verolom
join:2002-03-23
Eatontown, NJ | Clue
Here's in idea, keep the copper loop to power the ONT. |
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hayabusa3303
Over 200 mph
Premium
join:2005-06-29
clubs:
 ·RoadRunner Cable
 ·QuantumVoice
·ViaTalk
·Vonage
| said by verolom  :Here's in idea, keep the copper loop to power the ONT. Could be true but, i dont know what the amp pull is on the ONT, copper might not be big enough(awg wise) to support the amp load for a long time. |
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bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Covington, LA | reply to verolom
Easier said than engineered. |
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cornelius785
join:2006-10-26
Worcester, MA | i agree. those phone lines aren't meant to supply power. i think supplying power over phonelines could be dangerous and could degrade other's quality of phone service. |
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verolom
join:2002-03-23
Eatontown, NJ
·Comcast
edit:
April 1st, @08:34PM
| So most dwellings have two loops, each is 24AWG or thicker. This gauge can safely carry what, maybe 500mA? So with two loops on -48V at 1A we have 48W of usable DC power. If the damn ONT consumes much more, then Al Gore will have much bigger issues with it than replacing lead-acid batteries every 5 years by Joe and Jane Doe. 
We are talking DC power, already provided on these loops to power offhook phones. For the ONT, power supply filters can be put in place (capacitors) so that the ONTs do not interfere with DSL or POTS lines in the same cable. |
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Pathfinder
Dazed Confused
Premium
join:2000-03-26
Mount Vernon, NY | reply to verolom
The fiber network is replacing the copper network. Why would Verizon wish to maintain 2 different plants?
The copper network is a bear to maintain. |
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bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Covington, LA
| reply to verolom
'most dwellings have two loops, each is 24AWG or thicker'
Correction: most dwellings may have two loops, each maybe is 24AWG or thicker.
DC doesn't work that way. It doesn't run like AC which is why Westinghouse won and Edison lost when it came to standardization. You can't transmit DC long distances effectively unless you have high gauge wiring and enough of a step-up to reduce voltage drop. |
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bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Covington, LA | reply to verolom
And I think you mean diode and not capacitor. |
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Tzale
Ron Paul - No Bailout Conservative
Premium
join:2004-01-06
NJ, USA
 ·Verizon FIOS
·Optimum Online
| reply to verolom
said by verolom :Here's in idea, keep the copper loop to power the ONT. Bad idea... Verizon wants to get rid of copper and sell it off. They don't want to have to maintain a copper infrastructure.. One of the main positives of switching to a fiber optic last mile solution is that it is totally passive between the CO and the ONT... Thus, a lot of the maintenance problems in the past can be eliminated, saving a ton of money.
-Tzale
--
Neoconservatives (G.W.B) are not true conservatives. A conservative believes in defending the Constitution. First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. - RON PAUL 2008 »www.usconstitution.net/const.html
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shdesigns
Powered By Infinite Improbabilty Drive
Premium
join:2000-12-01
Stone Mountain, GA
 ·Atlantic Nexus
| reply to bogey780
DC transmits better than AC. There are now several DC high-V power lines. They use DC because you don't get the reactive loss of the lines.
The problem with DC on mains power is you can not step it up or down. Edison had to run everything on one voltage because he could not step it up or down. Westinghouse (Tesla) could step up the voltage for lower losses, then step down locally.
As far as the local loop, I have worked with devices powered over 24GA wire. For a device that used about 8W, at 24 volts, the best we could do was about 700' on a single pair and 1000' on 2 pair.
--
Scott Henion
Embedded Systems Consultant, shenion on #ATU @irc.freenode.net
SHDesigns home |
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patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
| reply to verolom
here is the math, lets assume 90v, since thats what a telephone rings at.
90 volts
0.0842 ohms per meter for 24 gauge
60000 feet, FIOS uses BPON, 12 mile limit from central office
90*(90/((60000/3)*0.0842))=4.8 watts
20000feet
90*(90/((20000/3)*0.0842))=14.4 watts
heck, I dont know how RF noise friendly this is, but if we use 2 wires, we can use earth return, and get 2 times what is there, add a 2nd pair, same thing
»fios ont power req
18watts with TV+internet+phone running (not on emergency power), emergency power will be less
so yes its feasible, you'll probably need a new ONT tho, I dont think the current ONTs are as optimized as they could be when running on emergency power, so I dont think it would be as simple as plug battery pigtail of BBU into adapter and 2 screw terminals on the other end of adapter. |
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verolom
join:2002-03-23
Eatontown, NJ | Thank you. Probably the ONTs run on 12V or 6V (additionally downconverted to 5V) so some power conversion and loss will occur. |
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verolom
join:2002-03-23
Eatontown, NJ | reply to Tzale
My point was that if there is a will, there is a way. It was not that there is a will or any regulation from the gov't to do this. |
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bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Covington, LA
| reply to shdesigns
Thanks for the info on HVDC.
The way I took it the loss and inability to step effectively is what killed DC because placing power plants locally killed the idea for most Americans. While AC could be transmitted at high voltage and stepped down to low voltage locally.
Either way, that's why I liked BellSouth's FTTC engineering. It used 22ga cabling to power 130VDC systems. I could see an eventual move to FTTH from there could possibly allow for telco provided power to the house (which was within 1kft always). |
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xsiddalx
join:2005-03-11
Chicago, IL
·AT&T Yahoo
·AT&T DSL Service
| reply to Pathfinder
said by Pathfinder :The fiber network is replacing the copper network. Why would Verizon wish to maintain 2 different plants? The copper network is a bear to maintain. How so? |
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xsiddalx
join:2005-03-11
Chicago, IL
·AT&T Yahoo
·AT&T DSL Service
| reply to Tzale
said by Tzale :said by verolom :Here's in idea, keep the copper loop to power the ONT. Bad idea... Verizon wants to get rid of copper and sell it off. They don't want to have to maintain a copper infrastructure.. One of the main positives of switching to a fiber optic last mile solution is that it is totally passive between the CO and the ONT... Thus, a lot of the maintenance problems in the past can be eliminated, saving a ton of money. -Tzale You fail to acknowledge that maintaining a copper loop requires Verizon to offer the loop as an unbundled element to competitive local providers on a wholesale basis.
The maintenance savings are elimination of local competition.
»www.techlawjournal.com/topstorie···1215.asp
Passive electronics have been around at least 15 years.
Passive electronics do not equal passive maintenance.
I call bullshit.
If the fiber infrastructure is providing services and customer prem batteries are providing the backup, what maintenance costs are there to leave the copper connected to the customer premises? |
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Pathfinder
Dazed Confused
Premium
join:2000-03-26
Mount Vernon, NY
·Verizon Online DSL
| And what of a cable failure or a tree taking a cable down?
And of the cost of the pressure needed to keep moisture out of the cable? Squirrels, rats, ice?
I know that the fiber will be also be effected by some of this but now 2 crews have to go out to fix it.
Splicing a few fibers is also a lot less time consuming than boarding and splicing a 2400 pair cable.
It is fact. Fiber is easier to maintain. |
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xsiddalx
join:2005-03-11
Chicago, IL
·AT&T Yahoo
·AT&T DSL Service
| said by Pathfinder :And what of a cable failure or a tree taking a cable down? And of the cost of the pressure needed to keep moisture out of the cable? Squirrels, rats, ice? I know that the fiber will be also be effected by some of this but now 2 crews have to go out to fix it. Splicing a few fibers is also a lot less time consuming than boarding and splicing a 2400 pair cable. It is fact. Fiber is easier to maintain. Not sure what you are saying.
Trees can take fiber down (for fun search for bees and fiber outage). Rodents chew through things, Fibber is certainly easier 
Why are two crews needed? Sounds doubly expenpensive to maintain!
Yet splicing a fiber is cheaper at lesser cable bundles.
Fiber rocks, but it ain't cheaper...fiber has it's issues (moisture related as well), but I agree it is where the network provider should head. I don't think there is ANY network provider who would disagree or build otherwise... |
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Answer Guy
join:2006-07-28
Grass Lake, MI
 ·Alltel Axess
| reply to xsiddalx
If you ever get a chance to read documents on proving in an FTTP network from a cost savings standpoint, you should browse the numbers as it makes for some interesting reading. With the rising cost of copper, it makes no sense to maintain two separate cable networks to support battery backups. In fact, that was one of the largest hurdles during the early FTTP deployments. They tried to power units from offices in the late 90's and found it to be to costly.
How many people here still have a corded phone in their home for use during power outages? Most people I know use cordless phones and are thus rendered useless in a power outage situation anyway. |
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Answer Guy
join:2006-07-28
Grass Lake, MI
·Alltel Axess
| reply to xsiddalx
Training two sets of techs and outfitting them with different equipment is costly. The huge cost of copper cable materials puts it in a league all by itself when you compare it to fiber. A 100 pair copper costs 8X the cost of a 96 fiber cable in materials. With copper going up every day, this factor will only increase.
Also, Verizon is making a point of burying the fiber in more areas and avoiding aerial when possible. This puts the cable in less danger of being damaged.
If you were to rebuild an entire office from ground zero, fiber is cheaper to build. But, it is also cheaper to maintain and easier to troubleshoot problems than copper. |
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