  nonameyet I Make Them Ring..Ring Premium join:2000-12-19 Sellersville, PA
·Verizon FIOS
·Verizon Online DSL
| Oil Heat vs Electric?
Ok, So, we get our new Budget cost for the month, it was $90 a month, new price $186 a month 
My house is 27 years old, still on the original heater, I've had it tuned up a few times.
House is 2200 square ft, Oil Heat/Hot Air. Ducts are all in place.
Should I invest in a New more fuel (oil) effienct heater or switch to Electic? |
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  jack b Big House Premium,MVM join:2000-09-08 Up the River clubs:
·Optimum Online
·Verizon FIOS
| To make any comparison, you need to figure out the cost per BTU, regardless of the fuel used. A new oil-fired unit would likely provide a significant cost savings as a result of high efficiency technologies used in today's equipment. With the current fuel costs, the payback is pretty quick. Electric may actually be competitive, depending on the rate your utility charges for heating customers. If that's the case, then look into a heat pump. -- ~Help Find a Cure for Cancer~ ~Proud Member of Team Discovery ~ |
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  Kringle Dr.D Premium join:2004-02-27 Pierrefonds, QC
·Bell Sympatico
edit: September 5th, @02:26PM
| reply to nonameyet The way I see it, that $2,200 is not very expensive. For a smaller house my oil heating was over $4k last season so I added a heat pump! With the electricity rates here, the system will pay for itself (electronic air cleaner, installation, et al.) in less than 2 years. Only when it's too cold outside does my oil heat take over, drastically decreasing my oil consumption. You might want to do your own calculations since you already have the ductwork in place like I did.
EDIT: An explanation from my electric company:
said by »www.hydroquebec.com/residential/···_dt.html :Hydro-Québecs dual-energy concept involves using electricity as the principal energy source and a fossil fuel (oil, natural gas) as an auxiliary source. Hydro-Québecs dual-energy concept is particularly suited to the conditions described below. Electricity is used for most of the heating season (i.e. outside temperatures above or equal to -12°C or -15°C, depending on the region) and the auxiliary source takes over when temperatures are very cold (below-12°C, 10.4°F or -15°C, 5°F). The switch from electricity to the auxiliary source is done automatically by an automatic switching device within the heating system that obeys signals received from a temperature sensor placed outside the home. (Note that the switch-over temperature is generally higher when the electrical component of the system consists of a heat pump). The main dual-energy combinations are: * a heat pump with a fuel furnace, * an integrated dual-energy furnace (an electrical and a fuel component); Dual-energy offers a more advantageous differential rateWith dual-energy, customers can better control their energy consumption because: * Fuel is used at temperatures when it is most effective; * customers who choose a dual-energy system conforming to Hydro-Québec standards can take advantage of the DT rate, which enables appreciable savings on their overall energy bill. (This rate is based on a differentiated temperature-based structure.) Little electricity is used during the few weeks of intense cold each year, when the home is heated by fossil fuel. A signal light indicates high-rate periods, so customers can choose to delay using certain electrical appliances and thereby achieve additional savings. |
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  cowboyro
join:2000-10-11 Bridgeport, CT
·Comcast
·Optimum Voice
| reply to nonameyet Simple math: Assume HSPF of only 6, average electricity price of $0.25/kWh You get 3412BTU/kW of electric heating so factoring in the gain of the heat pump you get 82,000BTU for $1 Oil gives you ~130,000BTU/gal, a good oil furnace has an efficiency of ~85%, so you get 110,500 BTU/gal It will be more efficient to burn oil when the price is less than $1.35/gal (110,500/82,000). YAY!!! I have just installed a hybrid system for my house (heat pump until it drops to 35-40F then oil...) |
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  Kringle Dr.D Premium join:2004-02-27 Pierrefonds, QC | That seems like a pretty high switch-over temperature to me (mine's at 10.4°F). Do you have any control over that? |
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  gjhgjkguyuityio
@cox.net
| reply to nonameyet We had oil at one house and had to replace it with a heat pump because it was orginal and leaking. The house unoccupied with heat pump was the same as our occupied house but we spent $2000 on oil in the winter.
Do you have airconditioning? Do you have ng service? You may want to consider switching to a heatpump with backup naturfal gas furnace. If your ducts are in good shape It would probably be $7000. You need the the fossil fuel in your climate. |
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  cowboyro
join:2000-10-11 Bridgeport, CT
·Comcast
·Optimum Voice
| reply to Kringle said by Kringle :That seems like a pretty high switch-over temperature to me (mine's at 10.4°F). Do you have any control over that? Haven't used it yet for heating, the system was completed last week... Looks like while the system works with lower temperatures, the efficiency decreases so the guy who installed it suggested to manually switch to oil if it gets very cold outside. |
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  Kringle Dr.D Premium join:2004-02-27 Pierrefonds, QC
·Bell Sympatico
| We have systems up here that only switch to oil at 5°F. I guess it all depends on what you figure is "very cold". I'm sure that you would still come out much further ahead if you only switched over at, say, 15°. You can use your calculations based on the efficiency curve of the heat pump and figure out a good switch-over temperature for your situation. |
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  cowboyro
join:2000-10-11 Bridgeport, CT | Of course I will have to get the docs and based on that calculate what the "break-even" point is... |
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  iu97987907907
@cox.net | reply to nonameyet Kringle look at your temps are they Fahrenheit or Celsius? |
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  R4M0N Brazilian Soccer Ownz Joo
join:2000-10-04 Glen Allen, VA
·Comcast
| reply to nonameyet I've had my heat pump keep the house comfortable when outside temperatures were negative at night, and it is a 16 year-old heat pump too.
It was only a two day thing though (with daytime temps on double digits) and then the temps went back to double digits for good. |
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  Kringle Dr.D Premium join:2004-02-27 Pierrefonds, QC
·Bell Sympatico
| reply to iu97987907907 said by iu97987907907 :
Kringle look at your temps are they Fahrenheit or Celsius? I very specifically put "°F" and "°C" where necessary in my posts to eliminate this confusion (knowing that this was an international forum). However, I just noticed that I forgot it in one place but that paragraph was talking about "°F" anyway.
To reiterate: My switch-over is set to -12°C or 10.4°F. |
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  Kringle Dr.D Premium join:2004-02-27 Pierrefonds, QC
·Bell Sympatico
edit: September 5th, @04:14PM
| reply to cowboyro said by cowboyro :I will have to get the docs and based on that calculate what the "break-even" point is... You're winters aren't that different from mine. The 10.4°F (-12°C) that I have was set by the electric utility and was determined to be fair for all heat pumps. You have a new heat pump so, off the top of my head, I think that you'd come pretty close to maximizing your return at a switch-over of around 15°F. |
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  hjghghkgk
@cox.net | reply to nonameyet Sorry Kringle I missed some of the train of thought, but in the Lower 48 we are told that below 40 degree F we should switch over to fossil fuel or electric to due to heat pump efficiency. |
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  Kringle Dr.D Premium join:2004-02-27 Pierrefonds, QC | Was that before the price of dinosaur fuel went through the roof? |
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  CatSnak Stick A Fork In Me, I'm Done Premium join:2001-05-06 Lakeside, CA
| reply to hjghghkgk said by hjghghkgk :
Sorry Kringle I missed some of the train of thought, but in the Lower 48 we are told that below 40 degree F we should switch over to fossil fuel or electric to due to heat pump efficiency. That would be acurate. Heat Pumps while great way to heat/cool are only optimum down to about 40F. Below that you are better off with an electric furnace or fossil fuel option. One thing many people forget is that the only true 100% effecient way to heat is with an electric furnace. It is the only heating device where you get a 1:1 ratio of BTU energy out for energy in. -- Founding member, 2002-2003, 2005-2006 Director of Communications, 2004-2005 Secretary for the Crunchenstein Project |
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  cowboyro
join:2000-10-11 Bridgeport, CT
·Comcast
·Optimum Voice
| said by CatSnak :One thing many people forget is that the only true 100% effecient way to heat is with an electric furnace. It is the only heating device where you get a 1:1 ratio of BTU energy out for energy in. 100% agreed, a heat furnace will convert all energy in heat with a HSPF ratio of 1. A heat pump in the normal operating temperature range has a HSPF of 6+  |
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  SparkChaser See the Light Premium join:2000-06-06 Downingtown, PA clubs:
·Verizon FIOS
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| reply to nonameyet Reading this »www.hydroquebec.com/residential/···omer.pdf
The crossover is -12C (10F) but it sounds like it goes to resistance heating until some number then the pump kicks in. |
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  Kringle Dr.D Premium join:2004-02-27 Pierrefonds, QC
·Bell Sympatico
edit: September 5th, @05:57PM
| Actually, the dual energy system uses a fossil fuel to heat when it's really cold out with a heat pump for all the other times.
In my case (oil heat plus heat pump) the system will run the heat pump for heating/cooling as long as the outside temp. is above 10.4°F (measured at the electric meter). I have no resistance heating anywhere.
This setup allows me to take advantage of a lower electric rate (4.333¢/kWh) anytime during the year when the temp. is above 10.4°F and use fossil fuels when I'm being charged the high rate (17.4¢/kWh) below that switch-over temperature.
EDIT: Note that when the heat pump is not able to maintain the household set temperature on it's own (can't draw enough heat from the outside ambient air because it's too cold), the oil heat will come on to assist, even above the switch-over temperature. |
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 robbin Premium,MVM join:2000-09-21 Leander, TX
| reply to CatSnak said by CatSnak :One thing many people forget is that the only true 100% effecient way to heat is with an electric furnace. It is the only heating device where you get a 1:1 ratio of BTU energy out for energy in. That is only partially true. The part of the equation which is missing is the fuel source used to make the electricity. For instance around here in the winter time the main sources of fuel are natural gas and coal. Neither are particuarily efficient to convert to electricity (figure less than 50% with many plants operating at less than 40%). On the other hand, my natural gas furnace is over 90% efficient. |
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