pstewart
Premium,VIP
join:2005-10-12
Peterborough, ON
1 edit | reply to Ravage_D
Re: [Rant] Torrents? ..Who needs them..
Personally, I agree ... everyone will have an opinion here based on their requirements. And some ISP's bundle Usenet with their services as a value add which can be very nice.... |
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elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
join:2006-08-30
Toronto, ON | reply to Ravage_D
Download headers? Never hear of NZB's? Or use the search function most NSP offer?
I had a GS once, hated it.. went back to my //e |
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Black Moon
join:2005-02-01
Scarborough, ON
 ·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to Guspaz
said by Guspaz  :Usenet costs money, torrents are free. Usenet has poor selection, torrents have far more available content, including much that is not and will never be on usenet. There's no comparison. Free and greater selection versus expensive and limited selection. I also generally do not have problems with fake or spam torrents. I second this, minus Guspaz's love for private trackers (which basically go against the filesharing principle even though they claim they don't).
I don't have much experience with usenet. Tried it some years ago, found it difficult to set up and find content (someone know a good guide on setting this up in Ubuntu?) and I don't like paying a monthly $10/mo for some 10 GB or so of content. |
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Ikarasu
join:2004-01-09
Port Coquitlam, BC
 ·ITalkBB
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| You use ubuntu and have trouble with newsgroups? :P If your willing to take the plunge and go linux, I'd say newsgroups will be a breeze for you.
I only toy around in linux, dont use it on any of my main comps, so not sure which are good newsgroup programs. Find one that does nzbs, then goto some free nzb site. Then it works like torrents... you search for what you want, dl the nzb, hit open, and it should work.
Better yet... find one that has a built in supersearch function, and it dumbs down newsgroups so theyre easier then P2P like Kazaa/Limewire/Naspter.
Theres also a pretty good $12 a month provider, ngroups.net, unlimited downloads and really cheap. Maxes out my Internet connection too. |
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TFArchive
Premium
join:2003-02-03
Gloucester, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to Ravage_D
I too prefer newsgroups, I've used them for over 10 years now, before p2p really existed. I think the reason people are hesitant to use newsgroups is because it takes a bit of setup/learning to use them, although with nzbs and programs like grabit it is as easy as torrents.
Public Torrents are great for selection but the problem with them is they tend to die pretty quickly, so if you find a torrent that is over 30 days old you are likely to have problems getting decent speeds or completing it.
Private trackers are different as they have dedicated people seeding long term things to boost their ratio. With private trackers it is really hard to keep the 1:1 ratio with a residential connection as by the time you finish the file so have 100 other people and the power seeders are still giving the most amount of bandwidth, so you'll be seeding for days if you download anything but small stuff.
I rarely use torrents and when I do I use my 100mbit dedicated server as I know I can get to 1:1 ratio with that.
For newsgroups and with the advent of nzb files it is un-necessary to download headers unless you are looking for some un-indexed stuff. Once an episode is posted it doesn't usually take long to be indexed at the major nzb sites so you're downloading right away. Yes torrents are up a bit quicker in most cases but it is a trade off, do you want 0-sec pre's or are you okay with waiting 5-10 minutes for popular stuff (TV shows) to be posted to newsgroups where you don't have to keep a ratio.
Yes, newsgroups cost money, but for the amount of time I spend dealing a with downloads it is far easier for me to tag a bunch of nzbs and let newsbin download for days. It autopars and can even extract stuff for me if I choose. With torrents you have to manage which one gets how much bandwidth and stop seeding 1:1 files so the others can try to get to 1:1. |
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Ravage_D
join:2003-03-28
Kingston, ON
·Primus Telecommuni..
·Cogeco Voip
| reply to Ravage_D
Thanks everybody for your comments! This is actually the type of debate I was looking for.
I honestly think the difficulty in getting started is what prevents people from using newsgroups -- but it's all a matter of what programs/websites you use.
There's a program called Alt.Binz, which is what I've been using, that has a built in search function for several sites that allow you to one-click download or stream as you download.
There are also sites like nzbmatrix.com which host nzb files for you to download and import into Alt.Binz (or other programs) allowing you to again, one click download from the web almost exactly like torrents.
Also I know people on this forum are more likely to be advanced computer users -- but a lot of my thoughts on newsgroups apply for the basic everyday user (like my house mates for instance).
Several people on here admitted straight up that torrents are great with their private trackers/sites. Okay, great. So you have this private tracker that requires 1:1 or similar ratios. I don't think everyday joe-blow could use it simply because they can't get a membership or whatnot. Even if they were willing to pay for it.
Anybody can get complete access to the newsgroups with their subscription to the news server.
So sure, if you're using an advanced set up to get around throttling (MLPPP) or using private/exclusive tracking sites then great. Go for torrents. But I'm saying average people wont bother.
And does it really matter how fast a piece of content gets posted? If it's one hour on Usenet vs. half an hour on torrent site X. Again, for those advanced users who really care -- fine again! But most average people don't.
The other very strong argument is the bandwidth usage. Usenet is only downstream! So for people (like me..and many others) who have bandwidth caps that include both up and down, I can get up to twice as much content.
Sure torrents may have more obscure things. But again -- a lot of average user only wants last nights episode of X or last weeks episode of this or whatever. Guaranteed to be on Usenet. Perhaps half an hour after it appears on torrents but then again, you're maxing out your connection speed instantly on usenet.. you may save some time.
And as for Wargames in HD, I too found it on Usenet (the 1080i version), but I failed to find it on isohunt or mininova or thepiratebay. Looks like you had to turn to one of those exclusive private sites again. But that's fine.
I agree completely with Ikarasu. It's not whether one protocol is better or worse than the other they both have applications. I'm just saying that after using Usenet and seeing how great it is, I didn't understand why others haven't been using it. I have a better idea of it now that we've had this discussion.
But I still feel that people (again, people I consider average -- my friends and whatnot who aren't computer experts or well versed in the internet) should just forget the nightmare that is torrents and throttling and just go with Usenet.
Ikarasu, you'd actually be surprised how much HD is available on Usenet! Check out nzbmatrix and filter movies by HD. I've a PS3 which streams great and all the PS3AVCHD releases are out on Usenet (no need for conversion). |
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Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC | To me, the big thing is that usenet is not free, while torrents (even private sites) are. If I'm not going to download/upload enough for my cap to matter, I'd rather not pay extra for something that I can already get. |
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Ikarasu
join:2004-01-09
Port Coquitlam, BC
·ITalkBB
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| Well, it's only $4 on Teksavvy...decent retention, just slow downloads.
$12 is probably a lot if you get a few shows... but when you think of it, $12 isn't even the price of 1 blu ray. But if you can get it on Torrent for free, I see your point.
Ravage_D:
Since your getting into newsgroups... you might want to give Newsleecher a try. They have a 30 day trial where you can test supersearch out. It's raw header downloads, and a lot more advanced the Alt.Binz search, or any nzb site. $30 for a year if you decide to buy it, But well worth it. It's also very very "Nub" friendly, I recommend it to everyone I know that still uses limewire and all the Virii filled P2P Stuff.... and they've never looked back.
And yeah, theres probably a ton of HDTV on Newsgroups, I just recently got my TV so I haven't played around with it yet.
I'll say 1 more thing in defense of torrent - RSS feeds. Can set up Utorrent to auto download your shows as they're posted, set and forget... (Can do it with newsgroups too, but it's complicated to setup).
Both are great... so why use just 1 :P I'm sure you'll find that you'll not be giving up on torrents just yet. Glad you discovered newsgroups though  Lets hope it stays a bit obscure, the more people that use it, the more attention it gets, which is always a bad thing for these kind of services  |
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CingKrab
join:2002-12-31
| reply to Guspaz
You don't have to go unlimited. You could purchase a block account from Astraweb or Usenet News. Astraweb is 25 GB/$10 or 110 GB/$25. I'm using Shaw out west and it can max out my connection at ~1100 kB/s, which is a helluva lot faster than what I get from torrents. |
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Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
·Colbanet
| 25GB for $10? That's barely anything, and once again, torrents are FREE. I can also max out my DSL line(s) at ~1100KB/s on a private tracker.
I've heard the arguments that private trackers are hard to get on, so they don't count. Except I'm already ON various private trackers, so why should I pay $10 or $25 for something I'm already getting for free? |
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gnumantsc
join:2003-07-23
·ELECTRONICBOX
| reply to Ravage_D
But it seems that we are missing the point that it seems you are talking about illegal files here on Usenet.
What about downloading linux distros which mainly use p2p? I don't see the latest distro being offered on newsgroups. I would be extremely surprised if they were offered. |
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Stewy
Premium
join:2007-12-12
Kitchener, ON
| reply to Guspaz
said by Guspaz :25GB for $10? That's barely anything, and once again, torrents are FREE. I can also max out my DSL line(s) at ~1100KB/s on a private tracker. so why should I pay $10 or $25 for something I'm already getting for free? Let me get to the point, there are some things that no matter how fast or good or free torrents are that you simply can't get on torrents whether private or public for which you can get with ease on usenet.
Usenet and torrents have their good and bad points, I use usenet %98 of the time over torrents, and for $8.35/month for 50Gigs which rolls over it's not that bad. |
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Ravage_D
join:2003-03-28
Kingston, ON
·Primus Telecommuni..
·Cogeco Voip
| reply to Ravage_D
Just a few more comments! Thanks again for posting guys and I will definitely look into Newsleecher. Thanks Ikarasu!
Guspaz:
Yes, we understand that in your situation you're most likely paying for two DSL lines which I would imagine are running in MLPPP through most likely a router with Tomato firmware. We also understand that you've done all the work required to circumvent the throttling on what I assume are Bell lines and that you're actively maintaining your ratios on the private sites that you're a member of. Of course I could be completely wrong in this assumption but that's just my best guess.
Nobody is holding a gun to your head here and telling you to use Usenet. If I had the same amazing setup as you did.. you're right. I'd never use Usenet either.
Just please recognize that your situation is not that common and there are a lot of people out there who perhaps can't afford a second DSL line (but can afford an extra $13/month) or who don't know how to get in to such a great set up.
I'm on Cable :P There's no switching to DSL for me, even though that temptation is great.....
gnumantsc: Well, this is a good point. Although when I did a search for some iso releases, there are a few. But definitely not nearly as good of a selection as would be found distributed using the torrent protocol.
However, realistically, and I don't want to just pull some ridiculous percentage out of nowhere so I wont. But I'd reckon (haha) that the vast majority of torrent traffic is some form of "illegal" file transfer. Of course once again, I could be completely wrong -- I'm no traffic expert.
For those people unfortunately throttled when trying to get the distros, I guess they'll just have to download off of the mirror sites or universities that host the iso releases.. |
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nanook
Premium,MVM
join:2007-12-02
·Bell Sympatico
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to Stewy
said by Stewy :there are some things that no matter how fast or good or free torrents are that you simply can't get on torrents whether private or public for which you can get with ease on usenet. Oh? Is that so? Do you also get previews before you download. (I have obscured the photos here because the subject matter is NSFW.) |
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Stewy
Premium
join:2007-12-12
Kitchener, ON
| said by nanook :Do you also get previews before you download. Yes you can preview a usenet post, just d/l the first part or parts and unrar it and view it with VLC no problem.
You didn't show how many seeds there were and since It's a private tracker I can't even get to it. The listing may be there but unless there's a seed forget it.
Unlike p2p if it's there I'm guaranteed to get it, no private begging, pleading, groveling, ratios or favors in return required.
--
It's all... part of the plan. |
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Black Moon
join:2005-02-01
Scarborough, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to Ikarasu
said by Ikarasu :You use ubuntu and have trouble with newsgroups? :P If your willing to take the plunge and go linux, I'd say newsgroups will be a breeze for you. Well, I have been using Linux since 99 at work, but always had Windows at home because of games. Now that I can run most games in Linux as well as the latter constantly improving, I made the switch to Linux last year. I'm as happy as a pig in shit. I could never go back to Windows. My wife feels the same way (and she's not very computer savvy).
As for newsgroups, as I said, I just have not given it a try for many years. If anyone knows good, free newsgroups that don't impose too small caps, I'm sure I could be tempted.
quote:
I only toy around in linux, dont use it on any of my main comps, so not sure which are good newsgroup programs. Find one that does nzbs, then goto some free nzb site. Then it works like torrents... you search for what you want, dl the nzb, hit open, and it should work.
NZBs?
quote:
Better yet... find one that has a built in supersearch function, and it dumbs down newsgroups so theyre easier then P2P like Kazaa/Limewire/Naspter.
Will have a look soon.
quote:
Theres also a pretty good $12 a month provider, ngroups.net, unlimited downloads and really cheap. Maxes out my Internet connection too.
America only, or also from Europe? I'll be moving to France in two weeks. |
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nanook
Premium,MVM
join:2007-12-02
·Bell Sympatico
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to Stewy
said by Stewy :You didn't show how many seeds there were and since It's a private tracker I can't even get to it. The listing may be there but unless there's a seed forget it. Well you did say "private or public" 
But since you ask, it is seeded (1.8 copies available) and I am downloading it as we speak.
(Yes, it could be seeded better, but I am in no hurry.) |
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Stewy
Premium
join:2007-12-12
Kitchener, ON
| reply to Black Moon
said by Black Moon :If anyone knows good, free newsgroups A "good" and "free" binary newsgroup doesn't exist, if you want something decent you'll need a provider.
--
It's all... part of the plan. |
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Black Moon
join:2005-02-01
Scarborough, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| said by Stewy :A "good" and "free" binary newsgroup doesn't exist, if you want something decent you'll need a provider. Alright, how about one that is free? Speed is less important to me than money, though I am open to suggestions for paid newsgroups with good content.
Then again, almost all my needs are either satisfied by torrents or eMule. Unless someone can find Quincy Jones' 'Basie & Beyond' as FLAC or APE on newsgroups - and a few other rarities - I don't think I'd need to bother. |
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Ikarasu
join:2004-01-09
Port Coquitlam, BC
·ITalkBB
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| Teksavvy (Presuming your still on them) Provides free binary newsgroups if you pay $4 a month for a static IP. It's limited at 1.5M though I believe.
Flacs are one thing I miss about torrents tbh. They don't have flacs... but nowheres near as much as Oink did. I hear waffles has a lot... but sadly it's private, and since I got out of the BT scene... not very easy to find someone with invites. You might have better luck though...and I imagine they'd have it in flac :P |
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