Sparrow
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join:2002-12-03
Varna, BG
edit:
September 3rd, @08:58AM
|  Large Hadron Collider (LHC) 10 September 2008
Wanted this posted in an open to all forum and suitable for a rant, rave or praise. Opinions please.
This should be required reading: Caution: Hold on to your hats!
For those not familiar with the LHC, a layman's brief summary:
Optimist's opinion: It is an experiment to recreate conditions immediately following the creation of the universe (as we know it) commonly referred to as the "Big Bang".
Pessimist's opinion: If the experiment goes awry, the entire world may be sucked into a black hole...
About the LHC
The LHC is an international research project based at CERN in Geneva, Switzerland, where scientists, engineers and support staff from 111 nations are combining state-of-the-art science and engineering in one of the largest scientific experiments ever conducted.
The LHC is the latest and most powerful in a series of particle accelerators that, over the last 70 years, have allowed us to penetrate deeper and deeper into the heart of matter and further and further back in time. The next steps in the journey will bring new knowledge about the beginning of our Universe and how it works, as the LHC recreates, on a microscale, conditions that existed billionths of a second after the birth of our Universe.
♦ ♦ OFFICIAL SITE of the LHC ♦ ♦
=============
Two public comments gleaned from 1,841 worth repeating here:
"This thing is a huge leap for all of humanity. Perhaps comparing the TeV increase as kilometers per hour might show how big this next step is.
2000 Breaking the 1 TeV .................................................................... 1 km/hr
2008 RHIC produces 1.96 TeV ......................................................... 2 km/hr
Soon LHC to run at 10 TeV .............................................................. 10 km/hr
Then LHC to run at 14 TeV when the magnets are 'trained' ..... 14 km/hr
Last LHC on lead to operate at 1148 TeV..................................1148 km/hr
It makes the jump in size much easier for me to understand when put in units that I am more familiar with. This is big and it is more than just a 5 or 7 times increase. Ultimately it will run at 500 times the energy of anything else ever built and that may mean put your seat belts on children we are all going for a ride."
Posted by Michael Noonan September 2, 08 09:05 AM =============
"The ALICE experiment involving head-on collisions of ionic lead at near light speed has disturbing potential: the objective is to destroy subatomic bonds by creating new particles that are incredibly dense (like a pinhead of matter weighing tons) and hot, as it is supposed existed shortly after the Big Bang. They admit a temperature 100,000 the center of the sun can be achieved, but had to express confidence these magnets cooled to near absolute zero with liquid helium and argon can contain this. Success means finding exotic particles that are inherently dangerous, but having underestimated their power could lead to tragic failure. The collisions of protons seem like a possible fusion experiment more likely to apply for usable energy. These physicists are interested in resolving theories about the nature of mass and anti-matter, not necessarily thinking about practical objectives or even whether staging such experimental conditions are advisable. And it's not as if we don't have cryptic, previously implausible prophetic texts that could refer to something like this going horrifically awry. Perhaps it is our collective destiny to reach towards this knowledge, although as individuals we may hold to the conviction that a benefit must demonstrated to outweigh the risk."
Posted by earthlifer September 2, 08 03:05 PM =============
(Edit to correct "Official Site" link and minor .html details) |
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CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
 ·Speakeasy
| Opinions of what? What will happen? If it should have been built?
The hysteria is unfounded - people wanting to get their names in the news and papers for their 5 minutes of 'fame'.
--
Brian
It drops into your stomach like a Abrams's tank.... driven by Rosanne Barr... |
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Pete Za
@qsc.de
 from:
tapeloop 
| reply to Sparrow
said by Sparrow :Pessimist's opinion: If the experiment goes awry, the entire world may be sucked into a black hole... Any word on when (date and time) the aforementioned experiment will be taking place, exactly?
Normally, I begrudge myself extra cheese when ordering a pizza. But if I knew when this thing was going to get fired up, I could certainly make it a point to not only get a pizza, but also to ask for extra cheese and damn the expense.
(You know, seeing as how it could be my last pizza and all.) |
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Sparrow
Premium
join:2002-12-03
Varna, BG
| said by Pete Za :said by Sparrow :Pessimist's opinion: If the experiment goes awry, the entire world may be sucked into a black hole... Any word on when (date and time) the aforementioned experiment will be taking place, exactly? Normally, I begrudge myself extra cheese when ordering a pizza. But if I knew when this thing was going to get fired up, I could certainly make it a point to not only get a pizza, but also to ask for extra cheese and damn the expense. (You know, seeing as how it could be my last pizza and all.) It's in the title of the thread - September 10, 2008 is kick-off time.
I'd go for the extra cheese in any event!
--
"Be simple, be earnest and spread that simplicity throughout everything you do." |
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Sparrow
Premium
join:2002-12-03
Varna, BG
| reply to CylonRed
said by CylonRed :Opinions of what? What will happen? If it should have been built? The hysteria is unfounded - people wanting to get their names in the news and papers for their 5 minutes of 'fame'. Whether we agree or disagree, this IS a momentous occasion. Simply from a construction and development point of view, it is positively brilliant and beyond my capability to properly express my awe at the workmanship and co-operation involved.
--
"Be simple, be earnest and spread that simplicity throughout everything you do." |
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CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County | It is certainly incredible - no question about it... |
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Pete Za
@qsc.de
| reply to Sparrow
said by Sparrow :It's in the title of the thread - September 10, 2008 is kick-off time. I looked at the link under the "hold onto your hats" text, but here's all I could find:
The European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN) is preparing for its first small tests in early August, leading to a planned full-track test in September - and the first planned particle collisions before the end of the year.
The "full-track test" doesn't say anything about actual particle collisions, which supposedly won't take place until the end of the year.
Am I missing something? |
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CS Anon Style
@apexcovantage.com | Follow »www.lhc.ac.uk/latest-news.html
Have to go out, but check all the links. |
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tapeloop
Light, sweet triceratops.
Premium
join:2004-06-27
Airstrip One
| reply to Sparrow
»www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3iryBLZCOQ
As far as raps about particle physics go, this one's pretty good. |
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Pete Za
@qsc.de
| reply to CS Anon Style
I have, thanks, and here's what I found:
Proton beams have already been injected into the first metres of the LHC, to test the injection process, but the first attempt to circulate beams all the way around the LHC will be on the official start up day. If everything proceeds according to plan the beam will circulate all the way around the 27 km long LHC. Over the following months the LHC scientists and engineers will commission the LHC, running beams at higher energy with the intention of beginning collisions, using relatively low energy (5TeV) beams, towards the end of 2008.
IOW: the only thing that's happening on September 10 is that they are going to fire it up and see if it actually works (or not). But actual collisions (i.e. what might, theoretically, actually turn us all into People Pâté) are not scheduled to take place until sometime "towards the end of 2008."
I sure hope they plan to tell us exactly which day we stand a chance (however slight) of being sucked into a black hole of man's making.
While I think of it: just who is their insurance carrier (assuming they even have one, of course)? Whether or not they were able to find an insurer would reveal quite a bit about how save this thing really is. |
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CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County | If you have enough money - you can insure anything thru Lloyds of London and it has no bearing on how 'safe' something is. |
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Pete Za
@qsc.de
| said by CylonRed :If you have enough money - you can insure anything thru Lloyds of London and it has no bearing on how 'safe' something is. The premium Lloyds charges is certainly reflective of how safe they think it is. And while, as you say, it's likely that anything you can think of can be insured, the premium required for a project of this size (and a project plagued by a great many delays and cost overruns, apparently) may be prohibitive.
That's why I'm curious as to whether or not they are insured with a private carrier or if, say, the Swiss Government has stepped in and pledged to make it all good in case of any boo-boos.
The LHC has already claimed the life of a technician during its construction (in 2005, I believe). While people die in construction accidents all the time, I'm sure it hasn't helped things. |
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CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
·Speakeasy
| With anything this big and complicated - I would bet the countries are 'insuring' it. It claimed a life - makes no difference what so ever in its safety and clearly has no real impact. Nor sure what it is supposed to have not helped as it has zero to do with it running...
It will smash particles and no one else will know it is running aside from a article or 2 to the regular press and will be forgotten by the masses. |
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Pete Za
@qsc.de
| said by CylonRed :It claimed a life - makes no difference what so ever in its safety and clearly has no real impact. Nor sure what it is supposed to have not helped as it has zero to do with it running... I said "it hasn't helped things" because a worker getting killed during construction is not likely to help you in terms of either meeting your completion date or reducing cost overruns any. All action tends to grind to a halt, for one thing, and accident investigations cost money for another.
Not to mention project morale; someone getting killed on a job site is not something you can just shrug off. Things move forward, sure, but when people Punt Big like that, it tends to cast a bit of a pall.
said by CylonRed :It will smash particles and no one else will know it is running aside from a article or 2 to the regular press and will be forgotten by the masses. Let's hope so. And while it has yet to smash a single particle, it's certainly "smashed" a few billion Euros, that's for sure.
I wonder when we'll know if it was worth it? |
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CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
·Speakeasy
| I don't think one death will cast a pall - the Big Dig has had far more deaths but I don't think it had a huge effect on construction delays as there were plenty of other reasons for the delays and over runs.
It will probably be many year before we know if it was 'worth' it. This type of study takes a large amount of time to study and get results. |
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Pete Za
@qsc.de
| said by CylonRed :I don't think one death will cast a pall - the Big Dig has had far more deaths but I don't think it had a huge effect on construction delays as there were plenty of other reasons for the delays and over runs. Well with any luck, the CERN people will enjoy ceilings that stay up where they're supposed to. That ceiling panel collapse in Boston grabbed quite a few headlines, IIRC, and not the kind of headlines Boston needs.
BBC Radio 4 is supposed to devote a day of programming to the LHC on the 10th. Frankly, I may tune in, if only to see how a radio broadcaster can stretch this thing out for an entire day:
"Wow! That beam sure is something!"
"Yup. Really, really something!"
"I agree! It's certainly......something." |
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jwersan
R.I.P. Mom, Brian, Ziggy, and RichK1957
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join:2004-12-20
Port Jefferson Station, NY
clubs:
 ·Optimum Online
| reply to Sparrow
If this thing does create a "Black Hole", how long after the creation before we die??
Seriously, does it happen instantaneously or is there a progression to total annihilation of earth???
--
RIAA/MPAA... Bite me!!!!
In constant search for intelligent life on Earth! |
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Sparrow
Premium
join:2002-12-03
Varna, BG
| I certainly hope instantaneously or they wait until I cross the pond as to be close enough to receive the full brunt of the implosion(?).
From my feeble understanding of the physics, they have no idea what type of particle shall be created and subsequently no firm idea of the reaction. I think that is the whole idea behind the experiment to discover the answer to this very question.
The tunnel through which the beam shall pass is 17 miles long - underground. If a 3 mile crater was created by a meteor's impact upon hitting the earth, who knows what shall happen if there is a horrific accident underground.
Whatever the consequences, even if positive after the experiment is fully executed, the implications of the far-reaching effects of the technology will likely fall into similar governmental hands that created the A-Bomb. 111 Nations are working together on this, and I only heard of it yesterday - that is more frightening than the actual experiment.
--
"Be simple, be earnest and spread that simplicity throughout everything you do." |
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hairspring
join:2007-11-23
Oakville, ON
| reply to Sparrow
»www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY6vlTdNNjU |
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Sparrow
Premium
join:2002-12-03
Varna, BG
| reply to tapeloop
said by tapeloop :(youtube clip) far as raps about particle physics go, this one's pretty good. It's not just good, it is superb! It explains everything simply, accurately, with a decent beat, and what appear to be good natured techies!
Gee, I won't even feel so bad if we do blow now. Kind of reminds me of the operating rooms which are cold as ice and rock blasting to keep everyone awake during those over 8 hour surgeries. If you don't keep it light, you would wind up going insane.
Thanks very much. 
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"Be simple, be earnest and spread that simplicity throughout everything you do." |
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