Re: Fast!! in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r14334480 en Sat, 28 Nov 2009 22:16:40 EDT Sat, 28 Nov 2009 22:16:40 EDT Re: Fast!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14369909 SNT : 3 problems with that EULA.

1. ...any "OS Product"
Linux is an OS Product.

2. The list of OS's does NOT include XP

and 3. By that same EULA,
"The OS Components are provided to you by Microsoft to update,
supplement, or replace existing functionality of the applicable OS Product.
In the event your OS Product is a version of Windows NT Server, the OS
Components are deemed "Client Software." Microsoft grants you a license to use
the OS Components under the terms and conditions of the OS Product EULA for
the applicable OS Product (which are hereby incorporated by reference) and the
terms and conditions set forth in this Supplemental EULA, provided that you
comply with all such terms and conditions. To the extent that any terms in
this Supplemental EULA conflict with terms in the applicable OS Product EULA,
the terms of this Supplemental EULA control solely with respect to the OS
Components."
According to this, IE is not an OS component so the paragraph you quoted doesn't apply.

In conclusion,
Linux + Wine = Free IE.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14369909 Thu, 15 Sep 2005 12:17:25 EDT Re: Fast!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14351812 number_one : WTF? You are obviously not a programmer. Anyone with reason would understand that you can't catch every bug that a program will have before it is released. Chances are that there are a few bugs out there in widely used software that will never even be discovered at all.

If people spent too much time testing then we would never get software to use or new features added period. There has to be a balance between testing and a release schedule. It would not be "professional" to never release software because you are paranoid that there will be flaws in it (That would just be plain stupid). Ultimately your end users are the final test phase, and there will always be bugs to fix.

And after the software IS released, you don't have the option of living in a fantasy world where you can tell your users to not use your software until you can release a permanent fix. The professional thing to do is to release a temporary fix with which users can protect themselves, and then go develop a permanent bug fix that can go through all of the proper testing and reviews before being released as a patch and/or included in a future release of the software in question.

Mozilla has handled the situation quite well as many of the people in this thread have indicated.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14351812 Tue, 13 Sep 2005 01:31:57 EDT Re: Fast!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14341203 Matt9 : These are big -- BIG flaws. Found not even a week after a release. Users, generally just browsing the web, came across them. How hard it would it be for SOFTWARE engineers to find them? I mean, really. Take a few hours of your day, browse the web. Wow...difficult, huh? Part of me wonders if Mozilla releases products with flaws just to get attention.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14341203 Sun, 11 Sep 2005 16:16:43 EDT Re: Fast!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14340925 anon : That's easy to say for someone that has probably NEVER worked with or developed software. It's not as easy as you think.

Sadly, while we wish that all software is air-tight from the day it's released, if that was the case then nothing would get released.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14340925 Sun, 11 Sep 2005 15:21:06 EDT Re: Fast!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14338966 RayW :
said by Matt9 See Profile :

I'm not comparing Firefox to Microsoft, Firefox is Mozilla and Microsoft is Microsoft, why compare them?
Because Microsoft has again started to and because they occupy the same ecological niche in the world of computing? And back in the early-mid 90's Microsoft threw a ton of resources and money to ensure that THEY would be the only browser around (my company at the time was directly affected by that)?

said by Matt9 See Profile :

But WHY aren't these programmers FINDING these holes BEFORE they release the product? Don't they care? Or is it "well we'll just release this and let the users find all the holes, then do damage control from there?"
Well, I can not answer that except by inference and experience. My guess would be because there is no way a small group of programmers with a limited number of systems and a finite amount of time can find all the various loopholes and still be able to release a product in a time frame somewhat less than infinity. And face it, even the best programmers and testers have blind spots in their thinking. And it may be sacrilege to the "'zilla is God" crowd, but the 'zilla team is not a large, well funded, supposedly coherent team. It is an open source cooperative effort that seems to be doing quite well despite all their handicaps.

One would assume the smaller the group and the poorer the funding, the more the problems and the slower the fixes/workarounds

I think many of the comparisons boil down to the Microsoft's historical "head in the sand until there are no other options" and the apparent fast response by the 'zilla team.

As a closing note, I had an instructer long ago that said something to the affect that it does not matter how long a piece of software has been out or how well it has been worked over, it will still be a beta until the day it ceases to be used.
--
I am not lost, I find myself every time.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14338966 Sun, 11 Sep 2005 08:21:41 EDT Re: Fast!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14338065 bth_lonewolf :
said by KrK See Profile :

said by insomniac84 See Profile :

2) Take as long as a few months to release a fix or version update, meanwhile leaving your users exposed, and just hoping nobody takes advantage of it.... Oh and if a big exploit then does appear, then you put out a patch AFTERWARDS shutting down or disabling the problem until you get it fixed. (This is the route MS usually has taken.)

Me, I'll take #1. You FireFox Haters will of course take #2.... and you'll praise MS for shafting you.
C'mon -- ridiculous generalizations. Microsoft last month released a fix in IE in about 24 - 48 hours after it was found. Not saying that _always_ happens, but months? Microsoft is generally a lot more responsive than you think ... if you can, give examples of this specifically instead of these generalizations?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14338065 Sun, 11 Sep 2005 00:40:10 EDT Re: Fast!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14336677 Matt9 : I don't care about Microsoft. I'm talking about Mozilla. Why do people always compare the 2 browsers when discussing flaws and how quickly they are fixed?

I'm not debating that Mozilla fixes them faster and more efficiently than Microsoft. I'm just trying to make the point that both exist and it seems that they release Firefox without really testing it. They find these flaws quickly a few days after a release -- why aren't they picked up on during TESTING and fixed BEFORE an official release?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14336677 Sat, 10 Sep 2005 20:25:41 EDT Re: Fast!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14336674 Matt9 : I use Opera and Firefox as my browsers. I'm not comparing Firefox to Microsoft, Firefox is Mozilla and Microsoft is Microsoft, why compare them?

Releasing a program with such a blatant flaw is unprofessional and inexcusable no matter what company does it. Don't they test this stuff before they release it? Seems like every Firefox release there is always some major security issue they are always rushing to fix. Yeah, I know, at least they offer patches "quickly" (compared to Microsoft) and the patches work. But WHY aren't these programmers FINDING these holes BEFORE they release the product? Don't they care? Or is it "well we'll just release this and let the users find all the holes, then do damage control from there?"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14336674 Sat, 10 Sep 2005 20:23:55 EDT Re: Fast!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14336146 CrzyCrakr : Using IE in anything other than Windows is breaking the EULA of IE. That is like saying...xbox games are free cuz you have a modded xbox and you copy games so you can play them. You are just circumventing the rule.

And to quote the EULA...
"NOTE: IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A VALID EULA FOR ANY "OS PRODUCT" (MICROSOFT WINDOWS
95, MICROSOFT WINDOWS 98, MICROSOFT WINDOWS NT WORKSTATION 4.0, MICROSOFT
WINDOWS NT SERVER 4.0, MICROSOFT WINDOWS NT SERVER, ENTERPRISE EDITION 4.0 OR
MICROSOFT WINDOWS NT SERVER 4.0, TERMINAL SERVER EDITION), YOU ARE NOT
AUTHORIZED TO INSTALL, COPY, OR OTHERWISE USE THE OS COMPONENTS AND YOU HAVE
NO RIGHTS UNDER THIS SUPPLEMENTAL EULA."

»www.microsoft.com/msdownload/iep···ense.txt

So IE is NOT free.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14336146 Sat, 10 Sep 2005 18:46:18 EDT Re: Fast!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14335567 wtansill :
said by SNT See Profile :

said by wtansill See Profile :

said by RDSra :

No, I don't pay anything for IE.
Yeah, you do. It's bundled into the cost of the OS itself. You just don't see it as a separate cost item.
Linux + Wine = Free IE
Missed that one. Still, it's the exception, but the rule.
--
That which does not kill me merely prolongs the agony.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14335567 Sat, 10 Sep 2005 16:48:55 EDT Re: Fast!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14335189 SNT :
said by wtansill See Profile :

said by RDSra :

No, I don't pay anything for IE.
Yeah, you do. It's bundled into the cost of the OS itself. You just don't see it as a separate cost item.
Linux + Wine = Free IE]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14335189 Sat, 10 Sep 2005 15:27:45 EDT Re: Fast!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14335054 hescominsoon :
said by Matt9 See Profile :

Can I take option 3? 3 being:

Realizing you have such a huge flaw in the first place, and not releasing your software until it's fixed.

Or is that too professional of an option for the Mozilla foundation?
Ask that question of Microsoft while you're at it.
--
God Bless »www.emmanuelcomputerconsulting.com -- carpe ductum -- "Grab the tape"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14335054 Sat, 10 Sep 2005 15:02:21 EDT Re: Fast!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14334875 wtansill :
said by RDSra :

No, I don't pay anything for IE.
Yeah, you do. It's bundled into the cost of the OS itself. You just don't see it as a separate cost item.
--
That which does not kill me merely prolongs the agony.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14334875 Sat, 10 Sep 2005 14:23:10 EDT Re: Fast!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14334480 anon : No, I don't pay anything for IE.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14334480 Sat, 10 Sep 2005 13:19:16 EDT Re: Fast!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14334252 King P : Sorry, but if that were the case then Windows shouldn't even be around...let alone IE or SQL Server or any of the other buggy and exploitable software that most people praise microsoft for creating...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14334252 Sat, 10 Sep 2005 12:38:57 EDT Re: Fast!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14334176 RayW :
said by Matt9 See Profile :

Can I take option 3? 3 being:

Realizing you have such a huge flaw in the first place, and not releasing your software until it's fixed.

Or is that too professional of an option for the Mozilla foundation?
Ummm, and you pay for many option three's with Microsoft and bash one in the free Mozilla/Firefox? I guess it is people like you that makes Bill Gates so rich that my entire worth is less than the lint in his pocket.

Yeah I know, Microsoft is so big compared to Mozilla they have an 'excuse' because of size.
--
I am not lost, I find myself every time.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14334176 Sat, 10 Sep 2005 12:26:33 EDT Re: Fast!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14334026 Matt9 : Can I take option 3? 3 being:

Realizing you have such a huge flaw in the first place, and not releasing your software until it's fixed.

Or is that too professional of an option for the Mozilla foundation?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14334026 Sat, 10 Sep 2005 11:59:32 EDT Re: Fast!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14333955 KrK :
said by insomniac84 See Profile :

Did you even read the story?
You praise a company for sweeping the problem under the rug. This is like disabling pictures because their is a jpeg flaw. Its sad when a company can't actually fix anything. They need to be more like microsoft and actually fix flaws.
Oh, COME ON! Sweeping it under the rug? Hardly. It's called acting responsible. Given a vulnerability has been made public, and based on past history someone could release an exploit in under a week... Let me ask you which you'd prefer...

1) Realizing it might be take some time to reprogram, test for compatibility, and release a new version or patch, a company moves swiftly now to shut down or disable the flaw, until such time it is fixed. (This is what Mozilla just did)

or

2) Take as long as a few months to release a fix or version update, meanwhile leaving your users exposed, and just hoping nobody takes advantage of it.... Oh and if a big exploit then does appear, then you put out a patch AFTERWARDS shutting down or disabling the problem until you get it fixed. (This is the route MS usually has taken.)

Me, I'll take #1. You FireFox Haters will of course take #2.... and you'll praise MS for shafting you.
--
"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14333955 Sat, 10 Sep 2005 11:44:10 EDT Re: Fast!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14333773 insomniac84 :
said by cork1958 See Profile :

Temporary, but quick!! Have to give the folks at mozilla credit for that!! ;)

Way to go!! :)
Did you even read the story?
You praise a company for sweeping the problem under the rug. This is like disabling pictures because their is a jpeg flaw. Its sad when a company can't actually fix anything. They need to be more like microsoft and actually fix flaws.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14333773 Sat, 10 Sep 2005 11:06:01 EDT Re: Fast!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14333550 Syan48306 : After seeing how mozilla does things...you start to wonder if IE is a live program and if they have people wokring on it...lol go firefox]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14333550 Sat, 10 Sep 2005 10:13:40 EDT Re: Fast!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14333535 shrtckt1 : They have to be. This is part of their QOS strategy to sink IE for good. I think they are doing a great job (they got my business). ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14333535 Sat, 10 Sep 2005 10:09:15 EDT Fast!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14333514 cork1958 : Temporary, but quick!! Have to give the folks at mozilla credit for that!! ;)

Way to go!! :)

And MS has cancelled next Tuesdays patch day to fix an issue that has been know for awhile now! Go figure.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14333514 Sat, 10 Sep 2005 10:04:19 EDT