  happylurk
@look.ca
| National park in Alaska tests hybrid bus
Not a Canadian story I realize, but extremely interesting nonetheless...
»news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080718/ap_···denali_2
quote: National park in Alaska tests hybrid bus
By MARY PEMBERTON, Associated Press WriterFri Jul 18, 6:24 AM ET
For years, visitors wanting to see Denali National Park's grizzly bears, moose, sheep and caribou have had to ride school buses that polluted the air and tranquility with their noisy, carbon dioxide-spewing diesel engines.
Now park officials are testing a new hybrid bus that promises to run cleaner, cheaper, and quieter.
The 230-horse power hybrid bus white and sporting scenic views of Denali on its sides went on an actual drive in the park Thursday. The plan is to test the hybrid this summer to determine its potential for replacing the park's 110 diesel buses.
Park managers do not allow visitors to drive their personal cars the length of the park road. Visitors board the buses near the park entrance. The 92-mile road, much of it unpaved, is the only way in and out of the nearly 6-million-acre park, home to Mount McKinley, at 20,320 feet the tallest mountain in North America.
The hybrid looking a lot like a spiffy school bus comes with a diesel engine but also has a hybrid system, said Keith Kladder, marketing manager for IC Bus of Warrenville, Ill., the manufacturer of the bus.
Production on the hybrid buses began about a year ago, Kladder said.
"The technology is just coming to market," he said.
The diesel buses emit carbon dioxide, nitrogen oxide and particulate matter into the air. The hybrids are cleaner, reducing carbon dioxide emissions by up to 40 percent, nitrogen oxide by up to 20 percent and particulate matter by up to 30 percent, according to IC Bus.
Diesel buses also are expensive to operate not a small issue considering that diesel fuel in the Denali area costs more than $5 a gallon.
When Doyon/ARAMARK, the concessioner responsible for transportation inside the park, got the park contract in 2003, it was challenged to look at new technology, including hybrids.
The hybrid system used on the bus was developed by Enova Systems, based in Torrance, Calif. It couples a diesel engine with an 80-kilowatt powertrain that incorporates a transmission, batteries and an electric motor.
The system gathers energy when the brakes are used. The batteries are charged while the bus is slowing down. That, in turn, provides additional power for acceleration, allowing the diesel engine to mostly idle while the bus increases speed.
The hybrid bus needs up to 70 percent less fuel.
"The beauty is when you use less fuel you emit fewer pollutants," Kladder said.
Kladder said the hybrid application is perfect for park buses because just like school buses they make a lot of stops and starts.
If the hybrid test is a success, the park will look at replacing its diesel buses with hybrids as needed. From two to 12 buses are replaced each year. Buses in service can't be more than 10 years old.
A typical hybrid bus costs about $200,000 or twice that of the average bus, Kladder said. In time, he said the company hopes to bring the cost down with increased production.
For park managers, it's not all about money. The quieter hybrid motors will enhance the visitor experience.
One big problem with the diesel-engine buses which drive an average of 1.2 million miles per year is that they are noisy. They can be heard from a long ways off in the park.
The hybrids are quiet.
"Can you imagine the thrill of moving slowly and silently past a bear nursing its cub or wolf hunting along the road?" said Elwood Lynn, assistant superintendent of operations for Denali.
____
On the Web:
»www.icbus.com
»www.nps.gov/dena/
Now this is an application of green technology I can get behind... I wonder how much carbon would be saved if every bus in Canada went hybrid? |
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  dirtyjeffer fagetaboutit Premium join:2002-02-21 London, ON
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| said by happylurk :
Now this is an application of green technology I can get behind... I wonder how much carbon would be saved if every bus in Canada went hybrid? it is a nice feel good story, but how many municipalities can afford to replace their fleet with $200,000 buses?...one of the last batch of buses our city purchased were used buses from California for about $50,000 each...there is also the battery issue when they need to be disposed of...it is still a good idea though. -- Best Marketplace Ever: »www.cbc.ca/marketplace/speed_bumps/ |
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  Wolfie00 Premium join:2005-03-12
| Well, Toronto can, although most of the money is coming from the feds and the province. There are already a few hundred hybrid buses on the road (about 270 either on the road or on order), and the funding provides for almost 700 hybrids in the first stage of a plan to completely phase out diesels. I see them around all the time. »www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/347159
Yes, they're considerably more expensive, just like hybrid cars. They cost almost three quarters of a million, as opposed to about half a million for a plain old diesel city bus. London must have gotten itself some truly ancient pollution-belching pieces of shit if they really only paid $50K for the used buses -- not very far-sighted, IMHO, considering that the TTC is eliminating diesels as fast as economically possible. It figures, though; London city council's cheapness verges on the absurd sometimes!  -- "Until he extends his circle of compassion to include all living things, man will not himself find peace" -- Dr. Albert Schweitzer "A dog is like a child who never grows old ... always there to love and be loved" -- Aaron Katcher
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  dirtyjeffer fagetaboutit Premium join:2002-02-21 London, ON
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| i might be wrong on the price, however it was less than 50% of what brand new buses would have cost and i think they were only about 5 years old...the funny thing is they all had working air conditioning in them...as the buses were rotated through the fleet (i think there was about 20 of them), the drivers who didn't get one complained that those buses had air conditioning and it wasn't fair that they didn't have air conditioning in their bus...the city said the buses would rotate and everyone would get a "turn"...many of the drivers pissed and moaned for a few more weeks, so the city disconnected the air conditioning in it, so NO ONE could have air conditioning...stupid bus drivers. -- Best Marketplace Ever: »www.cbc.ca/marketplace/speed_bumps/ |
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  Deadpool Go Sens Go Premium join:2001-03-29 Canada
·Bell Sympatico
| reply to happylurk I was in Seattle 2 years ago and most of their buses were already hybrid's. I was very impressed.
Turns out it was a pilot as well and here are the results: »www.autobloggreen.com/2006/12/18···program/ -- Disclaimer: If I express an opinion, it is my own opinion, not that of Bell or its related companies. |
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  Wolfie00 Premium join:2005-03-12
edit: July 22nd, @01:34PM
| reply to dirtyjeffer I'm sure that you must have got the costs wrong -- FYI, the $200,000 bus in the article is not anything like a city bus -- it's a minibus built on a truck chassis, like a small school bus. A city bus costs upwards of half a million as mentioned before, and a hybrid about 40% to 50% more.
It's nice to see those results from Seattle, which brings to mind the fact that there are big differences in hybrid designs and a lot also depends on how they are driven (their biggest advantages are in congested stop-and-go traffic). TTC results haven't been as good as those in Seattle or the ones from New York City, the latter using the same hybrids as Toronto. Government incentives still remain one of the hybrid's big attractions right now for transit commissions, but the technology continues to improve.
All that said, it's still a disappointment to see a city like London investing in diesel (and trying to save money by buying old obsolete ones, too) when other transit systems are going in the opposite direction. TTC management may leave a lot to be desired in other ways, but at least it has an ambitious hybrid program and is investing in a new generation of electric streetcars.

-- "Until he extends his circle of compassion to include all living things, man will not himself find peace" -- Dr. Albert Schweitzer "A dog is like a child who never grows old ... always there to love and be loved" -- Aaron Katcher
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  theninjasqua
join:2007-09-26 Oakville, ON | reply to happylurk Oakville Transit has been running a bus for a while now that runs on hydrogen. --
-theninjasquad |
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  Wolfie00 Premium join:2005-03-12
| That's the future for sure -- zero emissions, just liquid water and water vapour. Unfortunately it's still at the experimental and small-scale pilot stage -- there are no mass-produced hydrogen fuel cell buses and probably won't be for some years yet. We may see them though long before we see fuel-cell cars, because the cost of fuel cells may be more easily amortized in fuel-hungry high-mileage buses. The key is to achieve low operating costs and provide public funding to help subsidize initial capital costs. Meanwhile, with old buses falling apart and new ones needed right away, hybrids are a reasonable stop-gap. Maybe when fuel cell buses become practical on a large scale, the TTC can unload the old hybrids on London!  -- "Until he extends his circle of compassion to include all living things, man will not himself find peace" -- Dr. Albert Schweitzer "A dog is like a child who never grows old ... always there to love and be loved" -- Aaron Katcher
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  dirtyjeffer fagetaboutit Premium join:2002-02-21 London, ON
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| reply to Wolfie00 said by Wolfie00 :I'm sure that you must have got the costs wrong -- FYI, the $200,000 bus in the article is not anything like a city bus -- it's a minibus built on a truck chassis, like a small school bus. A city bus costs upwards of half a million as mentioned before, and a hybrid about 40% to 50% more. yea, i can't remember the price, but it was significantly lower than "brand new buses"...to be quite honest, the buses were only a few years old (for some reason, 5 years comes to mind), but they looked "brand new" anyway, and were the only air conditioned city buses (although, that didn't last long). -- Best Marketplace Ever: »www.cbc.ca/marketplace/speed_bumps/ |
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 MmmPancakes
join:2007-05-29 Toronto, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Bell Sympatico
·Rogers Hi-Speed
| reply to happylurk When I read this thread, it reminded me of the time I heard about how the TTC hybrid buses are actually not all that efficient, because of battery issues apparently...
»forum.bustalk.info/viewtopic.php···bd4de225 |
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  Wolfie00 Premium join:2005-03-12
| I read about that before. For once I agree with Giambrione who called hybrids a "transitional technology" -- it's the best we can do for now, but well worth doing. The battery issues, as stated in the article, are covered by warranty and will be sorted out in time at no cost to the TTC. Mileage improvements will be seen as more buses are used in downtown congestion where they are more efficient, as shown in New York where the same buses get up to three times the savings that the TTC has shown so far. -- "Until he extends his circle of compassion to include all living things, man will not himself find peace" -- Dr. Albert Schweitzer "A dog is like a child who never grows old ... always there to love and be loved" -- Aaron Katcher
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  vue666
join:2007-12-07
| Toyota has run into a supply problem with their Hybrid "Prius". It seems they can't get enough batteries...
»www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1···K0000532
»www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/16/···brid.php |
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 elwoodblues
join:2006-08-30 Toronto, ON
| reply to Wolfie00 The question I ask (and this is always the question) how much can I possibly save in fuel costs when I am spending 50% more on the vehicle?
Not only that but the buses are on the road for 20 years or more, the batteries won't last that long. Has anyone factored in the battery cost (and disposal cost on top of that).
While I appreciate the whole thing is about the "environment", when does(will? )it get cheaper to be green |
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 elwoodblues
join:2006-08-30 Toronto, ON
| reply to Wolfie00 said by Wolfie00 :I read about that before. For once I agree with Giambrione who called hybrids a "transitional technology" -- it's the best we can do for now, but well worth doing. The battery issues, as stated in the article, are covered by warranty and will be sorted out in time at no cost to the TTC. Mileage improvements will be seen as more buses are used in downtown congestion where they are more efficient, as shown in New York where the same buses get up to three times the savings that the TTC has shown so far. What downtown congestion? We have a SUBWAY, they run buses on Yonge/Church/Sherbourne/Parliment/Bay (streetcars on Spadina/Bathurst).
Thats downtown. The only real congestion comes on Yonge/Bay street in the morning/afternoon rush hours as people try to get off/on the Gardiner Expressway |
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