Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic in Canadian Chat

Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic in Canadian Chat http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r14409845 en Wed, 25 Nov 2009 03:44:46 EDT Wed, 25 Nov 2009 03:44:46 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14470361 Yoda2009 :

said by americanada

:

The M3 has nothing on the SRT8 IMO.

That statement is so completely wrong. Your brash ignorance towards the superiority of German cars is astounding. Who cares about the price if you can afford it? I suppose you can't, but look at it this way. More intelligence = better job = more money = better car.

The SRT-8 handles like a Rolls Royce. The M3 is a serious performance car. The M3 is far and high above your ugly 300C.

This ends my participation in this discussion. Enjoy your domestic cars...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14470361 Thu, 29 Sep 2005 18:08:08 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14460182 34140721 : Osme

quote:
Kenmo, have you ever heard of the Le Mans races?

Osme...If you look at the results from this link... You will see the Corvette C6R finished first in the GT1 class and 5th overall...

»www.eurosport.co.uk/home/pages/v···01.shtml

The Audi R8 is in the LM1 class of which it won and finished first overall... I believe the LM1 is a clas for true race cars while the GT classes are for production cars that are raced...

Also the Corvette finished first in it's class last year at LeMans (2004)...

quote:
»www.seriouswheels.com/top-2004-C···C5-R.htm

The successful endurance sports car racing program closed out the Corvette C5 era with a notable 35th victory in 55 races. Corvette won every single American Le Mans Series event in 2004 as well as the 24 Hours of Le Mans.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14460182 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 11:52:08 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14459060 34140721 : Did Bruce Springsteen or the Beach Boys ever sing about Civics, Corollas or Celicas...????

Need I say more... LOL.... :-)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14459060 Wed, 28 Sep 2005 08:07:17 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14445832 mr weather : Well... except for the pre-1994 Mustangs that had a nasty habit of the rear-end getting loose at high speeds. ;)
--
"It's all coming down!!" - Mike Holmes]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14445832 Mon, 26 Sep 2005 13:10:22 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14445776 34140721 : Most cops will tell you front wheel drive cars make poor hi-speed pursuit cars... My cousin an RCMP officer in New Brunswick tells me for the highway they prefer the Crown Vics]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14445776 Mon, 26 Sep 2005 13:02:05 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14445512 AR : The government has a lot of money to waste? If they were as price conscious as Joe Schmoe, cops'd be driving Accords. ;)
--
The Confederacy was an Ownership Society.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14445512 Mon, 26 Sep 2005 12:24:11 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14445081 34140721 : As I've said before I probably go to more car shows in an year then most posters here and I hang arround with mechanics and car fanatics...

At most car shows I see lots of domestics that are 20-30-40-50-60 years of age... I also see a fair representation of Vws, Porsches, Mercedes and on occassion I see the odd Ferrari (of course they are not as plentiful as Chevies).... BUT I don't see any good representation of Datsun 240Zs, Datsun 260Zs, Toyota Celicas YET I do see good numbers of Chevies (Camaros, Vegas, Novas, Corvettes, Fords (Mustangs, Torinos), Pontiacs (Firebirds) of that era...

Ever wonder why fleet companies (taxi, police) use Ford Crown Vics or Chevy Impalas.... and not equivalent imports...??? My brother (fleet mechanic) tells me if the domestics hold up much better over the imports when it comes to 24/7 abuse of fleet drivers...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14445081 Mon, 26 Sep 2005 11:13:16 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14443337 AR : Hey! My Galant is in that graph! :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14443337 Mon, 26 Sep 2005 00:49:18 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14443232 americanada :

said by osme

:

Haven't we already discussed top speed limiters on German cars? The M3 is capable of faster than 175mph.

Show me where. From what I have seen, owners who have been able to disable the limiter have gotten into the 160's max.

said by osme

:

The M3 is known for stellar handling, partly due to its 50.3/49.7 % front-rear weight distribution. It's a 6 speed manual or SMG manual, and can comfortably fit 5 passengers, like the 300. You keep talking about racing in a straight line. This car would beat the 300 in any race, drag or not. The high rev range only helps the acceleration. Peak power is less important than peak torque, and having torque sustained throughout the rev range, which the M3 does.

The SRT8 also has a very well rounded torque curve, and gobs more of it than the M3.

said by osme

:

The M3's styling is like the 3 series, which still look better than the hilariously ugly 300. The front end of the 300 is different, but the side looks like a barn door - the windows are like 6" tall - and the rear end is no more interesting. It's still a boat.

Only in your opinion. To many others, it is a well balanced and agile car, especially in SRT8 form, which is what we are comparing the M3 to, since they are in the same price range - with the SRT8 still being thousands less.

said by osme

:

You say the M3 isn't better, but you can only justify saying that after saying its stats are meaningless. Make up your mind! If a slightly better 0-60 isn't actually better, top speed isn't critical, and you don't care about ever going around a corner, tell me: what does make a car good?

The stats are important - what's not is a .1 second difference especially when that .1 second costs considerably more. I still say the SRT8 is faster top end. Through a 1/4 mile it would be very close. The M3 weighs at least 500 lbs less (which is what I meant about being a smaller car - hell you can fit 6 into a Civic but that doesn't mean it's the same size as a Crown Vic, does it???).

Why don't we throw in the fact that the SRT8 can do the 600 foot slalom at 1 mph faster than the M3 too?

The M3 has nothing on the SRT8 IMO.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14443232 Mon, 26 Sep 2005 00:24:41 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14443181 americanada : Nice graph. I see the Audi ranks right up there with KIA. Great car. :uhh:]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14443181 Mon, 26 Sep 2005 00:11:40 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14442504 dirtyjeffer :

said by osme

:

If I was about to shell out a bit over $70,000 for a new car, I'd choose an Audi S4 for $1000 less than the Cadillac, or a Mercedes C55 AMG for about $3000 more. For that money, you shouldn't have to live with an ugly car. Going by performance specs though, the Cadillac does have them beat.

while the S4 and C55 are nice cars, both of those brands scored WELL below Cadillac in terms of quality...and since this thread is about quality, if i was going to drop $70,000 on a new car, i would like to think it would get better reliability than 27 and 31 out of 37 on the chart...and Ford finish right behind BMW...in fact, when you look at the brands above the industry average, you see domestics are well represented...i agree, the same wouldn't have been so 15 years ago.
--
"The only thing more greedy than a corporation, are its customers."

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14442504 Sun, 25 Sep 2005 22:09:47 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14442425 dirtyjeffer : when i first saw the CTS, i thought they were ugly too...but, after seeing them a few times, i don't find them that bad...now, i have never been in one (although, my FIL is currently looking at one), so i can't comment on the fit and finish inside, but from the article i linked to, and from others i have read on the net, it seems to get high praise on all aspects (quality, performance, enjoyment, "value").
--
"The only thing more greedy than a corporation, are its customers."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14442425 Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:59:14 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14442308 osme :

said by dirtyjeffer

:

what about a Cadillac CTS-V?

it is a domestic vehicle loaded with performance and class.

»www.canadiandriver.com/articles/···ts-v.htm

That's a much better suggestion than a Chrysler 300C. The CTS-V is a bit cheaper than its competitors and supposedly handles well. Its biggest problems are that it's hideous on the outside and poor quality on the inside. "It was designed by a man who only had a ruler."

If I was about to shell out a bit over $70,000 for a new car, I'd choose an Audi S4 for $1000 less than the Cadillac, or a Mercedes C55 AMG for about $3000 more. For that money, you shouldn't have to live with an ugly car. Going by performance specs though, the Cadillac does have them beat.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14442308 Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:41:36 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14442277 34140721 : Sorry Wolfie but disc brakes were invented by an American Elmer Ambrose Sperry in 1898... He actually built an electric (yeah that's right electric) race car in 1898 with disc brakes on the front wheel...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14442277 Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:37:13 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14442133 dirtyjeffer : what about a Cadillac CTS-V?

it is a domestic vehicle loaded with performance and class.

»www.canadiandriver.com/articles/···ts-v.htm
--
"The only thing more greedy than a corporation, are its customers."

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14442133 Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:16:51 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14441633 osme :

said by americanada

said by osme

:

Which is better? The M3 will get more looks and performance-wise is superior, and the Chrysler is a little cheaper. I guess it'll have a lot to do with whether or not you drive everywhere in a straight line. :p

Haven't we already discussed top speed limiters on German cars? The M3 is capable of faster than 175mph.

The M3 is known for stellar handling, partly due to its 50.3/49.7 % front-rear weight distribution. It's a 6 speed manual or SMG manual, and can comfortably fit 5 passengers, like the 300. You keep talking about racing in a straight line. This car would beat the 300 in any race, drag or not. The high rev range only helps the acceleration. Peak power is less important than peak torque, and having torque sustained throughout the rev range, which the M3 does.

The M3's styling is like the 3 series, which still look better than the hilariously ugly 300. The front end of the 300 is different, but the side looks like a barn door - the windows are like 6" tall - and the rear end is no more interesting. It's still a boat.

You say the M3 isn't better, but you can only justify saying that after saying its stats are meaningless. Make up your mind! If a slightly better 0-60 isn't actually better, top speed isn't critical, and you don't care about ever going around a corner, tell me: what does make a car good?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14441633 Sun, 25 Sep 2005 20:04:19 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14441150 americanada :

said by osme

The M3 is .1 second quicker 0-60 (and doesn't achieve peak power until almost 8000 rpm, how many people are going to push that?), and the SRT8 has top speed of almost 175 mph (faster than the M3 by a longshot). Also, the M3 is a considerably smaller car than the 300C. Apart from that, it looks like any other BMW out there while the 300C's styling is new and a lot bolder than the M3.

I don't see where the BMW is superior, anywhere. I think you have been brainwashed by too many commercials.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14441150 Sun, 25 Sep 2005 18:46:54 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14440657 34140721 : Wolfie...I guess you never heard of the 1930's Cord made in America... The Cord 810 was front wheel drive... Cord was later affiliated with Auburn and Duesenberg car companies...

»www.hfmgv.org/exhibits/showroom/···ord.html
»www.automaven.com/FAQs/faqs.html

Oldsmobile had front wheel drive in the 1960's
»encyclopedia.classicoldsmobile.c···/66.html

However most would argue if front wheel drive is good why don't Ferraris, Corvettes, Vipers, Indy cars, F1 cars have front wheel drive... Why aren't tractor trailer trucks front wheel drive...???

Disc brakes... Studebaker had disc brakes in the 1950's... Chevy had Corvettes in the 1960s that were all wheel disc brakes...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14440657 Sun, 25 Sep 2005 17:03:00 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14440170 Wolfie00 : ...and on the subject of innovation, the M3 is available with sequential manual gearshift (SMG). I don't know of any American car (off the racetrack, that is) that can offer that.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14440170 Sun, 25 Sep 2005 15:23:31 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14440139 osme : To my knowledge, there aren't any. Closest I know of would be a BMW M3, with better numbers and only $8900 more. Worth the money in my opinion, since you get a car that's renowned for performance and handling, is stunning to look at, will hold its value reasonably well and is very well made by qualified Germans. It comes with more toys inside, and even more as added options. Oh, and it does all that with half the engine displacement.
»www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/M/M3Coup···data.htm

Looking closer at the SRT8 I'm finding that it only comes in 3 paint colours, and only in automatic. In fact, to get the same trim level as the base M3, the Chrysler moves up to about $43,400 US. Only $5,500 cheaper, but as is standard with nearly all Chryslers in recent memory, you'll end up paying the difference later when the warranty is up and things start to go wrong, and when the depreciation kicks in.

Which is better? The M3 will get more looks and performance-wise is superior, and the Chrysler is a little cheaper. I guess it'll have a lot to do with whether or not you drive everywhere in a straight line. :p]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14440139 Sun, 25 Sep 2005 15:17:49 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14440090 Wolfie00 : This thread was about "best made cars: foreign vs. domestic". It seems to have wandered off into a discussion of engine power and top speed, which has nothing to do with what most people would want in their driveway or why they would want it.

It's like a discussion from the 50's, which reminds me that one of the historical features of traditional American cars was their ability to accelerate much faster than they could stop. That was because hulking great engines were what sold. No macho North American male was going to call over his neighbour and go, hey, have a look at the brakes on this baby! Until only a few decades ago, American cars didn't even have disc brakes, just the ol' drums that were good for a couple of seconds of serious braking before they heated up and started to fade. Until Ralph Nader came along, most domestic cars were little better than death-traps. It was the Europeans who introduced innovations like disc brakes, front-wheel drive, fuel injection, and diesel engines, while the American car companies continued to be run by bean-counters and marketing types catering to the lowest common denominator of North American taste. North American cars are much, much better than they used to be, and some are pretty damn good, but there still a lot of focus on the superflous whiz-bang factor like styling, while most of the useful innovation still seems to be coming from overseas.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14440090 Sun, 25 Sep 2005 15:08:41 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14440058 34140721 : At our local July show & shine at the Clayton Park Canadian Tire the owner of Eastcoast Speed showed up with two Vipers, a really tricked out Infinity sport coupe, a Ferrari Testarosa and a Ford GT40...

I spoke with him briefly and he said he's had just about everything from highend Porsches, Ferraris, Vipers, Acura NSX and nothing can come close to the 40 year old GT40... I asked did he mean from a pleasure or performance perspective... He said both, but no car he has ever owned or driven (mentioned above) could out perform, out corner this GT40... Not too shabby for a car 40 years of age...

I was so blown away by the GT40 and the detail of the Infinity the only photo I got of the Testarosa is the wheel of it you can see in the Infinity photo...

1966 Ford GT40
1966 Ford GT40
1966 Ford GT40
2003 Viper SRT-10
2005 Infinity G35 Sport Coupe
2005 InfinitySport Coupe

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14440058 Sun, 25 Sep 2005 15:02:13 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14440016 34140721 : Osme...of course I've heard of the LeMans 24 hour endurance race... I remember when Ferrari snubbed their noses at Ford and Ford decided to teach Ferrari a lesson and built the Ford GT40 which won Lemans for 4 years in a row finishing 1st, 2nd and third... Then Ford retired the GT40... Until this year...

»www.pistonheads.com/milestones/gt40.htm

And Yes I love Ferraris BUT I love GT40s more...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14440016 Sun, 25 Sep 2005 14:54:05 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14439874 americanada :

said by osme

:

]For governor-free top speeds, they aren't in the same class, though both their true top speeds are likely similar. The Audi is a combination of precision, performance, reliability and comfort, while the 300C is just a platform with a mostly-plastic interior and a big engine at the front. Compare it to any German car with similar engine displacement and get back to me. :p

How about you show me a sub $40,000 German car that has these kind of numbers and then I'll get back to you?

General Information
Price: $39,995
Curb Weight: 4160 lbs
Layout: Front-Engine/RWD
Transmission: 5-Speed Automatic
Engine Type: Guess
Displacement: 6059 cc
Horsepower: 425 bhp @ 6200 rpm
Torque: 420 lb-ft @ 4800 rpm
Redline: 6400 rpm
Performance
0-60 mph: 4.9 sec
0-100 mph: 11.7 sec
Quarter Mile: 13.2 sec @ 108 mph
Skidpad: .88g
Top Speed: --- mph
Braking, 60-0 mph: 113 ft
Slalom Speed: 67.3 mph
--
* AMD64 3500+ * ASUS A8N-E * 1GB DDR400 * ATI X850 XT PE 256MB PCIe * Dual L90D+ 19" LCDs * ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14439874 Sun, 25 Sep 2005 14:29:09 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14439803 digitalfutur :

said by osme

:

The only place where Domestics have an advantage is with price, and only sometimes. They're beat when it comes to reliability, quality, appearance, performance, and now as you've made me point out, foreign supercars are also superior.

If only the data supported that statement...
--
Less said takes longer. Walk the talk.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14439803 Sun, 25 Sep 2005 14:14:36 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14439786 americanada : And of course the 300C has the same type of limiter, but it can still only do 130, right?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14439786 Sun, 25 Sep 2005 14:10:58 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14439762 osme :

said by americanada

said by osme

:

Even in a straight line on a highway, that A4 with a small V6 would surge past your top speed of 130mph and on to an electronically limited top speed of 155mph.

For governor-free top speeds, they aren't in the same class, though both their true top speeds are likely similar. The Audi is a combination of precision, performance, reliability and comfort, while the 300C is just a platform with a mostly-plastic interior and a big engine at the front. Compare it to any German car with similar engine displacement and get back to me. :p]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14439762 Sun, 25 Sep 2005 14:06:33 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14439645 osme :

said by digitalfutur

:

How about a 1000 HP V-16 Caddy?

Specs:

»www.gmcanada.com/english/vehicle···pec.html

If we're going to get ridiculous, I'll recommend the Bugatti Veyron, which is actually going into production and isn't just a concept that will never be made. It's owned by VW and it recently set a new speed record for production cars.

Kenmo, have you ever heard of the Le Mans races? It's a 24 hour endurance race, the winner is the one with the most laps at the end. Take note that the past results are mostly Porsche, with the odd Mercedes, McLaren, BMW, etc. Overwhelmingly German results, only one result that's not European in fact, and yes, they have racing versions of the Corvette and Viper in it as well. The Audi winners were all in the legendary Audi R8, an amazing piece of engineering that hasn't broken down once, over all its Le Mans races.

Kenmo, for every supercar an American company like Saleen can put out, there are a dozen European supercars that are better. Or did you forget about Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Porsche 911's & Carrera GT, McLaren-Mercedes SLR, Aston Martin V8 Vantage... need I go on?

The only place where Domestics have an advantage is with price, and only sometimes. They're beat when it comes to reliability, quality, appearance, performance, and now as you've made me point out, foreign supercars are also superior.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14439645 Sun, 25 Sep 2005 13:48:56 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14439556 americanada :

said by Yoda2009

:

You don't seem to have caught the 'gist' of what I was trying to say regarding the noise of the door closing. What I'm trying to say is that everything is precise in the A4 and the the whole car is at a higher level of craftsmanship. I have been in a variety of domestic cars, and unless you are blind, you can tell the difference.

Your truck and the 300C are certainly faster than the 3.2L A4, which is a definite plus. But, is all your driving done in a straight line? Do you ever happen to turn? This is where the A4 is far superior. How about ride quality? A4 wins again.

Overall, performance isn't the only thing I'm talking about here. It's a combination of performance, comfort, and reliability that make me choose the German car.

No, I didn't really miss the gist of what you were trying to say - I was pointing out that not everyone cares and is prepared to pay premiums to get doors that sound like bank vaults closing. Certainly the Germans make nice cars but I personally don't think they're the cats meow nor do I think they're worth the money people pay for them.

And yes, most of my driving is done in relatively straight lines. Unlike the commercials on TV showing executives taking long winding mountain roads to get to/from work, around the big cities most freeways and arteries are pretty straight.
--
* AMD64 3500+ * ASUS A8N-E * 1GB DDR400 * ATI X850 XT PE 256MB PCIe * Dual L90D+ 19" LCDs * ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14439556 Sun, 25 Sep 2005 13:37:10 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14439522 americanada :

said by osme

:
No shit the 0-60's are faster, the engine is nearly twice the displacement, yet it doesn't give as much additional power as you'd expect. Interesting. 0-60 times are only half the story. The Audi will take turns without having to slow down at all, while the 300C has so much body roll that it'll be riding on its doorhandles at anything over 20km/h, and while your horrible truck rolls over.

When was the last time you drove a 2002+ Ram? They handle extremely well and are not like the pickups of old. This is ripped from a Motor Trend comparison of the Chevy SS and the Ram:

While the SS excelled in a straight line, when curves were added to the mix the Ram edged ahead. Hustled around the Streets of Willow circuit at Willow Springs International Raceway, the Ram revealed a trait you might not expect in a pickup: finesse. The Ram is a true driver's truck, rewarding its pilot with fluid, responsive steering, brakes that never seem to fade, and a composed, confidence-inspiring chassis that willingly follows your lead. The Hemi engine kicks out inspiring tailpipe tones, too. So encouraged, our test driver posted a best lap time of 1:09.5

said by osme

:
Even in a straight line on a highway, that A4 with a small V6 would surge past your top speed of 130mph and on to an electronically limited top speed of 155mph.

Not true. The Audi is limited at 130 just like the 300C. And if both cars had the speed limiter disabled I would put my money on the 300C for top speed.

Performance
*
0-60 mph in seconds: 6.7
Top track speed: 130 mph*
--
* AMD64 3500+ *
ASUS A8N-E *
1GB DDR400 *
ATI X850 XT PE 256MB PCIe *
Dual L90D+ 19" LCDs *

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14439522 Sun, 25 Sep 2005 13:30:16 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14439077 digitalfutur : How about a 1000 HP V-16 Caddy?

Specs:

»www.gmcanada.com/english/vehicle···pec.html
--
Less said takes longer. Walk the talk.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14439077 Sun, 25 Sep 2005 12:03:32 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14438999 34140721 : Shaner my friend, there are alot of Mustang GTs and Vette Z06s in Halifax...

The best car I've ever owned for reliability is my 1992 Chevrolet Lumina with 230,000kms +... I just can't kill the thing... Passenger front door is rusted underneath, but no rust anywhere else... I've had Toyotas, GMs & Fords... Parts for domestics are so much cheaper...

I'm thinking my next car will be a Chevrolet Impala (since that really is a re-packaged Lumina) or equivalent Buick, Olds, Pontiac.... What I would really love to have as a daily driver would be a 1990's Cadillac STS Northstar...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14438999 Sun, 25 Sep 2005 11:51:52 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14438868 shaner :

said by mr weather

:

Cheer all you want about Audi but at the end of the day it's still a glorified Volkswagen. :D

Heh, so's a Porsche.

Nice cars there Kenmo, but how about something that most people might actually find in thier driveway?
--
Click this and read. -> »www.actsofgord.com/
»Canadian Wireless FAQ
I'm laying pipe,
all night long,
laying pipe,
to satisfy that woman.
- David Wilcox ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14438868 Sun, 25 Sep 2005 11:22:37 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14438289 mr weather : Cheer all you want about Audi but at the end of the day it's still a glorified Volkswagen. :D
--
"It's all coming down!!" - Mike Holmes]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14438289 Sun, 25 Sep 2005 09:11:54 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14438228 34140721 : Want some high-end domestics that will compete against high end foreign cars...

How about the Saleen S7

»www.fast-autos.net/saleen/04saleens7.html
»www.saleen.com/

OR the Panoz Esperante
»www.fast-autos.net/panoz/panozes···tlm.html

quote:
»motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/1···5_panoz/
2003 Panoz Esperante Roadster
Part Lotus, part Miata, part Ferrari, yet all-American and somehow all its own, the Panoz Esperante proves that high-quality, low-volume GTs can be built in the U.S. and sold for less than $100 grand.

Factory Five Racing GTM Mulsanne
»www.fast-autos.net/ffr/ffrmulsanne.html
»www.fast-autos.net/ffr/ffrmulsanne.html

Callaway Corvette
»www.fast-autos.net/callaway/callawayc12.html

In endurance races where durabilty is a huge factor, guess what manufacturer is winning the production class...GM with it's Corvette C5R and now Corvette C6R...these cars are sold for the street as Corvette Z06s...

And I would put the Corvette Z06 or Mustang GT up against any import any day...:-)

Saleen S7
Panoz Esperante
Mulsanne
Calloway Corvette

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14438228 Sun, 25 Sep 2005 08:48:08 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14438045 Tyreman : Foreign cars examples here like the Audis,BMW's etcetera might be superior cars identified by some here.
And by some specific engineered device on board.
For various reasons to the users acclaim.
If they(users) bought these vehicles new maybe they can afford that, having the necessary disposable income to suppport that purchase.
However not all the population (me included) can afford to support that purchase regime.
Therefore many of us go to used vehicles.
I own a 96 Ford Taurus s whatever,v6. it has about 196,000km's on it, was a relatives car and lucky for me it runs pretty fine and has cost in maintenance about $44.00 monthly the last year.This figure includes touch up paint and clear coat(for shopping cart damage repair).:)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14438045 Sun, 25 Sep 2005 07:19:04 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14437761 Yoda2009 :

said by americanada

said by Yoda2009

:

I have driven a Chrysler 300C, which is supposed to be in approximately the same class (price-wise) as the Audi A4. The two cars are completely different. One is a boat, and the other is excellently engineered machine that handles very well.

The 300C with it's top engine smokes the Audi A4 with its top engine in alomst every category, including being almost a full second faster 0-60. Hell, my 5000 lb Ram truck sled is faster than the Audi 0-60. I could care less what the doors sound like when I close them - I wouldn't be thinking about that as my big ugly American truck that cost me about $14,000 less than your fancy import walks away from it on the streets, strip, or highway.

A4 3.2 Specifications
DOHC aluminum 90-degree 3.2 V6 with FSI Direct Injection,
Horsepower: 255 hp @ 6,500 rpm
Torque: 243 lb-ft @ 3250 rpm
0-60 mph in seconds: 6.7

Type 5.7 Liter Hemi Gas
Horsepower(HP) 340 @ 5000 RPM
Torque(LBs-FT.) 390 @ 4000 RPM
0-60 mph 5.8 s
1/4 Mile 14.3 s @ 98 mph
Top Speed 130 mph

You don't seem to have caught the 'gist' of what I was trying to say regarding the noise of the door closing. What I'm trying to say is that everything is precise in the A4 and the the whole car is at a higher level of craftsmanship. I have been in a variety of domestic cars, and unless you are blind, you can tell the difference.

Your truck and the 300C are certainly faster than the 3.2L A4, which is a definite plus. But, is all your driving done in a straight line? Do you ever happen to turn? This is where the A4 is far superior. How about ride quality? A4 wins again.

Overall, performance isn't the only thing I'm talking about here. It's a combination of performance, comfort, and reliability that make me choose the German car. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14437761 Sun, 25 Sep 2005 03:09:31 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14437749 osme :

said by americanada

:

The 300C with it's top engine smokes the Audi A4 with its top engine in alomst every category, including being almost a full second faster 0-60. Hell, my 5000 lb Ram truck sled is faster than the Audi 0-60. I could care less what the doors sound like when I close them - I wouldn't be thinking about that as my big ugly American truck that cost me about $14,000 less than your fancy import walks away from it on the streets, strip, or highway.

No shit the 0-60's are faster, the engine is nearly twice the displacement, yet it doesn't give as much additional power as you'd expect. Interesting. 0-60 times are only half the story. The Audi will take turns without having to slow down at all, while the 300C has so much body roll that it'll be riding on its doorhandles at anything over 20km/h, and while your horrible truck rolls over.

Even in a straight line on a highway, that A4 with a small V6 would surge past your top speed of 130mph and on to an electronically limited top speed of 155mph.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14437749 Sun, 25 Sep 2005 03:05:20 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14436911 dirtyjeffer :

said by yabos :
I was looking at a Taurus SHO a few years ago. It had a lot of power but in the end it is still a Taurus which I've heard horror stories about.

they were crappy back then, and if this were 10 years ago, i wouldn't have bought a taurus...but the 2000 and up models (all the newest generation) are much better than the ones made in the 90's (even the '99)...the engines and tranny's in the newest ones are much better than what was in the older gen taurus'.
--
"The only thing more greedy than a corporation, are its customers."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14436911 Sat, 24 Sep 2005 23:39:51 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14436891 dirtyjeffer :

said by digitalfutur :
What counts is the best value for the money, and that's not always a foreign car.

which is also my point...when i bought my taurus, i wasn't looking for a taurus...but after looking how much used honda's and toyota's were selling for, i started looking again at domestic...i researched for a couple of months on what sold for what price, and what decent cars could be had, nicely equipped, with low mileage, warranty and affordable for my budget...and the taurus was simply a great fit...i also looked at an Impala and a Regal GS (supercharged), but the taurus had the lowest km's on it, was only 2 years old, and still had warranty...the accords i was looking were $10,000 more expensive, usually had more mileage on them, and were as is...accords are nice cars, i am not arguing that fact...but it isn't worth $10,000 more.
--
"The only thing more greedy than a corporation, are its customers."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14436891 Sat, 24 Sep 2005 23:37:26 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14436849 yabos : I was looking at a Taurus SHO a few years ago. It had a lot of power but in the end it is still a Taurus which I've heard horror stories about.

It's too bad, cause the engine was a Yamaha and as long as you welded the crank gear on so it wouldn't break off, it'd be a good engine. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14436849 Sat, 24 Sep 2005 23:32:12 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14436824 Bender2000 : the notion that imports are better is based solely because of honda and toyota's performance. The others have had many share of problems]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14436824 Sat, 24 Sep 2005 23:29:07 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14436817 digitalfutur : While it may have been true in the past, the notion that foreign car manufacturers always build better quality cars is based on emotion (and subtle anti-Americanism), and not supported by fact.

If you want to pay a price premium on a foreign-made car for perceived better quality, it's your wallet. What counts is the best value for the money, and that's not always a foreign car.

»www.jdpower.com/cc/auto/index.jsp
--
Less said takes longer. Walk the talk.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14436817 Sat, 24 Sep 2005 23:27:16 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14436647 americanada :

said by Yoda2009

said by Yoda2009 :
Dirtyjeffer, you obviously don't know what the hell you're talking about.

that is an awfully bold statement to say...especially towards someone who used to work in a machine shop, rebuilding engines, both regular and racing ones.

quote:
I spend a majority of my driving time behind the wheel of an Audi A4, and I can tell you no domestic has ever come close to the feel and quality of this car. Things like the "bank vault thud" you get when closing the door, and the fact that the dash is actually laid out in a logical fashion make this car completely worth it.

the A4 is certainly a very well made car, and i never said those cars weren't very good either.

quote:
I get the feeling you haven't driven a recent model BMW, Mercedes, or Audi.

your right...the last upper model car i drove was a '96 Porsche 911S Cabriolet...certainly better than any car you have so far mentioned.

quote:
The reason for my thinking this is: you actually like domestic cars. I realize cost is a big player when deciding which vehicle you will purchase, but don't go ranting about how domestic cars are just as good as foreign ones (specifically: German) if you haven't fully experienced both, as I and many other people have.

i am not saying that domestic cars are the be all and end all of vehicles, just that they deserve some credit for coming a long way over the last few years...in fact, if anyone is particularly biased, it would be yourself, towards imports, especially german ones.

quote:
I have driven a Chrysler 300C, which is supposed to be in approximately the same class (price-wise) as the Audi A4. The two cars are completely different. One is a boat, and the other is excellently engineered machine that handles very well.

the 300C is not the same type of car as an A4...i don't even know of a domestic vehicle that you would put up against an A4...but when i see new cars like the Ford Fusion and Pontiac Solstice, it is nice to see domestic manufacturers taking a page out of the imports book and building nice cars.

quote:
The reason why people buy domestic cars is because of price, and not quality.

i bought my domestic car because of price...it was a lot cheaper than an Accord, and isn't THAT bad of a car.

quote:
People like Dirtyjeffer evidently haven't had much experience driving foreign cars, and as a result they have continued to purchase domestic cars.

hmmmm...lets see...domestics i have owned over the years...1 pontiac, 1 chevy, 3 fords...a total of 5...imports i have owned...1 VW, 1 nissan, 1 mazda, 2 toyotas...a total of 5...seems pretty even to me...and i won't even count the motorcycles i have owned over the years as well, which happen to be 3 hondas and 1 yamaha...so if you want to get technical about it, i have more experience with imports than i do with domestics.

i think it's you who doesn't know what they are talking about.
--
"The only thing more greedy than a corporation, are its customers."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14436293 Sat, 24 Sep 2005 21:58:29 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14436149 Yoda2009 : Dirtyjeffer, you obviously don't know what the hell you're talking about.

I spend a majority of my driving time behind the wheel of an Audi A4, and I can tell you no domestic has ever come close to the feel and quality of this car. Things like the "bank vault thud" you get when closing the door, and the fact that the dash is actually laid out in a logical fashion make this car completely worth it.

I get the feeling you haven't driven a recent model BMW, Mercedes, or Audi. The reason for my thinking this is: you actually like domestic cars. I realize cost is a big player when deciding which vehicle you will purchase, but don't go ranting about how domestic cars are just as good as foreign ones (specifically: German) if you haven't fully experienced both, as I and many other people have.

I have driven a Chrysler 300C, which is supposed to be in approximately the same class (price-wise) as the Audi A4. The two cars are completely different. One is a boat, and the other is excellently engineered machine that handles very well.

The reason why people buy domestic cars is because of price, and not quality. People like Dirtyjeffer evidently haven't had much experience driving foreign cars, and as a result they have continued to purchase domestic cars. Fortunately though, most people seem to be noticing the differences between foreign and domestic now, which is why the domestics are evidently having some issues selling their cars.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14436149 Sat, 24 Sep 2005 21:36:10 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14435713 tayls :

said by Tikker_LoS

:

I thought FORD stood for Found On Road Dead

Don't forget F***ing Old Rebuilt Dodge.
That said I have a '98 Plymouth and a '91 Ford in my laneway.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14435713 Sat, 24 Sep 2005 20:13:36 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14432554 34140721 : How many songs are written about Civics, Corollas, Celicas, Acuras, Nissans....??? lol :-)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14432554 Sat, 24 Sep 2005 07:53:54 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14426034 Tyreman : Lots of 'ole crown vics about yet too.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14426034 Fri, 23 Sep 2005 09:09:35 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14425275 FishPants :

said by Wolfie00

said by FishPants

:

Holy trolling post..

No troll, note the smiley-wink -> ;) I thought it was an amusingly inconsistent view of the world ;)

Seriously, though, the problems with the big 3 domestic car makers have more to do with lack of vision and the inability to meet consumer needs than with a simplistic blaming of unions, which personally I don't give a crap about one way or the other. Volkswagen had quality nailed before the Japanese were even in the industry, while the domestic 3 (or 4 or 5 at the time) were producing junk. Ford was pronouncing "Quality is Job 1" thirty years ago when my brand-new Maverick was rusting after 6 months and had an engine that would periodically develop coughing fits, like it had a sudden attack of asthma. (I dumped it and got a Datsun - now Nissan - 280Z - which actually worked, went really, really fast, and restored my faith in cars :D). And they *still* don't get it about fuel efficiency. As someone said before, it takes a long time to build a reputation, and no time at all to ruin it. People don't forget easily.

The North American carmakers are definitely in bad shape, but it comes down to the fact that people just aren't buying enough product. Unions share some blame but mainly to the extent that they have resisted large-scale plant automation, preventing the automakers from utilizing the accuracy and consistent quality of robotic assembly nearly as much as the Japanese have been able to do. A well-established reputation for quality -- and the right kind of vehicle for the times -- in my mind is the biggest edge the Japanese (and Germans and a few other European makers) have over the big 3. That said, these days there are decent North American vehicles, some of which are hybrid European/Japanese/domestic, but the above is why IMHO the domestic carmakers have lost huge market share.

I was tired, missed the wink. My apologies!

I also agree with your post, that's very true. The unions DO have a lion share of the blame though, if not for the very reasons you mentioned but also inflated wages and so on (I am sure we could just dig out an old anti-union thread from here if we felt like kicking a dead horse.. personally I don't).

I still don't see my view as inconsistent, my expense account is budgeted annually, and I have to stick to it. Company I work for is double digit growth annually, and they take care of their employees. It certainly wasn't that way at Ford!
--
Hail to the Nipple-Titan.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14425275 Fri, 23 Sep 2005 02:47:47 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14421616 Wolfie00 :

said by FishPants

:

Holy trolling post..

said by dirtyjeffer

said by osme :
I wouldn't buy a domestic. Too many of them are built in countries with cheap labour, or significant parts are made there, like the Chinese engines GM puts in a lot of their SUVs (Equinox etc).

that is actually quite a funny statement, because the Equinox uses a Honda engine.

quote:
while most Domestics are poorly engineered, made to a budget, with the cheapest possible materials, by the lowest bidder.

My bad, my brother in law works for GM and says the Equinox has a Chinese engine, and that the Vue has a Honda V6. He also said the Equinox is badly made and that he wouldn't get one. Oh, and that and they stole the rear design from the Range Rover.

I'd rather pay a premium for higher quality, especially for the interior. It's far too common that the interiors of domestic cars, even supposed luxury cars like Cadillacs, are almost entirely composed of cheap plastic. You never know, it could end up cheaper in the long run to buy a car from a company known for reliability than to get a domestic and have to pay out the ass to replace faulty starters, transmissions and to fix blown head gaskets before 100,000km.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14421336 Thu, 22 Sep 2005 15:51:54 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14420962 FishPants :

said by Wolfie00

:

OK, I think I got that. But wait, didn't we talk about this sort of stuff before?

Nope.

said by Wolfie00

:

What can I say, your highly indecisive position on benefits and wages has me totally confused. ;)

Holy trolling post.. I will respond anyways to give you a little perspective. First off I don't work for an automotive company anymore, I work in the financial industry, and my company has over double digit growth annually. Do you understand that concept? Probably not, so here's the coles notes version: That translates into money into shareholder pockets consistently, and as a result the company is considered "Successful". Oh and there are no union monkeys in our company either, funny that eh? No union, profit, AND good perks. Crazy times! :uhh:
--
Hail to the Nipple-Titan.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14420962 Thu, 22 Sep 2005 14:50:10 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14419531 34140721 : My kid brother works as a mechanic for a leasing company...he claims the cars they have the least problem with are the Ford Crown Vics and Chevy Impalas... According to him they are much more durable then the Chryslers, Toyotas and Nissans...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14419531 Thu, 22 Sep 2005 10:58:10 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14419430 dirtyjeffer :

said by mr weather :
IMO nothing can touch the push-rod 3800.

that engine is a tank of a motor...one only needs to push a Buick Regal GS a bit to feel its pull (i test drove one before buying my taurus)...plus, a simple change of the supercharger pulley, will add about an extra 40 HP, and it only costs about $30 to do it (it just ends up making the supercharger turn faster as the pulley is a little larger).
--
"The only thing more greedy than a corporation, are its customers."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14419430 Thu, 22 Sep 2005 10:41:45 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14419366 mr weather :

said by dirtyjeffer

:

i just realized after i read the post again that you said Lumina...the car i was thinking about was the Impala...the Lumina didn't have the 3800 series II engine as an option, and instead used GM's 3.1L V6 or their better upgraded model, the 3.4L (depending on year and how its equipped)...the 3.4L is also used in the Rendevouz and some other Buick and GM models now.

Actually, there was an "police" option (like a 9C1 Impala) to put the 3800 in the Lumina. Very few were made but they did exist.

Unfortunately the 3400 is a dog, the intake manifold gasket being the weakest link.

I really like the '06 Impala especially the SS version with the V8. Not so sure sure about the new V6's they're using. IMO nothing can touch the push-rod 3800.
--
"It's all coming down!!" - Mike Holmes]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14419366 Thu, 22 Sep 2005 10:32:56 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14419346 34140721 : I like it...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14419346 Thu, 22 Sep 2005 10:29:30 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14419338 34140721 : WOW...nice car....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14419338 Thu, 22 Sep 2005 10:29:03 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14419292 dirtyjeffer : Here is a peek at the new Ford Iosis concept car shown in Frankfurt. Europe always seems to get the best ones first.:(
--
"The only thing more greedy than a corporation, are its customers."

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14419292 Thu, 22 Sep 2005 10:20:46 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14419192 dirtyjeffer :

said by CurtesyFlush :
Two items that interested me after I bought it was how it made two top ten lists back in 1997. It was in the top 10 of safest cars in an accident, and was in the top 10 of least stolen cars also. I like both those, as I'm way past the point in life of driving something flashy and popular with the thieves. I just want it to be reliable, have a comfortable drivers seat, and for the A/C to freeze my tits off.

i just realized after i read the post again that you said Lumina...the car i was thinking about was the Impala...the Lumina didn't have the 3800 series II engine as an option, and instead used GM's 3.1L V6 or their better upgraded model, the 3.4L (depending on year and how its equipped)...the 3.4L is also used in the Rendevouz and some other Buick and GM models now.

before i purchased my Taurus, i looked at some Impala LS models that were also very nice looking, and still reasonably priced and very reliable (some are also used as cop cars).
--
"The only thing more greedy than a corporation, are its customers."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14419192 Thu, 22 Sep 2005 10:02:13 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14419143 CurtesyFlush :

said by dirtyjeffer

:

the lumina is a very well made car, also a great value as a used domestic too (i was going to consider one of those before i decided on the taurus)...if you have the 3.8L V6, it is a tank of an engine...one of the few pushrod engines still around.

Two items that interested me after I bought it was how it made two top ten lists back in 1997. It was in the top 10 of safest cars in an accident, and was in the top 10 of least stolen cars also. I like both those, as I'm way past the point in life of driving something flashy and popular with the thieves. I just want it to be reliable, have a comfortable drivers seat, and for the A/C to freeze my tits off.
--
Some mornings it just doesn't seem worth it to gnaw through the leather straps. -- Emo Phillips]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14419143 Thu, 22 Sep 2005 09:54:03 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14419119 dirtyjeffer :

said by osme :
I wouldn't buy a domestic. Too many of them are built in countries with cheap labour, or significant parts are made there, like the Chinese engines GM puts in a lot of their SUVs (Equinox etc).

that is actually quite a funny statement, because the Equinox uses a Honda engine.

quote:
while most Domestics are poorly engineered, made to a budget, with the cheapest possible materials, by the lowest bidder.

well, in most cases (possibly with the exception of higher priced brands like merc, bmw, etc), the contract winner ends up being the lowest bidder...such the way is business, it happens with call centers, construction, the automotive sector and the communications industry.
--
"The only thing more greedy than a corporation, are its customers."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14419119 Thu, 22 Sep 2005 09:50:02 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14419103 dirtyjeffer :

said by Rifleman :
Another sign of superior quality is how japanese makes consistently get higher horsepower with smaller motors and higher reliability. Subaru gets almost 300 ponies out of a 4 cylinder engine. It takes almost 5 litres in a chev or ford to match it.

unfortunately, you are not correct there...you can get any amount of power of an engine...the deciding factors are cost, life span, torque requirements, and transmission specs...Ford's Rally Focus 2.0L Zetec makes well over 300 HP using high boost turbo's and modified intake and exhaust systems as well as a modded computer controller...but with the added cost to make the small engine have such a high output, factored in with the decreased lifespan of the engine, it simply isn't practical....when you can get a larger V8 engine that will make comparable HP and torque, and last much longer, as well as be cheaper to build, just makes more sense...sure todays more modern designs are getting better at producing more power, but will they be as rock solid and as durable as yesteryear's chevy 350, ford 302, chrysler 318?...i doubt it.

another way that many imports offer "sporty" performance is with high revving, high HP engines (as RPM's are required for HP), but sacrifice torque to do so...torque is what actually gets you moving, HP is only good for top speed...how do they compensate?...gearing in the transmission...i remember a few years ago, my friend had a honda prelude, and despite its "quickness", at a 120 km/hr it was revving just over 4000 rpms.

--
"The only thing more greedy than a corporation, are its customers."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14419103 Thu, 22 Sep 2005 09:46:21 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14418957 osme : I wouldn't buy a domestic. Too many of them are built in countries with cheap labour, or significant parts are made there, like the Chinese engines GM puts in a lot of their SUVs (Equinox etc). Ford also has a lot of that sort of plant.
The article says domestics are starting to catch up with initial quality. Whoopie. They'll still need more frequent repairs than your typical Toyota, Subaru, BMW, Audi, Merc, pre-Mexico VW, etc. in the long run. These cars typically are engineered for quality and to last, while most Domestics are poorly engineered, made to a budget, with the cheapest possible materials, by the lowest bidder.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14418957 Thu, 22 Sep 2005 09:15:09 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14418866 Feets :

said by Rifleman

:

Ford is trying their damndest to help everyone forget they ever made those, windstars , sables etc. The 3.8 was a damed good engine up until they started using aluminum heads. 93 think. The 3.8 from 95 to 98 wasjunk in all those cars including mustang and t bird. the new 4.2 is a bored out 3.8---voila "new" engine.

That's why Hondas and Toyotas are more desirable and have a better reputation. They basically never have engines and transmissions that are "junk". The big 3 make some good, reliable cars, but every now and then they put out a lemon. (Saturn's experiment with CVT is another example). It's those missteps that make people wary. When a new model hits the market you can't be sure if you're getting a something ultra-reliable or something that didn't get enough QA testing time. Honda and Toyota are far more consistent. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14418866 Thu, 22 Sep 2005 08:55:15 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14418837 mekyle : Personally I can't justify buying a new vehicle anymore, the cost of even a entry level car these days is up there and the depreciation is depressing even to think about.

Yes the Big three has some nice cars out now, but as nice as they are to someone like me how loves small sporty cars the Charger and 300s just don't "do it". I guess I'm stuck in the past but I love the old civics,CRX's, Golf GTI's, miatas, and heck even the look of the MGB's and triumph spitfires.

said by FishPants

Sorry I have to disagree here, Yes I am unionized and work at Ford on the assembly line so I'm biased, But Most Auto plants in Ontario pay close to the same amount hourly be it unionized or not. Now you are right that the Big three has Higher costs when it comes to "older" workers and pensions, they have been in business here longer and they have a lot of retirees they have to pay that the Asians companies don't only because they haven't been here long enough to have a large amount of retirees.

I said it before and I'll say it again, be it Honda in Aliston or Ford in Oakville both plants are full of Canadians building vehicles. It's not(IMHO) the assemblers causing most of the problems, it's those Damn engineers who design the crap with out taking the real world into account.

If you have crappy parts to work with, being a hard working dedicated worker isn't going to compensate for that.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14418837 Thu, 22 Sep 2005 08:48:45 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14418435 Wolfie00 :

said by FishPants

:

Well some (like me) would argue that the Big 3 are in horrible financial shape ... due to the union involvement ... all those benefits and wages have to be accounted for somewhere.

OK, I think I got that. But wait, didn't we talk about this sort of stuff before?

said by FishPants

:

Well we went for dinner at Queue de Chevalle (sp?). What an excellent steakhouse. Cost a small fortune (thank you expense account), but the food was truly amazing ... The two of us racked up a bill around $400 though ... it's all about being a good employer and having happy employees, it pays off in spades.

What can I say, your highly indecisive position on benefits and wages has me totally confused. ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14418435 Thu, 22 Sep 2005 05:54:57 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14418076 Rifleman : I would argue that mismanagement of funds and too many extreme salary upper echelon employees are a bigger issue. Union members pay a large hunk of their cheque to pensions and benefits. they have little to no say on design and how the company is run---they just put the pieces together.
Ford went as far as cutting mechanics wages at the dealerships. Many repairs are made given a certain amount of time to do the repair. If problems arise they work for nothing at the point time is up.
Lastly I read a few years back that a Ford explorer cost 12 grand to make from the factory to the lot. So where does the rest go? Dealers ar multimillionaires and the poor grunt working on the line and in the garage have to pay the costs---and are least able to afford it.
This is just ford as an example I suspect all makers work the same.
As for a 280 horse station wagon-----the wagon makes wife happy and hubby can burn rubber and enjoy actually "driving" something fun. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14418076 Thu, 22 Sep 2005 02:19:59 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14417985 FishPants :

said by Rifleman

:

Regardless Ford is in horrible financial shape and it is their fault. They killed brand loyalty with piss poor products that they invested "billions" to develop. The only saving grace was their crown vics to police and trucks.
Buying a brand is personal choice but if I am going to invest 40 grand in a car----I am going to gamble on the best bet.
Actually am looking at a 94 Volvo 850 Turbo Wagon. 222 ponies stock and putting a chip in it gets 280. Out of 2.3 litres and 5 cylinders. 4 grand certified and look out mustangs.

Well some (like me) would argue that the Big 3 are in horrible financial shape (in comparison) due to the union involvement. This isn't an issue for the japanese/korean etc, and all those benefits and wages have to be accounted for somewhere.

Next question: Why would you chip a station wagon? After all, it's still just a station wagon; do you need to do 260km/h in one? hehe.
--
Hail to the Nipple-Titan.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14417985 Thu, 22 Sep 2005 01:52:55 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14417702 Rifleman : The 3.8 was a great engine---my 86 tbird had 450000kms on it. It was when they diddled with it and used aluminum instead of iron heads the problems arose.
Another sign of superior quality is how japanese makes consistently get higher horsepower with smaller motors and higher reliability. Subaru gets almost 300 ponies out of a 4 cylinder engine. It takes almost 5 litres in a chev or ford to match it.
Regardless Ford is in horrible financial shape and it is their fault. They killed brand loyalty with piss poor products that they invested "billions" to develop. The only saving grace was their crown vics to police and trucks.
Buying a brand is personal choice but if I am going to invest 40 grand in a car----I am going to gamble on the best bet.
Actually am looking at a 94 Volvo 850 Turbo Wagon. 222 ponies stock and putting a chip in it gets 280. Out of 2.3 litres and 5 cylinders. 4 grand certified and look out mustangs. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14417702 Thu, 22 Sep 2005 00:50:01 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14417673 dirtyjeffer :

said by DukeN

:

Will never buy domestic - build quality is just not there. It's like comparing a Fujitsu or high end IBM notebook to an MDG.

Not to mention fuel economy, engine reliability, resale value and so on....

compare my loaded taurus, to a loaded accord...tell me how the accord is $10,000 better?
--
"The only thing more greedy than a corporation, are its customers."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14417673 Thu, 22 Sep 2005 00:43:55 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14417622 DukeN : Will never buy domestic - build quality is just not there. It's like comparing a Fujitsu or high end IBM notebook to an MDG.

Not to mention fuel economy, engine reliability, resale value and so on....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14417622 Thu, 22 Sep 2005 00:33:34 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14417604 dirtyjeffer : yea, the 3.8 certainly wasn't a very good engine...probably why Ford scrapped it...although, many of their newer engines (including the one in my taurus) are actually not even ford engines...Duratec engines are Mazda engines (yes, i know ford owns mazda), with slight tuning adjustments and cosmetic differences...many of the new Focus' have the new Duratec 23 engine (2.3L), the Taurus has the Duratec 30 (3.0L) in it as an option, and is also standard in the new freestyle, five hundred, and optional in the new fusion (yes, all ford cars begin with the letter "f", except for the mustang, much like their suv's all begin with the letter "e")...plus, the AWD system used in the five hundred and freestyle is the Haldex system, pulled out of the Volvo parts bin...one reason why the five hundred and freestyle have received high marks...say what you want about ford, but their purchase of mazda, jaguar, aston martin, volvo and land rover was a great idea, and has certainly helped step up the quality of their products...it allowed them to combine engineering ideas from many different market segments, and share platforms to improve cost efficiency.
--
"The only thing more greedy than a corporation, are its customers."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14417604 Thu, 22 Sep 2005 00:29:43 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14417389 Rifleman : I hope you got one of the good ones. Ford is trying their damndest to help everyone forget they ever made those, windstars , sables etc. The 3.8 was a damed good engine up until they started using aluminum heads. 93 think. The 3.8 from 95 to 98 wasjunk in all those cars including mustang and t bird. the new 4.2 is a bored out 3.8---voila "new" engine.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14417389 Wed, 21 Sep 2005 23:58:41 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14416757 shaner : I still want a 2 car garage. A 2005 Mustang on one side and a 2005 Charger on the other. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14416757 Wed, 21 Sep 2005 22:37:50 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14416610 dirtyjeffer : the lumina is a very well made car, also a great value as a used domestic too (i was going to consider one of those before i decided on the taurus)...if you have the 3.8L V6, it is a tank of an engine...one of the few pushrod engines still around.
--
"The only thing more greedy than a corporation, are its customers."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14416610 Wed, 21 Sep 2005 22:20:49 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14416455 CurtesyFlush : I have a Chevy Lumina LS sedan built in Canada. I love that car to death.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14416455 Wed, 21 Sep 2005 22:01:14 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14415985 dirtyjeffer :

said by Rifleman

:

The local auto trader says it all. Money talks and there are half the number of hondas and toyotas for sale used than the big 3.

buying a slightly used domestic car can also be a very smart decision...because there are so many of them, the resale value of them is quite low, despite the fact they are still decent cars...this is exactly why i purchased my loaded 2000 taurus in 2002...i picked it up for $16,000 (over $34,000 new) with only 33,000 kms on it...fully loaded accords were still selling for over $26,000...while the accord may be a better car, it certainly isn't $10,000 better...i have only had a few minor problems with the car, all of which were covered under recall warranty's...something you won't find on many imports, as they don't like to issue recalls, as they feel it tarnishes the image of quality...instead, it is simply a "worn out part" and you pay to replace it.
--
"The only thing more greedy than a corporation, are its customers."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14415985 Wed, 21 Sep 2005 21:12:05 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14415945 dirtyjeffer : Windstar's were bad...the 3.8L V6 was known to blow headgaskets, and chew threw trannies like crazy...however, most of the problems with trannies in many of todays minivans and suv's are simply due to the fact that they are using car parts on much larger vehicles, causing those parts to wear a lot more...even Honda had a huge problem with their trannies in their odyssey and pilot vehicles, and also refused to "officially acknowledge it", other than temporarily stop production of them until the tranny issue was resolved (this is about 2 years ago)...a windstar would have a similar powertrain as a taurus, yet you can fill it up with more people, plus all the crap people take, and you are putting a heavy load on that powertrain.

that is one of the reasons i would never buy a minivan, as they are simply "cars" with large bodies on them (although, i also don't have a need for a minivan).
--
"The only thing more greedy than a corporation, are its customers."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14415945 Wed, 21 Sep 2005 21:06:46 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14415410 Snickerdo :

said by americanada

:

I currently own a Ram (my third) and would not hesitate to buy Dodge again. They made some bad mistakes in the 80's but have really come around in the last 10 years or so.

Gotta agree with you there. I still to this day am impressed by my 1992 Dodge Grand Caravan. 13 Years Old, and she still gets me back and forth to work and has no problem with the occasional trip to Oshawa and back.
--
Bigot - Someone that has won an argument with a Liberal.
Yes, I CanChat. Can You? www.fiberal.ca]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14415410 Wed, 21 Sep 2005 19:59:53 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14412611 americanada :

said by Dark Shoes

:

Edit: And as a side note, I don't even think you can consider Chrysler/Dodge as being a domestic (North American) anymore since it's owned and run by the Germans now. They've been doing weird things to that company in the past few years.

If by weird you mean that Dodge/Chrysler is the only one of the "Big Three" to turn profit in recent months, you are right. If by weird you mean that the Dodge/Chrysler arm of Daimler Chrysler is the one that is successful while Mercedes has been plagued by quality and sales problems, you are right. If by weird, you mean that Dodge/Chrysler has some of the boldest designs around (Ram, Charger, Magnum, to name a few) and some of the best performance vehicles (Ram SRT-10, Viper, Neon SRT-4, Charger SRT-8, Crossfire SRT-6), you are right.

I currently own a Ram (my third) and would not hesitate to buy Dodge again. They made some bad mistakes in the 80's but have really come around in the last 10 years or so.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14412611 Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:37:02 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14412366 Tikker_LoS : I thought FORD stood for Found On Road Dead]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14412366 Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:02:17 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14411789 mr weather : Heh... they don't call it Fix Or Repair Daily for nothing. :D

Phil Edmonston tells it like it is. He pretty much hates everything out there, so it's simply a matter of picking the vehicle he hates the least.
--
"It's all coming down!!" - Mike Holmes]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14411789 Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:31:13 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14411620 Rifleman : The local auto trader says it all. Money talks and there are half the number of hondas and toyotas for sale used than the big 3. They are worth more and usually much more miles on them. I bought a 98 Windstar that was an absolute piece of junk. I paid almost 25 grand for it and put 2 trannies in it and headgaskets twice. I took them to court and they lied through their teeth. I will never buy a dodge chev or ford again unless it is 10 years old and dirt cheap.
Before that van and after I have never paid more than 5 grand for a vehicle and none has ever left me stranded or drained my wallet. That van left me stuck so often I knew the tow truck guy on a first name business. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14411620 Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:07:08 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14411573 anon : If the domestics of 30+ yrs ago were so bad, were the Japanesse products of that era any better?

I remember seeing many Datsun B210s and 510s and similar Toyotas & Hondas rust buckets after only 2-5 yrs of age]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14411573 Wed, 21 Sep 2005 10:59:50 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14411545 Four Eyes : Within the next few years, I'll be replacing my '89 Camry which still runs great and has been extremely reliable (I'll be sad to see it go)

Buying a Ford/GM/Chrysler will not even cross my mind. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14411545 Wed, 21 Sep 2005 10:55:33 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14410817 bylo :

said by dirtyjeffer

:

domestic manufacturers have significantly upped their quality, especially over the past 5 years

quote:
It takes 20 years to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it. If you think about that, you'll do things differently. ...Warren Buffett

Detroit spent the past 30+ years giving us untold demonstrations of five-minute bad experiences. For many of us those experiences destroyed Detroit's reputation. We will be waiting for at least another 15 years to see if Detroit is really doing anything differently -- assuming they survive the near-death experience they're having now.

And that reminds me of another famous aphorism that may explain Detroit's sudden interest in the quality of their products.

quote:
Depend upon it, sir, when a man knows he is to be hanged in a fortnight, it concentrates his mind wonderfully. ...Samuel Johnson

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14410817 Wed, 21 Sep 2005 09:02:41 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14410648 Tyreman : And one thing is certain talk to anybody who has bought a new vehicle lately and you seem to get a variety of opinions on what to buy.
Market share of the traditional big three has steadily declined over the years....though no doubt 'bout it quality has improved.
People are still grabbing the foreign vehicles to.
Though with the big three and some components and parts made by foreign companies its becoming more blurred.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14410648 Wed, 21 Sep 2005 08:25:34 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14410364 DKS :

said by 99664227

said by dirtyjeffer

:

Well, I have said it many times, that the domestic manufacturers have significantly upped their quality, especially over the past 5 years, and it looks like it is starting to show. The "foreign cars are better" line, is more about marketing hype, and living in the past. If you are looking at purchasing a new(er) car, don't eliminate a domestic, as they make great vehicles too.

»www.canadiandriver.com/articles/···lity.htm

Since when does Canada make a domestic car? And don't say GM Ford or Dodge because you may have a plant here and there. The big three are made in the USA.

Canada has several 'domestic" cars. The Impala series out of Oshawa, the Ford Crown Victoria/Police Interceptor and the Toyota Corolla are all built in Canada.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14410364 Wed, 21 Sep 2005 06:42:55 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14410161 Dark Shoes :

said by dirtyjeffer

:

The "foreign cars are better" line, is more about marketing hype, and living in the past.

I think it's more than just marketing hype. Take a look at the bottom of your own link where they compile four major studies concerning quality and reliability. Out of the 45 vehicles there's only 14 so-called domestics that make the list. That means 70% of the top vehicles are so-called foreign.

Edit: And as a side note, I don't even think you can consider Chrysler/Dodge as being a domestic (North American) anymore since it's owned and run by the Germans now. They've been doing weird things to that company in the past few years.

--
Capture, Copy, Burn, Edit, Author, Backup, Playback & Share. - Nero 6]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14410161 Wed, 21 Sep 2005 04:16:33 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14410014 Snickerdo :

said by 99664227

:

Since when does Canada make a domestic car? And don't say GM Ford or Dodge because you may have a plant here and there. The big three are made in the USA.

You might want to do a bit of research. More cars come out of the Province of Ontario then out of the State of Michigan. Ever been to Oshawa? Half of the city is two massive GM plants that employ close to 30,000 people.
--
Bigot - Someone that has won an argument with a Liberal.
Yes, I CanChat. Can You? www.fiberal.ca]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14410014 Wed, 21 Sep 2005 02:55:08 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14409845 99664227 :

said by dirtyjeffer

Since when does Canada make a domestic car? And don't say GM Ford or Dodge because you may have a plant here and there. The big three are made in the USA.
--
My hourly rates: $25 per hour. $35 per hour if you want to watch. $45 per hour if you want to help. $75 per hour if you tried to fix it, and failed. The biggest error is sitting in front of your keyboard.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14409845 Wed, 21 Sep 2005 01:44:17 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14409753 Devanchya : But what is domestic now?

All the corporations are international.

Most of the cars are some part made in Canada now.
--
»www.codecipher.com - Marking the way to tomorrow's solutions]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14409753 Wed, 21 Sep 2005 01:21:48 EDT Re: The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14409725 Thingamajig :

quote:
Too many of them vividly recall the disastrously poor products Detroit-based automakers foisted onto the public in the 1970s, 1980s and even parts of the 1990s.

...and I still have a bad taste in my mouth from the crapola they were selling not to mention the B.S. one would get from the dealers trying to make the damn piece of crap operate properly. A friend recently shows up in my driveway to show off his new Durango (had 60 kilometers on it!) it must have left a quart of oil on my driveway...no thanks, you'll continue to find Toyota & Honda products at this posters place!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14409725 Wed, 21 Sep 2005 01:15:31 EDT The Best Made Cars: Foreign vs Domestic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14409605 dirtyjeffer : Well, I have said it many times, that the domestic manufacturers have significantly upped their quality, especially over the past 5 years, and it looks like it is starting to show. The "foreign cars are better" line, is more about marketing hype, and living in the past. If you are looking at purchasing a new(er) car, don't eliminate a domestic, as they make great vehicles too.

»www.canadiandriver.com/articles/···lity.htm
--
"The only thing more greedy than a corporation, are its customers."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14409605 Wed, 21 Sep 2005 00:46:28 EDT