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fcisler
Premium
join:2004-06-14
Riverhead, NY
| Ouch
The options of consumer internet in Canada seems horrible.
According to this, there's a total of 46 ISP's serving Ontario. Chatham apparently has 20 ISP's serving it. I can't imagine that the 20 ISP's cover 100%, but here's a breakdown:
18 DSL
2 cable
1 Sat/Wireless
(one company apparently provides cable and DSL, Altima.net)
Are ALL of those DSL companies resellers? Do any of them own their own copper or rent a dry loop and use their own DSLAM equipment? Do the two cable companies throttle/have caps?
Keeping in mind I've only been to Canada twice and know almost nothing of it - your internet options seem to suck. Horribly. I feel sorry you have to put up with that ()#$%)@! | |
st7860
join:2004-05-13
San Francisco, CA
| said by fcisler  :The options of consumer internet in Canada seems horrible. According to this, there's a total of 46 ISP's serving Ontario. Chatham apparently has 20 ISP's serving it. I can't imagine that the 20 ISP's cover 100%, but here's a breakdown: 18 DSL 2 cable 1 Sat/Wireless (one company apparently provides cable and DSL, Altima.net) Are ALL of those DSL companies resellers? Do any of them own their own copper or rent a dry loop and use their own DSLAM equipment? Do the two cable companies throttle/have caps? Keeping in mind I've only been to Canada twice and know almost nothing of it - your internet options seem to suck. Horribly. I feel sorry you have to put up with that ()#$%)@! what the media doesn't tell you is that those companies whining about throttling are not using their own networks. they basically buy services from Bell Canada and resell them, providing only their own mail/news servers and miscellaneous backhaul here and there.
They are, in almost all cases NOT renting dry loops from Bell Canada, and in almost all cases NOT colocating any of their own DSLAMS with Bell Canada.
So then since they're basically just reselling white label ADSL with a few support services added, they are obviously subject to the host companies regulations and irritations, such as throttling and so on. | |
ragingwolf
join:2003-04-22
Nepean, ON
| said by st7860 :what the media doesn't tell you is that those companies whining about throttling are not using their own networks. they basically buy services from Bell Canada and resell them, providing only their own mail/news servers and miscellaneous backhaul here and there. They are, in almost all cases NOT renting dry loops from Bell Canada, and in almost all cases NOT colocating any of their own DSLAMS with Bell Canada. So then since they're basically just reselling white label ADSL with a few support services added, they are obviously subject to the host companies regulations and irritations, such as throttling and so on. Obviously, you aren't familiar enough with Canadian internet. These so-called "resellers" are far from a white label'd Bell internet. You people in the US always seem to fly off the handle thinking you know it all, when you are absolutely clueless about the situation. Do some research before you post and maybe you'll see why Canadians are so infuriated about the issue.
The only portion of Bell network that these companies rent (at regulated prices I might add) is the last mile, the copper to your house and the dslam is connects too. This is due to one simple fact, our government mandated that Bell do this, so as to provoke at least some competition because otherwise, we'd probably be in an even worse situation.
They also pay Bell more money for links with dedicated bandwidth to have that traffic transported to their central routers which turns it into actual internet traffic. At any point in Bell network, all the traffic is, is a simply PPPoE stream of data, which can technically be anything from phone service, internet, video on demand, etc. | |
st7860
join:2004-05-13
San Francisco, CA
2 edits | said by ragingwolf :said by st7860 :what the media doesn't tell you is that those companies whining about throttling are not using their own networks. they basically buy services from Bell Canada and resell them, providing only their own mail/news servers and miscellaneous backhaul here and there. They are, in almost all cases NOT renting dry loops from Bell Canada, and in almost all cases NOT colocating any of their own DSLAMS with Bell Canada. So then since they're basically just reselling white label ADSL with a few support services added, they are obviously subject to the host companies regulations and irritations, such as throttling and so on. Obviously, you aren't familiar enough with Canadian internet. These so-called "resellers" are far from a white label'd Bell internet. You people in the US always seem to fly off the handle thinking you know it all, when you are absolutely clueless about the situation. Do some research before you post and maybe you'll see why Canadians are so infuriated about the issue. The only portion of Bell network that these companies rent (at regulated prices I might add) is the last mile, the copper to your house and the dslam is connects too. This is due to one simple fact, our government mandated that Bell do this, so as to provoke at least some competition because otherwise, we'd probably be in an even worse situation. They also pay Bell more money for links with dedicated bandwidth to have that traffic transported to their central routers which turns it into actual internet traffic. At any point in Bell network, all the traffic is, is a simply PPPoE stream of data, which can technically be anything from phone service, internet, video on demand, etc. the government didn't mandate anything, except that bell provide various levels of resale, such as the white label ADSL services that companies in Ontario normally use.
Companies do have the option of locating equipmen inside a Bell CANADA central office to avoid any throttling, but most choose not to do so.
for over 7 years companies in Canada have been able to provide their own ADSL instead of white label bell ADSL, but most choose not to do so because it is expensive.
same thing applies with local phone service too. companies in Canada have been able to do so for over 7 years, but, most choose not to do so, instead opting for white label bell telephone service. | |
Bellus_1
@cia.com
| reply to ragingwolf
Actually, they only pay for dedicated bandwidth between the Bell aggregation PoP of their choice and their routers, so from a CO in Toronto to 151 Front in TSI's case. At $1700 per Gig-e circuit, that's what you get: increments of 1Gbps to link the Bell network to your reseller PoP where you host everything but the transport, aggregation, distribution and access networks, ie. internet transit, mail, DNS and webhosting.
You can't have a dedicated capacity provisioned in the GAS service because the end-user endpoints are so dynamic. There are dedicated ADSL services and Lan extensions, but they cost more because each circuit is provisioned end-to-end with a defined capacity up to the exchange point between Bell and the ISP, who then rents the $1700/month Gig-E circuits to haul it to their PoP. | |
R0CKY
TSI Rocky
Premium,VIP
join:2005-05-19
Chatham, ON
1 edit | reply to st7860
said by st7860 :said by fcisler :The options of consumer internet in Canada seems horrible. According to this, there's a total of 46 ISP's serving Ontario. Chatham apparently has 20 ISP's serving it. I can't imagine that the 20 ISP's cover 100%, but here's a breakdown: 18 DSL 2 cable 1 Sat/Wireless (one company apparently provides cable and DSL, Altima.net) Are ALL of those DSL companies resellers? Do any of them own their own copper or rent a dry loop and use their own DSLAM equipment? Do the two cable companies throttle/have caps? Keeping in mind I've only been to Canada twice and know almost nothing of it - your internet options seem to suck. Horribly. I feel sorry you have to put up with that ()#$%)@! what the media doesn't tell you is that those companies whining about throttling are not using their own networks. they basically buy services from Bell Canada and resell them, providing only their own mail/news servers and miscellaneous backhaul here and there. They are, in almost all cases NOT renting dry loops from Bell Canada, and in almost all cases NOT colocating any of their own DSLAMS with Bell Canada. So then since they're basically just reselling white label ADSL with a few support services added, they are obviously subject to the host companies regulations and irritations, such as throttling and so on. Excuse me but you are passing judgement with only a portion of what you think is real. You can't strip TekSavvy's portion/responsibility and deliver internet access... you should try it one day. For proof of... When we test an account to see if it's getting to the DSLAM, or first hop, we do a "test@test" attempt. If this authenticates, this means the first hop is functional, but you can't surf with this as it has yet to pick up a routable world IP. Bell would have to then pass this account off to its own servers/routers (through Sympatico/Bell Internet), which it can't, as the client is not theirs. We then test to see if the individual is able to pick up a TSI IP, which is where it gets blatantly obvious that Bell is no longer involved.... If you get no IP you then know the problem is still within Bell's control, but if you pick up a routable IP, that means it has gotten to us (TSI) and is ready for the internet portion/delivery.
In other words, if we were a reseller, the IPs and Internet routing would all be Bell's, but in our case, we paid Bell, as a preferred (and only in this case) vendor to backhaul the various locations (in Ontario/Quebec) to Toronto, where their responsibility ends. Bell has "ZERO" to do with the internet portion... Did I say "zero" here, because I think I just did!
We do "ALL" the internet routing, "ALL" the IP routing, "ALL" the Internet authentication, "ALL" the internet technical support (only time bell gets involved is when they messed up the delivery to us or when there's a copper problem, related to phone service... before anyone complains about this part, I do realise I'm making this sound like it's a small segment, but I'm not as it's not, but we're paying the better of three quarter million per month to make sure things are ok...).
Ohh... did I say they have "zero" responsibility passed 151 Front Street in Toronto, where we co-locate with them, to aggregate all the DSL? So, we "DO" collocate with them, it's just a different configuration is all.... We had the choice to either co-locate in the Central Offices or co-locate with Bell in Toronto and have the various locations back-hauled to there, which was, in the end, what we chose! We had considered moving away from the aggregation in Toronto, but Bell gave us new tiers to make it worth staying through their one spot in Toronto. So, in the end, Bell created this version of collocation because it gave them more profits (which in turn gave us more flexibility... win-win!... gave us much more Transit flexibility and multi-homing capabilities).
We were, as a result, able to get better transit rates, which we passed on to our clients by virtue of increased caps and plans. We were also able to add such things as MLPPP and co-locations services and even allow some flexibilities for routing through TORIX.... All in all... these are all advantages and perks that are being threatened right now because of greed and ignorance!
....did I mention Bell has "ZERO" rights/responsibility past the 6th floor in 151 Front? Because they do absolutely nothing passed that point, which is a very important part to actually making Internet functional? I almost feel as though I'm repeating myself right now, but I hear repeating a couple times or more on TV/Radio/etc helps having it stick in people's minds.................
Rocky
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TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.
Authorized TSI employee ( »TekSavvy FAQ »Official support in the forum )
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st7860
join:2004-05-13
San Francisco, CA
2 edits | reply to fcisler
its always interesting how the principals(and/or management) of an ADSL company spin it,
but the fact of the matter, in Canada, most ADSL companies buy what is in essence, white label adsl and provide bits and pieces of their own service, such as servers, support, and transit here and there.
any company in canada can choose to colocate adsl equipment in a Bell Canada office, and then pay for transit to their own offices, and not be subject to any throttling. But if they choose to only buy bits and pieces of what is in essence wholesaled white label ADSL, obviously they are subject to any throttling policies.
most companies choose not to colocate their own adsl equipment because it just costs too much.
for the simple people out there, a company can choose to:
a) pay for transit from a central point at bell to their office. which most companies do, which is cheaper, but then it means they are subject to throttling.
or
b) put adsl dslams(modems) into each bell central office in a city in toronto. and then pay for transit from each central office to their own office. this costs a ton of money, but then they aren't subject to any policies. | |
R0CKY
TSI Rocky
Premium,VIP
join:2005-05-19
Chatham, ON
| said by st7860 :its always interesting how the principals(and/or management) of an ADSL company spin it, but the fact of the matter, in Canada, most ADSL companies buy what is in essence, white label adsl and provide bits and piece of their own service, such as servers, support, and transit here and there. any company in canada can choose to colocate adsl equipment in a Bell Canada office, and then pay for transit to their own offices, and not be subject to any throttling. But if they choose to only buy bits and pieces of what is in essence wholesaled white label ADSL, obviously they are subject to any throttling policies. most companies choose not to colocate their own adsl equipment because it just costs too much. It's always funny how some don't like to hear anything other then their own thoughts!
This is false. There's absolutely no way to avoid Bell by collocating right now. Even if you place equipment in their Central Office, you still have to go through them for every single repeater as equipment, other than what Bell put in there, isn't doable.
Bell has strategically placed themselves in a position to not be circumvented. This is the beauty of a monopolistic environment. Wouldn't you like playing cards with someone, knowing they have a second deck they can chose from to "absolutely" ensure they win every time?
PS - we've already covered this in the past you and I... Find it funny that it didn't stick the first time.
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TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.
Authorized TSI employee ( »TekSavvy FAQ »Official support in the forum )
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st7860
join:2004-05-13
San Francisco, CA
1 edit | reply to fcisler
you don't have to go through bell throttling if you put in your own dslam at the bell central office. you could then pay for a fibre cable from that office, to a nearby office of your own choosing and then not be subject to throttling. it just costs more money to do it that way. | |
R0CKY
TSI Rocky
Premium,VIP
join:2005-05-19
Chatham, ON
4 edits | said by st7860 :you don't have to go through bell throttling if you put in your own dslam at the bell central office. you could then pay for a fibre cable from that office, to a nearby office of your own choosing and then not be subject to throttling. it just costs more money to do it that way. Ok, so lets look at the repeaters, who outnumber, in multiples, the COs... what then? Even if we are in all the available COs, we land up only being able to service about 1/3 our total (or potentially available) clients...
In the end, we still have to rent the copper from Bell....
Edit: almost forgot to mention the conditions to be in the Central Offices... For instance, you require $25M CGL insurance to go in there in the first place. As an ISP, just gettin $10M required major massaging. (Before you ask... no... it wasn't a price thing, it was an actual "can't give it to you" thing)...
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TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.
Authorized TSI employee ( »TekSavvy FAQ »Official support in the forum )
| |
st7860
join:2004-05-13
San Francisco, CA | reply to fcisler
if its not really white label, then why, if a customer subscribes to adsl from two different companies, does it work if they switch user ids and passwords and it 'works'? | |
R0CKY
TSI Rocky
Premium,VIP
join:2005-05-19
Chatham, ON
| said by st7860 :if its not really white label, then why, if a customer subscribes to adsl from two different companies, does it work if they switch user ids and passwords and it 'works'? No... The Line card has to be enabled, which is done once TekSavvy requests it to be... This allows the tunnel to be opened for network/credentials requests...
The only reason changing logins works once a line card has been enabled is because the Central office has the database of accepted realm names, where it passes it on to wherever Bell agreed/contracted to. In order to do this you must have a collocated location which accepts and aggregates L2TP traffic. You can't just own a login per say and enable internet access as a wholesaler of GAS services.
By your definition Sympatico would be a reseller/white label too, which it isn't, as they have equipment they aggregate to also, in a variety of locations, even 151 Front Street I'm sure (guessing).
We all have to share the same backbone to back-haul through (as Bell is the incumbent in Ontario/Quebec for phone copper in the ground), so if you treat it the same as your typical network, for discussion-sake, we're talking VLANs essentially. One VLAN belongs to company X, the next VLAN belongs to company Y, etc, for delivering the login request... not the internet access!
Now... to take what you just said.... You've just identified something that is pretty major, as TekSavvy has purchased the rights to activate the Line Card in the Central office (which allows this user ID through for Gateway Access Service delivery requests). From there, if no one picks up the login or allows the request through to Toronto (or wherever it's aggregated to), there is no DSL. One needs the other to exist.... as a result this isn't a relabeling/white-label/resold anything.
Now... if you're talking about our Local Phone or Long Distance in Ontario/Quebec however.... Those are resold/relabeling/white-label things!
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TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.
Authorized TSI employee ( »TekSavvy FAQ »Official support in the forum )
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TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
| reply to st7860
said by st7860 :if its not really white label, then why, if a customer subscribes to adsl from two different companies, does it work if they switch user ids and passwords and it 'works'? Well, when I push the big red button and only our customers go offline, how do you explain that?
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TSI Marc - TekSavvy Solutions Inc. | |
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