Is there a way to not see a vulnerable router ? in Wireless Security http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r14733808 en Wed, 25 Nov 2009 22:17:44 EDT Wed, 25 Nov 2009 22:17:44 EDT Re: Is there a way to not see a vulnerable router ? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14949031 Link Logger :
said by Bobcat See Profile :

(assuming that WPA was already enabled)
First running at least WPA fixes a whole pile of security problems surrounding wifi, if you have it, USE IT, if not, GET IT. I can't believe there are still vendors selling wifi without at least WPA.

So we will assume the target is running WEP or less. What access point will a client connect to, all other things being equal(ie spoofed), an access point which is broadcasting the SSID or one that isn't? How hard is it to find and then spoof the SSID? How hard is it to find and spoof the SSID Mac Address? So what happens if I spoof all this information and then send out forged 802.11 disassociation messages, which access point will the clients re-attach to, mine or yours (as far as they can tell we are identical, except I'm broadcasting, your not)?

WEP is bad, get over it and get at least WPA as it fixes a ton of security problems within WEP. WPA and up defend against this type of attack. WPA and WPA2 incorporate a signed message integrity check which will sense the forged frames and drop them.

Blake
--
Vendor: Firewall Logging Software »www.SonicLogger.com - SonicWall and 3Com »www.LinkLogger.com - Linksys, Netgear and Zyxel]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14949031 Mon, 05 Dec 2005 00:39:50 EDT Re: Is there a way to not see a vulnerable router http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14948559 anon : Turn off your ssid and become more interesting to wardriving. What a crock of bull, where do you get this crap? Is this your own personal method at hacking your neighbors systems? If you can not make a response with facts don't reply.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14948559 Sun, 04 Dec 2005 23:08:31 EDT Re: Is there a way to not see a vulnerable router http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14947726 cacroll :
said by Bobcat See Profile :

said by Link Logger See Profile :

Turning off your SSID does NOT improve your security status, in fact it could increase your risk.
Please explain how not broadcasting the SSID would increase the risk (assuming that WPA was already enabled). I don't see any downside, except that others in the neighborhood looking for a clear channel wouldn't know what channel you're already using.


When you turn your SSID off, your clients have to work harder to associate with the AP, and they're broadcasting the SSID (not as a beacon, but still it's out there) as they do. This increases the amount of traffic too. ICSA Labs has a pretty detailed whitepaper.
»www.icsalabs.com/html/communitie···ding.pdf

If you turn off your SSID, any wardriver detecting you (and any one with any skill will) may think you're more interesting.
--
Cheers,
Chuck
MS-MVP [Windows - Networking]
PChuck's Network]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14947726 Sun, 04 Dec 2005 21:07:54 EDT Re: Is there a way to not see a vulnerable router http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14947688 Nerdtalker :
said by Bobcat See Profile :

Please explain how not broadcasting the SSID would increase the risk (assuming that WPA was already enabled). I don't see any downside, except that others in the neighborhood looking for a clear channel wouldn't know what channel you're already using.

I have my SSID turned-off, and I can connect with WinXP just fine.
It doesn't increase the risk (although it can give inexperienced users a false sense of security), but it doesn't offer any additional security at all.

Passive detection tools like kismet can still pull the SSID, channel #, and client mac addresses "from the air", despite the fact that the AP isn't broadcasting the SSID. Your average script-kiddie with a copy of Netstumbler, however, likely won't see it, although some APs still respond.

Also, it obfuscates the process of associating with the AP for some client/AP combinations, especially with WZC. Your specific instance must be just luck, since I usually see that WPA/WPA2+SSID broadcasts turned off usually spells an increased amount of headaches.
--
"Some people never see the light till it shines thru bullet holes." -Bruce Cockburn

I'm testing Gmail's spam filters: Broadbandreports1@gmail.com
Spam: 8800+ messages currently using 268 MB (11%) of my 2442 MB]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14947688 Sun, 04 Dec 2005 21:02:19 EDT Re: Is there a way to not see a vulnerable router ? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14947563 Bobcat :
said by Link Logger See Profile :

Turning off your SSID does NOT improve your security status, in fact it could increase your risk.
Please explain how not broadcasting the SSID would increase the risk (assuming that WPA was already enabled). I don't see any downside, except that others in the neighborhood looking for a clear channel wouldn't know what channel you're already using.

I have my SSID turned-off, and I can connect with WinXP just fine.
--
"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is."
» George W. Bush, April 9, 1999]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14947563 Sun, 04 Dec 2005 20:42:43 EDT Re: Is there a way to not see a vulnerable router http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14945029 anon : This is the most positive reply out of the whole bunch of negative responses. Ie; You are not getting the point, it does not provide any security. The op did not ask if it provides protection, the question was if it removes his ssid from the non-tech, non security conscious average user in his neighborhood. Answer, yes it will, geez was this so difficult to answer?

As this poster has said, try it both ways and determine which you prefer. If it works great with ssid off, great; if not turn it on. Problem solved. I turn mine off because there are way too many wireless users in my area. I do not turn it off for security reasons, only to prevent others system from looking at my system for access. BTW, I do not have any connection problems with my ssid turned off.

Give advice and allow people make a decision. Just because they do not take your advice, shootist does not make them less informed or less secure than you.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14945029 Sun, 04 Dec 2005 14:03:14 EDT Re: Is there a way to not see a vulnerable router http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14934366 dspalding : Gabriel22, I don't understand your concern with the unsecured router. It's not a problem for you. "Those people" aren't harming your lan by having a wide open router.

SSID broadcast has its use, so you are better off leaving it to "broadcast." Just use WPA with a strong passphrase, or WEP if you can't use WPA, and change the code regularly. This may sound "too simple," but it works. ;) ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14934366 Fri, 02 Dec 2005 17:52:59 EDT Re: Is there a way to not see a vulnerable router ? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14925020 yeti34 : The unsecured router is just that, unsecure. They will in no way have any effect on your secured router. All they will see if you have SSID enabled is that you have a secured network and they will not be able to access it. I see this all the time in my neighborhood, there seems to be a few people that have not secured theirs routers and I could access them, but don't. This is just the nature of wireless, if it bothers you just stick with hard wires and turn the WiFi off. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14925020 Thu, 01 Dec 2005 14:39:22 EDT Re: Is there a way to not see a vulnerable router ? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14760845 Link Logger : Turning off your SSID does NOT improve your security status, in fact it could increase your risk. Any war driver who doesn't know how to use at least NetStumbler needs to pack up his computer and ship it back to wherever he got it from and likely should do the same with their driving license.

If you want to hide your wireless router then disable the wireless capabilities or unplug it. The very idea of a wifi router is not to hide so what you are asking is not really possible. If you wish to connect to a router and not have it broadcast its existence via a wifi signal then you need to switch to a wired only solution (or as I said disable the wifi functionality of your router).

Blake
--
Vendor: Firewall Logging Software »www.SonicLogger.com - SonicWall and 3Com »www.LinkLogger.com - Linksys, Netgear and Zyxel]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14760845 Tue, 08 Nov 2005 15:54:20 EDT Re: Is there a way to not see a vulnerable router http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14760637 anon : It is your system. Try connecting without broadcasting the ssid, if it works without any connection issues, leave it off. It will not provide added protection from someone intent on hacking your system. But, if it makes you feel better that is all that matters. Make your decision from the advice given.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14760637 Tue, 08 Nov 2005 15:30:23 EDT Re: Is there a way to not see a vulnerable router http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14746527 jza80 : Hiding the SSID does absolutely nothing security wise. Only real way to turn it off is unplug your wireless router/AP or turn off wireless.

If your worried about someone using your connection, use WEP or WPA. WPA is preferred over WEP.

As for special "toolz", try NetStumbler. It picks up wireless APs, whether SSID broadcast is on or off.

I can pick up 2 other APs besides my own.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14746527 Sun, 06 Nov 2005 19:25:13 EDT Re: Is there a way to not see a vulnerable router http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14745675 Gabriel 22 : Why would I want to hide it.

I guess so the unsecured Wifi router owner doesn't see us.
I mean. They don't even know how to secure their equipment.
Couldn't I just slip by unnoticed by hiding the ssid ?

It doesn't matter. I use xp, so I'll have to broadcast the ssid.
--
Happy Dell PC Owner.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14745675 Sun, 06 Nov 2005 16:45:57 EDT Re: Is there a way to not see a vulnerable router http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14745495 Shootist : Simple fact is if you're running Windows XP you will need to broadcast the SSID to make a connection.

So the real question is IF you can NAME it anything you want, Not Open/Go Away/I'll find you if you try to connect/ WHATEVER, and it adds nothing as far as security and only inhibits you from connecting to your own wireless signal why would you want to hide it???????
--
Shooter Ready--Stand By BEEP ********]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14745495 Sun, 06 Nov 2005 16:10:14 EDT Re: Is there a way to not see a vulnerable router http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14745460 SqueeksDad : I like the analogy someone here uses, turning off SSID is like hanging a sign on your front door that says NO DOOR HERE.

The door is still visible to anyone that "MIGHT" be looking, and really only makes you feel like your hidden.
--
Ways to Relieve Stress #10. Make up a language and ask people for directions. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14745460 Sun, 06 Nov 2005 16:03:43 EDT Re: Is there a way to not see a vulnerable router http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14745427 Nerdtalker :
said by Gabriel 22 See Profile :

Thank you very much for clarifying that.

Netgear tech support says nobody can see it without special "Toolz" though.
Well, they really aren't that special at all.

In all honesty, it can make associating with your AP considerably more difficult, and I've seen some AP-Wireless NIC combinations that have major issues associating when using WPA when the AP doesn't have SSID broadcasts turned on.
--
"Some people never see the light till it shines thru bullet holes." -Bruce Cockburn

I'm testing Gmail's spam filters: Broadbandreports1@gmail.com
Spam: 8800+ messages currently using 268 MB (11%) of my 2442 MB]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14745427 Sun, 06 Nov 2005 15:57:58 EDT Re: Is there a way to not see a vulnerable router http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14745325 Gabriel 22 :
said by Nerdtalker See Profile :

You don't need magical "toolz" to see the (ssid)
I didn't understand this point.

Thank you very much for clarifying that.

Netgear tech support says nobody can see it without special "Toolz" though.

So now I'm a bit confused. :(
--
Happy Dell PC Owner.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14745325 Sun, 06 Nov 2005 15:40:42 EDT Re: Is there a way to not see a vulnerable router http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14745307 Nerdtalker :
said by Shootist See Profile :

Hiding the SSID means absolutely nothing for security and only makes it harder for YOU to connect to your own wireless signal.
Exactly.

It's truly worthless, and it provides a false sense of security.

You don't need magical "toolz" to see the AP, a bunch of it doesn't require any special technical knowledge to use.
--
"Some people never see the light till it shines thru bullet holes." -Bruce Cockburn

I'm testing Gmail's spam filters: Broadbandreports1@gmail.com
Spam: 8800+ messages currently using 268 MB (11%) of my 2442 MB]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14745307 Sun, 06 Nov 2005 15:37:28 EDT Re: Is there a way to not see a vulnerable router http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14745249 Shootist : Really you are NOT getting the POINT.
Hiding the SSID means absolutely nothing for security and only makes it harder for YOU to connect to your own wireless signal.
--
Shooter Ready--Stand By BEEP ********]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14745249 Sun, 06 Nov 2005 15:27:35 EDT Re: Is there a way to not see a vulnerable router http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14745011 Gabriel 22 : I think I'll still use it. The people who don't secure their router aren't likely to use hacker software just so they can see my hidden ssid. I understand the local wardriver would see it though if they were determined.
--
Happy Dell PC Owner.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14745011 Sun, 06 Nov 2005 14:45:40 EDT Re: Is there a way to not see a vulnerable router http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14744102 Nerdtalker :
said by Gabriel 22 See Profile :

Do they have to use special software to see my ssid if I disable broadcasting it, or would it show up on their available router list ?
It isn't that special, really, but yes, they'd need software to "see" your SSID.

The bottom line is that disabling SSID broadcasts provides no additional security, whatsoever. It just doesn't.
--
"Some people never see the light till it shines thru bullet holes." -Bruce Cockburn

I'm testing Gmail's spam filters: Broadbandreports1@gmail.com
Spam: 8800+ messages currently using 268 MB (11%) of my 2442 MB]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14744102 Sun, 06 Nov 2005 12:19:11 EDT Re: Is there a way to not see a vulnerable router http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14742882 Shootist : IF you disable the SSID "YOU" will have a hard time connecting to your own wireless. Turning off the broadcasting of the SSID does nothing for security. Just name it something like 221B Baker St.
--
Shooter Ready--Stand By BEEP ********]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14742882 Sun, 06 Nov 2005 05:36:58 EDT Re: Is there a way to not see a vulnerable router http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14742686 Gabriel 22 :
said by Nerdtalker See Profile :

said by Gabriel 22 See Profile :

Is there any way to hide my ssid so nobody see's it ?
No, there really isn't.

Even if you turn SSID broadcasts off, passive detection tools can still pull the SSID from the air. Doing so doesn't provide any extra security, whatsoever, and obfuscates the process of connecting to your AP in WCZ.

Using WPA really is the best solution.
Do they have to use special software to see my ssid if I disable broadcasting it, or would it show up on their available router list ?
--
Happy Dell PC Owner.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14742686 Sun, 06 Nov 2005 02:54:23 EDT Re: Is there a way to not see a vulnerable router http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14742198 Nerdtalker :
said by Gabriel 22 See Profile :

Is there any way to hide my ssid so nobody see's it ?
No, there really isn't.

Even if you turn SSID broadcasts off, passive detection tools can still pull the SSID from the air. Doing so doesn't provide any extra security, whatsoever, and obfuscates the process of connecting to your AP in WCZ.

Using WPA really is the best solution.
--
"Some people never see the light till it shines thru bullet holes." -Bruce Cockburn

I'm testing Gmail's spam filters: Broadbandreports1@gmail.com
Spam: 8800+ messages currently using 268 MB (11%) of my 2442 MB]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14742198 Sun, 06 Nov 2005 00:34:32 EDT Re: Is there a way to not see a vulnerable router http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14741352 Gabriel 22 : I can't test it for a few days to see for myself.

Is there any way to hide my ssid so nobody see's it ?
--
Happy Dell PC Owner.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14741352 Sat, 05 Nov 2005 22:02:00 EDT Re: Is there a way to not see a vulnerable router http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14736905 Shootist : Sorry but that will not STOP the unsecured wireless signals from showing up when you "View Wireless Networks". They will still be there and can be connected to very simply.
--
Shooter Ready--Stand By BEEP ********]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14736905 Sat, 05 Nov 2005 07:24:52 EDT Re: Is there a way to not see a vulnerable router http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14734166 cacroll :
said by Gabriel 22 See Profile :

said by cacroll See Profile :

said by Gabriel 22 See Profile :

I see a wireless router that has no security, nothing. It bothers my family to use wireless now because of this.

Is there a way to not see this vulnerable broadcasting wireless router without disabling our wireless internet ?
As stated elsewhere in this forum, not seeing another router / WAP is easily done.
•Make sure that your WAP is set to broadcast the SSID.
•Change the SSID to be unique (but not something that can easily identify you).
•In your wireless client, set that SSID as preferred.
•In your wireless client, set to connect only to preferred access points.
That's great. Thanks ! :D


My pleasure. Stop by any time! :)
--
Cheers,
Chuck
MS-MVP [Windows - Networking]
PChuck's Network]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14734166 Fri, 04 Nov 2005 19:35:18 EDT Re: Is there a way to not see a vulnerable router http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14733884 Gabriel 22 :
said by cacroll See Profile :

said by Gabriel 22 See Profile :

I see a wireless router that has no security, nothing. It bothers my family to use wireless now because of this.

Is there a way to not see this vulnerable broadcasting wireless router without disabling our wireless internet ?
As stated elsewhere in this forum, not seeing another router / WAP is easily done.
•Make sure that your WAP is set to broadcast the SSID.
•Change the SSID to be unique (but not something that can easily identify you).
•In your wireless client, set that SSID as preferred.
•In your wireless client, set to connect only to preferred access points.
That's great. Thanks ! :D
--
Happy Dell PC Owner.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14733884 Fri, 04 Nov 2005 18:55:39 EDT Re: Is there a way to not see a vulnerable router http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14733850 cacroll :
said by Gabriel 22 See Profile :

I see a wireless router that has no security, nothing. It bothers my family to use wireless now because of this.

Is there a way to not see this vulnerable broadcasting wireless router without disabling our wireless internet ?


As stated elsewhere in this forum, not seeing another router / WAP is easily done.
•Make sure that your WAP is set to broadcast the SSID.
•Change the SSID to be unique (but not something that can easily identify you).
•In your wireless client, set that SSID as preferred.
•In your wireless client, set to connect only to preferred access points.
--
Cheers,
Chuck
MS-MVP [Windows - Networking]
PChuck's Network]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14733850 Fri, 04 Nov 2005 18:50:41 EDT Is there a way to not see a vulnerable router ? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14733808 Gabriel 22 : I see a wireless router that has no security, nothing. It bothers my family to use wireless now because of this.

Is there a way to not see this vulnerable broadcasting wireless router without disabling our wireless internet ?
--
Happy Dell PC Owner.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14733808 Fri, 04 Nov 2005 18:45:50 EDT