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justin
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reply to TK Junk Mail
Re: More discussion here & here on the topic

It is all kind of irrelevant now that that unlocking company will be selling software unlocks for "whatever the market will bear" (at least until AT&T try to sue them).


pokesph
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said by justin See Profile :

It is all kind of irrelevant now that that unlocking company will be selling software unlocks for "whatever the market will bear" (at least until AT&T try to sue them).
sue them for what? If I buy something, it's MINE. I can do whatever I want with it.. include modify it, break it or sell it.
At most all this does is void the warranty.


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edit:
August 25th, @01:51PM

said by pokesph See Profile :

said by justin See Profile :

It is all kind of irrelevant now that that unlocking company will be selling software unlocks for "whatever the market will bear" (at least until AT&T try to sue them).
sue them for what? If I buy something, it's MINE. I can do whatever I want with it.. include modify it, break it or sell it.
At most all this does is void the warranty.
No. Bypassing security systems on a device is against the law. Check out the DMCA sometime. »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMCA
In addition to the safe harbors and exemptions the statute explicitly provides, 17 U.S.C. 1201(a)(1) requires that the Librarian of Congress issue exemptions from the prohibition against circumvention of access-control technology.
The Library of Congress made no exemptions for unlocking cellphones.
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sporkme
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said by TK Junk Mail See Profile :

No. Bypassing security systems on a device is against the law. Check out the DMCA sometime. »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMCA
In addition to the safe harbors and exemptions the statute explicitly provides, 17 U.S.C. 1201(a)(1) requires that the Librarian of Congress issue exemptions from the prohibition against circumvention of access-control technology.
The Library of Congress made no exemptions for unlocking cellphones.
From another article:

There is apparently no U.S. law against unlocking cell phones. Last year, the Library of Congress specifically excluded cell-phone unlocking from coverage under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. Among other things, the law has been used to prosecute people who modify game consoles to play a wider variety of games.
»news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070824/ap_···unlocked

There's nothing special about this phone compared to other phones and "unlocking", is there? There are plenty of places selling unlock software for other phones, even those that are subsidized by the telco selling them. Since those people are not being prosecuted, I have to imagine that article above is correct...


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said by sporkme See Profile :

From another article:

There is apparently no U.S. law against unlocking cell phones. Last year, the Library of Congress specifically excluded cell-phone unlocking from coverage under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. Among other things, the law has been used to prosecute people who modify game consoles to play a wider variety of games.
»news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070824/ap_···unlocked

I was wrong. An end user can unlock the phone to connect to another service provider. But it won't be attempted by many, because the Library of Congress did not grant an exemption to those who unlock it for reselling. Those would still be liable under the DMCA.
»tushnet.blogspot.com/2007_03_01_archive.html
The court addressed the recent exemption for certain cell phone-related conduct in the Library of Congress DMCA exemption proceedings. Because that exemption allows circumvention “for the sole purpose of lawfully connecting to a wireless telephone communication network,” the court ruled it inapplicable – defendants were circumventing for the purpose of profitable resale, not connection.

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markwp2001
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said by TK Junk Mail See Profile :

said by sporkme See Profile :

From another article:

There is apparently no U.S. law against unlocking cell phones. Last year, the Library of Congress specifically excluded cell-phone unlocking from coverage under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. Among other things, the law has been used to prosecute people who modify game consoles to play a wider variety of games.
»news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070824/ap_···unlocked

I was wrong. An end user can unlock the phone to connect to another service provider. But it won't be attempted by many, because the Library of Congress did not grant an exemption to those who unlock it for reselling. Those would still be liable under the DMCA.
»tushnet.blogspot.com/2007_03_01_archive.html
The court addressed the recent exemption for certain cell phone-related conduct in the Library of Congress DMCA exemption proceedings. Because that exemption allows circumvention “for the sole purpose of lawfully connecting to a wireless telephone communication network,” the court ruled it inapplicable – defendants were circumventing for the purpose of profitable resale, not connection.
Maybe you should "Check out the DMCA sometime. »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMCA ", as you were so quick to say to another poster.
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jtudor
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reply to TK Junk Mail
said by TK Junk Mail See Profile :

The Library of Congress made no exemptions for unlocking cellphones.
said by TK Junk Mail See Profile :

I was wrong. An end user can unlock the phone to connect to another service provider. But it won't be attempted by many, because the Library of Congress did not grant an exemption to those who unlock it for reselling. Those would still be liable under the DMCA.
Dude,

Get your institutions right. The Library of Congress does not write, make or enforce law. The Library of Congress is just like any other library, they are a repository for documents. You should refer to Congress, not the library.
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TK Junk Mail
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said by jtudor See Profile :

said by TK Junk Mail See Profile :

I was wrong. An end user can unlock the phone to connect to another service provider. But it won't be attempted by many, because the Library of Congress did not grant an exemption to those who unlock it for reselling. Those would still be liable under the DMCA.
Dude,

Get your institutions right. The Library of Congress does not write, make or enforce law. The Library of Congress is just like any other library, they are a repository for documents. You should refer to Congress, not the library.
Sorry, but this time I am right. The Copyright Office comes under the control of the Library of Congress and it is the Library of Congress that has the authority to make exceptions to the DMCA act.
»www.copyright.gov/1201/
»www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html
To register a work, send the following three elements in the same envelope or package to:
Library of Congress
Copyright Office
101 Independence Avenue, SE
Washington, DC 20559-6000

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tamovies

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exemptions


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reply to TK Junk Mail
TCH - Nope! Unlocked phones are sold all the time. If the Razr is sold unlocked, I see no reason the iPhone can be sold "unlocked" to work on another carrier. Companies sell these phones everyday. And, no, it is not against any law including the DMCA. Apple can void the warranty unless the warranty has nothing about AT&T wireless only.

Check out buy.com for unlocked cellphones. I see no one suing them.

»www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=un···llphones

Follow that Google link and find all kinds of companies unlocking phones. Some even offer warranties.

Ebay has a bunch now: »search.ebay.com/unlocked-iphone_···fromZR40
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John Galt
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Click for full size
How about this:

»accessories.us.dell.com/sna/cate···en&s=bsd
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netnerd

join:2007-04-14
Oakland, CA

what so great about the iphone??
my pdaPhone with Microsoft mobile 6.0 does ALOT more stuffs then a iphone!
with my pdaPhone, i can control my homepc, even turn homepc on or off remotely! watch my home' cableTV channels with Slingmedia. pair it with bluetooth GPS for driving navigation! surf the internet at 3G speed, that' 600k-800k, that' equal basic DSL speed compare to iphone 10years old technology EDGE give u about 200k!
can iphone does this? haha


TK Junk Mail
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edit:
August 26th, @11:03AM

reply to TK Junk Mail
Legal worries delay release of iPhone unlocking software

Looks like AT&T/Apple do think unlocking their iPhones is illegal.

»news.yahoo.com/s/infoworld/20070···ld/91354
San Francisco (IDGNS) - Fear of litigation has led to an indefinite delay in the planned Saturday release of software to unlock Apple Inc.'s iPhone.

John McLaughlin, founder of Uniquephones, based in Belfast, Northern Ireland, said Saturday that he received a phone call about 3 a.m. Saturday local time from a man claiming to be from O'Melveny & Myers LLP, an international law firm, calling on behalf of AT&T. The firm has worked with Apple in the past.

The man informed McLaughlin that if he posted the unlock code, he could be sued for copyright infringement and for dissemination of Apple's intellectual property (IP).

McLaughlin is concerned that fighting a lawsuit with AT&T or Apple would sink his small company, which does a modestly successful business unlocking wireless handsets in the U.K. and Europe. At the same time, he and engineers in several countries have invested time and money to come up with the unlock software.

"It really annoys me," he said. "We have the solution sitting there and we have the customers there, but if you connect the two you could lose everything."
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justin
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said by TK Junk Mail See Profile :

Looks like AT&T/Apple do think unlocking their iPhones is illegal.

»news.yahoo.com/s/infoworld/20070···ld/91354
"It really annoys me," he said. "We have the solution sitting there and we have the customers there, but if you connect the two you could lose everything."
He should quietly sell it to some trader in Hong Kong or Singapore who don't mind so much about the long arms of AT&T lawyers.


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reply to John Galt
Re: More discussion here & here on the topic

said by John Galt See Profile :

How about this:

»accessories.us.dell.com/sna/cate···en&s=bsd
My point exactly. Unlocking phones isn't illegal. TCH needs to take some law classes.
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TK Junk Mail
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edit:
August 26th, @01:38PM

said by supergirl See Profile :

said by John Galt See Profile :

How about this:

»accessories.us.dell.com/sna/cate···en&s=bsd
My point exactly. Unlocking phones isn't illegal. TCH needs to take some law classes.
For resale it is. They are breaking the law based on an Appeals Court decision initiated on a complaint by Tracfone. »www.wired.com/politics/onlinerig···Page=all
The cell phone unlocking exemption covers cases where cell phone software locks are circumvented "for the sole purpose of lawfully connecting to a wireless telephone communication network." Though TracFone's own lawsuits were partially the impetus for the exemption, the company argues the plain language still doesn't apply to the resellers it's suing. "We argued the large-scale unlocking ... was for the purpose of reselling the phone for profit overseas and therefore not subject to this exemption," says Baldinger. »www.copyright.gov/fedreg/2006/71fr68472.pdf
Read the link, Tracfone is winning lawsuits against resellers.
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supergirl

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TCH, Tracphone's argument is ridiculous and doesn't apply to unlocking phones they don't have. Even then, if a person buys a cellphone and wants to use it on another network, why shouldn't they be allowed to?

"But the company isn't above hedging its bets. In 11 lawsuits, the company has hit resellers with a raft of claims, including trademark and copyright infringement, unfair competition, tortuous interference with business relationships, false advertising, harm to business reputation, civil conspiracy and unjust enrichment, in addition to alleged DMCA violations.

The lawsuits target individuals in Georgia, Oklahoma, Michigan, Indiana and California. None have gone to trial, so TracFone's DMCA theory hasn't been tested. But even if the DMCA exemption were found to apply, the defendants would still face the other claims in the lawsuits.

Instead, in six cases the defendants have settled, agreeing to an injunction preventing them from purchasing TracFone phones to be unlocked and sold. In four others, settlements have been reached, but a judge has yet to approve them. The 11th case is pending.

"There are a whole bunch more lawsuits in the pipeline," TracFone's Baldinger said.

Baldinger argues the DMCA exemption was only intended to protect consumer choice, and calls the people he's suing "criminals." Prepaid competitor Virgin Mobile USA agrees. "In the long run, this activity increases the cost of service and makes wireless service not available to people in the lower income areas," said Jayne Wallace, a Virgin Mobile spokeswoman. "We have been involved in going after some of those people."

Clearly, Tracphone is upset over unlocking its cheap phones not everyone else's. Virgin's argument is just ridiculous. Unlocking pre-paid cellphones, most of which are cheapies, is not the market for unlocked phones anyway. I wouldn't pay $50 for those junk phones, locked or unlocked, in the first place and neither would anyone else.

The legal argument you supplied doesn't apply to non-prepaid. Go back to law books.
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supergirl

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reply to sporkme
said by sporkme See Profile :

said by TK Junk Mail See Profile :

No. Bypassing security systems on a device is against the law. Check out the DMCA sometime. »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMCA
In addition to the safe harbors and exemptions the statute explicitly provides, 17 U.S.C. 1201(a)(1) requires that the Librarian of Congress issue exemptions from the prohibition against circumvention of access-control technology.
The Library of Congress made no exemptions for unlocking cellphones.
From another article:

There is apparently no U.S. law against unlocking cell phones. Last year, the Library of Congress specifically excluded cell-phone unlocking from coverage under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. Among other things, the law has been used to prosecute people who modify game consoles to play a wider variety of games.
»news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070824/ap_···unlocked

There's nothing special about this phone compared to other phones and "unlocking", is there? There are plenty of places selling unlock software for other phones, even those that are subsidized by the telco selling them. Since those people are not being prosecuted, I have to imagine that article above is correct...
An article TCH failed to mention:

»www.wired.com/gadgets/wireless/n···contract

""I think there's no chance whatsoever that a layperson would understand it and I doubt they could get through it. I think most lawyers wouldn't understand it either," says Fred von Lohmann, a staff attorney with the Electronic Frontier Foundation who in a past career crafted licensing service agreements for a living.

An Apple representative declined to answer questions or comment.

The good news: The document consists mostly of boilerplate that is standard in most wireless contracts, and contains no real surprises. Its unusual length stems from the fact that the iPhone is bundled with several services, each of which has its own licensing agreement.

The bad news: The iPhone contract may not be the last word in overly long and complex user agreements. Terms-of-service contracts promise to grow even more dense, legal experts warn, making them even more difficult to understand than they already are.

That's a problem, because even standard contracts now contain some legally questionable provisions that you should be aware of regardless of the phone and plan you use -- for example, regarding reverse engineering and arbitration."

Considering even some lawyers I know probably wouldn't understand it, the SCOTUS might just throw the "agreement" back at AT&T and say, "This is the most ridiculous legal boiler plate crap we've even seen. Insurance companies ought to hire the lawyers that wrote this crap. We'll just rip, mix, and burn this agreement. Try again when even a lawyer can read it and understand it."
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TK Junk Mail
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reply to supergirl
said by supergirl See Profile :

TCH - Nope! Unlocked phones are sold all the time. If the Razr is sold unlocked, I see no reason the iPhone can be sold "unlocked" to work on another carrier. Companies sell these phones everyday. And, no, it is not against any law including the DMCA. Apple can void the warranty unless the warranty has nothing about AT&T wireless only.

Check out buy.com for unlocked cellphones. I see no one suing them.

»www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=un···llphones

Follow that Google link and find all kinds of companies unlocking phones. Some even offer warranties.

Ebay has a bunch now: »search.ebay.com/unlocked-iphone_···fromZR40
Seems like you may be wrong about that:
»news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070829/ap_···YPcE1vAI
Unlocking the phone for one's own use, for instance to place calls with a different carrier, appears to be legal. But if it's done for financial gain, the legality is less certain.

"Whether people can make profits from software that hacks the iPhone is going to depend very much on exactly what was done to develop that software and what does that software do," said Bart Showalter, head of the Intellectual Property practice group at law firm Baker Botts in Dallas.

The U.S. District Court in Orlando found that the DMCA exception did not apply to those unlocking a phone with the intent to resell it.

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