Using balloons for wireless internet? in Wireless Service Providers http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r14189250 en Sun, 08 Nov 2009 20:41:29 EDT Sun, 08 Nov 2009 20:41:29 EDT Re: Using balloons for wireless internet? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14225796 jober : Packet radio was the first testing I did with my HAM radio friend. He setup the RF crap because I know nothing about RF at all.
If you need details on what he used I can find out. He was thinking at the time that if he got high enought that we wouldn't need big antennas for the remote sides.

The testing I did with the first 2.4 radios were zcom prebata. They were not even 802.11. And that was in 97. The coolest test day was the 15 mile link on the xwl450s in 1998. The problem I had with trying to deploy this way was that the wind and rain in this area is way too extreme. The blimp would only handle 15mph winds and the rain would load the blimp up with water.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14225796 Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:29:44 EDT Re: Using balloons for wireless internet? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14201072 Yahkin :
said by haggleza See Profile :

I'm not sure if there are any legal obstacles, but has anybody tried using hydrogen as the lifting gas instead of helium. Some weather balloons use hydrogen. Hydrogen has a higher lifting factor and costs less than half of what helium costs. As these balloons don’t carry people the safety aspect is not so critical.
Somebody still has to fill the balloon, and that is time when you are most likely to have a problem with oxygen mixing with it...As NASA puts it...an uncontrolled fragmentation could occur. Not to mention that hydrogen is a smaller molecule than helium, so it escapes even faster.

Not sure if you want to pay for all those windows that break the first time your floating hydrogen bomb explodes in a storm. :P

Hydrogen is cheaper, prosthetics are not.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14201072 Tue, 23 Aug 2005 13:36:13 EDT Re: Using balloons for wireless internet? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14200590 cmaenginsb : That article references an unmanned aircraft not a balloon or blimp so it isn't the same as here. As to actual use, as of 6 months ago Aerovironment was still doing more tests. I know this because one of their locations was a customer of the wireless ISP I worked for and I did the install.

jober, what radios were you using in 1994?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14200590 Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:37:54 EDT Re: Using balloons for wireless internet? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14200532 gtdawg : There is also another company starting to do this, »www.sanswire.com/stratellites.htm. Probably pretty pricey to start if they even talk to small businesses at all. Most likely just looking at Cell/TV broadcasting :mad:.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14200532 Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:30:59 EDT Re: Using balloons for wireless internet? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14200500 jober : To mrbueno,
I was thinking and trying in 1994. And the first time I heard of any large scale trials was in 2000 or later. I'm not saying in any way that I was the first to try this, but now that other people are really going to do it, I can show the people the said I was crazy that it is going to work.
One person being my know it all brother in law. He owned 3 planes so I guess he thought that made him an expert on any thing in the air.
I told him I wanted to buy a goodyear blimp, mount big ass antennas on the bottom, throw some solar panels on the top, install a remote control system and park it up around 12 mile over the city.
So, right way he started telling me why it was not going to work. He made a big deal in front of his family about this dumb idea. So you can imagine how happy I was to show them all that it wasn't that dumb of an idea.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14200500 Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:27:18 EDT Re: Using balloons for wireless internet? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14199642 mrbueno : You guys are so three years ago. ;)
»www.ewire.com/display.cfm/Wire_ID/1253]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14199642 Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:27:43 EDT Re: Using balloons for wireless internet? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14198890 haggleza : I'm not sure if there are any legal obstacles, but has anybody tried using hydrogen as the lifting gas instead of helium. Some weather balloons use hydrogen. Hydrogen has a higher lifting factor and costs less than half of what helium costs. As these balloons don’t carry people the safety aspect is not so critical. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14198890 Tue, 23 Aug 2005 07:53:00 EDT Re: Using balloons for wireless internet? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14198050 jober : LOL, Can you say typo! hehe that is up to 150 feet.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14198050 Tue, 23 Aug 2005 01:36:38 EDT Re: Using balloons for wireless internet? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14197612 polk5 : the trees here get up to 1500 tall.
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jober, What kind of trees you'll growing there 1500' tall? ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14197612 Tue, 23 Aug 2005 00:22:43 EDT Re: Using balloons for wireless internet? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14192611 cmaenginsb : A balloon would be a great idea for a temporary internet setup. Think county fair or something like that.

I'm curious, since you only put minimal gear like the antenna and transciever on the tower how you feel that cost of damage caused by the lightening stike is going to be different?

As to a 4 point tether system, the ballon is still going to be bouncing about enough that your range would not be the same as a similiar height tower. Then you get into the fact that it would be challenging to place sectors on the balloon as well.

Most people using towers have 3 or more radios on them, including backhaul.

My question about maintainance is that you do understand that really the only maintainance done to a tower mounted radio is replacing it when it fails. So you would have to have 2 radios on the blimp, one as a "standby" or the balloon would have to come down. Of course if you wanted to replace the bad radio it would have to come down as well.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14192611 Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:27:00 EDT Re: Using balloons for wireless internet? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14192526 jober : Yes, yes, all the bad points of a balloon. LOL
But, If you could get a balloon up to 2500 to 5000 feet you would have some great coverage.
Oh, and the FAA told me as long as I did not go over 150 feet I could do it with out any red tape or other paper work.
only problem is, the trees here get up to 1500 tall. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14192526 Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:12:54 EDT Re: Using balloons for wireless internet? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14191245 Yahkin : We actually did a lot of research into this idea. We thought it would be a good idea to feed a remote subdivision, and we could put advertising on the balloon as a gimmick too.

But...

Many things to consider.
1) FAA - Tethered baloons have a lot of regulations. You must have flags every so many feet on the tethers, you must have a light on the balloon if it will remain in the air at night, and if it will fly above a certain height you will need a permit. Flags, lights, and the electronics to run them all add weight. Permits add cost.

2) Gas loss - You can spend some good money and get a balloon that will hold helium a lot better than a weather balloon. But no balloon will hold helium forever. Best case from what we could find was refills every 4-6 weeks. Autofill systems exist, but the delivery hose also adds to your weight calculation.

3) Neighbors - Have you ever seen a 12 foot balloon? The neighbors will find it humorous for about an hour, then they will be complaining to the city, state, FBI, FCC, and anyone else that will listen to em.

4) Kids - Yes, that's right. I know If my neighbor put a big balloon up next door, that they might as well have painted a big target on the side of it. I would have immediately ran down and grabbed my bb gun or .22.

5) Competition - See #4 above. :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14191245 Mon, 22 Aug 2005 10:06:15 EDT Re: Using balloons for wireless internet? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14190317 jober : I did testing with a 8'x16' tethered blimp. I put an AP on the bottom with a 9db omni.
With the 150' rope it worked great. I used an old but new at the time 2meg zcomax450 AP in repeater mode. Also had a cat5 cable wire tied to the rope for power and ethernet.
I got 15 mile to a tower that had a 24db grid with a 1 watt amp.
A blimp is better then a ball because a ball will move all over the place, but the blimp would hold it's position a lot better.
I had high hopes of putting up a bigger one, at about 2500' but there was to much red tape with the FAA and not to mention the people laughing and calling me crazy. This was in the mid 90's when people also said I was a dumb ass for running power over my ethernet cable.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14190317 Mon, 22 Aug 2005 04:06:44 EDT Re: Using balloons for wireless internet? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14190219 polk5 : I had a 12' blimp at my showroom I was using for advertisment at one time. I had to recharge that thing up every night. I bet it would cost 1K a month anyway to keep that thing floating. A tower is a one time cost and will will last many years. You would have to rent the space for a tower if you did not have it but you would have to do the same for a weather balloon as well. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14190219 Mon, 22 Aug 2005 02:57:34 EDT Re: Using balloons for wireless internet? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14190189 robbin : I don't think you are considering what will happen when the wind blows. The stronger the wind, the more the balloon is pushed and as it is pushed it will also come down pivoting on the tethers. Then add gusty winds, and you still have the thing bobbing all over the place no matter how many tethers.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14190189 Mon, 22 Aug 2005 02:47:05 EDT Re: Using balloons for wireless internet? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14190140 anon : An 8 foot diameter balloon should use around 250-300 cubic feet of helium. At $0.30 per CF, that would be $90 to completely fill the balloon. Even if you had to completely fill it monthly, that's not that bad considering the cost savings.

wispman, you're right that weight is at a premium. An 8 foot balloon, with 250-300 CF of helium, would lift about 15 pounds. Balloons in that range, based on my investigations of eBay, generally weigh around 6 pounds. That would leave 9 pounds for payload, tethers, and the rest. 100 feet of Cat5 cable (assuming I used that altitude) would be very roughly around 1.5 lb, plus figure two pounds for the circuity, another pound for the casing and rope, and that doesn't leave a whole lot of room for antennas, even if you used featherweight tethers. One way around that would be to use a bigger balloon. A 12 foot balloon would provide 74 pounds of lift, minus its own weight. Of course, that would increase the expense considerably. A simpler way might be to bind 2-3 balloons of the 7-8 foot size discussed earlier together, thus producing 18-27 pounds of payload.

Part of the reason the balloon idea appeals to me is because to some degree I really want to provide WiFi. I've been plotting out a system based on Alvarion BreezeAccess hardware, but I've always harbored a desire to offer real, pervasive WiFi. Unfortunately, due to the terrain, trying to offer it from ground level would be difficult (few tall structures in town, and plenty of trees). A balloon carrying MIMO gear seemed like a relatively simple way to do it over a broad area. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14190140 Mon, 22 Aug 2005 02:30:32 EDT Re: Using balloons for wireless internet? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14189550 polk5 : I could see my competition now taking popshots at my tower/Baloons. Helium isnt cheap. It would cost way too much to keep this thing full. I just couldnt see this working as a viable solution. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14189550 Mon, 22 Aug 2005 00:15:12 EDT Re: Using balloons for wireless internet? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14189549 wispman : Sound like a fun thing to try. Imagine if you could "get by" with this setup until you could hire a tower built.

A question.....I bet it would be one hundred pounds that balloon would have to hold. 4 guy wires, cat five, radio, antenna. It adds up fast. Oh, and I would use 3 guy wires. Get rid of the weight of the fourth one. If you do this, document if very well written and with digital photos. It sounds neat.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14189549 Mon, 22 Aug 2005 00:14:53 EDT Using balloons for wireless internet? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14189250 anon : An odd thought occurred to me today. I've been planning a system using 3 x 100 foot towers to offer wireless connectivity to a valley area. But I've begun to wonder whether would it be practical to use one or more stationary balloons, such as weather balloons, as my radio platform.

I would only need a minimum of gear on the actual balloon--an antenna, transceiver, and flight systems. Everything else could be handled on the ground. It would also have the positive attribute of being relatively cheap and expendable, so that in case of a lightning strike you're out a few hundred dollars, rather than a few thousand.

A 12 DBi omnidirectional antenna would be mounted directly to the balloon's payload rope. I'd attach four tether lines secured a distance apart in an X formation, so that no matter what direction the wind is blowing from, the balloon will always be in more or less the same place. Run a cable along one of the tethers, to provide power and data. With effective remote maintainance, you'd only have to bring down the balloon once in awhile, mostly to top off the helium.

I realize that this wouldn't be effective for a large area, nor as durable as a tower, but according to RadioMobile, it would cover most of the area I'm looking at. It would also be a lot cheaper than building towers--If I needed to, I could produce ten of them for the same cost as a tower. I know that there's been a lot of talk about using blimps for this sort of thing. Has anyone had success using smaller items like balloons? ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,14189250 Sun, 21 Aug 2005 23:23:35 EDT