dongato17
VIP
join:2000-07-28
Atlanta, GA
| Needing more PtMP Capacity?
Who here is needing more capacity with their PtMP system? Or are current systems offering adequate capacity? What is the limiting factor here (backhaul links, cost, customers don't want/need more speed, your connection to the internet, etc.)?
I'm interested in hearing some discussion on this topic. 
-Hal
--
Harold Bledsoe
Ligowave
»www.ligowave.com |
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petecarlson
join:2004-11-06
Baltimore, MD
| Hey Hal,
We could all use more capacity. I would like to be able to sell up to 10/10 to 10 using 10MHz Assuming 2/1 over subscription we would need 20m FD or ~30m HD based on current usage on 10/10 accounts. For this to work in my market, it would have to be non-contention using polling or slots. |
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dongato17
VIP
join:2000-07-28
Atlanta, GA | I'm guessing that these are business accounts then? What's the distance for most of these types of links for your market?
-Hal |
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IntraLink
Premium,MVM
join:2002-08-14
Utah Valley
| reply to dongato17
We are using the new Motorola OFDM PtMP Canopy 400 series.
It gives us a little over 20Mbps aggregate, again with Canopy superior over the air noise tolerance.
So we sell a 15Mbps down by 5Mbps up.
But you could set it to 10 by 10.
The OFDM units handle a bit more oversubscription than the regular Canopy stuff. |
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petecarlson
join:2004-11-06
Baltimore, MD | I have been looking at this as well but I was under the impression it had not yet been released for the US market yet. How do you like it so far? |
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IntraLink
Premium,MVM
join:2002-08-14
Utah Valley | reply to dongato17
I think it has been released in the US, but you'll have to ask your distributor.
We like it, it works as advertised.
We use it just like you are thinking, for dense business areas that need more capacity. |
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petecarlson
join:2004-11-06
Baltimore, MD
| reply to dongato17
said by dongato17  :I'm guessing that these are business accounts then? What's the distance for most of these types of links for your market? -Hal For our cost structure to work, a new pop needs to be designed for business accounts. A CPE price that allows the addition of residential accounts is nice, because it helps balance out bandwidth demand, but the ability to support business accounts with SLAs is critical.
We are high density so the majority of subs would be within two or three miles. Three miles seems to be the magic number at which we can bring new subs on line at a fast enough rate to justify the cost of capital for the POP. It is also a good distance for good coverage from multiple locations. |
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petecarlson
join:2004-11-06
Baltimore, MD
edit:
June 29th, @12:29PM
| reply to IntraLink
said by IntraLink :I think it has been released in the US, but you'll have to ask your distributor. We like it, it works as advertised. We use it just like you are thinking, for dense business areas that need more capacity. Canopy says "coming soon"
»www.motorola.com/business/v/inde···b00aRCRD
I am a little concerned about DFS and how it will affect availability. Quite an expensive test if it does not work although I guess I could role out a single sector to test.
EDIT:
Tessco claims to have them... Need to check for real stock on Monday. |
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petecarlson
join:2004-11-06
Baltimore, MD
| reply to dongato17
This subject got me reading again and I realized that this DOES use 10 MHz channels! If it works close to as advertised, and is ever released into the wild in the US, It just beat out Alvarion for my next deployment.
Hal,
IMHO, this should be your target to beat. 20m HD using 10MHz. The frequency usage is key, at least for me. |
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cmaenginsb
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-19
Palmdale, CA
| reply to dongato17
Personally we don't need the bandwidth as much as we need subscribers per AP. Currently 50 subs per 802.11 AP is causing us grief because we really can't sectorize the site beyond what is there. The site is almost all residential so equipment cost is critical.
--
CCNA, Comtrain Certified Tower Climber |
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viperm
Carpe Diem
Premium
join:2002-07-09
Winchester, CA
edit:
June 29th, @01:56PM
| reply to IntraLink
What freq is this operating on?? I am guessing 5.4? I just saw a tescco price of aproix $3400 per unit?
Does this work the same as the legacy Canopy stuff 60 degreee sectors with CMM? |
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petecarlson
join:2004-11-06
Baltimore, MD
| This is 5.4 gear so lots of frequency to work with.
from what I have read, it uses 10MHz so higher power density and more room to work work around radar issues. It also has a decreased chance of seeing radar emissions or sidebands.
AP pricing seems to range from just under 3K to MSRP just under 3500. For a 360 degree pop our looking at ~12K for the APs, 1K for a CMM Micro + $100 for a 24V PS, Plus wiring, mounts, grounding etc and it is a $20,000 pop (without labor). Add 5K for a used 7200VXR, 1K for batteries and another 4K for other core stuff like the rack etc and its a $30,000 pop. CPE cost is high so it would need to be business accounts paying an average of 1k per month for speeds of 3 to 10m. Works for me if the pps is better then the current canopy gear and I can work around the DFS issues.
I have seen both 60 and 90 degree sectors on spec sheets, at times on the same spec sheet... Some of the case studies on Motos site appear to suggest that they are actually 90 degree sectors.
»www.motorola.com/staticfiles/Bus···tudy.pdf
»www.motorola.com/staticfiles/Bus···tudy.pdf
From the deployment pictures and descriptions I am going to go out on a short limb and say that the integrated APs are using a 90 degree sector. |
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dongato17
VIP
join:2000-07-28
Atlanta, GA
| reply to dongato17
Obviously it is a nice feature, but is synch required for 5.4GHz band when there is so many channels available? Also, wouldn't putting the entire cluster on the same frequency increase the impact on the subscriber base if there was a radar event? Thoughts?
Then what is the street price for the SMs for the 400 series? $900 or so? If you are selling 10/10 (or 15/5) on this system, how many of these subs would you put on one sector?
-Hal
--
Harold Bledsoe
Ligowave
»www.ligowave.com |
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petecarlson
join:2004-11-06
Baltimore, MD
| Sync is required but a CMM micro is only a grand. this has nothing to do with "so many channels".
The whole cluster wouldn't be on the same frequency. With older Canopy gear you had to reuse frequency but with the 400 series in 5.4 there would be no need to do so. In a radar event, you have 10 seconds to move during which you have 260msec to transmit. This transmit should be move to X frequency. You wouldn't want your subs roaming to another sector as a roam event would result in seconds of down time.
I am working with a $1000 street price for SMs but am assuming you could most likely buy packs for less per unit.
I am running the numbers with 10-20 subs per AP ranging from 2-2 to 10-10. If they were all 10-10 subs, I wouldn't think it would work with more then 10 subs per AP but with 10MHz in 5400 you could double up on sectors to load balance if it got that far. |
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lutful
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
 ·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to dongato17
said by dongato17 :Who here is needing more capacity with their PtMP system? I will like a good quality affordable 5Ghz "point-to-few-point" solution that is used to feed multiple 2.4Ghz (and 900Mhz) distribution nodes.
It is OK to support just 32 nodes (like Airaya WirelessGrid) but you should allow per-link bandwidth settings. |
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IntraLink
Premium,MVM
join:2002-08-14
Utah Valley
| reply to dongato17
A couple of things we have noticed about our Beta on these units (to answer some of your questions):
Hardly any DFS false positives.
In fact this platform has less problems with DFS than the regular Canopy 5GHz stuff and the Motorola PTP Orthogon radios (less false positives). And this is in our test area with four of the new Canopy 400 AP's, 2 5450AP's and 2 5750AP's directly colocated.
You can sync these with normal Canopy sync methods (CMM, CTM etc) as long as the cable run is shorter. The units actaully need a bit more power than regular Canopy though, so long runs would have to use their new power supply I would think.
Distance for full speeds will vary, but we are keeping it to around 1 mile. We have clients on it out 5-7 miles though.
They take 10Mhz of space per channel, but you can reuse channels back to back in a 4 antenna cluster, so on this we are using four AP's on 20MHz of channel space (two pairs, one pair per channel facing oppsite directions). With this pattern you could get a high density of clients, but you will have to watch your AP throughput of course.
These units will do complete non line of site NLOS at close range within a mile. Speeds drop to something like current Canopy speeds in the 5GHz as a trade off. And by NLOS I don't mean trees really, we are talking city buildings and multipath NLOS.
I think street price is more like $550 per CPE, not $1000.
We are going to continue to use it in dense city areas within a mile to service larger customers and NLOS applications. |
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aeronet
join:2002-04-05
San Juan, PR | reply to dongato17
sync is not required but is a great feature ... imagine being able to light up 6 towers, all with 4 X 90 sectors only using 2 or 3 10 mhz channels ... cellular! |
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VariableARK
join:2003-03-17
USA | reply to IntraLink
Is there any indication of what pricing will be like in 25 or 100 packs? Is motorola strictly pushing this as a high-end system? (For me high end is >$250/cpe) |
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Believer
join:2002-07-04
Baltimore, MD | I haven't seen 100 pack pricing but 25 pack pricing is about $500/SM.
--
Comtrain Certified Tower Climber |
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superdog
I Need A Drink
Premium,MVM
join:2001-07-13
Lebanon, PA
 ·WaveCrazy.Net
| said by Believer :I haven't seen 100 pack pricing but 25 pack pricing is about $500/SM. You will NEVER see me deploy that. I do not care what market you are in? (Maybe a business only setup?), you will not be in it for long. Maybe if you cut all of the telco and cable lines for 5 counties around your area and become the only viable provider......? 
I guess you could then run your business from a cell block? 
--
»www.wavecrazy.net
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