Jakiel00
join:2007-12-12
Mckinney, TX
| reply to ErikVKing
Re: Locks steal gold from healers.... little thieves!
Oh gotcha. Yeah I don't think that raiding in some PVP gear is bad. In fact my S2 Shield will not be replaced until MAYBE BT, so I will be stickin with that. I guess it would be different with certain classes? But I don't have a problem if guys have some PVP gear on.
Recount never lies  |
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dynodb
Premium,VIP
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
| reply to MaybeTrouble
said by MaybeTrouble  :IF a lock thinks he needs healing, tell him to use all those fears he has. They're pretty much asking for it after all the crap they give us in Arena. Not my problem lock, die like the dog you are. You almost never want to fear in a raid. As often as not it ends up aggro'ing another mob and risks a wipe. The only exception is if there's no possibility of that happening.
I don't play my lock much anymore (rogue is more fun), but I've had it go both ways- healers tell me to life tap because they have enough mana regen to cover it, and others tell me not to. If I do, I tell them not to heal the taps. |
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dynodb
Premium,VIP
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
| reply to Jakiel00
said by Jakiel00 :Oh gotcha. Yeah I don't think that raiding in some PVP gear is bad. In fact my S2 Shield will not be replaced until MAYBE BT, so I will be stickin with that. I guess it would be different with certain classes? But I don't have a problem if guys have some PVP gear on. Recount never lies Some quest/rep blues are better for PvE than S2 epics. It depends- for PvE I use S2 daggers, bracers and boots only because I haven't gotten upgrades for them yet. I use a blue helm and shoulders over the S1/S2 epics I have for those slots.
My main is a rogue, and PvP gear lacks the necessary +hit and AP for PvE- intead it's scaled towards stamina and +crit. Nothing wrong with using some PvP gear for PvE (especially weapons), but for high end content you'll want to replace it eventually. |
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MaybeTrouble
join:2008-05-09
Anchorage, AK
1 edit | reply to dynodb
said by dynodb :said by MaybeTrouble :IF a lock thinks he needs healing, tell him to use all those fears he has. They're pretty much asking for it after all the crap they give us in Arena. Not my problem lock, die like the dog you are. You almost never want to fear in a raid. As often as not it ends up aggro'ing another mob and risks a wipe. The only exception is if there's no possibility of that happening. I don't play my lock much anymore (rogue is more fun), but I've had it go both ways- healers tell me to life tap because they have enough mana regen to cover it, and others tell me not to. If I do, I tell them not to heal the taps. Not my problem. If the lock wanted healing he wouldn't have messed with me in Arena. As for aggro, I was talking boss fights and again it's not my problem if his 1 kagillion undimishing return fears don't work on them. I have FD, the lock can go tank Leo and if life tap isn't enough, he needs to think about what he did earlier that day. I usually put locks in timeout, but having them do that DOT thing helps occasionally.
Locks need to remember that when raid time swings along, watching us crawl towards them trying to hit them and then die at their feet won't be so funny when I md random mobs on accident.
(please don't take what I saying seriously  ) |
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Omega
Displaced Ohioan
Premium
join:2002-07-30
Cheyenne, WY
clubs:  | Even if you are typing in jest, you severely overestimate fear.
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Whats smells like blue? |
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MaybeTrouble
join:2008-05-09
Anchorage, AK
1 edit | reply to saillaw
In all seriousness, it does seem to be a winning tactic to DOT up the opposition, and then fear them for a bit until they're either dead, or hit them with something that keeps them out of range until they're definitely dead.
Had this done to me on my rogue several times, and the only defense I've had on my hunter was when he was raid spec'd and thus had BRK for a bit. Now he's MM he's pretty much buggered when it comes to fear and DOTs.
Of course if I stealth in and get my CC going, different story. I'll usually survive the encounter, even if they get some DOTs off.
Is it priests or locks that have multiple fears tho? I haven't played either so I'm ignorant on that front. I know that one of these have a fear that isn't dispellable by my undead racial (removes fear and stuff, almost as good as a second CC trinket). And I also know at least of one them has 3 or more types of fear, so there would be no diminishing returns if used in PvP.
Obviously if I was being serious I wouldn't expect a lock to fear in a raid, unless the situation was so dire that it was necessary to do so. Maybe on elementals in Mags or something might be ok, or maybe with Winterchill trash. Otherwise I reckon it would be too dangerous for sure. And yes, I know 99.99% of bosses are immune to any CC.
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If people taste like bacon, doesn't it follow that bacon tastes like people? |
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SkellBasher
Yes Sorto, I'll take my Prozac
join:2000-10-22
North Tonawanda, NY
| reply to saillaw
This hasn't been effective for some time.
Fear has diminishing returns, and the target is immune after being affected the 3rd time.
With the increase in stam in TBC, combined with the Resiliance stat which reduces DoT damage, the tactic is nowhere close to viable. |
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MaybeTrouble
join:2008-05-09
Anchorage, AK
3 edits | reply to saillaw
Haven't seen or noticed any diminishing returns on fear that makes a difference. 3 fears is easily enough for DOTs to do their work. My hunter has full S3 apart from S2 shoulders, 11K health and will be dead from fear/dots before the 3rd fear is done unless I have a tree throwing hots and dispels on me.
Really not sure what is being diminished anyway, because it seems like I'm running around like a headless chicken as often as the lock/priest wants me too. And given the swearing I'm hearing on vent about fear - "what happened to diminishing returns, this is bullshit, I swear that guy feared my ass 6 times in a row" - I'm not so sure a classic "working as intended" has been done.
Haven't done Arena on my rogue yet, so perhaps he'll be a more resistant. He has a racial that is supposed to provide immunity to fear and a few other types of CC, so with the trinket and vanish that might make fear obsolete.
It sometimes does in BGs, but not having resilience gear and only 5K health (he's only lvl 60 atm) it's difficult to tell what will happen at lvl 70.
Anyway it's not that important I suppose, because while it can be annoying, I'm sure I have things that both my toons can do that are probably equally irritating to the opposition.
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If people taste like bacon, doesn't it follow that bacon tastes like people? |
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AB_Lazy
@dslextreme.com
| reply to ErikVKing
said by ErikVKing :My rant is that you can do it **S O L O**! ...does it matter?
You've long since been able to grind up gears (ie. see crafting) solo. If your beef is against having solo content, I'm sure there's many players (and designers) who would disagree. One of the reasons WoW is so sucessful with subscriptions is that there is content for anyone of any schedule (and any skill) to enjoy. Hell, some could say that WoW is just another reiteration of Second Life, but with a monthly subscription cost.
If you want a game that requires a group to do anything, may I recommend Final Fantasy XI?
Seriously. You want WoW to be a more "serious" MMORPG? Go look into Vanguard. They ran with the serious WoW-like angle and their player base is a joke compared to WoW. Blizzard's found their sucessful cash cow in the casual market. It would be idiotic of them to jettison 80% of their player base in order to bring the other 20% of players the "hardcore" WoW they want. |
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AB_Lazy
@dslextreme.com
| reply to MaybeTrouble
said by MaybeTrouble :You're expected to roll/dkp on PvE gear as it drops to replace PvP gear, but having PvE gear just because it's PvE gear doesn't make sense. Not if the S2 or whatever item has better PvE stats, which in same cases it does. Funny how that went. Hopefully Blizzard changes the stats around in WotLK so that the polarization between PvP and PvE gear is broader. As iLevels went up, eventually, the PvP gears replaced obtainable PvE gears for usefulness.
It's just an even bigger problem late in game as gear saturation hits ludicrous levels. To the new player, nobody is running their beginning 5-man content - there's just no reason to. If you do manage to find a group, the stat/gear expectations are so high that you won't get let in. (I remember seeing a LFG normal slabs, T4+ required, lol) New players are forced into the PvP field since they lack any other options, and the problem just grows.
I dunno. Maybe if Blizzard upgraded the introductary group content when they added in tiers/seasons, there'd be more demand. Maybe it can't be solved, I dunno. All I know, is it's gonna be ludicrous seeing LFGs Naxx, T7+ required (the instance is a 72-73 introductary "for fun" instance). Players entering late in the game need options as well. |
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ErikVKing
Erik the Viking
Premium
join:2008-06-19
Davenport, IA | reply to AB_Lazy
The gear should = effort/coordination. Plain, simple, and to the point.
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"I am Jack's utter lack of surprise." |
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AB_Lazy
@dslextreme.com
| said by ErikVKing :The gear should = effort/coordination. Plain, simple, and to the point. I really don't understand how:
X hours of PvE effort != X hours of PvP effort
I know you like to polarize the discussion by factoring in AFKers (something Blizzard has to address), but how is time spent in one area not equal to time spent in another? So long as Blizzard has your butt in the seat playing, there has to be some kind of reward/goal. A carrot on a stick, sans carrot, isn't exactly a moving proposition.
I understand you're relatively new to the raiding atmosphere and you long for the "days of yore" where PvE content ruled all, but that's dead and gone (mostly). Asking Blizzard to now close down their own gold mine in the casual market won't go anywhere. Other MMORPGs have tried addressing these markets individually, but they've all fallen on their face in terms of subscriber numbers. Stopping a "good thing" isn't in the Blizzard's own best interests. |
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ErikVKing
Erik the Viking
Premium
join:2008-06-19
Davenport, IA
 ·Mediacom
| said by AB_Lazy :said by ErikVKing :The gear should = effort/coordination. Plain, simple, and to the point. I really don't understand how: X hours of PvE effort != X hours of PvP effort I know you like to polarize the discussion by factoring in AFKers (something Blizzard has to address), but how is time spent in one area not equal to time spent in another? So long as Blizzard has your butt in the seat playing, there has to be some kind of reward/goal. A carrot on a stick, sans carrot, isn't exactly a moving proposition. I understand you're relatively new to the raiding atmosphere and you long for the "days of yore" where PvE content ruled all, but that's dead and gone (mostly). Asking Blizzard to now close down their own gold mine in the casual market won't go anywhere. Other MMORPGs have tried addressing these markets individually, but they've all fallen on their face in terms of subscriber numbers. Stopping a "good thing" isn't in the Blizzard's own best interests. The text in bold: How can you say that without smacking yourself...? How can "new to raiding..." and "days of yore" be used together when "days of yore" = far from NEW?!
Also, how can you not see what I type, or understand it? As I did with the other idiots on the otehr thread, I will close my remarks by pointing out, again, in bold: HOW CAN YOU SAY BEING ABLE TO SOLO YOUR WAY TO END-GAME EQUIVALENT GEAR IS FINE, WHEN YOU CANNOT SOLO "QUEUE" YOURSELF INTO A RAID? 'nuf said, buh-bye.
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"I am Jack's utter lack of surprise." |
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SkellBasher
Yes Sorto, I'll take my Prozac
join:2000-10-22
North Tonawanda, NY
| reply to MaybeTrouble
said by MaybeTrouble :Haven't seen or noticed any diminishing returns on fear that makes a difference. They changed the mechanic WAY back in 1.4.
Fear 1: Normal duration
Fear 2: 50% duration
Fear 3: 75% duration
Fear 4: Immune
These diminishing returns count if the next fear lands inside of 15 seconds of the last fear ending. If you're outside 15s, it resets to the top.
Anyone who does that much whining about being feared is either being tag teamed, or should lrn2trinket. |
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AB_Lazy
@dslextreme.com
| reply to ErikVKing
said by ErikVKing :The text in bold: How can you say that without smacking yourself...? How can "new to raiding..." and "days of yore" be used together when "days of yore" = far from NEW?! Interesting way to derail a statement. In your previous thread, you comment about things being better in pre-TBC, and that you're taking a more active raiding position now in TBC. It seems that one of your main complaints is that the game/system is not like it was pre-TBC - when PvE gear was the end-all-be-all of gear acquisition. While you may find that better, many of the new subscribers (and developer focus) would disagree.
said by ErikVKing :HOW CAN YOU SAY BEING ABLE TO SOLO YOUR WAY TO END-GAME EQUIVALENT GEAR IS FINE, WHEN YOU CANNOT SOLO "QUEUE" YOURSELF INTO A RAID? Why so serious?
Show me a Sunwell raid running members decked with S1/2 weapons/armor/etc. and I'll agree. Until then, both raiders and PvPers are parking their ass plunking down "effort time". I really don't see anything wrong with both parties getting rewards.
I have a question for you then. If PvE and PvP gear were kept seperate (ie. PvE gear barred from BG/Arenas and PvP gear barred from raid instances), would that float your boat? I'm just curious with your opinion on this one. |
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Dissembled
join:2008-01-23
Indianapolis, IN | reply to saillaw
How did this thread get hijacked into the tired old arguement of PVE vs PVP gear?
I was having fun pissing people off and bashing locks. |
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Gork
Ou812ic
join:2001-10-06
Juneau, AK
 ·magicjack.com
| reply to saillaw
heh
In kara and 5mans (all I've done post expansion) I don't EXPECT heals when I lifetap but by damn if I don't APPRECIATE them! And I'll be the first to commend the healer on my DPS... The only way I have to replenish my life is drain life and it does meh damage and meh heal amount. Heck, sometimes those HoTs slow my dps down 'cuz I spend MORE time lifetapping than I need to to keep up with the HoTs so I don't make the healer feel like they're wasting their heals on me.  jk of course. I feel the need to make that clear. |
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drew
Reformation
Premium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
clubs:
·wavebroadband
| reply to AB_Lazy
said by AB_Lazy :
I have a question for you then. If PvE and PvP gear were kept seperate (ie. PvE gear barred from BG/Arenas and PvP gear barred from raid instances), would that float your boat? I'm just curious with your opinion on this one. Hell yes. |
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Omega
Displaced Ohioan
Premium
join:2002-07-30
Cheyenne, WY
clubs:
·Bresnan Online
 ·Verizon Wireless B..
·Comcast
 ·AT&T Midwest
| reply to saillaw
I've pretty much gotten over all issues with PVP gear vs PVE gear, ect.
However one thing remains a problem: resilience.
I play on a PVP server. Since I am a raider (and don't PVP) I have only my PVE gear to wear. This is great when it comes to doing dailys or farming mobs. However, I am at a huge disadvantage when I am being attacked by an enemy player (one in PVP gear).
In my opinion, I feel I am being punished because I choose to go the PVE route in the game to get my gear. I worked just as hard, if not harder than PVPers, yet they have the clear advantage when it comes to world PVP.
So, I have two solutions:
1. Resilience only works in arena and battleground. PVP players will still have a slight advantage because their gear has more +stam than mine.
or
2. Give PVE gear +resilience without affecting its ilevel. By this I mean that all the stats on the piece of gear create the ilevel and resilience adds zero. Not anything game breaking, but enough to keep us viable when it comes to world pvp combat.
Both of those are pretty fair to PVEers and PVPers.
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Whats smells like blue? |
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DownLow
Nope...I Got Nothing
Premium
join:2001-04-25
Long Island | No offense implied, but shouldn't you have rolled on a PVE server then?
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Cleverly Disguised As A Responsible Adult! |
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