college. One of our nefarious roomies spliced into the Fed's phone system ... and for one year made all of his calls to friends and family throughout the USA for free. SURE---and now we are paying for it. |
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PX Eliezer
Premium
join:2008-08-09
New Jersey
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| reply to nycityny
said by nycityny :said by PX Eliezer :So we pay for their VoiceMail three ways.... I imagine there also is a fourth way - you probably pay message units when you dial into your voicemail account to listen to the messages. Darn!
Yup. |
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