Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg in ZyXEL http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r14702600 en Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:06:00 EDT Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:06:00 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14793243 Kirby Smith : Thanks cjax. I hadn't read that A/B distinction before.

kirby]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14793243 Sat, 12 Nov 2005 23:29:55 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14790685 cjax : Thanks for someone speaking out with good information. The issue is not if the router or CPE equipment has different technology to support FTTP/FTTH. It's how the current technology is used in a way as to not hinder the speed capable with FTTP/FTTH. What may users of products don't realize is that just b/c you have a 10/100 port on your router, that doesn't mean the router is capable of keeping up with those speeds.

Case and point ---> »www.netgear.com/pdf_docs/2005011···trix.pdf
(look at WAN to LAN speeds)

I'm not trying to compare netgear to ZyXel to router xyz b/c they are all different products. What I am trying to say is that many times the WAN to LAN speed has many factors such as processor speed, firewall packet processing, etc. So although company X may have a very good all around product, it may not be able to keep up with the speeds for FTTP/FTTH. This was very evident when Verizon chose to use Dlink VDI-604 and VDI-624 router for their deployment for their FiOS service. The VDI-604 and VDI-624 are just Verizon versions of the standard D-Link DI-604 and DI-624. It has been confirmed that the standard out of the box D-link router could not achieve the 15/2 speeds but the VDI series D-Links routers could. No change in technology but, a change in firmware and maybe a different processor. 5/2 speeds should be fine with almost any home router.

Also to clear up some info - APON is based on the ITU G.938 International Standard, which supports 64:1 passive optical splitters (Non-North American Standard). BPON on the other hand supports up to 32:1 passive optical splitters. Each customer channel is end to end encrypted, not sure if this is the case with APON. BPON is basically the specification that Verizon, BellSouth, and SBC came up with for FTTP/FTTH. Having a spec common to all, provided overall lower cost of common equipment and components.

All of these technologies use ATM for traffic management.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14790685 Sat, 12 Nov 2005 15:48:14 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14790487 bbarrera : I haven't researched the various FTTH schemes. It seems to me that all you need is an Ethernet router capable of routing at advertised speed, which in my case is up to 20M each direction. The earlier discussion was confusing because it discussed wireless datarates and QoS, when my real question was about routing/firewall performance.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14790487 Sat, 12 Nov 2005 15:14:34 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14790141 Shootist :
said by Kirby Smith See Profile :

said by DavidJWood See Profile :

Whilst I won't word it in the same way as others, I do wish to join in on the questioning as to why FTTH needs any kind of special support.

Verizon's FiOS, probably the most common FTTH system at the moment, is an EPON system - Ethernet over PON. There's no ATM involved in these systems, which is one reason why they're relatively cheap to implement. What's so special on the CPE side of a FTTH install that needs special support in a router, especially in an FTTH system that is based around Ethernet?

David
Some here may wish to spend some time at the Verizon FiOS forum. There they will read that Verizon BPON (broadband PON) is APON (ATM PON) plus TV and voice spectrum additions. Agreed that to first order, the ATM aspect is irrelevant because the ONT converts the connection to standard Ethernet. Negotiation for up time slots and other ATM arcana is hidden from the user.

kirby
With all that said about EPON/APON/BPON and apologies where needed I have one basic question.
The port that is installed in the (Inside the) home or business for internet access is what? Ethernet? If Ethernet what is so different from this Ethernet port then ANY other type/style Ethernet connection. And why would one brand/make/model router be any better then any other brand/make/model giving that all can handle the high connection speeds.

This is where the whole discussion started. Why is one better then the other for a FTTH connection?
--
Shooter Ready--Stand By BEEP ********]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14790141 Sat, 12 Nov 2005 14:13:32 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14788888 Anav : just maybe be in England its EPON and in America its APON.
and in Japan its Ippon (which is the same as two Wazaris) and I bet you thought I was going to say Nippon! ;-)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14788888 Sat, 12 Nov 2005 10:34:48 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14788865 DavidJWood : In that case, I apologise; references I had read indicated that FiOS was EPON, but I was clearly mistaken.

David]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14788865 Sat, 12 Nov 2005 10:29:40 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14788779 Kirby Smith :
said by DavidJWood See Profile :

Whilst I won't word it in the same way as others, I do wish to join in on the questioning as to why FTTH needs any kind of special support.

Verizon's FiOS, probably the most common FTTH system at the moment, is an EPON system - Ethernet over PON. There's no ATM involved in these systems, which is one reason why they're relatively cheap to implement. What's so special on the CPE side of a FTTH install that needs special support in a router, especially in an FTTH system that is based around Ethernet?



David
Some here may wish to spend some time at the Verizon FiOS forum. There they will read that Verizon BPON (broadband PON) is APON (ATM PON) plus TV and voice spectrum additions. Agreed that to first order, the ATM aspect is irrelevant because the ONT converts the connection to standard Ethernet. Negotiation for up time slots and other ATM arcana is hidden from the user.

kirby]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14788779 Sat, 12 Nov 2005 10:10:46 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14788632 jig : maybe we got off on a tangent...

SMBs generally don't need managed switches for the same reason they don't need Gb to the WAN, or really anywhere in the LAN. no bang for the buck.

SMBs seem to be more inclined to move towards putting their DMZ services off-site for availability reasons. what's left is an office lan with some VPN requirements to the off-site location. we might be talking about different flavors of SMBs, but i've experienced a pretty wide cross section and none needed (or wanted to pay for) Gb anywhere. running backups over the network would be faster (not a routing or firewall issue), but day 2 day operations didn't come close to needing it. and running firewall-dmz-firewall-lan doesn't sound like a simple SMB setup to me.

load balancing isn't needed, generally, for SMBs that aren't trying to run a web biz on-site (see above). failover, yes, load balancing no. and i don't know of many SMBs that want 100Mb or more for their WAN connection. most make due with a t1. again, maybe we have different ideas of what an SMB is.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14788632 Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:36:50 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14788361 Mem : I have to agree with maxusa See Profile from what I see within businesses in this area (NY). Residential has also been stepped up recently for cable customers-at home we get 15mbps/2mbps for $45 and can go to 30mbps/2mbps for an additional $10. It's been announced that next summer a new tier of 50mbps will be offered (and business use of this tier will be symmetrical)

The faster speeds are here and the mass market lead time will probably be very short. Those having products available to handle these speeds will grab the lions share of these end users and it could be difficult to make headway against the manufacturers perceived as premium, innovative hardware providers.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14788361 Sat, 12 Nov 2005 08:13:22 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14788280 Shootist : Bump to see next page.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14788280 Sat, 12 Nov 2005 07:31:03 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14788278 maxusa : Regarding SMB needs:
    •SMBs are still price-sensitive and complexity-averse. They rarely buy into L2 switches, let alone L3. We rarely see managed switches used, only in heavy IT shops, or multi-department midmarket customers (closets). But this can be our biased experience and perception. Anyone seen different?•In perimeter network topologies, we need at least 2 firewalls: one facing WAN, and one facing LAN. The DMZ with public servers is in between. This is still preferred in some cases to the ZyWALL approach. Gigabit speeds can be used here.•In load balancing situations, dual 50+ Mbps WANs aggregate to 100+ Mbps on LAN. Gigabit territory again.
I'd like to see Gigabit speeds (100+ Mbps) in ZyWALLs, we can use 'em today.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14788278 Sat, 12 Nov 2005 07:29:33 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14788209 maxusa : Regarding the extra switch:
    •Most residential have 1 to 3 network devices at home. (Not in each room, toilet, and kitchen!)•One or more of those 3 is using wireless. Wired homes are rarity and waste of money. Wireless is cheap. So not all switch ports are occupied.•One or 2 printers. To the most part are dirt-cheap ink jets, so USB plugs to a host computer. If the router is equipped with a USB print-server, fine, maybe. Very few buy a print server.•NAS is super rare, backups are done on CD-Rs if ever.•Gaming consoles are stand-alone, newer ones with NICs are just coming out.•Media extenders are very rare to none.
So this is the typical residential setup eyewitnessed first hand by yours truly in various U.S. cities, big and small. Rarely have I seen the need for another switch... unless kids are learning computers or SOHO.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14788209 Sat, 12 Nov 2005 06:45:18 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14787656 jig : sorry, when i asked "finally, how many consumers are going to be able to buy into fios speeds?" i wasn't talking about ability to pay for it, but availability. i know i don't have fiber available to me, or to any of my various friends and clients, yet (not counting you guys).

as far as providing the bandwidth for the video offerings, it is my belief that the video will be offered on a separate segment, one that physically splits off at the box they bolt onto the side of your house. my guess is that all the equipment required for that will be rented out (like cable boxes or sat STBs) and i'll be very surprised if they expect the house owner to have an installed, routed network that would work with their hardware. imagine the support costs of trying to work with every tom dick and eve who couldn't get their specific firewall to pass the right ports, let alone the bandwidth. if you are sure that everything (both video and data) is supposed to travel through a user supplied firewall to the home, then i'll need a link.

anyway, how useless would it be if all the traffic was on the same segment? since i can't really control my download speed, i'd hose my video every time i updated, right? and p2p would be impossible.

i agree that we bleeding edgers need the throughput, but i'm not so sure about the majority of people who just want something better than dialup. they seem to be a much larger group, in my experience.

as far as the extra switch... well, i have to disagree. anyone who has a wired system typically has more than 4 port needs (one for each room, one for each current pc, one for each printer). and everyone else usually tries to get by with wireless, and that's not yet over 100Mb, especially between computers on the lan.

and as far as using department tiered topology... i thought that was all done with managed switches and such so that only the specialized routing and routing to the wan went through the actual "routers"/firewalls. also, having some experience with setting up internet 2 connections (not hands on, just getting all the ducks in a row), there are lots of points all along the line where 10 and 100Mb bottlenecks have to be bypassed... and those bottlenecks serve the majority of a campus of more than 60,000 (staff, undergrad, grad, wireless, wired). now i'm sure that the campus backplane is huge and solid fiber (at least it has been for a couple years now) but, i mean, come on. how is that similar to the needs of an smb or home? ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14787656 Sat, 12 Nov 2005 01:36:31 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14787259 maxusa : Jim, ZyXEL procrastination baffles me. It does not appear like they try to protect the Z5/35/70 line, as this line is positioned for security, granularity of features, and reliability. Consumer routers are fighting on price, all-in-one (wireless), ease of use, and tech support. ZyXEL does not and shall not sell ZyWALLs to consumers (retail), as it won't sell Prestiges to SOHO/SMB (except, maybe, for VPN telecommuters). Suppose there is a Prestige that does 50+ Mbps, MIMO, etc., for $50. This won't outweigh the appeal of slower ZyWALLs for SMB.

Regarding the Gigabit interfaces. Your situation with an extra switch is not common in the segment. Power users needing lotsa ports account for much smaller group. If built-in switches were useless, most consumer routers would have had a single LAN port. They all have switches.

Also, Gigabit is more relevant when talking about ZyWALLs. Factors like internal deployment (departmental), tiered topology, fiber speeds suggest going Gigabit. It won't cost them a fortune to make the move, however, ZyWALL real problem appears to be the fabric throughput. Remember, anything above 100Mbps is the Gigabit territory.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14787259 Fri, 11 Nov 2005 23:58:22 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14786843 maxusa : The residential broadband ramp-up is/will be fueled by entertainment. All telcos and cable operators have this in their sights. Each HDTV-quality stream will take 6~10Mbps. If they promise PIP and/or several viewers in the house--you get the idea. FTTH, FTTN, or cable must provide minimum 15 Mbps to be suitable for the content delivery. More like 20+ Mbps.

The broadband as we know today (for Internet access) is transforming into a utility-type service. Internet and computer usage will be secondary in bandwidth utilization. However, the need for security only becomes more pertinent. So this is the context for the discussion.

Pure broadband prices ($20, $40, $60) will soon become irrelevant--will drown in the provider's bill for added services. Those who argue that the market share for residential routers capable of 20+ Mbps firewall throughput is/will be insignificant, most likely do not realize the direction. This kind of throughput is needed today, let alone tomorrow. I believe this case is very strong.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14786843 Fri, 11 Nov 2005 22:41:31 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14786663 janderso1 : jig
The Verizon 15Mbps/2Mbps FIOS offering is $50 per month which is $20 per month more than I am currently paying for 1.5Mbps/384Kbps Verizon DSL (my phone line doesn’t qualify for the 3Mbps DSL tier which is the same price).
»www22.verizon.com/FiOSforhome/ch···age.aspx
As far as I know, none of the Zyxel consumer grade support 15Mbps with the firewall on (so far no one has measured the 550). All Zyxel needs to do to support these speeds is to use a faster processor (and possibly faster memory) in the consumer grade products. However, it appears to me that they are using slow processors to protect the sales of the Zywall 5/35/70. I am currently using a Zywall 5 for reasons other than speed.

I use a eight port Netgear gigabit switch (less than $90) so gigabit LAN interface isn’t very important unless it comes at a very low cost.
--
Jim Anderson]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14786663 Fri, 11 Nov 2005 22:11:04 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14786594 bbarrera : Around here 10M/10M is $49.95/month without a contract, and $89.95/month for 20M/20M without a contract. Street prices are better. I'd expect same pricing for FTTH in other areas as it must compete against DSL and Cable.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14786594 Fri, 11 Nov 2005 21:59:01 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14785912 jig : wow, that router really takes a hit on udp performance.. 2 orders of magnitude off of other protocol performance?

Gb lan interfaces would be nice... but even very expensive industrial strength firewalls use 100Mb. i won't fault them for that choice.

it's true that zyxel has some holes in their residential lineup, performance and features wise. does the 550 have throughput as high as the Linksys wrt54gx? if so, are they similar in price?

finally, how many consumers are going to be able to buy into fios speeds? i'm not sure zyxel thinks they will make enough money off that group to support a new line. however, cable speeds seem to be also ramping up... though are they ramping up enough to outstrip the current products?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14785912 Fri, 11 Nov 2005 20:10:37 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14785077 bbarrera : TomsNeworking review of Linksys wrt54gx on this page »www.tomsnetworking.com/Reviews-1···GX-5.php also lists other high throughput routers (not listed is a Netgear routers in the 40M+ club).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14785077 Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:55:33 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14784861 Anav : Not sure but ASUS may have some high throughput units?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14784861 Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:24:08 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14784580 maxusa : ZyXEL's recent foray in the "timely delivery" of modern technologies is predicated on outsourcing 3rd party gear. As such, I do not consider the P-330W et al., as ZyXEL own, and these flukes definitely do not add to ZyXEL competencies in any way.

I said it before... ZyXEL needs a residential router capable of FiOS speeds. Also, ZyXEL needs a SME router with GbE interfaces, allowing speeds above 100Mbps. The commotion has begun, and a major wave of router replacements is about to hit the nation. A router manufacturer that makes products to answer this demand will cash in on this. Hope ZyXEL realizes these opportunities and is going to address them soon.

For now, those loyal to ZyXEL must splurge on Z5/35/70 to use fiber broadband. These are good units, but an overkill for most residential purposes.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14784580 Fri, 11 Nov 2005 16:42:16 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14782912 bbarrera : My biz class DSL is $70/month 2M/256K on a 3 year contract (biz class service, running servers).

Surewest offers 20M/20M ala carte (w/o phone or TV) for $90/month.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14782912 Fri, 11 Nov 2005 12:52:02 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14782892 Shootist : Man send them to Georgia, $49.99 for 20M/20M + $28.00 phone is about the same as what I pay for 3M/384K from BS. But I ain't moven to the left coast.
--
Shooter Ready--Stand By BEEP ********]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14782892 Fri, 11 Nov 2005 12:49:49 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14782698 bbarrera :
said by Shootist See Profile :

To be honest I don't think anyone that has and can afford a 20M/20M connection would be using a lower end home style router. So you may not get a solid answer to that question. Just my thoughts, oh no there I go again with my unbridled enthusiasm for speculation. Please forgive me.
The FTTH service in this area is priced same as DSL and Comcast cable modem service. The Surewest 20M/20M service is $49.99/month (1 year contract) and you have to buy in conjunction with either phone ($28/month) or digital TV ($47/month). My neighbors have 20M/20M and it is the real deal.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14782698 Fri, 11 Nov 2005 12:21:07 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14782653 bbarrera :
said by mozerd See Profile :

I am not sure that any of the ZyXEL Router products -- regardless of class -- actually provide support for High-Speed Routing throughput using Fiber Optic service for the home ---- or as it is properly know --- Fiber To The Home service [FTTH] ... it would be worth while to get ZyXEL to clarify this specific type of service as being properly supported in its product line.

The only Router that I am familiar with that does specifically provide support for FIOS [FTTH] is made by Buffalo called the WZR-G108 Router which Router incorporates Airgo Networks True MIMO technology.
Wow, are you saying that my successful use of a Zywall 70 as an interior router, where it delivers 40Mbps firewall throughput and bandwidth management, isn't enough to handle the lower speed 20M/20M FTTH service offered in my area? I couldn't find a single datasheet or technical review on the Buffalo product that showed firewall throughput. The Buffalo page focuses on MIMO with a quick unsubstantiated marketing blurb on FTTH. MIMO is unrelated to routing/firewall performance.

I know the Zywall 5/35/70 series is capable of handling the routing/firewall performance needed for FTTH.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14782653 Fri, 11 Nov 2005 12:13:29 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14782584 bbarrera : Yes, comparing Intel IXP processors with Airgo WLAN chips is comparing apples to oranges. David should consider a career in marketing.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14782584 Fri, 11 Nov 2005 12:01:03 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14781328 Anav : Most interesting thread, you sheet disturber BB!

To answer your question, the P334WT or P334W with firewall off will do ya fine LOL. I am truly waiting for a P3XX router that will handle higher throughput with FIREWALL ON, and perhaps even a dual wan model. I believe my input to the Gods above is mostly ignored though. I do note incremental progress such as the

ZyXEL USA
P330W - move towards linux and untold possibilities
X-550 - innovative combination of unique technologies from others in a market timely manner (at least more so than in the past)

ZyXEL Global
P320W - doubled current NAT total to 4096 for zynos home fireware (x-550 has 16000)
P320W - port restricted cone nat more suited for VoIP

Looking for more info on MIMO stuff led me to these URLs
»80211n.wifinetnews.com/
»wifinetnews.com/archives/cat_80211n.html

Seems like while the more known stakeholders corner the committees AIRGO is alreadly putting bacon on the table, via belkin, samsung and 3rd generation products......

Guess it depends on which side of the bread you put your mozerd mustard On...
--
Ain't nuthin but the blues! "Albert Collins". Leave your troubles at the door! "Pepe Peregil" De Sevilla. Just Don't Wifi without WPA, "Yul Brenner" LlamaWorks Equipment]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14781328 Fri, 11 Nov 2005 08:43:45 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14780974 dslpartner : I was just trying to debat the same way as you do.

I would still very much like to know what you think that buffalo device does that is better than any other device for FTTH.

In regards to my knowledge about Airgo, I just posted what I knew, I never claimed to know anything about Airgo. Which you claim to do, so I would really like to know why you think its the superior solution.

For the sage of argument if I had a 20M/20M internet connection, I would use a Cisco 3750 or something as my router, expensive yes, but I could write it of as a company expense.
--
The real downside of GIT may be that _my_ way of doing things is quite possibly very rare. But it clearly is the only right way. The fact that everybody else does it some other way only means that they are wrong. -Linus]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14780974 Fri, 11 Nov 2005 06:47:23 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14780950 Shootist :
said by bbarrera See Profile :

Wow, did I toss a grenade into this thread?

Allow me to remove "wireless" from my original question and rephrase as "What is a good Zyxel consumer router that can handle 20M/20M speed" and all it needs is Ethernet WAN interface (standard DHCP client or static IP). I'm not interested in a discussion on wireless. I'm interested in a relatively low cost Zyxel router capable of handling high WAN speeds.
No not really. I think the grenade was tossed by mozerd See Profile.

To be honest I don't think anyone that has and can afford a 20M/20M connection would be using a lower end home style router. So you may not get a solid answer to that question. Just my thoughts, oh no there I go again with my unbridled enthusiasm for speculation. Please forgive me.
--
Shooter Ready--Stand By BEEP ********]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14780950 Fri, 11 Nov 2005 06:35:17 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14780938 Shootist : In all your post you still give NO explanation of how this FTTH service is any different from a normal ethernet connection and just how the Buffalo product and Airgo work better with FTTH then ANY OTHER make or model router. If a router can handle the throughput of the higher speed WAN connection just what makes the Buffalo and Airgo system better.
I think it is you that is extrapolating. And we're NOT talking wireless here.
--
Shooter Ready--Stand By BEEP ********]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14780938 Fri, 11 Nov 2005 06:26:06 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14780895 mozerd :
said by dslpartner See Profile :

[A} Then I am sure you will be happy to know that the ZyXEL ZyWALL's uses Intel IXP processors and by your statements should be better than the airgo solution. [B] Then again I tought airgo only did WLAN.
{A] Your creative extrapolation of my statements is certainly an embellishment of fact ... but, you are being creative. How IXP tech is exploited I assume escapes your insightful review as does you cursory knowledge of the work that Airgo Networks is advancing in the field of networking technologies.
[B] Review [A] and that certainly is That.

You are most welcome to your extrapolations. :-)
--
David Mozer
IT-Expert on Call
Information Technology for Home and Business]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14780895 Fri, 11 Nov 2005 05:53:06 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14780779 dslpartner :
said by mozerd See Profile :

If your are sincerely interested in this area then consider Intel’s IXP technology as a clue to how dramatic improvements will be made in network processing technologies. Intel is a competitor to Airgo … Intel is Goliath while Airgo is little David. :-) I am betting on little David.
Then I am sure you will be happy to know that the ZyXEL ZyWALL's uses Intel IXP processors and by your statements should be better than the airgo solution.

Then again I tought airgo only did WLAN.
--
The real downside of GIT may be that _my_ way of doing things is quite possibly very rare. But it clearly is the only right way. The fact that everybody else does it some other way only means that they are wrong. -Linus]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14780779 Fri, 11 Nov 2005 04:23:33 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14780401 bbarrera : Wow, did I toss a grenade into this thread?

Allow me to remove "wireless" from my original question and rephrase as "What is a good Zyxel consumer router that can handle 20M/20M speed" and all it needs is Ethernet WAN interface (standard DHCP client or static IP). I'm not interested in a discussion on wireless. I'm interested in a relatively low cost Zyxel router capable of handling high WAN speeds.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14780401 Fri, 11 Nov 2005 01:27:35 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14778388 mozerd :
said by DavidJWood See Profile :

What I see in this thread is the suggestion that many of us are maybe giving the wrong advice to posters who already have FTTH by suggesting devices like the Z5 and Z35. If I'm amongst those giving misguided advice, I want to know why.
Which is why in my first post in this thread I suggested that it would be worth while to get ZyXEL to clarify this specific type of service as being properly supported in its product line.

And based on my field experience having dome many commercial installations the technology advantage that Airgo Networks provide is --- in crude terms --- the real deal. :-)
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David Mozer
IT-Expert on Call
Information Technology for Home and Business]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14778388 Thu, 10 Nov 2005 20:01:35 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14778285 jig : interesting. i've wondered if the iptv thing would require you to have your home router before or after a connection to whatever gets the video to your tv. i suppose a device that was optimized to pass through that kind of bandwidth to a specific device that was segregated from your home lan might count as FTTH "support".

but maybe i'm confused. the fiber comes to your home, they have a box they bolt to the side of your house that can have multiple outputs (and takes fiber as an input)... probably one of those is specifically for iptv (and can be switch/branched out to different tv) while another is slated for connection to your router (and another goes to your pots system etc).

shrug, i'm blathering. nothing i've read indicates that you might want something more than high throughput when connecting your lan to ftth.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14778285 Thu, 10 Nov 2005 19:47:36 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14778253 mozerd : No special Interface is required for FTTH -- There are many different way to process/mange packets being pumped through the pipe at the Routers WAN port – Efficiency in processing the packet stream(s) is highly dependent on the Type/Quality/Technology of the processor [or chain of co-processors] being utilized on the Router board.

On the Router’s Wan side FTTH does require much greater processor efficiency in managing the massive and varied data streams – and if the objective is to be able to properly enjoy simultaneous bandwidth-intensive applications such as high-definition video, Voice-over-IP (VoIP) telephony, streaming audio, and online gaming then QoS is inevitably tied-into the equation..

Airgo Networks have developed specific [and currently unique] hardware that implements superior processing chains to better exploit QoS and Security … and it so happens that Buffalo is using the built-in hardware advantage whereas Linksys, Belkin and Netgear have chosen not to do so as of yet – but that may change very shortly. On the Enterprise side SOHOware does fully exploit the Airgo advantage.

If your are sincerely interested in this area then consider Intel’s IXP technology as a clue to how dramatic improvements will be made in network processing technologies. Intel is a competitor to Airgo … Intel is Goliath while Airgo is little David. :-) I am betting on little David.
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David Mozer
IT-Expert on Call
Information Technology for Home and Business]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14778253 Thu, 10 Nov 2005 19:43:11 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14778116 DavidJWood : Whilst I won't word it in the same way as others, I do wish to join in on the questioning as to why FTTH needs any kind of special support.

Verizon's FiOS, probably the most common FTTH system at the moment, is an EPON system - Ethernet over PON. There's no ATM involved in these systems, which is one reason why they're relatively cheap to implement. What's so special on the CPE side of a FTTH install that needs special support in a router, especially in an FTTH system that is based around Ethernet?

I could accept that higher speed connections potentially need different optimisation to get the best from them compared to the lower speed WAN connections most of us are used to. I can also accept, to an extent, that different provider's networks may require different optimisation to get the best from them - though that is not necessarily linked to the underlying technology in use.

However, that's different to what seems to be being claimed in this thread, which is that all existing routers lacking a certain technology are unsuitable for FTTH use.

Once the presentation is Ethernet (give or take PPPoE or similar), routers have so far worked pretty much the same whether the underlying connection is cable, ADSL, SDSL, T1/E1, frame relay or a direct Ethernet connection in the likes of a co-lo. I'm finding it a little hard to believe FTTH changes this so fundamentally, though am willing to be educated if I'm wrong.

Overall, can we have some facts and/or references, please? Bits of this thread have a hint of "I know what I'm talking about, you don't, so go away". At the very least, I want to be in a position to separate marketing bluster from true technical advantage, and this thread leaves me anywhere except that at the moment.

To take what I believe is a somewhat parallel issue, my views over TRUE MIMO, WE HAVE THE BEST MIMO EVER and NEW UPDATED TRUE MIMO - BUY NOTHING ELSE AS IT'S NOT WORTHY OF BEING CALLED MIMO (and all the other marketing that is around on 'next generation wireless LAN' products) differs from others that have posted in this thread. Yes - I accept that there are some potential technical and even real world advantages in many of these products. However, at the moment, what we have is a mass of non-standards, where not even all the products using the same chipset have the same wireless feature set, and the chipset vendors are updating and upgrading those feature sets all the time.

Frankly, I can't be bothered with it. I don't want to spend a fortune to land up with the wireless equivalent of Video 2000 or Betamax - products that may be technically superior, but don't win out in the race to become a standard and for which support disappears all too quickly. Whilst I know it's imperfect and not at the bleeding edge of technology, I'm sticking with 802.11g for now, especially as I've taken the conscious decision to wire the house, almost every device on my network is wired, and what use I make of wireless rarely needs high throughput. My installed wireless system does what I want and need it to, and I believe that nobody has the right to question that judgment.

Returning to the FTTH router situation, I believe my ZyWALL 35 should be powerful enough for many FTTH connections, including some of the faster products that are available. Should I be putting pressure on ZyXEL to add some features to the firmware so that I could make best use of FTTH in the future? Let's avoid one complication by assuming the FTTH is IPv4, not IPv6, based.

What I see in this thread is the suggestion that many of us are maybe giving the wrong advice to posters who already have FTTH by suggesting devices like the Z5 and Z35. If I'm amongst those giving misguided advice, I want to know why.

The FTTH Router mentioned in this thread is one for which I can find a statement on the vendor's product web page, which is, after all marketing - "High-Speed Routing Throughput (Supports FTTH)". This statement is repeated all around the web in the numerous web stores that sell that product. However, I can't find any reference as to what this technology is, what it does, or why it makes this product superior to all other routers. It sounds like so many of the other statements put around by marketers.

ZyXEL are not immune - they've been plugging Unified Threat Management like it's the best thing to hit networking for many years. When you understand it's a card you can slip into some ZyWALLs which gives you subscription router based IDP and AV, also there's a new subscription based AS service, you can then weigh whether it has value for you or not. Frankly, there's a lot of marketing guff got into networking these days, and I'm not sure it's helpful to anyone, much as I appreciate that the majority of consumers aren't in a position to weigh technical matters themselves and all companies want to do what they can to get market share.

I want to understand whether there's value in the Buffalo product beyond the marketing. Does it relate to a real technical advantage that other manufacturers should be looking at trying to emulate and surpass, or is it just a logo on a box to try to sell in what is likely to be a growth market?

David]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14778116 Thu, 10 Nov 2005 19:22:47 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14776573 Shootist :
said by mozerd See Profile :

said by Shootist See Profile :

I think even the FTTH uses a ethernet connection whether you have to logon with a PPPoE system or you are assigned a static IP or use DHCP for the WAN port IP address the ZyWall5/35/70 will connect and handle the throughput of that service. Not sure for the lower end models, as far as throughput, but all should still be able to connect to the ISP.
The issue is not the ability to connect to the ISP ... no problem whatsoever connecting ---- the ISSUE Mr. SHOOTIST is QoS and how the bandwidth is exploited for different classes of traffic ... perhaps you should not shoot so fast or as far as you have with your unbridled enthusiasm for speculation. :-)
OK I have reviewed this thread and see NO mention of QoS in any shape or form except for your last post, I.E. the one I quoted. Just what seems to be your problem as I see no unbridled enthusiasm for speculation on my part. My comments were to your statement,

said by mozerd See Profile :

I am not sure that any of the ZyXEL Router products -- regardless of class -- actually provide support for High-Speed Routing throughput using Fiber Optic service for the home ---- or as it is properly know --- Fiber To The Home service [FTTH] ... it would be worth while to get ZyXEL to clarify this specific type of service as being properly supported in its product line.
Which again mentions nothing about QoS and just how do you know NONE of the Zyxel routers handle this correctly with the FTTH service. I think you may need some sleep and a few shots of alcohol to kill that bug.
Really have a nice day.
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Shooter Ready--Stand By BEEP ********]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14776573 Thu, 10 Nov 2005 15:47:23 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14776016 dslpartner :
said by mozerd See Profile :

The issue is not the ability to connect to the ISP ... no problem whatsoever connecting ---- the ISSUE Mr. SHOOTIST is QoS and how the bandwidth is exploited for different classes of traffic ... perhaps you should not shoot so fast or as far as you have with your unbridled enthusiasm for speculation. :-)
So what does this actually mean then?

said by mozerd See Profile :

I am not sure that any of the ZyXEL Router products -- regardless of class -- actually provide support for High-Speed Routing throughput using Fiber Optic service for the home ---- or as it is properly know --- Fiber To The Home service [FTTH] ... it would be worth while to get ZyXEL to clarify this specific type of service as being properly supported in its product line.

The only Router that I am familiar with that does specifically provide support for FIOS [FTTH] is made by Buffalo called the WZR-G108 Router which Router incorporates Airgo Networks True MIMO technology.
I see no mention of QoS in your first statement, to me it looks you think FTTH got some special thing (interface?) that needs to be supported on the device you connect to it.

Its all about what kind of protocols you use for transferring the data and your Buffalo Device does not do anything else than Ethernet over standard 100Base-TX, there is no mention of any special Fiber ports, like the Allied RG600 series can do.

And from my interpretation of the info in the link you provided, its just marketing speak saying that this box got enough oomph to not slow down your FTTH connection.

And if you mean its about QoS, what kind of special FTTH QoS stuff do you belive the Buffalo device got, that makes it work better than other devices?

--
The real downside of GIT may be that _my_ way of doing things is quite possibly very rare. But it clearly is the only right way. The fact that everybody else does it some other way only means that they are wrong. -Linus]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14776016 Thu, 10 Nov 2005 14:21:36 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14775914 mozerd :
said by Shootist See Profile :

I think even the FTTH uses a ethernet connection whether you have to logon with a PPPoE system or you are assigned a static IP or use DHCP for the WAN port IP address the ZyWall5/35/70 will connect and handle the throughput of that service. Not sure for the lower end models, as far as throughput, but all should still be able to connect to the ISP.
The issue is not the ability to connect to the ISP ... no problem whatsoever connecting ---- the ISSUE Mr. SHOOTIST is QoS and how the bandwidth is exploited for different classes of traffic ... perhaps you should not shoot so fast or as far as you have with your unbridled enthusiasm for speculation. :-)
--
David Mozer
IT-Expert on Call
Information Technology for Home and Business]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14775914 Thu, 10 Nov 2005 14:06:55 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14775842 Shootist : I think even the FTTH uses a ethernet connection whether you have to logon with a PPPoE system or you are assigned a static IP or use DHCP for the WAN port IP address the ZyWall5/35/70 will connect and handle the throughput of that service. Not sure for the lower end models, as far as throughput, but all should still be able to connect to the ISP.
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Shooter Ready--Stand By BEEP ********]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14775842 Thu, 10 Nov 2005 13:57:22 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14775786 mozerd :
said by bassetts See Profile :

Is there a low end zyxel router that can handel the 5meg/2meg speed with the sp firewall on? I know the zywall 5 but that is a little much.
I am not sure that any of the ZyXEL Router products -- regardless of class -- actually provide support for High-Speed Routing throughput using Fiber Optic service for the home ---- or as it is properly know --- Fiber To The Home service [FTTH] ... it would be worth while to get ZyXEL to clarify this specific type of service as being properly supported in its product line.

The only Router that I am familiar with that does specifically provide support for FIOS [FTTH] is made by Buffalo called the WZR-G108 Router which Router incorporates Airgo Networks True MIMO technology.
--
David Mozer
IT-Expert on Call
Information Technology for Home and Business]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14775786 Thu, 10 Nov 2005 13:48:59 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14774936 bbarrera : We've got fiber in town and people are getting anywhere from 5M/5M to 25M/30M speeds. What is a good Zyxel wireless router to recommend that supports those speeds? Unfortunately I've been focused on Zyxel's biz class products and haven't been tracking Zyxel's consumer routers.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14774936 Thu, 10 Nov 2005 11:50:25 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14774839 Anav : Still waiting for JP to report back!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14774839 Thu, 10 Nov 2005 11:36:38 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14774662 pende_tim : Anav,
Did you get any throuput results yet from testing the wireless on the ZyXEL X-550 yet?
I am curios as I have a Linksys WRT54G that is cutting my cable connection back to 4.5 Meg on wireless. (Wired is full speed so I know the connection is good)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14774662 Thu, 10 Nov 2005 11:11:37 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14703343 Anav : There are many more choices. My fault for assuming you were thinking ZyWALLs!!
Yes the P334WT with firewall oFF does about 28Mb, with firewall on your looking at 6-8Mb.

The new kid ZyXEL X-550, I have no idea. It has some nice stats like 16,000 concurrent sessions, but unknown on throughput. Will endeavour to find out tomorrow.
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Ain't nuthin but the blues! "Albert Collins". Leave your troubles at the door! "Pepe Peregil" De Sevilla. Just Don't Wifi without WPA, "Yul Brenner" LlamaWorks Equipment]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14703343 Mon, 31 Oct 2005 22:02:21 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14703307 bassetts : How about 334wt?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14703307 Mon, 31 Oct 2005 21:58:44 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14703300 Shootist :
said by Anav See Profile :

The ZyWALL 2 can handle those speeds with the firewall on.
Approx 6Mb one way.
BUT bite the bullet and buy a Z5.
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Shooter Ready--Stand By BEEP ********]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14703300 Mon, 31 Oct 2005 21:58:05 EDT Re: Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14703245 Anav : The ZyWALL 2 can handle those speeds with the firewall on.
Approx 6Mb one way.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14703245 Mon, 31 Oct 2005 21:52:19 EDT Zyxel wireless router with FIOS 5meg/2meg http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14702600 bassetts : Is there a low end zyxel router that can handel the 5meg/2meg speed with the sp firewall on? I know the zywall 5 but that is a little much. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14702600 Mon, 31 Oct 2005 20:39:11 EDT