Killa200
join:2005-12-02
Spring City, TN
| Cost of running a WiSP?
I figured that i would ask this question for me any others looking to get involved in a project like this. What all does it cost you for things like getting a customer up or getting an AP up in terms of equipment. I'm not really looking for the "magic number" of how much this is gonna cost me to get going.
Ive been running through things all the way down to cost per feet of ground wire, rubber tape for n connectors, and little things like this. I figured i would ask in here to see if i am hitting close to the ballpark with my numbers. |
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AMD Phreak
Please do the needfull
Premium
join:2003-12-14
| Well before management permits me to construct a new site i have to do all of the preliminary engineering and planning. Depending on how much site construction must be done (towers or rooftops) and if a shelter must be constructed or retrofitted with power ac and grounding, and how many sectors and backhauls are required the price varies. I'd guess on average to do things right is about 15K or so. |
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sarpkaya
join:2008-03-04
Izmir, TR | 15K $ is only for license + taxes + setting company in Turkey. May be it is more than 15K $. So make a research about that. You may need some special license for TN state. |
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John Galt
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Oceanside, OR
| said by sarpkaya  :You may need some special license for TN state. Probably the same fee for setting up a still.
J/K 
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A is A |
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AMD Phreak
Please do the needfull
Premium
join:2003-12-14 | hahahaha |
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superdog
I Need A Drink
Premium,MVM
join:2001-07-13
Lebanon, PA
 ·WaveCrazy.Net
| reply to Killa200
said by Killa200 : What all does it cost you for things like getting a customer up or getting an AP up in terms of equipment. I'm not really looking for the "magic number" of how much this is gonna cost me to get going. This is a very hard question to answer, even giving you a round about figure is tough. it will depend on the platform (type of radio, frequency used and OEM of the radio) that you wish to use.
For instance, using Deliberant or Highgain radios will cost a LOT less than if you use Trango or Motorola gear. Some will tell you that using the high end gear is the only way to go, as it will save you time in the end with less repeat truck rolls and better uptime etc.
If you choose that route, you upfront costs will almost 1/3 higher if not more?. I for one do not believe that, as I have lots of standard 802.11b/g radios in the field and I have not been back to most of them since the original install. IMHO, it is all about the quality of your work when doing the install that makes the difference.
Installing radios with marginal signal level, trees in the way that could grow thicker and taller, perhaps even setting up a radio that could be running fine but yet it is actually picking up a reflected signal will all cause you grief and a truck roll in the future. These are the things that will make trouble for you, not the equipment in most cases.
When first starting out, most new WISP's have the tendency to try and install every person that calls. I remember spending days just trying to hook up one customer because I felt I had to so I could make some $$. I have cut down entire trees thinking it would improve the signal level and the only good thing that came out of that was the potential customer now had a tree removed for free that otherwise would have cost him $500 to have removed.
Getting back to the original topic (Sorry!  ), your costs will depend on what I mentioned in the first paragraph. There could be a few thousand $$ difference depending on what route you take. Rooftops could cost you less than erecting a 100ft tower, but perhaps you don't have any roofs to use?, and in that case, you need to add in the tower costs.
In the area you live in, what will the majority of the installs need?. I guess what I mean is, do most of the houses have chimneys and require satellite mounts or can you get away with simple under the eaves mounting?. This will affect your costs. It does appear that you have thought about all of this though, as you have figured your costs all the way down to the tape you use.
It costs me about $120 on the low end to $220 on the high end to install a customer. The difference being the gear needed to complete the link. I never factor my time into any of this, as I just consider it an investment to my future. If you have to pay an employee or sub-contractor, you will need to add this cost into your figures also and this will drive up the install cost considerably.
I guess I am throwing all of this out there to try and help you understand that costs will vary so much from area to area and install to install that it is really impossible to give any concrete or even non-magical # per install. If I were a better book keeper, I could go back and look at all of the installs I did in 2007 and average them out?. That # would be a little closer to what you are looking for perhaps?.
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»www.wavecrazy.net
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AMD Phreak
Please do the needfull
Premium
join:2003-12-14
| reply to Killa200
I agree with everything Superdog has said. You can save up-front costs by using vendors that are lower cost. You must do your homework though either way to ensure the spectrum is clear and uncontested or you will find yourself in a real mess.
Don't rush on the installs. Take the time to do it right the first time, and you'll have a happy customer who will refer other customers to you.
In my experience a typical install lasts from 2 to 4 hours (sometimes more) depending on where the equipment must go, the location of the utility ground (for the all important surge protector) and how complex the run is to get into the building.
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"No job is so important, and no service is so urgent that we cannot take the time to do it safely."
-- AT&T
--Safety One Tower Rescue Certified
--LLigetfa:"Wimax is like teenage sex. Everyone talks about doing it." |
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cmaenginsb
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-19
Palmdale, CA
| reply to Killa200
The biggest cost is the equipment you choose. As others have said if you go with the big names (Motorola,Trango, Alvarion) you're going to pay big money in many cases 2 times what you would with an 802.11 based setup.
Our general cost for a site (multiple APs and 1 or more backhaul) is probably 10k for mostly 802.11b APs and 15 k for a Canopy site. A per customer cost for equipment and installation ranges from $300 up to and beyond $500.
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CCNA, Comtrain Certified Tower Climber |
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tx_tower
join:2007-11-13
Blanco, TX
| superdog hit it pretty much dead on. 1 thing i would like to stress is DONT install everyone that calls. You are not a utility and can choose which customers to offer service to. Ive had several "sorry no signal" installs after talking with a customer onsite. someone people just arent worth the hassle.
Also in the long run it is much better to install say a 900mhz AP, to serve customers with line if sight issues rather than mounting large masts to get over the obstacle(trees, buildings, etc.) these masts lead to higher install prices or increased costs per customer. And almost always have more issues than a simple eave mounted installation. I would go no higher than 10ft(with tripod or eave mount) in ANY situation.
On to equipment: If price point is a concern I would check out www.mikrotik.com and www.routerboard.com, backhauls/AP's/CPEs all reasonably priced and very competative on performance as well. Very robust interface that allows you to monitor in realtime.
Other than that, good luck and be careful who your let install for you. 1 bad installer can costs you thousands of dollars down the road so screen them well and make sure you doublecheck their work. |
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sarpkaya
join:2008-03-04
Izmir, TR
 ·VoIPRaider
| reply to Killa200
If I were you I won't listen'em.
Go and get Mikrotik RB433AH(3x) around 150$/pc
Buy Mikrotik RB411AH(5x) around 100$/pc
Buy R52 or(and)* R52H (15x) around 50/60$/pc
Buy outdoor case(8x or 4x**) around 20-40$/pc
Buy a surge protector 0-6 GHZ (15x) around 20-40$/pc
Cables&connectors&etc around 100-300$/pc
Buy high gained sector antenna 120 degree beamwidth(9x)(I'd prefer 5Ghz if you don't have any problems with licensing about 5 Ghz or not permitted to use) around 50-500$/pc
Buy 24 dBi 5 Ghz panel or more gainer grid antenna (5x) 3o-100$/pc
Well everything seems OK
*If the radiolink is less than 5 mile use R52 for RadioLink if it is more than use R52H.
** You can use 24 dBi Rootenna as a Outdoor housing+ antenna for radiolink.
You'll have a 3 different stations and they will communicate with each other.
All you need is an internet connection and billing+radius software.
I'd prefer you to use Ubiquiti Nanostation 5 for customers who is living closer to your transmitter(s). That is around 100$ |
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John Galt
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Oceanside, OR
| said by sarpkaya :If I were you I won't listen'em. I agree...
It is clearly evident by their thousands of informed postings that these people have NO IDEA how to run a WISP, or what it costs.
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A is A |
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sarpkaya
join:2008-03-04
Izmir, TR | I will not spend my any cents to 802.11B. It is throwing money to bin. Use G or if available, use 5 ghz so it can't make any interference in Super G(40 Mhz) |
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Chele
join:2003-07-23
| said by sarpkaya :I will not spend my any cents to 802.11B. It is throwing money to bin. Use G or if available, use 5 ghz so it can't make any interference in Super G(40 Mhz) Can you please tell me how G is different from B? It is a very brave of you to suggest that advise given here should be ignored, specially since you have come here looking for it several times. |
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robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX | And then ignoring it!  |
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sarpkaya
join:2008-03-04
Izmir, TR | reply to Killa200
Using 802.11b = Competition with GPRS/EDGE
Using 802.11g = Competition with UMTS, ADSL, Dial-up, etc... |
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MicroWISP
join:2008-01-30
TX Republic
edit:
August 18th, @06:19AM
| I thought the real difference in b/g was b is 11Mbit/s max throughput and g is 54Mbit/s...? I use quite a bit of b stuff out there. Why would I use a g device at a customer's house when say we only allow him throughput of 1.5Mbit/s down and 512 kbs up, and the main supply feed of that WISP may be only 3Mbit/s up/down? I just don't see why I would need a more expensive G-device here... Of course it is 5:00 am and I'm not awake yet so maybe I am missing something? Only reason I could see using G is just in case I ever upgrade to a bigger pipe and offer more customer bandwidth then I wouldn't have to change out a CPE.
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"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it." |
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sarpkaya
join:2008-03-04
Izmir, TR
·VoIPRaider
| throughput is important thing if you are going to be nice WISP.
Another thing is, if that guy rich(I'm asking the owner of this topic)
Use N-stream 2 and use 6 sectors per transmitter.
So you will have 108x3 real throughput which makes you competative with Cable, ADSL2+.
Of course if you are wisp in a place something like desert. And planning to make your tariff like 256 kbps download/128 kbps upload. Than use it but you can't use that in big urban city. |
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superdog
I Need A Drink
Premium,MVM
join:2001-07-13
Lebanon, PA
·WaveCrazy.Net
| reply to MicroWISP
said by sarpkaya :I will not spend my any cents to 802.11B. It is throwing money to bin. sarpkaya , most of the time I defend you and give you the benefit of the doubt when I read any of your statements, as I try and take all of the things into account, like your use of the English language, culture and a few other differences.
This time, I must say, Please do not offer advice on a subject you really do not understand yourself. When you make statements like the one above, it is obvious to me that asking you for an answer about radios is the same as me asking my Lawyer how to pull a tooth. It is just a bad idea, and I'll bet it would be very painful in the end.
Please stop and really think your answers through. I know you are not stupid, as you can speak and read in two languages and I can only do it in one.
said by MicroWISP :I thought the real difference in b/g was b is 11Mbit/s max throughput and g is 54Mbit/s...? It is. It also takes higher signal level to maintain a G only network
said by MicroWISP :I use quite a bit of b stuff out there. Why would I use a g device at a customer's house when say we only allow him throughput of 1.5Mbit/s down and 512 kbs up, and the main supply feed of that WISP may be only 3Mbit/s up/down? I just don't see why I would need a more expensive G-device here... You really don't. Trying to use an all G network could be a bad idea in most cases. In order for you to create a stable working network that can handle not only fade margins but other types of intermittent signal issues (Phones, video cameras etc..), you need to run in all B. If you have a T1 for a backbone?, why would you need anything else?.
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»www.wavecrazy.net
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sarpkaya
join:2008-03-04
Izmir, TR
edit:
August 18th, @07:19AM
| What If you have 100 mbps backbone? |
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MicroWISP
join:2008-01-30
TX Republic
| A year ago when we were offering tiered service plans at set DL/UL speeds, I would have said that I would still only provide B for a CPE as I had no plans to offer anything to a home user faster than B capabilities - BUT... all of our plans are now speed transparent, they are all the 'same' speed and our subs get to use everything we have to offer instead of us just sitting on unused bandwidth so now if I had a 100mbps backbone I would build out making sure my APs and CPEs were G.
And also if I had 100mbps Fast Ethernet for a backbone I would be "Really Really Happy!!!" I can get 45mbps for $3100.00 per month if I want it from Level 3, but I just don't have the market for all that bandwidth.
Dave, I try to make sure we keep a 20 db sig to noise ratio minimum and 30 when I can on all CPE tp AP and always 30 db on PtP and any WDS stuff we have up so I can support G if need be. I have found if I take the time to have the best sig to noise ratios and really fine tune ACK timing and RTS settings that I can sleep very well at night with very minimal network issues. It pays to get the 'best' signal you can instead of "that's good enough, lock it down."
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"Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it." |
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