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 Noah VailSon made my AvatarPremium
join:2004-12-10
Lorton, VA
kudos:1
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| reply to espaeth
Re-Re-read what Comcast posted. said by espaeth:Re-read what Comcast posted. They didn't state they were going to stop managing their network, they stated they were going to be protocol agnostic in their management. (ie, pick on everyone, not just BT) And here they defined agnostic as open and non-discriminatory.
""This new architecture would enable many new and emerging applications and will be based upon an open, non-discriminatory framework ... so we need to have an architecture that can support it with techniques that work over all networks," said (Tony) Werner. (Comcast Cable's Chief Technology Officer)"
Non-discriminatory means NO discrimination.
That means no prioritizing, throttling, packet forging, packet injection, or anything else.
Since you can not make an alteration to the network traffic streams without discrimination (ie:examination and evaluation), Comcast is promising to leave the network traffic fully unaltered.
To bring non-discrimination to practice would involve walking across the net-op center floor and powering off the Sandvine equipment.
Comcast says it may take up to 9 months to accomplish this.
So the Comcast Net-Op manager gets up from his chair. He takes one step. Then he takes another step. He breaths in. He breaths out. Skip 9 months. He reaches out with his right hand, index finger extended.... He depresses the button marked power... And the network upgrade is completed.
Hey Comcast customers. Is this what your service calls are like?
NV | |
 espaethDigital PlumberPremium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
kudos:2
·Clear Wireless
| said by Noah Vail:Non-discriminatory means NO discrimination. That means no prioritizing, throttling, packet forging, packet injection, or anything else. Since you can not make an alteration to the network traffic streams without discrimination (ie:examination and evaluation), Comcast is promising to leave the network traffic fully unaltered. Uhh.. no. Queue the Sesame Street "Some of these things are not like the others" music. Throttling and prioritization do not modify traffic, and will still very much be a part of any network's traffic management strategy. Per the press release:
"This means that we will have to rapidly reconfigure our network management systems, but the outcome will be a traffic management technique that is more appropriate for today's emerging Internet trends. We have been discussing this migration and its effects with leaders in the Internet community for the last several months, and we will refine, adjust, and publish the technique based upon feedback and initial trial results," said Tony Werner, Comcast Cable's Chief Technology Officer. said by Noah Vail:To bring non-discrimination to practice would involve walking across the net-op center floor and powering off the Sandvine equipment. Just curious, in your world does the equipment room have a big switch labeled "Internet" that should always remain in the "ON" position? | | |
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| said by espaeth:Just curious, in your world does the equipment room have a big switch labeled "Internet" that should always remain in the "ON" position? Why Yes it does! Have you seen it too?  | |
 funchordsHelloPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:5
1 edit | reply to espaeth
Comcast should only prioritize according to approved "Internet Standard" RFCs. Any other behavior is not Network Neutral.
Back in the ...-.- day, the rule was "First In, First Out." No message, except for those of the government, would get precedence.
These days, we do have Standards that allow prioritization, but the en-route transit providers do not have carte blanche to prioritize them any way that they want to.
Edit: strikethrough my obviously overbroad statement
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
FCC Public Hearing on the Future of the Internet - Thursday, April 17th - Stanford Univ., Calif. | |
espaethDigital PlumberPremium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
kudos:2 Reviews:
·Clear Wireless
| said by funchords:Comcast should only prioritize according to approved "Internet Standard" RFCs. Any other behavior is not Network Neutral. That's great, except there are no official standards on how applications should be prioritized. | |
1 edit | reply to Noah Vail
said by Noah Vail:Non-discriminatory means NO discrimination. That means no prioritizing, throttling, packet forging, packet injection, or anything else. Since you can not make an alteration to the network traffic streams without discrimination (ie:examination and evaluation), Comcast is promising to leave the network traffic fully unaltered. Not really, no. Prioritization absolutely wouldn't be going away, and there's no reason it should be. They certainly aren't promising to leave traffic "fully unaltered". Really, all they've said is that they won't specifically target bittorrent/p2p - odds are they'll be stopping the questionable practice of forging reset packets.
said by Noah Vail:To bring non-discrimination to practice would involve walking across the net-op center floor and powering off the Sandvine equipment. Comcast says it may take up to 9 months to accomplish this. So the Comcast Net-Op manager gets up from his chair. He takes one step. Then he takes another step. He breaths in. He breaths out. Skip 9 months. He reaches out with his right hand, index finger extended.... He depresses the button marked power... And the network upgrade is completed. Network management still needs to be done. Are you familiar at all with Sandvine?.. or is all you know "SANDVINE = BAD!!". Yes, the torrent blocking is questionable, but there's a lot of other things that equipment does and can do. Look into it. | |
funchordsHelloPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:5 | said by Anyuser2:Are you familiar at all with Sandvine?.. or is all you know "SANDVINE = BAD!!". Yes, the torrent blocking is questionable, but there's a lot of other things that equipment does and can do. Look into it. Honest question for you, or Espaeth, or other knowledgeable:
Other than the P2P Policy Enforcement part, does Sandvine's hardware have anything else that is unique and compelling over the competition?
Their stock crash tells me, "No," but this is really not my field.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
FCC Public Hearing on the Future of the Internet - Thursday, April 17th - Stanford Univ., Calif. | |
Noah VailSon made my AvatarPremium
join:2004-12-10
Lorton, VA
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| reply to espaeth
said by espaeth:Uhh.. no. Queue the Sesame Street "Some of these things are not like the others" music. Don't take this the wrong way,....
...but you're the only one who can hear the SS music.
I'm sure it's lovely.
said by espaeth:Throttling and prioritization do not modify traffic, and will still very much be a part of any network's traffic management strategy. I never spoke of modifying traffic. That was you, I'm somebody else. Perhaps the music is distracting you?
I spoke of Comcast's promise was to provide a non-discriminatory framework.
Which form of packet manipulation takes place without any packet examination and evaluation whatsoever?
said by espaeth:"This means that we will have to rapidly reconfigure our network management systems, but the outcome will be a traffic management technique that is more appropriate for today's emerging Internet trends. We have been discussing this migration and its effects with leaders in the Internet community for the last several months, and we will refine, adjust, and publish the technique based upon feedback and initial trial results," said Tony Werner, Comcast Cable's Chief Technology Officer. That's nice.
I notice he never addressed the specific network management techniques they are considering and what their goals are in respect to them. Of course, that would be information. The dissemination of which is not their strong point.
His white noise technospeak is very soothing, though. Needs some background music. Maybe some....
said by espaeth:Just curious, in your world does the equipment room have a big switch labeled "Internet" that should always remain in the "ON" position? That's just SOOOOOO cute! I can see you with Big Bird, in his "Big Room 'o Tubes". And there you are jumping up and down, dying to pull on the big foam rubber switchey thingey.
I'm sorry you mistook that for the Sandvine Policy Traffic Switch power breaker. Here, have a cookie; the music is starting up again for you.
NV
--
Abortion: A Republican Plot to Thin the Liberal Herd. | |
Noah VailSon made my AvatarPremium
join:2004-12-10
Lorton, VA
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| reply to Anyuser2
said by Anyuser2:Prioritization absolutely wouldn't be going away, and there's no reason it should be. They certainly aren't promising to leave traffic "fully unaltered". Discrimination is required for Prioritization. You can't so much as route a packet if you don't examine it first and make a judgment about it.
If the framework were non-discriminatory framework, there would be no judgments made about traffic. Your switches would be no more than hubs.
Comcast apparently forgot that non-discriminatory has an actual meaning. They threw the term out there, intending it to be feelgood gobbledygook.
That is an indicator,
that Comcast's promise
of a non-discriminatory framework,
is - say it with me now,
Yet another bald faced Comcast lie.
Perhaps it's understandable. It seems Comcast can count on a certain number of folks to ignore or redefine their declarations as the need arises.
said by Anyuser2: Really, all they've said is that they won't specifically target bittorrent/p2p Oh? Where did they declare that with clarity?
said by Anyuser2:odds are they'll be stopping the questionable practice of forging reset packets. Long odds indeed. What, precisely would they do to end that practice?
No, wait; let me guess. They'd be pulling on espaeth's big internet switch thingy?
said by Anyuser2:said by Noah Vail:To bring non-discrimination to practice would involve walking across the net-op center floor and powering off the Sandvine equipment. Comcast says it may take up to 9 months to accomplish this. So the Comcast Net-Op manager gets up from his chair. He takes one step. Then he takes another step. He breaths in. He breaths out. Skip 9 months. He reaches out with his right hand, index finger extended.... He depresses the button marked power... And the network upgrade is completed! Network management still needs to be done. Are you familiar at all with Sandvine?.. or is all you know "SANDVINE = BAD!!". Yes, the torrent blocking is questionable, but there's a lot of other things that equipment does and can do. Look into it. I see you've powerfully summed up your opinion on the company, carefully listing your objections.
Which would be that hysterically plopping forged reset packets, into one direction of a P2P transfer is questionable.
Questionable? What exactly is your question? You seemed to have a superior handle on the topic only a few sentences ago. Now you have something left to learn? Shocking.
But don't feel alone. Comcast must have had some questions as well when they directly and forcefully lied about crapping up the handshakes.
But you are so right about the unmentioned capabilities of Sandvine's PTS. Their DPI allows for expansions that could be used for inserting ads; content monitoring and putting their content ahead of, or on top of what you tried acquire.
BTW, some of us hate seeing resets; bad syns or bad checksums. It's the red flashing light that tells us somethings broken and if we have 27¢ of integrity, we'll go after the offender that dares muck up our streams.
However, that would take concern over the quality of what you provide. Comcast isn't really hooked into this quality thing. And I've duly noted your passionate concerns over their lack of customer concern. You can tone down all that passion now.
NV
--
Abortion: A Republican Plot to Thin the Liberal Herd. | |
funchordsHelloPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:5 | said by Noah Vail:Discrimination is required for Prioritization. You can't so much as route a packet if you don't examine it first and make a judgment about it. And for that, and ISP only needs to examine the IP header (Layer 3). You don't need to interpret anything after the header (which would be TCP/UDP for layer 4 or anything they transport, such as KAD,FTP,MFTP,HTTP, etc.). All the bits that the ISP needs to prioritize are also located in the IP header.
RFC 2474 Definition of the Differentiated Services Field (DS 2474 Field) in the IPv4 and IPv6 Headers (an Internet Official Protocol Standard)
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
FCC Public Hearing on the Future of the Internet - Thursday, April 17th - Stanford Univ., Calif. | |
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