8 mile NLOS link in Wireless Service Providers

8 mile NLOS link in Wireless Service Providers http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r16225404 en Thu, 26 Nov 2009 03:14:44 EDT Thu, 26 Nov 2009 03:14:44 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16307416 anon : Ok, Nathan;

This image shows the bad news. I have *assumed* an antenna height at each end of the proposed link of 78 feet.

On the path I have marked a red circle where there is a tall hill in the path.

Even at 78 feet on both ends you only have .2 F1 fresnel clearance over the large hill. That is a pretty bad situation. You probably will have trouble making a legal (FCC legal) link over that hill.

If that hill is also covered with trees, even at 900 MHz, you probably wont be able to make a good link at all.

Sorry. Consider doing that link in two hops.

-m-

NLOS

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16307416 Thu, 15 Jun 2006 12:48:29 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16293415 anon : Did I give the right coordinates?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16293415 Tue, 13 Jun 2006 10:29:30 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16272597 anon : Ok, thanks. These should be correct: My house: 40 58 01.31 N, 85 35 12.07 W. Grain leg: 40 56 38.39 N, 85 26 22.67 W.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16272597 Fri, 09 Jun 2006 18:52:33 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16271905 robbin : Actually it is easier than that. Just enter the address and let it zoom in. Then move the pointer (hand) to the exact location and look at the bottom of the screen and you should see the coordinates in the default view.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16271905 Fri, 09 Jun 2006 17:13:38 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16271783 PersComp : You can turn on lat/long grid with one of the menu items at the top. Then just zoom into your location.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16271783 Fri, 09 Jun 2006 16:53:32 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16271420 anon : Sorry about not getting the coordinates correct, how do you get them in google earth? I was having some problems and that was why my numbers where different.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16271420 Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:57:07 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16264798 anon : Moto claims their receive sensitivity is -90 dBm. We have seen them hit that and better; however, Moto wants a 3 dB SNR minimum. That takes us to -87 dBm @ single speed with no fade margin. Moto claims that they can operate reliably with a 6 dB fade margin. We have not seen that but our area is heavy forest, maybe in other areas you can get that kind of performance. We have not been so lucky. We figure in a fade margin of 12 dB and that takes us to -75 dBm minimum receive signal on a link. If the tech gets less than that and does not call into the office and talk with me personally to get my authorization he had better not hang that radio. ;)

I further reduce that by 3 dB because it only because feels good to have a map that I can be very comfortable with when I claim a site will have coverage. Moto claims that it wants -66 dBm to run reliably at double speed, by the way.

I might have been a bit tough on that map but he is still a very long way outside of the coverage area for a 75' access point.

When we get better coordinates I'll do a more lenient plot.

:)

-m-]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16264798 Thu, 08 Jun 2006 17:48:39 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16264402 Semaphore : Just curious. Why do you set RM Threshold to -72 ? That seems sort of low for Canopy 900Mhz. Moto's Propaganda says -90. We try for -86 or better.

S]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16264402 Thu, 08 Jun 2006 16:48:40 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16263525 anon : There is a discrepancy between the two sets of coordinates he posted for his WISP. The Northing varies by 20 seconds. At his lattitude this will be around 1200 feet.

Nathan, check your coordinates. Get them correct or nothing else will matter.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16263525 Thu, 08 Jun 2006 14:41:47 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16263171 lutful :

said by AnonDOG :

The CPE modeled was a Canopy SM with a 14 dBi Yagi.

AnonDOG, what is the probability of making the link with a Hyperlink 18dBi grid at 70ft that Nathan mentioned at his end?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16263171 Thu, 08 Jun 2006 13:47:58 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16263030 robbin : Radio Mobile]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16263030 Thu, 08 Jun 2006 13:24:57 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16263003 StormeAngel : What did you use to make the map with?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16263003 Thu, 08 Jun 2006 13:20:56 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16262753 anon : Here is the coverage area of your WISP.

This presumes Motorola Canopy hardware in it's standard configuration at 75 feet on his end and at 45 feet on your end.

The CPE modeled was a Canopy SM with a 14 dBi Yagi.

You will observe that you are well outside of his coverage area. Worse that that there is a tall mound about half way between you and him. You can not even clear that mound with an antenna less than 45' at your end.

To make this link you will need to be at about 90 feet on your end and then it will be marginal.

This is because it is so difficult to get frenel clearance over that hill I mention.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16262753 Thu, 08 Jun 2006 12:49:59 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16262455 LLigetfa : Ja, but there were lots of CPE brands tossed about. Funny that it is only at about page 2 that the full details reveal but by then everyone is off on a different tangent. Just trying to get them facing the right direction again.

So Nathan, are you hoping to hit the WISP's tower, or do you plan to setup your own relay from somewhere in between? If you plan to hit their tower, you need to know what frequency they are running. Moto Canopy comes in different flavors.

We have a new WISP setting up here soon and they are talking Canopy with a reach of 14 KM (8.7 miles).

If your WISP will not do a free site survey, you may have to pay them to come out and if they don't have a bucket truck, you may have to pull in a favour and find one for them.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16262455 Thu, 08 Jun 2006 11:56:55 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16262322 uscomputing : That's true, LLigetfa - but you can use other brands of antennas with them.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16262322 Thu, 08 Jun 2006 11:36:00 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16262312 LLigetfa :

said by Nathan H :

The brand they use is "Motorola Canopy".

I thought I read somewhere that they (Moto Canopy) use proprietary chipsets so you cannot use any other brand of CPE.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16262312 Thu, 08 Jun 2006 11:34:09 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16261632 anon : You mean a site servey at my house? They won't do that. The whole reason I started this topic is because the wisp says I'm too far and they won't mess with me :(]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16261632 Thu, 08 Jun 2006 09:13:36 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16258141 lutful : Please ask your WISP to do a site survey using connectorized SM and a few high gain antenna choices.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16258141 Wed, 07 Jun 2006 19:13:17 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16257319 anon : The brand they use is "Motorola Canopy". I can't get the towers height, but it's probably somewhere around 70'.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16257319 Wed, 07 Jun 2006 17:10:43 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16247937 anon : I called them again today but to no avail. I keep getting customer service people who have no idea about anything! The last customer service woman I talked to said that someone who knew what they were talking about (not her exact words) would call me back. So I'm still waiting on that call...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16247937 Tue, 06 Jun 2006 11:28:23 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16243434 anon : Their name is Indiana Data(www.indianadata.com).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16243434 Mon, 05 Jun 2006 19:02:26 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16240504 StormeAngel : What is the name of the provider? You can IM me with it, if you don't want to post it. That is fine by me.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16240504 Mon, 05 Jun 2006 12:01:41 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16240029 anon : 40 56 39.87 N , 85 26 22.87 W, is the wireless ISP's access point. 40 58 02.08 N, 85 35 12.52 W, is my house. I still haven't gotten in touch with the ISP's office, so I don't know what brand of equipment they're using, but I'm hoping to call them today.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16240029 Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:47:04 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16231307 robbin : You gave coordinates before -- which end is your end and which is the WISP?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16231307 Sat, 03 Jun 2006 22:21:56 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16231238 anon : The antenna is located on a grain leg, it's probably 60-70 feet high, although I'm not sure... The WISP's office is closed on Saturday and Sunday, so I won't be able to get the information until monday. Would the antenna on my end have to be very high? The land here dips here, but there aren’t any mountains or anything... The roof of my house is about 35ft high, I don't know if that would be high enough though.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16231238 Sat, 03 Jun 2006 22:08:49 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16228868 robbin : Before you start looking for an antenna you need more info. All 900 MHz gear does not work together, so the first thing you need to find out is the brand of equipment the WISP uses. Then you also need to know what antenna the WISP is using on their tower as well as it's height.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16228868 Sat, 03 Jun 2006 14:17:53 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16228046 marktinney : I am using 900mhz Avalan Wireless radios with 15db yagi and they are working great, the link is 9.4 miles and you have a better path than I do. I have 160 tower with equipment mounted @ 130' level on one side and a 35 foot tower on the other. The 900mhz will penetrate tree but not mountains. Good luck with your link.

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16228046 Sat, 03 Jun 2006 11:41:04 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16227354 anon : [lutful] Yep, that was me in the other thread... I've been away and forgot all my login information though.[/lutful] I found a WISP that has an access point at the other end of the coordinates I posted, they're like 7.83 miles from me. When I called them to see if I could get their internet they said their equipment was 900 MHz and they only served people within a 5 mile radious(I'm cursed) of an access point. So I've been trying to find some sort of 900 MHz antenna that they would let me use...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16227354 Sat, 03 Jun 2006 08:40:15 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16226863 Diddy1 :

said by lutful

:

modems.

Install as high as you can - I will suggest 60ft minimum. If the link does not work, you can sell them as two 900Mhz spectrum analyzer kits at a profit. ;)

Smart thinking! Have you thought about a job in marketing?
:p
Aaron]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16226863 Sat, 03 Jun 2006 03:26:59 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16226720 rawgerz : I hope you appreciate this I spent the last hour trying to get both links on the map but they are too far apart so this distance my be closer to 5 miles..
Your going to need AT least 60Ft towers on each end for 900Mhz
--
"Hows your French toast?" "Smelly and ungrateful, but this AMERICAN toast is great!"

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16226720 Sat, 03 Jun 2006 02:37:07 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16226354 public :

said by lutful

:

Nathan, I recall suggesting multi-hop from Huntington »Advice? :)
If you really want to try and have ~$1000 to spend, buy a pair of 900Mhz/18dBi grids and 900Mhz/1W Maxtend RS232 modems.

You can buy a pair of ptp 1.5Mbps 900MHz ethernet bridges for $600.
There are two vendors. One us, one in canada.
Yagis tend to work better at 900 MHz.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16226354 Sat, 03 Jun 2006 00:49:51 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16225804 lutful : Nathan, I recall suggesting multi-hop from Huntington »Advice? :)

You risk spending $10K or more to find out high-speed NLOS may not work for you because there are some points along path that are ~20ft higher with forests.

If you really want to try and have ~$1000 to spend, buy a pair of 900Mhz/18dBi grids and 900Mhz/1W Maxtend RS232 modems.

Install as high as you can - I will suggest 60ft minimum. If the link does not work, you can sell them as two 900Mhz spectrum analyzer kits at a profit. ;)

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16225804 Fri, 02 Jun 2006 23:09:21 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16225643 anon : Start: 40 58 02.08 N, 85 35 12.52 W. End: 40 56 59.87 N , 85 26 22.87 W. I couldn't get in the degrees signs... But those are all of the numbers.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16225643 Fri, 02 Jun 2006 22:43:54 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16225505 lutful : Nathan, you could be seriously mis-led if you start searching for NLOS equipment before path analysis using Radio Mobile.

Kindly place your mouse on each of end of the link in Google Earth and post the co-ordinates shown and WISP folks will check the path for you. You should also check the buildings and forest along the path visually.

Vyyo CPE uses a DOCSIS (cable) modem with a 700Mhz upconverter, but the article forgot to mention you need to spend $100K on the base-station radio and CMTS head-end.
»www.vyyo.com/Site/upload_files/s···_new.pdf]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16225505 Fri, 02 Jun 2006 22:20:29 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16225450 anon : Thanks for the quick reply, I live in Indiana, so There are large patches of trees at the end of each field. There might be a few building in the way, but I think it's mostly trees.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16225450 Fri, 02 Jun 2006 22:10:58 EDT Re: 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16225421 robbin : Is your link NLOS because of trees, buildings or a mountain in the way?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16225421 Fri, 02 Jun 2006 22:06:54 EDT 8 mile NLOS link http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16225404 anon : Hi, I need to create an 8 mile or so link that delivers reasonable speeds (1.5MB both way's fine). I don't have a very large budget, and need the antennas to be unlicensed. What would you guys suggest? I found this site: »www.dailywireless.org/modules.ph···sid=4100 that said "Vyyo's Non-Line-of-Sight 700 Mhz modem, the V284 provides coverage more than 9 miles NLOS outdoors." But I haven't really found much information about it... So I guess it's possible to have a NLOS link of 8 miles, but I really don't know much about wireless and thought it might be wise to ask people that did for some advice :)

Thanks,
Nathan]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,16225404 Fri, 02 Jun 2006 22:04:10 EDT