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amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
 ·Cox HSI
 ·magicjack.com
 ·EarthLink
| reply to mjgould
Re: Try it in a college town
said by mjgould  :I would like to see what happens if Time Warner tries to deploy caps in a college town. I'd like to see what happens if they don't. Your own example is of activities that weren't common two years ago. The infrastructure doesn't have infinite capacity. I'm ok with it being upgraded to provide for the kinds of uses you described. But, it seems reasonable for those who need it the most to pay for it.
Mark | |
mjgould
join:2006-04-30
Bowling Green, OH
·Verizon Online DSL
| The problem for us is that TW has not been spending the money for upgrades. Right now I am getting the advertised speeds which for me is 7mbps, but come August when 75% of the students come back I will be lucky to get 3mbps from my 7mbps connection from about 5PM until 4AM the next morning. | |
amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
·Cox HSI
·magicjack.com
·EarthLink
| said by mjgould :The problem for us is that TW has not been spending the money for upgrades. Right now I am getting the advertised speeds which for me is 7mbps, but come August when 75% of the students come back I will be lucky to get 3mbps from my 7mbps connection from about 5PM until 4AM the next morning. Is it reasonable to believe an ISP can deliver constant bandwidth, even if it goes unused 80% of the day? It seems like there's two ways to look at this.
1. Guarantee they can provide 7mbps any time you need it (even if that capacity sits idle 80% of the time.
2. Estimate average capacity based upon historic usage patterns.
The first choice seems like it would be very expensive. The second choice seems to correspond to what we expect with our traditional telephone service. The phone company doesn't guarantee everyone in the country can pick up their handset at the same moment and get a dial tone. Just that you will get a dial tone if the historic use holds true.
I guess there's a third choice. They just tell you "up to" speeds without any indication of how average that speed will be. I agree that's wrong.
Mark | |
mjgould
join:2006-04-30
Bowling Green, OH
·Verizon Online DSL
| Well, I had Verizon DSL for 3 years and they never had any issues providing me with the 3mbps that they claimed, regardless of whether school was in session or not. I just wish TW would not claim 7mbps, because most of the time they can't provide it. Some basic honesty on what they can provide would be great. | |
qworster
join:2001-11-25
Los Angeles, CA
·Brand X Internet
·RoadRunner Cable
·Vonage
·DSL EXTREME
·EarthLink
edit:
July 3rd, @02:58PM
| reply to amigo_boy
said by amigo_boy :said by mjgould : Is it reasonable to believe an ISP can deliver constant bandwidth, even if it goes unused 80% of the day? It seems like there's two ways to look at this. 1. Guarantee they can provide 7mbps any time you need it (even if that capacity sits idle 80% of the time. 2. Estimate average capacity based upon historic usage patterns. The first choice seems like it would be very expensive. The second choice seems to correspond to what we expect with our traditional telephone service. The phone company doesn't guarantee everyone in the country can pick up their handset at the same moment and get a dial tone. Just that you will get a dial tone if the historic use holds true. I guess there's a third choice. They just tell you "up to" speeds without any indication of how average that speed will be. I agree that's wrong. Mark YES IT IS REASONABLE! It's JUST as reasonable as:
Building roads that can handle 100,000 cars an hour, when they only actually handle these loads six hours a day.
Building an electric system that can handle a 100 megawatt load, when that load is only used four hours a day during the hottest months of the year.
Building a cable TV systen that provides 200 channels, even though 80% of the viewers watch the same 10 channels during prime time.
Building a water system that can provide high pressure for fire hydrants, even though fires rarely occur.
Building an infrastructure of sanders and snow plows that may only be used a few days a year.
Building a drainage system that might only be used every 20 years (or less) during hurricanes (New Orleans?).
Building a telephone system that can provide for 10,000 calls an hour when 1/3 of the time it only has to do 1/10th of that.
Building a public transit system that can move 50,000 people an hour when it's only used to move that many people 6 hours a day.
Shall I continue? I can probably come up with another 50 or 75 if you want.
Whether Time Warner likes it or not, the Internet is now a public utility that's EVEN MORE IMPORTANT then their legacy product, cable TV. In many cases you can't apply for a job or order medicine or make reliable long distance phone calls without it. It's up to them to make the necessary upgrades as needed to serve their customers! One thing that they have going for them is that unlike electricity, roads or water systems, bandwidth costs PRACTICALLY NOTHING to produce! | |
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| "Whether Time Warner likes it or not, the Internet is now a public utility that's EVEN MORE IMPORTANT then their legacy product, cable TV. In many cases you can't apply for a job or order medicine or make reliable long distance phone calls without it."
Yes you can, yes you can, yes you can... geez. Can we can the drama for a moment? There isn't anything you NEED the internet for that you can still do in other ways or in person.
The internet is NOT a "public utility"... It may be important to YOU or to SOME, but still not to the masses.
You mentioned medicine, are you high? Who is the population group that orders the most medicine? And of that group, how many have the internet? Seniors.
In many cases you can't make a "reliable" long distance phone call with out it? WOW! Are you maad? I can't say for certain that any call placed over the internet is going to be more reliable than a traditional POTS line.
.. apply for a job? There is some gray area, however, you can always use the public library to do so. SOME employers who take internet only apps have kiosks in their buildings for people to use to apply. And, so what? Instead of walking a paper app in, you have to walk in and apply on a computer, or walk in to a library.
I won't even go into the other items you mention because they are simply too ridiculous to bother. Your ideas of reality are plain flat skewed and well over dramatized.
The internet is STILL hardly a public utility. Just because SOME businesses chose to do things so-called exclusive, which many still don't, on the internet, doesn't make it a utility. Just because there is a surcharge to book an airline ticket imposed by a company doesn't make the internet a utility. And, just because to SOME, they chose to utilize the internet 100% as much as possible - still does not make it a "utility"...
Personally, while I think the internet is a very very great thing, it's also making people lazy, thus making them "dependent" and, quite honestly, stupid and incapable of functioning in the real world. Just as with cell phones making people "more important" these days, when they aren't, people forgot how to simply live with out these things.
For SOME, things like the internet and cell phones are very important tool.. but still, remove them, and life can STILL go on easily. It's called planning. | |
amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
·Cox HSI
·magicjack.com
·EarthLink
| reply to qworster
said by qworster :Building roads that can handle 100,000 cars an hour, when they only actually handle these loads six hours a day. But, that's expensive. Idle capacity is a perishable product (if time is money). If the six-hour-a-day users want to pay for it, I support them 100%.
Mark | |
pspcrazy
join:2008-02-06
San Diego, CA | reply to qworster
Nice false analogy bro, if you noticed those are all PHYSICAL things. We're talking about bandwidth people something that can travel by light. It's structure can still be expanded WITHOUT physical limitations so all your analogies are hogwash. | |
HotRodFoto
Premium
join:2003-04-19
Denver, CO
| reply to fiberguy
said by fiberguy :The internet is NOT a "public utility"... It may be important to YOU or to SOME, but still not to the masses. I don't know what masses yer thinking of, but obviously you must have one in your head if you're thinking like that! Everything these days is driven via the internet. The whole backbone of the economy is, people bank ever day online, research things which are needed for school classes, college courses are taken online, people tele-commute for work. Business is done and billions of deals exchanged via net meeting, email, online account transfers, and VPN's. The times have changed, and this is how the country is run these days. One only needs to look at Google stock prices to see that. You say remove these things and life goes on...can it? Not for me in line of work. | |
BF69
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN
| reply to fiberguy
said by fiberguy : The internet is NOT a "public utility"... It may be important to YOU or to SOME, but still not to the masses. You know if it was 100 years ago the same arguments would be made about electricity, telephone and indoor plumbing. | |
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| reply to HotRodFoto
The whole back bone of our economy is not the internet. Ever heard of housing? Sheesh.. come on now. Your entire message has done nothing to convince me that the internet is a "utility".. the very nature of "the internet" itself says it is not a utility. Any idea what the "internet" is?
People bank on line. Great! They check their balances to see if checks clear and maybe move money. You can't still pick up the phone and do it? (Again, convenience)
Research for school. Again, go to the library. They have computers there and the lines are most likely better than you will get at home. Not to mention, last time I checked, books still exist.
College courses are still offered in the classroom. Online courses are often offered for conveneince. Yes, I know only SOME courses are offered ONLY online - that's not enough to make the internet a utility. That was a stupid decision on the colleges part.
Some people tele-commute - you're right. I'm one of them. Still, it's not a requirement nor do enough people do it to consider it a "utility"...
"Business is done and billions of deals exchanged via net meeting, email, online account transfers, and VPN's." So, so, so and so. Those are businesses and are not enough to base the internet on a "utility".. There certainly is no issue on that end of the internet. Why? Those connections are FAR more stable and.. guess what? They PAY for their ACTUAL WORTH! .. not $16.99 a month.
You said it right. A lot has changed and "not for me in line of work". You are not THE actual top of the food chain. While it's important to you, and you have integrated it in almost everything you do, that's you. And yes, many people still don't use the internet as their primary source of everything.
What you want to do it protect the internet because you, rightfully so, have found ways to make your life easier and most likely cheaper. However, that still, in my opinion, is NOT enough to make the internet, today, a utility.
You do not need the internet to sustain life as you do the phone, power, and water. The internet has improved your life, but you do not need it to "sustain" life. | |
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20 | reply to BF69
... and? | |
watice
@rr.com
| reply to qworster
just the WORST logic i've seen this year thus far.
Building roads that can handle 100,000 cars an hour, when they only actually handle these loads six hours a day.
During rush hour, at least here in nyc, all lanes slow down. Even though the highway was built to handle mass amounts of traffic, the amount of cars exceeds the available space because more people have cars today than when it was built. Sound familiar? Could the lanes be bandwidth, the nodes be highways, and the cars be.. you get the idea
Building an electric system that can handle a 100 megawatt load, when that load is only used four hours a day during the hottest months of the year.
On the hottest day in NYC in 2003, I'm sweating my balls off when I realize my UPS backup starts beeping. This was the start of a very long 2 day blackout.
Building a cable TV systen that provides 200 channels, even though 80% of the viewers watch the same 10 channels during prime time.
Guess what? IT DOESN'T WORK!!! We're switching to SDV!! We need more bandwidth!
Building a water system that can provide high pressure for fire hydrants, even though fires rarely occur.
You're right, we've built a reliable high pressure system. And fires do rarely occur. Just like bandwidth demands were lower 3 years ago. What would happen if the rate of fires shot up at the same ratio bandwidth demands did? What if every fire hydrant had to put out 2 fires @ the same time? Would we still have enough pressure?
Building an infrastructure of sanders and snow plows that may only be used a few days a year.
Tell you what, if you can get sanders and snow plows to be completly effective and clear all snow and provide a perfect road 24/7 during blizzards, I'll get you unlimited garanteed bandwidth 24/7 even with 300 other users on a node.
Building a drainage system that might only be used every 20 years (or less) during hurricanes (New Orleans?).
Drainage systems are used every day it rains, snows, etc. And they get backed up. You mentioned New Orleans, a perfect example of a not so perfect system.
Building a telephone system that can provide for 10,000 calls an hour when 1/3 of the time it only has to do 1/10th of that.
I'm assuming you're not familiar with the all too familiar "We're sorry, all circuits are busy now. Please try your call again later".
Building a public transit system that can move 50,000 people an hour when it's only used to move that many people 6 hours a day.
Public transportation system scales back during non peak hours. You ever try to get on a crowded train but you can't cause there's a bunch of people on the door, so you gotta wait for the next one? Kinda like a train CAP. Could get on the train with the sleeping smelly bum on it, but there's no QOS in that car. Luckily the train's TCP system will send another train in 3 mins. | |
BF69
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN
| reply to fiberguy
Re: Try it in a college town
said by fiberguy :... and? are you that stupid?
If people like you had their way and not spent money on getting "luxuries" like electricy, indoor plumbing and phones serivce to ALL Americans our country would be considered third world to this day.
The 3% excise tax that had been on phones for over 100 years was actually considered a LUXURY tax meant to get more money form the rich because only the rich had phones and used then to make long distance calls. Funny how things change. One day the internet wil be viewed in the same light as electricy, water and phone service. And since it will be viewed that way one day wait until that day and start accepting it NOW? | |
HotRodFoto
Premium
join:2003-04-19
Denver, CO
| reply to fiberguy
said by fiberguy :The whole back bone of our economy is not the internet. Ever heard of housing? Sheesh.. come on now. Your entire message has done nothing to convince me that the internet is a "utility".. the very nature of "the internet" itself says it is not a utility. Any idea what the "internet" is? People bank on line. Great! They check their balances to see if checks clear and maybe move money. You can't still pick up the phone and do it? (Again, convenience) Research for school. Again, go to the library. They have computers there and the lines are most likely better than you will get at home. Not to mention, last time I checked, books still exist. College courses are still offered in the classroom. Online courses are often offered for conveneince. Yes, I know only SOME courses are offered ONLY online - that's not enough to make the internet a utility. That was a stupid decision on the colleges part. Some people tele-commute - you're right. I'm one of them. Still, it's not a requirement nor do enough people do it to consider it a "utility"... "Business is done and billions of deals exchanged via net meeting, email, online account transfers, and VPN's." So, so, so and so. Those are businesses and are not enough to base the internet on a "utility".. There certainly is no issue on that end of the internet. Why? Those connections are FAR more stable and.. guess what? They PAY for their ACTUAL WORTH! .. not $16.99 a month. You said it right. A lot has changed and "not for me in line of work". You are not THE actual top of the food chain. While it's important to you, and you have integrated it in almost everything you do, that's you. And yes, many people still don't use the internet as their primary source of everything. What you want to do it protect the internet because you, rightfully so, have found ways to make your life easier and most likely cheaper. However, that still, in my opinion, is NOT enough to make the internet, today, a utility. You do not need the internet to sustain life as you do the phone, power, and water. The internet has improved your life, but you do not need it to "sustain" life. Ummmmm you can't pick up the phone and do it, at least not at my credit union...that was phased out a few years ago over security concerns. And I didn't say the whole backbone did I? However it is a BIG time integral player. My beef isn't if it is a utility or not but with your comment about about 'the masses'. Research, yes and what is that you mentioned?? Computers?!? Now where do you think those go to?? Sure they have books, but at the same time, one can't exactly access reports from MIT students can they at their local library. Why does something have to be a requirement? While you say most people don't use the internet for their primary source of everything, well what exactly classifies everything?? It is integral part of life these days, I will say that. And since when do you need a phone to sustain life?? Using your logic, you can easily walk next door and use the neighbors. Water? Sure! Power? Don't even really need that either. Does the internet sustain life?? Well it is embedded in how we do and conduct business these days, if it wasn't so important, things such as CERT wouldn't exist would it? So if the Gov't is protecting such a valuable infrastructure... »www.us-cert.gov/ and is something which is considered vital, I don't know what else ya want to have it be classified as a utility.
--
Capturing the images of Colorado
»jdebordphoto.com | |
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
edit:
July 4th, @03:30AM
| reply to BF69
Nope.. I'm not. However, I don't agree with you still.
The internet is not an important service to sustain life like phone, power, gas, or water is.
The same could have been said about Television. The internet, like television, is "information".. why isn't Cable TV a "utility"..? If you ask me, the information that comes across cable is just as important. News and information IS something that can sustain life. If the bomb is going to drop, I'd want/need to know. The internet, in my opinion, is on the same level as TV. You CAN live with out it.
The phone - a life line to emergency services.
Water - you need it to drink and be sanitary.
Electric/Gas - needed to heat and cool.
And, you keep saying "indoor plumbing".. the INDOOR plumbing is NOT the utility. The pipes in the street, however, are. And, not to mention, I still have a house that has no sewer or street pluming. I get water from my own well, and a septic tank in the back does the rest. Of course, in a city you need it.
Until and unless the government mandates certain public resources solely to the internet, which I doubt we'll see for quite some time yet, the internet still isn't a utility.
Please, name ONE thing that can ONLY be done online that is an integral part of society.
Also,.. a lot has changed in 100 years. If you really want to live in the past because it supports your view, then I'd be happy to pull many more things from 100 years ago, but I think many woman and ethnic groups would disagree. | |
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| reply to HotRodFoto
Yes, you did say "the whole backbone of.." - see your own post.
If your bank discontinues the use of phone banking, then they're in the minority. All the majors, and many small banks I know of still allow phone transactions either automated or live people.
You are right in that the internet is a big player, but, it's still not something that society MUST depend on especially in the private sector. The business side of the internet, as I said, is already using beefier and heavy duty internet services. Already running well on that end.
People have chosen to utilize the internet for a lot, yes, I agree. However, it's still not a necessity. If college students want to use the internet, the campuses have very good lines connecting them. Again, there's no need to have involvement at the campus level.
I still don't think "integral" includes chatting, gaming, email, etc. It's a convenience, yes, I agree, but you can still pick up a piece of paper and stamp and mail. You can pick up the phone and call people. You can play games with out a computer.. it's a nice thing to have and is a luxury. Many people still do not use the internet at all and live life just fine.
When do you need a phone to sustain life? Ever heard of 911? Maybe not. But, when people need medical help, the phone will save your life,.. not the internet. Even if you walk next door to use the phone, is it still the PHONE that is making a call? Please - you're really stretching here to save your side.
You ask if the internet sustains life.. you mention business. However, as I said before - business is business, and what you have in your house are two different things. People still live their lives and "conduct business" with out the internet. Bills can be paid through the mail or phone, doctors appts are set, medicine is ordered, money can be transferred, so can stock. You can order a pizza much easier over the phone than the internet. Anything that you can do in government on the internet can be done in person.
The internet REMAINS a LUXURY. You've provided nothing that can't be done outside of the internet. What you have done is stated that it makes your life easier. Does a car make it easier for you to get from point A to B? Sure.. people can still walk or take a bus, or ride a bike and do the same. Guess what, it takes more effort than the car. Cars are not utilities are they?
What it's going to take to be classified as a luxury, and I doubt it would for MANY years ahead, is where society MANDATES access to certain resources SOLELY to the internet. And even then, I think society/government is smart enough (I just thew up a little in my mouth) to determine that the internet is FAR FAR FAR away from being something to rely and trust certain vital information with as the only means of access.
Maybe down the road, but not now, and not tomorrow. This is my opinion. | |
lvlorpheus
join:2008-02-17
Eureka Springs, AR
edit:
July 4th, @05:55AM
| So let me understand your thinking here. Students that are trying to better their selves in this country that commute to college, community college or trade school should drive 30 to 50 miles to get a book or connect to the internet at their campus. Before you respond by saying they should take care of all of that before they leave the campus think a little. Where are there kids going to go. Just stay home alone. Let someone else take care of them. Load them in the car and take them from there school work for the drive.
Have you ever though about changing your name here to string-N-canGuy. fiberguy really seems to conflict with your opinions.
A lot of bill payment and things like that you have to pay a fee to call or go in person. The business side of the internet is changing traditional ways of doing things and forcing customers to use the internet or pay a fee. So people are going to be charged a fee, or use the internet, but the internet is not a necessity.
I am guessing you would say AC is a luxury?
| |
HotRodFoto
Premium
join:2003-04-19
Denver, CO
| reply to fiberguy
As said above, fees are charged now for when you have to mail in things. My Verizon bill is one of them, if I don't have it directly debited from my account, which HAD to be set up online, I pay an extra fee every month. (Incidentally I have a Business connection here at home and not a residential plan)Again you mention the phone, but 911 wasn't mandated til the 80s, and before that, say 30 years before that, not everyone even had phones. Life went along just dine didn't it? And as far as pizza goes, I do all my ordering online for that cuz it's easier. Now let's throw in a unique element here, how about those folks who are handicapped? Who can't exactly take a bus or drive a car? For them would it be a utility as it allows them to carry out life in a somewhat normal manner? Hmmm now there is an interesting concept.
The Physical Infrastructure itself--here in the US, gas pipes have provided an excellent an ideal place to put and use fiber for telecommunications...check out Wilson Communications who used to be a gigantic Gas company and is now, a telecommunications company. And what about if BPL does come about and we have the utility companies actually offering services?? Another one to think about!
--
Capturing the images of Colorado
»jdebordphoto.com | |
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