ErikVKing
Erik the Viking
Premium
join:2008-06-19
Davenport, IA
 ·Mediacom
| reply to drew
Re: Locks steal gold from healers.... little thieves!
said by drew  :Something that I never really got until this past week. I've always been a fan of PVE, much moreso than PVP. I love the PVE encounter, and not just for the loot. However, I know there are a significant number of people only interested in loot. Since I was home all last week doing nothing but taking care of my wife and newborn daughter, I decided to get my 67 rogue to 70. I got her to 70 in a day and a half then have been doing PVP since then. I now have both Merc Glad swords and enough honor for another piece of equipment, which will probably be my bracers. Why is it, that after a couple days of doing AV and losing EotS over and over again, I've got iLvl 136 weapons? Like I've said in other posts: It's because the PvP gear is imbalanced compared to PvE gear insofar as time and effort goes. The flames will get high again after this one, to be sure! |
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drew
Reformation
Premium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
clubs:
·wavebroadband
| And I've always agreed with you, but it was more of a philosophical agreement rather than a true understanding.
Now I know it's total and complete bullshit.
Pre-BC, and even in BC when I was raiding I did Kara so many times for a few pieces that never dropped. Granted this isn't BT/MH, but hey I did Naxx Pre-BC so I've done the hardcore stuff. |
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bicarus
I R Teh Bic
join:2004-02-03
Washington, IA
| reply to saillaw
With this. looks like Blizz is getting rid of the alchemy monopoly on the AH.
»www.wowinsider.com/2008/07/29/az···ickness/
--
Intel P4 D 940|ECS PA1 MVP Extreme|2gig DDR2|X1900XT|BFG Physx|WD 80gig|Liteon DVD/CD ROM|Infinity2 600watt ps|G15 keyb|MS generic Opt mouse|Win2KPro |
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Zyncotl
Zed X
Premium
join:2002-09-13
Wayne, MI
| reply to ErikVKing
said by ErikVKing :Like I've said in other posts: It's because the PvP gear is imbalanced compared to PvE gear insofar as time and effort goes. The flames will get high again after this one, to be sure! What? You can run Karazhan and get yourself a nice main hand PvE weapon comparable to that S2 sword for 5 minutes work or if you don't just bribe your way into a raid it might 2.5 hours to run the entire instance and have it drop for you. While you're there you may also pick up about 3-4 other epics to upgrade your character.
Yeah, PvP is unbalanced. It's harder to get gear to make you workable. |
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drew
Reformation
Premium
join:2002-07-10
Port Orchard, WA
clubs:
·wavebroadband
| buahaha.
that's so wrong it's almost not funny.
I ran Kara for 6 weeks before Light's Justice dropped for our raid. I then had to either have higher DKP or win a roll for it. Seems like a sweet system (oh wait no it isn't).
Also, »www.wowhead.com/?item=28768 iLvl 125
My merc weaps? iLvl 136. And it took 1.5 days of pvp to get both. |
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justinsoup
Premium
join:2002-03-18
Dallas, TX | reply to saillaw
Don't forget about soulstones |
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Mashiki
Balking The Enemy's Plans
join:2002-02-04
Woodstock, ON
·Bright House
·Rogers Hi-Speed
1 edit | reply to bicarus
What the...
I can go through upto 30 mana pots during a 4hr raid right now, not even touching dest. pots. All fights will be 3mins or less or something or are they just being stupid or will we all have insane mana regen.
World of Meleecraft indeed.
Just to toss in anything, I really don't have faith that blizz will fix mana issues, or other issues with regen to get around this. It's just going to remain screwed up. |
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ErikVKing
Erik the Viking
Premium
join:2008-06-19
Davenport, IA
·Mediacom
| reply to Zyncotl
I think you and I went toe to toe on this already, and many others in that same thread agreed with me, as many have in this one.
If you have the best luck in the world, or if you have 9 other people that need none of the gear in Kara that you want, and are there to clear it for you, you won't get the same equivalent gear in PvE as in PvP in the same amount of time.
I'll dig up that old post and link it here so as not to continue a tirade here.
--
"I am Jack's utter lack of surprise." |
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Jakiel00
join:2007-12-12
Mckinney, TX
| reply to Mashiki
I really find this whole thread laughable, and unfortunatly at my fellow healers. I play a 70 Pally (Kharos, Aegwynn server, +1989 bonus healing) and I take pride in keeping everyone topped out through out the entire fight. In fact, if I am keeping up that Lock while he is lifetapping through during a boss fight, you better believe that I am going to heal him so he can continue to DPS the target down. My job during the raid is to HEAL people right? So wouldn't I heal someone through that so they can kill the target faster? don't make any sense that people would just let them go.
I don't have mana issues at all and I raid a Bunch (going into Hyjal and BT in about 2 weeks). Yeah I know you are going to say that I am a pally and shouldn't have mana issues, but I take pride in doing my part in a raid.
i.e. during the first pulls in TK, you need to have 3 mages that just spam sheep the entire pull. That means they are doing their JOB. I consider my job (yes its a game too I realize that) is to heal guys and have to trust in my own abilities and the fellow healers in my raid to do the same thing.
The same question could be made "I pulled aggro as a healer away from the tank, but since I did that, he shouldn't come pull aggro off of me". same mindset....now doesn't that sound RIDICULOUS?!?!?!?!!?!??!?!? |
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elboricua
El Subestimado
Premium
join:2001-08-12
Bronx, NY
| reply to Zyncotl
said by Zyncotl :said by ErikVKing :Like I've said in other posts: It's because the PvP gear is imbalanced compared to PvE gear insofar as time and effort goes. The flames will get high again after this one, to be sure! What? You can run Karazhan and get yourself a nice main hand PvE weapon comparable to that S2 sword for 5 minutes work or if you don't just bribe your way into a raid it might 2.5 hours to run the entire instance and have it drop for you. While you're there you may also pick up about 3-4 other epics to upgrade your character. Yeah, PvP is unbalanced. It's harder to get gear to make you workable. I am in T5 content now. I ran Kara once a week for 12 weeks with my old guild. Thats 12 prince killings and not once did he drop the mind blade. I ran EotS and AV one weekend and in 2 days had the Merciless Spell Blade. BTW the Merciless Blade is better. More spell damage, stam and spell hit. |
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AthlGrond
Premium,MVM
join:2002-04-25
Aurora, CO
·Comcast
| reply to drew
said by drew :Why is it, that after a couple days of doing AV and losing EotS over and over again, I've got iLvl 136 weapons? I have a theory about Blizzard's motivation on this:
If you fight other players then they don't need to code any new content to keep it challenging. Essentially they want to encourage PvP because it's easier for them. 
--
"You are technically correct. The best kind of correct." -Bureaucrat 1.0 |
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ender7074
join:2006-11-21
Saint Louis, MO
 ·AT&T Southeast
| reply to Jakiel00
said by Jakiel00 :I really find this whole thread laughable, and unfortunatly at my fellow healers. I play a 70 Pally (Kharos, Aegwynn server, +1989 bonus healing) and I take pride in keeping everyone topped out through out the entire fight. In fact, if I am keeping up that Lock while he is lifetapping through during a boss fight, you better believe that I am going to heal him so he can continue to DPS the target down. My job during the raid is to HEAL people right? So wouldn't I heal someone through that so they can kill the target faster? don't make any sense that people would just let them go. I don't have mana issues at all and I raid a Bunch (going into Hyjal and BT in about 2 weeks). Yeah I know you are going to say that I am a pally and shouldn't have mana issues, but I take pride in doing my part in a raid. i.e. during the first pulls in TK, you need to have 3 mages that just spam sheep the entire pull. That means they are doing their JOB. I consider my job (yes its a game too I realize that) is to heal guys and have to trust in my own abilities and the fellow healers in my raid to do the same thing. The same question could be made "I pulled aggro as a healer away from the tank, but since I did that, he shouldn't come pull aggro off of me". same mindset....now doesn't that sound RIDICULOUS?!?!?!?!!?!??!?!? QFT! |
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ErikVKing
Erik the Viking
Premium
join:2008-06-19
Davenport, IA
·Mediacom
| reply to Zyncotl
»I miss the good old days :'( (Pre-BC) ... is basically our rant. The thread started out with pre-BC talk, and spiralled to the PvP vs. PvE. I linked that so this thread could go on with the original foolish topic...
--
"I am Jack's utter lack of surprise." |
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Mashiki
Balking The Enemy's Plans
join:2002-02-04
Woodstock, ON
·Bright House
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| reply to Jakiel00
said by Jakiel00 :I really find this whole thread laughable, and unfortunatly at my fellow healers. I play a 70 Pally (Kharos, Aegwynn server, +1989 bonus healing) and I take pride in keeping everyone topped out through out the entire fight. In fact, if I am keeping up that Lock while he is lifetapping through during a boss fight, you better believe that I am going to heal him so he can continue to DPS the target down. My job during the raid is to HEAL people right? So wouldn't I heal someone through that so they can kill the target faster? don't make any sense that people would just let them go. I don't have mana issues at all and I raid a Bunch (going into Hyjal and BT in about 2 weeks). Yeah I know you are going to say that I am a pally and shouldn't have mana issues, but I take pride in doing my part in a raid. i.e. during the first pulls in TK, you need to have 3 mages that just spam sheep the entire pull. That means they are doing their JOB. I consider my job (yes its a game too I realize that) is to heal guys and have to trust in my own abilities and the fellow healers in my raid to do the same thing. The same question could be made "I pulled aggro as a healer away from the tank, but since I did that, he shouldn't come pull aggro off of me". same mindset....now doesn't that sound RIDICULOUS?!?!?!?!!?!??!?!? Personally I find the thread kinda interesting but that's just me. I haven't raid healed in nearly 8mo, I used to part time heal before we had enough back in SSC/TK and I used to swap my mage back and forth in MC/BWL/Naxx. But meh.
During bosses it's kind of a requirement. Otherwise you're simply failing your job as a healer, but you've also micromanage your mana for that fight. I've finished Hyjal and BT about two months ago, we're still gearing people for sunwell. I'm sick of both places, we still haven't seen a ToC and we've only gotten two T6rmd helms, between 2 mages, 3 rogues, and 2 druids, no warblades, and no cowls, hell not even a cursed vision. But the healers are happy!
I have consistent mana issues. But I play a mage, which means I'm sucking back pots, and pots, and more pots, oh and did I mention pots? And gems! Forget EVO, too much damn running, maybe on trash.
You really only need two mages in TK, you can get away with 1, two makes it easier three makes it cake(You can do it with none too). You simply have to kill the caster first and get the others under control. They don't have to spam sheep either, they can dps; it doesn't mean they're doing their job it means they're focusing too much on a single task instead of using the proper tools to ensure they can dps and control the mobs. The only time you'd need to spam is when it's dot'd or under a conc.
And if you're pulling off a tank as a healer...your tank sucks.  Or you healed too early, or with a HoT at the wrong time. |
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Zyncotl
Zed X
Premium
join:2002-09-13
Wayne, MI
1 edit | reply to ErikVKing
said by ErikVKing :I think you and I went toe to toe on this already, and many others in that same thread agreed with me, as many have in this one. If you have the best luck in the world, or if you have 9 other people that need none of the gear in Kara that you want, and are there to clear it for you, you won't get the same equivalent gear in PvE as in PvP in the same amount of time. I'll dig up that old post and link it here so as not to continue a tirade here. There's 10 people in WoW that need T4? Really?
PvP is guaranteed epics for xx amount of work. PvE is not guaranteed. I think it's a bit silly that they don't make PvE a little more guaranteed. It took me 6 months to get my nightslayer bracers, and it was the first drop for our guild... and that's not the end of the horror stories for raiding, I know how it goes. But for every tale of the item that never drops I've seen 2 or 3 times that many multi-epic runs, or runs where a new recruit comes in and cleans house getting 5 epics or more. Hell my priest got 6+ epics in 1 run of kara (alt). I never saw a pvp'r do that.
PvE is the lotto while PvP is a consistent paycheck.
As for mana, my priest never ran out of mana and when he did I had my free mage water. When I had to drink a mana pot I was looking on locks and other classes using pots too. Even if the locks are ripping you off who cares? Is that wow gold really going to make you happy? |
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MaybeTrouble
join:2008-05-09
Anchorage, AK
2 edits | reply to saillaw
PvP and PvE are separate games, don't think anyone can argue with that. The thing is unless you farm past raids, PvE compensates us by being interesting, as opposed to a grind.
In fact I still enjoyed Kara when we were farming it for badges. It is a matter of mindset I have to admit, if you just view each encounter as a strat it won't be that interesting. You have to use your imagination a bit, and I think this is one area of the game Blizzard could improve on.
A few cinematic cutscenes approaching and after defeating end-game relevant bosses for example.
It all depends on what you're willing to invest in the game too. Some people just prefer to think of things as a mechanical grind, even PvE. Some prefer to regard Kara as a gothic adventure, SSC as a watery underworld, Black Temple as demonic playground.. that sort of thing. Like I said, a bit of help from Blizzard in this regard wouldn't have gone amiss.
But the bottom line it would be nice if tier tokens weren't class specific and other drops were relevant to the classes in the raid. But that would go against Blizzard's policy of forcing players to rinse and repeat - lengthening the game.
If raids didn't end a Kara run with half a dozen void crystals every week, Blizzard would need to crank out expansions every 6 months, instead of every 18.
--
If people taste like bacon, doesn't it follow that bacon tastes like people? |
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NOCMan
Verizon Fios User
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Flower Mound, TX
| reply to saillaw
There's only one fight (Illhoof) that I expect heals on because I lifetap. And that's quaffing mana pots and saccing the felhunter for the mana regen.
I've been preaching that if you do not need the pet for CC or some other special purpose, sac the felhunter on bosses so the raid heals can go to other places.
Mag too, but that's because of the nova's but I start drain life once I get done clicking so the healer does not have to put the big heals on me. |
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AB_Lazy
@dslextreme.com
| reply to ErikVKing
said by ErikVKing :I think you and I went toe to toe on this already, and many others in that same thread agreed with me, as many have in this one. Depends on the battlegroup. In my battlegroup, it took 3-4 days of playing 6-8 hours a day to get my MH sword. Just say 5 if you want to count MH and OH.
So, around 24 hours /played to get just two pieces. Instead, I could've ran 4 6-hour raids and gotten a slew of other upgrades. PvP gear is considered easier because:
A.) Your aimed drop is guaranteed.
B.) You can grind PvP gear, not so much with raid clears. Even though you could've done 4 raid runs in the time it takes to fill your desired item slots, instance timers force you to spread out your time.
Everyone always loves to talk about weapons, but what about the other pieces of armor? Someone hitting a fresh honor grind for their beginner arena training suit is gonna be putting in a hell of a lot of time.
Of course, it could just be my battlegroup. Horde loses WB/AB/EotS reliably in PUG fashion, and AV is the "honor farm" with a 50/50 win-loss rate.
Damn the grind is something else though. It can range from downright fun with friends, to just monotony if I want to grind by myself. That's usually when I pull out the Haliscan outfit, and get others to play "The Three Amigos" with me in BGs.
I do hope they unscrew the PvP system of today with WotLK. Maybe then they can also separate PvE and PvP gear (and weapons) further, so this debate can die along with TBC. Locking out PvP items from PvE instances and PvE items from BGs/Arenas would be such an easy fix. |
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Jakiel00
join:2007-12-12
Mckinney, TX
| reply to Mashiki
said by Mashiki :said by Jakiel00 :I really find this whole thread laughable, and unfortunatly at my fellow healers. I play a 70 Pally (Kharos, Aegwynn server, +1989 bonus healing) and I take pride in keeping everyone topped out through out the entire fight. In fact, if I am keeping up that Lock while he is lifetapping through during a boss fight, you better believe that I am going to heal him so he can continue to DPS the target down. My job during the raid is to HEAL people right? So wouldn't I heal someone through that so they can kill the target faster? don't make any sense that people would just let them go. I don't have mana issues at all and I raid a Bunch (going into Hyjal and BT in about 2 weeks). Yeah I know you are going to say that I am a pally and shouldn't have mana issues, but I take pride in doing my part in a raid. i.e. during the first pulls in TK, you need to have 3 mages that just spam sheep the entire pull. That means they are doing their JOB. I consider my job (yes its a game too I realize that) is to heal guys and have to trust in my own abilities and the fellow healers in my raid to do the same thing. The same question could be made "I pulled aggro as a healer away from the tank, but since I did that, he shouldn't come pull aggro off of me". same mindset....now doesn't that sound RIDICULOUS?!?!?!?!!?!??!?!? Personally I find the thread kinda interesting but that's just me. I haven't raid healed in nearly 8mo, I used to part time heal before we had enough back in SSC/TK and I used to swap my mage back and forth in MC/BWL/Naxx. But meh. During bosses it's kind of a requirement. Otherwise you're simply failing your job as a healer, but you've also micromanage your mana for that fight. I've finished Hyjal and BT about two months ago, we're still gearing people for sunwell. I'm sick of both places, we still haven't seen a ToC and we've only gotten two T6rmd helms, between 2 mages, 3 rogues, and 2 druids, no warblades, and no cowls, hell not even a cursed vision. But the healers are happy! I have consistent mana issues. But I play a mage, which means I'm sucking back pots, and pots, and more pots, oh and did I mention pots? And gems! Forget EVO, too much damn running, maybe on trash. You really only need two mages in TK, you can get away with 1, two makes it easier three makes it cake(You can do it with none too). You simply have to kill the caster first and get the others under control. They don't have to spam sheep either, they can dps; it doesn't mean they're doing their job it means they're focusing too much on a single task instead of using the proper tools to ensure they can dps and control the mobs. The only time you'd need to spam is when it's dot'd or under a conc. And if you're pulling off a tank as a healer...your tank sucks. Or you healed too early, or with a HoT at the wrong time. I was being sarcastic regarding the healer pulling the aggro off the tank You are right, if I did that I would gkick my tank lol |
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KCP
join:2008-06-21
Pearl River, LA
| said by Jakiel00 ::) You are right, if I did that I would gkick my tank lol Isn't that a little drastic? I would just kick them from the raid and tell them to learn their class and job.
But I have no room to speak... has yet to raid. And now we are down to 23 members. I am about to kick out all non-70s (exception for alts) so that I can start the ball on raiding/gearing. |
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