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Forums » Sandvine Jumps On 'Protocol Agnostic' Bandwagon » Fairshare hits users instead of protocols
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TK Junk Mail
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 Fairshare hits users instead of protocols

News item on Fairshare:
»www.multichannel.com/article/CA6561982.html
The FairShare system, which works with Sandvine’s network switches, allows service providers to curtail bandwidth based on subscriber-usage metrics from various sources to balance available bandwidth and resources among all subscribers.

Donnelly said FairShare has already been deployed by a North American service provider, but he declined to identify the customer.

FairShare uses technology from two companies Sandvine acquired last year, CableMatrix Technologies and Simplicita Software.
After looking at this news item and a few others, it looks like this "protocol agnostic" throttling is USER-based instead of protocol based. That is, it looks at a users total bandwidth consumption profile and throttles based on that instead of just on a specific protocol. So, Fairshare may also throttle regular downloads or uploads and not just P2P traffic that is consuming large amounts of bandwidth over long periods of time.

I wonder which North American company is the one trying this out? Comcast?
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jc100

join:2002-04-10
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Here's my thought. Users should refuse in writing to accept said changes and specifically state they do not want their history sold to third parties. While Comcast doesn't say it can prevent the collection of your information, even by opting , it opens the can of worms. First, this software I am sure is deep packet inspection. IT HAS TO LOOK AT what you download or for certain protocols to determine it's p2p. (Invasion of privacy). Second, I am sure it tracks your history, of which gets sold. Seriously, I would like to see a pack of teething lawyers pick up this case and sue the pants off Comcast. I think it's a matter of time before this does happen, too.


TK Junk Mail
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edit:
May 19th, @11:16AM

said by jc100 See Profile :

First, this software I am sure is deep packet inspection. IT HAS TO LOOK AT what you download or for certain protocols to determine it's p2p. (Invasion of privacy).
Actually, the whole purpose of a "protocol agnostic" system is so that it doesn't have to do deep packet inspection. All they need is info on the IP pairs and then count packets.

The real question is how do they then throttle the traffic after identifying whose packets need throttling. The easiest way would be to throttle down the transfer speed at the CMTS for those users whose traffic is staying at the highest rates for lengthy periods of time.

Throwing resets into the stream would be a way that will still get people upset about forging packets.
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en102
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Yup - this will be interesting

Throttle by user bandwidth for long periods of time may not be a good idea either.
Eg. I'm on a 3Mbps connection and I want to d/l Fedora Core DVD ISO as well as some other ISO's. A reset would just tick me off.

Why not look at the overall traffic crossing the node, and when its nearing capacity, throttle from the top usage down until its at a supportable level.
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TK Junk Mail
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said by en102 See Profile :

Yup - this will be interesting

Throttle by user bandwidth for long periods of time may not be a good idea either.
Eg. I'm on a 3Mbps connection and I want to d/l Fedora Core DVD ISO as well as some other ISO's. A reset would just tick me off.

Why not look at the overall traffic crossing the node, and when its nearing capacity, throttle from the top usage down until its at a supportable level.
I think we are saying the same thing. Throttle at the CMTS, but NOT with resets. Just change the profile so that the SPEED of the connection is lowered.
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halfband
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edit:
May 19th, @01:20PM

reply to TK Junk Mail
said by TK Junk Mail :

The easiest way would be to throttle down the transfer speed at the CMTS for those users whose traffic is staying at the highest rates for lengthy periods of time.
Isn't that similar to what the satellite guys do now, throttle a high volume user? They refer to it as FAP right?
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jc100

join:2002-04-10
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reply to en102
I've got a 10 times better idea. Why don't ISPS, instead of looking for ways to salvage their outdated systems, look / invest in better technologies? For all the money they spend lobbying and dodging this responsibility, think of how much could have been accomplished. I'd be willing to give credit to a company who at least re-invests the 10s of millions spent lining politicians pockets and puts it to use on a step by step upgrade. In this respect, if said company redirected their efforts and upgraded towns one at a time, people would be far less critical. However, this seems not to be the case or their interest. Odds are, these same ISPS who are looking into these technologies, will be the same ones in ten years moaning how they were given an unfair deal to shareholders. To this I would reply, innovation and failing to keep up with growth will be the downfall of many companies to come.


TK Junk Mail
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reply to halfband
said by halfband See Profile :

Isn't that similar to what the satellite guys do now, throttle a high volume user? They refer to it as FAP right?
Yes, I believe it is the same idea. Though the way I read Fairshare is that it is more dynamic than a satellite FAP system in that it will be applied and then removed real time and much more quickly and for a very limited period of time - maybe for just the length of a download or upload.
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TScheisskopf
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reply to jc100
You said the dirtiest word in the business lexicon: "invest".

It's only dirty in context. "Invest" is a great word if you are gonna plow some of your 401K money into their stocks, but start talking about infrastructure investment and Wall Street Analysts and stockholders retire to the fainting bench with a bad case of the vapors.

Of course, "investment" of company capital in lobbying Washington for more H1-B visas is acceptable, great and will make your sheets whiter and brighter. But ghod forbid you invest in your physical plant, thus creating jobs and (OH NOOoooo!) raising wages.

It's the new world of half-capitalism: their half, making lots of money, is just sublime. The other half, capital investment by business as an engine that drives the overall economy, creates jobs and "the rising tide that lifts all boats"? Well, we just cannot be having that. Somewhere, someone might slip into Caviar Deficiency Syndrome. Them guys spent a lot of money on their Ivory Caviar Spoons and come hell or high water, they are gonna use them.


en102
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Exaclty... the only way that companys will 'invest' or want to increase CAPEX is if they

a) Have to (i.e. competition is forcing them to) in which its an all out war (i.e. Cable vs. FiOS in many areas)
b) Have another revenue stream to tap into from CAPEX (in which cost can be recouped from new LOB/revenue stream eg. cable selling HSI + VoIP)
c) Legally required to (which passes cost to consumer)

(basically what you said above)... there are times when the economy is in the pits, where government will 'help' out these 'poor' companies to kick start the economy again.
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funchords
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edit:
May 19th, @02:01PM

reply to TK Junk Mail
said by TK Junk Mail See Profile :

The real question is how do they then throttle the traffic after identifying whose packets need throttling. The easiest way would be to throttle down the transfer speed at the CMTS for those users whose traffic is staying at the highest rates for lengthy periods of time.

Throwing resets into the stream would be a way that will still get people upset about forging packets.
You've nailed it. Then why do this at all? The CMTS already knows the congestion on my node. Why does it have to talk to a Sandvine box 20 miles away?

So instead of discriminating between one protocol or another, we're discriminating between the first megabyte of the hour versus the 101st? In a service that is sold in a manner that makes no difference between the two, how is this solution any better?

We don't need anything that doesn't already exist in the Internet standards.

Tom Donnelly -- why do your customers demand secrecy? What are they afraid of? As FCC Chairman Kevin Martin said, "When they have reasonable network practices, they should disclose those and make those public."
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Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
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funchords
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reply to TK Junk Mail
said by TK Junk Mail See Profile :

said by halfband See Profile :

Isn't that similar to what the satellite guys do now, throttle a high volume user? They refer to it as FAP right?
Yes, I believe it is the same idea. Though the way I read Fairshare is that it is more dynamic than a satellite FAP system in that it will be applied and then removed real time and much more quickly and for a very limited period of time - maybe for just the length of a download or upload.
Which they already have today, too. This is how Camiant manages a product marketed as "Power Preview" by some and "Power Boost" by others.
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Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...

openbox9

join:2004-01-26
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reply to TScheisskopf
Read a few 10-K filings and you'll see that billions are being invested in infrastructure.

Cablevision: »yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/dis···8-013859
Capital expenditures for our businesses were $781.3 million, $885.8 million and $768.7 million, in 2007, 2006 and 2005, respectively, and primarily include payments for consumer premises equipment, such as new digital video cable boxes and modems, as well as infrastructure and capital expenditures related to our cable and Lightpath telecommunications networks
Comcast: »yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/dis···8-034239
an increase in Cable segment capital expenditures of 41.2% to approximately $6.0 billion, primarily as a result of (i) the installation of advanced set-top boxes, modems and other equipment associated with the increase in subscribers to our digital video, high-speed Internet and digital phone services; (ii) network improvements to handle the growth in subscribers and to provide service improvements and enhancements
Charter: »yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/dis···8-000004
Total capital expenditures for the years ended December 31, 2007, 2006, and 2005 were approximately $1.2 billion, $1.1 billion, and $1.1 billion, respectively.
AT&T: »yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/dis···8-000012
$17,717[M] in construction and capital expenditures
Verizon: »yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/dis···8-042027
We continue to make significant capital expenditures to meet the demand for communications services and to further improve such services. Capital spending for Wireline was $10,956 million in 2007, $10,259 million in 2006 and $8,267 million in 2005. Capital spending for Domestic Wireless was $6,503 million in 2007, $6,618 million in 2006 and $6,484 million in 2005.


espaeth
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reply to TK Junk Mail
said by TK Junk Mail See Profile :

Throwing resets into the stream would be a way that will still get people upset about forging packets.
The TCP reset trick is limited to a small group of applications that can gracefully deal with a lost connection and can still assemble working data at the end of the transfer. P2P apps do this very well by not strongly relying on any one particular connection and CRC checking the received file to ensure a valid copy was reached.

The alternative is a solution like Packeteer's traffic shaping appliances. Network operators are typically slow to adopt this type of solution because it needs to sit in the middle of the data path to do its job. That means inserting a device that's maybe engineered for 99.9% uptime in between your carrier-grade routing hardware that's engineered to deliver 99.999%. This also means a massive amount of hardware needs to be added into the network -- where a single Sandvine P2P appliance could probably be used per region by just aggregating several SPAN sessions to it, with a traffic shaping solution having to hit every transversed link you can bet the deployment costs are going to be huge.

I've skimmed through the Cisco CMTS config guides and I don't see any obvious way to implement equal division traffic shaping without resorting to a 3rd party box.


funchords
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said by espaeth See Profile :

I've skimmed through the Cisco CMTS config guides and I don't see any obvious way to implement equal division traffic shaping without resorting to a 3rd party box.
Why would you want to? Every modem is already configured to limit uploads. The customers' traffic is already shaped.

You only need to shape it again if you've oversold the bandwidth beyond all reasonable ability to deliver it.
Otherwise, any congestion that would occur would be momentary and you don't need an elaborate solution for that!
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Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...


funchords
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reply to espaeth
said by espaeth See Profile :

The TCP reset trick is limited to a small group of applications that can gracefully deal with a lost connection and can still assemble working data at the end of the transfer. P2P apps do this very well by not strongly relying on any one particular connection and CRC checking the received file to ensure a valid copy was reached.
Yeah, which is why I couldn't upload any of my original content for three straight months, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Sure, what you say "works" for pirated copies of today's popular movies and music. ("Works," as long as you accept forgery and packet injection from the middle of the network as a good thing -- which nobody does.) Ironically, that method broke the P2P network for legitimate uses!

Repeating the same mistake twice is beyond dumb.
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Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...


funchords
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reply to openbox9
In Telcos, AT&T spent $17 Bn and Verizon $10 Bn. Telcos aren't doing MITM attacks against their users who are simply using the bandwidth that they bought.

The top spender in Cable was Comcast with $6 Bn and the rest much less. The MSOs offer bigger packages than TelCos but then throttle, reset, kick and scream if you use it.

The data seems to be working against you.
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espaeth
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reply to funchords
said by funchords See Profile :

Why would you want to? Every modem is already configured to limit uploads. The customers' traffic is already shaped.

You only need to shape it again if you've oversold the bandwidth beyond all reasonable ability to deliver it.
That's a very narrow view of the situation; you're assuming continuous data transfer which is atypical in a world of burst traffic.

If I'm going to upload a movie clip to my website, my amount of data being transfered is already determined by the size of the clip. The only question is really how long will I be on the network transferring said clip. By bumping access speeds in that scenario from say, 768k to 2mbps, the time I spend on the network uploading my content is reduced by more than 50%. In a statistically muxed network that means that because my transfer finishes sooner, it will be less likely that I'll be consuming upload resources when my neighbor goes to upload his content.

Continuous data transfers obviously change the situation because the "getting you off the network faster" logic doesn't apply. That's why elaborate systems are necessary - to balance out burst and continuous network consumption.


funchords
Robb
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said by espaeth See Profile :

said by funchords See Profile :

Why would you want to? Every modem is already configured to limit uploads. The customers' traffic is already shaped.

You only need to shape it again if you've oversold the bandwidth beyond all reasonable ability to deliver it.
That's a very narrow view of the situation; you're assuming continuous data transfer which is atypical in a world of burst traffic.
You know, the industry is the same some that complains that somewhere between a third to 95% of all internet traffic is P2P file sharing -- aka Continuous Data Transfer.

If it's a world of burst traffic, someone forgot to tell the world.
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HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...


espaeth
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reply to funchords
said by funchords See Profile :

Yeah, which is why I couldn't upload any of my original content for three straight months, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
...using one specific protocol.

You couldn't upload that content to a service like Rapidshare or MegaUpload? You couldn't upload it to your Comcast personal web page, or other 3rd party web/ftp hosting provider? You couldn't post the music files in a Usenet newsgroup dedicated to music content?

If you had done any of those things you could link to the content via a social networking site, a music forum, or even your own personal web page that would be indexed by Google so that when someone typed in "Babershop quartet" as a search they would not only be provided links to the files but also have descriptive text to define what the files are and why they should be interested in grabbing them.

said by funchords See Profile :

Repeating the same mistake twice is beyond dumb.
Perhaps you misunderstood my statement, I said that TCP resets wouldn't work in a protocol agnostic solution because the method cannot be used safely with most other protocols.
Forums » Sandvine Jumps On 'Protocol Agnostic' BandwagonPut the DPI makers out of business? »
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