Re: WRONG in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r13601739 en Sat, 28 Nov 2009 19:17:49 EDT Sat, 28 Nov 2009 19:17:49 EDT Re: That's A Good Knee Slapper http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13612438 major marco :
said by fundamentalz See Profile:

good job of proving my point by labeling people that disagree as cry babies.
People who hit the hey mod button are crybabies. That was my point.
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»www.hermes-press.com/brainwash1.htm ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13612438 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 21:08:17 EDT Re: That's A Good Knee Slapper http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13612394 fundamentalz : "Hey Mod"ing a comment does not guarantee that it will be deleted, simply that the post is brought to their attention. The call of whether or not to delete a post is their discretion. If they agree that the post was inflamitory, then i am sure that they will take the appropriate action.

By the way, good job of proving my point by labeling people that disagree as cry babies.
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I subscribe to the theory of intellectual osmosis. Unfortunately, I must now cease our conversation and move away from you before my intelligence begins to drop. Good day.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13612394 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 21:02:50 EDT Re: That's A Good Knee Slapper http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13612228 major marco :
said by fundamentalz See Profile:

I hardly think that public discourse includes anyone who disagrees with the majority opinion to be immediately branded and ostracized. Discourse is fine, but the personal attacks that are becoming all too common in the news posts around here are doing nothing to enhance the discussion
Then do what everyone else does. Go crying to the thought police and hey mod the post. That will result in your comments being deleted and the discussion getting locked followed by a sanctimonious warning for flaming or trolling which are fun euphemisms used to let you know that some crybaby didn't like your opinion.
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»www.hermes-press.com/brainwash1.htm ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13612228 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 20:46:53 EDT Re: That's A Good Knee Slapper http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13612079 fundamentalz : I hardly think that public discourse includes anyone who disagrees with the majority opinion to be immediately branded and ostracized. Discourse is fine, but the personal attacks that are becoming all too common in the news posts around here are doing nothing to enhance the discussion
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I subscribe to the theory of intellectual osmosis. Unfortunately, I must now cease our conversation and move away from you before my intelligence begins to drop. Good day.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13612079 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 20:28:10 EDT Re: That's A Good Knee Slapper http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13611609 major marco :
said by fundamentalz See Profile:

What i mean by that is the act of one person stating their opinion on a subject, with all people following just saying "I totally agree". In the occasion that someone disagrees you just get the majority flaming the minority opinion. This usually happens when someone brings up a piracy related issue, when any news regarding countries other than U.S. taking ownership of the internet, or when politicians are mentioned somehow
Funny but I thought that's what free speech and public discourse was all about.
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»www.hermes-press.com/brainwash1.htm ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13611609 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 19:31:58 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13611457 major marco :
said by Derek_Wildstar See Profile:

Looks like the pissing contest has begun in earnest.
Many thanks to the Department of the Obvious for noticing. :uhh:
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»www.hermes-press.com/brainwash1.htm ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13611457 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 19:14:10 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13611376 Derek_Wildstar :
said by RadioDoc See Profile:

said by Steve See Profile:

said by RadioDoc See Profile:

You are not a mod anymore either (gee I wonder why?)
I resigned; shall we speculate about you?
No need to speculate. I stood up to the bullshit that made people like you a mod and called a spade a spade. I refused to compromise my beliefs. They fired me for it. You resigned because you couldn't take the heat.
Looks like the pissing contest has begun in earnest.
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"One thousand years of pain!"
All hail the Hypnotoad!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13611376 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 19:06:17 EDT Re: That's A Good Knee Slapper http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13611252 fundamentalz :
said by major marco See Profile:

Define hate rallies.
What i mean by that is the act of one person stating their opinion on a subject, with all people following just saying "I totally agree". In the occasion that someone disagrees you just get the majority flaming the minority opinion. This usually happens when someone brings up a piracy related issue, when any news regarding countries other than U.S. taking ownership of the internet, or when politicians are mentioned somehow
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I subscribe to the theory of intellectual osmosis. Unfortunately, I must now cease our conversation and move away from you before my intelligence begins to drop. Good day.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13611252 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 18:53:13 EDT Re: That's A Good Knee Slapper http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13611179 major marco :
said by fundamentalz See Profile:

I for one, am tired of the hate rally's that are the news postings relating to either piracy/RIAA, politicians, or international issues.
Define hate rallies.
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»www.hermes-press.com/brainwash1.htm ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13611179 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 18:45:46 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13608554 Steve :
said by SRFireside See Profile:

Please clarify. Are you against casual file trading where people just share and download a few songs or just the power users who brag about the gigs of stuff they have and would rather pay hundreds of dollars NOT paying for music? You didn't really clarify that on the start, and that might account for some of the bickering.
I thought I was pretty clear on this ("burning through their 50G caps"), but I'll say it explicity.

Almost everybody shares with their friends, and this is not new to the computer world: making a copy of a cassette was common years and years ago. It's not really legal, but in many cases this casual trading *does* lead to music purchases. I know that people have sent me MP3s before: if I like it, I buy it.

Or if you own a vinyl album, grabbing the MP3 of a song that somebody else ripped doesn't seem like "stealing" to me either. You own a license to the music, you're just getting the bits in a different form.

These folks are not the problem.

It's the power users who are flagrant and brazen about it. I've heard people say "I won't ever pay for music" who are the problem. It's the teenagers to whom it *never occurs to them* that music is something you buy who are the problem.

Steve
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Stephen J. Friedl • Unix Wizard • Microsoft Security MVP • Tustin, California USA • my web site]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13608554 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 13:39:05 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13606796 anon : sorry C. above should be "reduce the number of BURNS"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13606796 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 09:56:08 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13606784 SRFireside : Please clarify. Are you against casual file trading where people just share and download a few songs or just the power users who brag about the gigs of stuff they have and would rather pay hundreds of dollars NOT paying for music? You didn't really clarify that on the start, and that might account for some of the bickering. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13606784 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 09:53:53 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13606776 anon : I wouldn't refer to the service as mediocre. I think it is a solid service. I think this distracts from the main point.

I would like to explain, though, why I think it is a bad idea to participate in these services.

I understand your argument that you do not feel the terms are restricting you presently. That is valid, but the fact remains that those terms are not legal obligations on their part. They can change those terms whenever they choose and, because you are tied down to a drm system, they can enforce those changes with simple software alterations. With cd sales, if the industry tried to force retroactive changes in what was considered acceptable use, of what you had previously purchased, they had, as a practical matter, no power to enforce such changes on you. DRM acts as a lock in. Once you are in it your use of what you have purchased is under their control and you have no way to get out, without giving up use of everything you bought.

You actually have LESS freedom then you did under cd distribution where their ability to dictate terms as to how you used what you purchased was limited by practical realities. This is the reality of drm in the internet age. It is actually creating a world where the buyer has LESS freedom and power than they did with the old distribution models.

Why should we allow the industry to construct new models that give them even greater control than they had before? This turns the openness and freedom of the internet on its head.

This is why drm is so insidious. It places ALL the power in their hands and it allows them to change all the terms at any time, for any reason they choose. People don't seem to notice this fact underneath the generous terms of service. Don't be seduced into believing that, because the present terms are reasonable, you are in the same situation as you were with the cd distribution model. You are, in fact, handing more power over to the industry.

I think it is naive to believe that the terms you are presently under are anything other than a carrot to get people to buy into a drm system. Once the majority of people have accepted such a system control will be tightened down. There is no reason to think that the industry view has changed in any fundamental way in this regard.

People say, well you can burn it and rerip it. True and this is why I think it is naive to believe that they won't be doing away with burning down the road. There are already indications that the industry is pressuring to A. increase prices to 1.5 to 2.5 per track if they can't B. get rid of per track downloads entirely and force the purchase of full albums. C. reduce the number of downloads(and there is little doubt, in my mind, that this number will be reduced little by little until it is zero burns).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13606776 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 09:52:43 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13606765 SRFireside : You're getting way out of line. Take the personal insults and attacks on a private message. That goes for all of you. Now about this topic. iTunes is a success because it draws in a lot of business. Doesn't matter if P2P numbers are higher. The RIAA said a song download business model wouldn't fly, yet here it is. It's still flying in spite of Apple hardly making any money.

Drex_CS's original post was off the mark to begin with. Doesn't matter if the claims from iTunes is correct or not. At this point they certainly are the most popular paid download service there is. On the business end that's what counts. You all should be happy about this. That means the RIAA was wrong about the business model and don't have nearly as much leverage in fighting file trading. It means people are buying music instead of getting it for free, thus further diminishing the RIAA's claims. It means artists are getting some money for their efforts (at least in pianotech's case). It's a win-win situation no matter what side of the fence you are on.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13606765 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 09:51:40 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13605128 jsouth : Actually that is the RIAA in this case, but who's counting. Thier both crooked.
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BTK is Caught!!!!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13605128 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 01:27:18 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604901 N Yazdi : itunes is a very nifty program when you play around with it, i was a mmjb/wmp/winamp user but now use itunes almost exclusively]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604901 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:42:34 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604827 BeesTea : I don't sing for anyone, just as you say, calling "a spade a spade".
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$ /bin/whoami
nobody]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604827 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:31:10 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604771 BeesTea :
said by RadioDoc See Profile:

Nowhere is there anything about "piracy".
Well, other than the News topic that is.

Forums » News articles » iTunes Vs. Piracy » WRONG

It's also the first word of the first post in this thread.

C'mon
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$ /bin/whoami
nobody]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604771 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:23:40 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604769 RadioDoc :
said by Steve See Profile:

said by RadioDoc See Profile:

You are not a mod anymore either (gee I wonder why?)
I resigned; shall we speculate about you?
No need to speculate. I stood up to the bullshit that made people like you a mod and called a spade a spade. I refused to compromise my beliefs. They fired me for it. You resigned because you couldn't take the heat.
The greed of the RIAA-member companies is legendary. You can't make that go away by using sleazy debating tactics.
I don't believe I ever tried to. Holding the thread up to a strong light, we see that I called them thugs and hoped that their entire business model would go away. I am not sure that qualifies me as any kind of RIAA fanboy.

But they are not the only greedy ones. Those who are trying to bring about better business models are doing good work, but there is a large contingent of those who are not taking this principled approach, and just take everything they can get without any consideration for artists and won't ever pay anybody.

RIAA's greed at least has a fig leaf of moral cover, in that they are acting as agents for valid copyright owners. Those who steal in wholesale have no such principled cover.

Steve
At the point where you inserted your tired "pirate" tirade, nobody was defending anything about "piracy". They were talking about the iTunes hype machine. You ran this one into pirateland. As usual.
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Attitudes are contagious. Mine might kill you.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604769 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:23:11 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604735 deblin :
said by RadioDoc See Profile:

This is about iTunes alleged success. Nowhere is there anything about "piracy".
And the OP's statements didn't insinuate people aren't still stealing music via iTunes? I'd call that piracy.
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$(perl -e 'print pack("H*","6d616e207065726c0a")')]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604735 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:19:30 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604732 Steve :
said by RadioDoc See Profile:

This is about iTunes alleged success. Nowhere is there anything about "piracy".

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Stephen J. Friedl • Unix Wizard • Microsoft Security MVP • Tustin, California USA • my web site

Oh yah?
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604732 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:19:23 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604730 yock :
said by Complete original post; emphasis added:
Enron also LOOKED like it was doing well.

Itunes _ONLY_ purpose for apple is a promotional tool for ipods. Apple (as well as the artists) make hardly anything (a couple cents) off of each download because of the greedy record companies.
Steve's post looks quite apropos when you look at the entire thing.
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This signiture pisses you off.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604730 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:19:11 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604701 RadioDoc : I know what Steve See Profile's point is. My point is that he crapped the thread again pushing it where it doesn't belong.

said by Original post:

Itunes _ONLY_ purpose for apple is a promotional tool for ipods. Apple (as well as the artists) make hardly anything (a couple cents) off of each download because of the greedy record companies.
said by Steve See Profile's ad hominem response:

As opposed to the greedy users, who think nothing of stealing every bit of music they can find?
This is about iTunes alleged success. Nowhere is there anything about "piracy".
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Attitudes are contagious. Mine might kill you.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604701 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:16:40 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604694 Steve :
said by RadioDoc See Profile:

You are not a mod anymore either (gee I wonder why?)
I resigned; shall we speculate about you?
The greed of the RIAA-member companies is legendary. You can't make that go away by using sleazy debating tactics.
I don't believe I ever tried to. Holding the thread up to a strong light, we see that I called them thugs and hoped that their entire business model would go away. I am not sure that qualifies me as any kind of RIAA fanboy.

But they are not the only greedy ones. Those who are trying to bring about better business models are doing good work, but there is a large contingent of those who are not taking this principled approach, and just take everything they can get without any consideration for artists and won't ever pay anybody.

RIAA's greed at least has a fig leaf of moral cover, in that they are acting as agents for valid copyright owners. Those who steal in wholesale have no such principled cover.

Steve
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Stephen J. Friedl • Unix Wizard • Microsoft Security MVP • Tustin, California USA • my web site]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604694 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:16:01 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604677 deblin :
said by yock See Profile:

Steve See Profile's argument is that their greed isn't a valid reason to engage in piracy.
Couldn't agree more.
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$(perl -e 'print pack("H*","6d616e207065726c0a")')]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604677 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:14:03 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604651 yock :
said by RadioDoc See Profile:

The greed of the RIAA-member companies is legendary. You can't make that go away by using sleazy debating tactics.
Steve See Profile's argument is that their greed isn't a valid reason to engage in piracy. It's an entirely moot point and he's completely right.

Show me the part in the rule books where wrongs should be counter-acted upon by an equal wrong.
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This signiture pisses you off.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604651 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:11:36 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604615 thender2 : excuse the bad grammar/syntax: it's been a long day, and I'm tired

It's an odd thing.

I hate buying CDs because I know that money is

a) going to the people who wish to sue me for dling music

b) going mostly to the labels and not to the artist

c) way too much to spend for a media technology over 20 years old with obvious limitations, AFTER they got in trouble for fixing prices(and continue to get away with it)

However, with this "stealing", with a variety of lossless and lossy copies of what I want available, I now own over 13 albums. Three of them, an OST, combine to be worth over $150. Before I began downloading music, I had one eminem CD, which I now seriously regret buying.

My point is that, wheather it's because people still want the original, yet don't always want to deal with a cumbersome physical copy, or wheather they don't feel like paying immediately, it works in the label's favor. Even with their currently horrible business model(artist gets shit: and CDs are extremely expensive), CD sales went up 11% the first year napster was popular and 5% the year after, and only sunk down the year when the RIAA created less than half the amount of CDs as the year before.

While in black & white terms, one may see it as morally wrong, I see it as practically right since it seems to be helping their business. The U.S. has done things like this too, when they fixed other countries's elections to prevent the spread of communism. Was it morally wrong? Yes, but was it the practical thing to do? Yes, and it wound up benefitting many.. to me, it's the same here. :)
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The Problem With Music.
Our Rationale
Time to rewrite the DMCA.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604615 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:08:34 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604612 RadioDoc : And again. You really don't get it, do you?

You are not a mod anymore either (gee I wonder why?), so you have no right to determine who is and who is not a moron. However, calling someone a moron here is a violation of the site's posting rules.

The OP stated a fact, and then an opinion. You flamed the person and ignored the question, just like any garden-variety message board troll always does. Putting certain words in bold face makes you look even sillier. You have no basis for your attack so you just talk louder.

The greed of the RIAA-member companies is legendary. You can't make that go away by using sleazy debating tactics.
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Attitudes are contagious. Mine might kill you.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604612 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:08:18 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604572 redhatnation :
said by RadioDoc See Profile:

said by redhatnation See Profile:

said by RadioDoc See Profile:

iTunes is mediocre at best.
Can you enlighten this iTunes user about why you think it is mediocre at best? Seriously.
Sure. So far I've got less than a 50% "find" rate via iTunes (yes I am an iTunes user too) on click-through from Radio Paradise and a couple other major online Internet radio stations, not oddball obscure stuff nobody ever heard of. It seems that if it's not mass-appeal pop there is very little there. If they want to be viable in the long run they need to significantly widen the library.
Thank you for the reply. That's a good point. While I haven't kept track of my find rate, I'm a classical music kook -- and iTunes has been more miss than hit in that department.
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My server has been up longer than your server.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604572 Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:04:27 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604526 redhatnation :
said by guitarzan See Profile:

said by redhatnation See Profile:

said by RadioDoc See Profile:

iTunes is mediocre at best.
Can you enlighten this iTunes user about why you think it is mediocre at best? Seriously.
I'll try,Itunes uses whats called DRM. Digital Rights Management.Which determines and/or limits,Where and an what you may play your legally purchased music on.In other words
you did not purchase music.Only the right to play it.
While I can understand the point, Apple's DRM hasn't gotten in my way yet. I can rip my tunes to Audio CDs and play them in the car. I can copy my tunes to my ipod and listen to them at the gym, walking, on the subway. I could even re-rip the Audio CD back to MP3 if I so desired.

What else?
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My server has been up longer than your server.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604526 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 23:59:32 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604465 Uhawl :
said by Anonymous See Profile:

But there are few members that keep bitching about it. It gets old.
Oh well... If you don't want to read their replies to stuff, then don't. Justin was kind enough to provide us with an ignore feature. :huh:
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Spare cycles???]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604465 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 23:51:42 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604452 Steve :
said by RadioDoc See Profile:

Just as expected you don't address the question--again--but instead attack the questioner.
I've been squarely addressing the topic in this thread, and it looks to have been a lively discussion with pretty good points raised on the "other" side and bringing about a clarity of views.

The only two off-topic posts have been yours and Mr. STFU.

Steve
--
Stephen J. Friedl • Unix Wizard • Microsoft Security MVP • Tustin, California USA • my web site]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604452 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 23:49:50 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604416 G_Poobah : "I'll try,Itunes uses whats called DRM. Digital Rights Management.Which determines and/or limits,Where and an what you may play your legally purchased music on.In other words
you did not purchase music.Only the right to play it."

Whoa there! First, it's called 'Digital Restrictions' not 'Digital Rights'. It takes away rights, it doesn't give them to you. Don't fall into the trap of using their doublespeak words. Allow me to explais, as I can play all my CD music just fine on my computer, and MP3's too, all without 'Digital Restrictions'. Please explain what 'Rights' I get under their 'Digital RIGHTS Management' that I don't already have?

Now, to the sticky point.. "I did not purchase the music".. or... "I purchased the right to play it".

Ok, so, when I buy a CD, did I purchase the music? How is that any different than if I buy it from the itunes store? I mean, both are DIGITAL FORMATS of the same song, in fact, the CD is much higher quality. Does the fact that I bought it online take away my right of First Sale? Hmm.. Sorry, an EULA cannot take away the right of first sale, as the RIAA discovered when they tried to shut down used CD stores. So, I purchased the music, but, if you want to be very picky, and 'follow the EULA', then I purchased the right to play that music, but not that music (even if I bought a CD).

Ok, so I've purchased the right to play the music, well then, that's even better! I can thus download the MP3 version of it, and hey, SHARE the MP3 version of it, to anyone else who has purchased 'the right to play the song'. Cause, remember, I purchased the RIGHT to play it, it's not my job to make sure the other person has purchased the same rights, I've done my job, I paid for it.

Which is it? They can't have it both ways. Either I bought a physical product, of which I can do with what I want, and no EULA can take away those rights, or I purchased the right to listen to a song by artist xyz, in which case I can download the MP3 version, etc, etc, all within my legal rights.

The rightthink and doublespeak of the industry survived for a long time, because the only 'effective' way to get music was via a physical medium (LP, Tape, CD). Of course, time has show that ANY attempt to 'RESTRICT' what people can do with their legally purchased product is doomed to fail (i.e. DAT tapes, Itunes cracked, etc). People know the DCMA is a flawed stupid act, and can't be enforced outside of the US. Now, a law that you can't enforce is bad. But a law that you enforce soley for the benefit of the mafia coroporations, well that's how revolutions are started.
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Grand Poobah]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604416 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 23:46:20 EDT Re: That's A Good Knee Slapper http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604346 fundamentalz :
said by major marco See Profile:

Exsqueeze me while I fall off my chair and try not to die of hysteria. Hahhahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahah hahahahaha hahahahaaahahah. Apparently you don't get around the site very often.
The thing is, i really do. I for one, am tired of the hate rally's that are the news postings relating to either piracy/RIAA, politicians, or international issues. All the same things are hashed out again and again. Frankly, i was amazed that Steve See Profile even bothered to defend his posts at all, seeing that it is almost useless to post any non conforming opinion anymore
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I subscribe to the theory of intellectual osmosis. Unfortunately, I must now cease our conversation and move away from you before my intelligence begins to drop. Good day.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604346 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 23:37:00 EDT That's A Good Knee Slapper http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604003 major marco :
said by fundamentalz See Profile:

what kind of forum would this be if all we ever got was one side of an issue.
Exsqueeze me while I fall off my chair and try not to die of hysteria. Hahhahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahah hahahahaha hahahahaaahahah. Apparently you don't get around the site very often.
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»www.hermes-press.com/brainwash1.htm ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13604003 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 23:00:18 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13603916 Anonymous : But there are few members that keep bitching about it. It gets old.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13603916 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 22:51:28 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13603840 Steve :
said by Fatal Vector:

.The RIAA does not own the material, or "property". The record labels and artists do.
They apparently have the legal right to go after violators on behalf of the artists/labels. I used the term inartfully, but the fact that it's agency relationship rather than an ownership one doesn't change the big picture that much.

In that respect the labels have done a good job: RIAA is Satan incarnate, while the labels don't take anywhere near the heat the should.

Nothing would please me more than to see the whole business model disappear, replaced with something more decentralized and more sensitive to actual market forces. It's hard to imagine a worse system than we have now.

Those who want to change the system to benefit the users and artists are doing everybody a service, but those who steal with no intention of every paying (under any business model) are not.

Steve
--
Stephen J. Friedl • Unix Wizard • Microsoft Security MVP • Tustin, California USA • my web site]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13603840 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 22:44:19 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13603818 RadioDoc :
said by Steve See Profile:

said by RadioDoc See Profile:

Way to crap the thread there, Steve See Profile. Nowhere in that response was "pirate", "thief" or even "P2P" mentioned.
So discussing piracy and greed in a thread about piracy and greed is off topic? No wonder you're not a moderator anymore
Your love affair with Apple
HUH?
Just as expected you don't address the question--again--but instead attack the questioner. That's at least twice in this subthread alone now. You have no basis for your stand so you resort to even more off topic nonsense. Go back to Usenet.
--
Attitudes are contagious. Mine might kill you.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13603818 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 22:42:03 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13603772 RadioDoc :
said by redhatnation See Profile:

said by RadioDoc See Profile:

iTunes is mediocre at best.
Can you enlighten this iTunes user about why you think it is mediocre at best? Seriously.
Sure. So far I've got less than a 50% "find" rate via iTunes (yes I am an iTunes user too) on click-through from Radio Paradise and a couple other major online Internet radio stations, not oddball obscure stuff nobody ever heard of. It seems that if it's not mass-appeal pop there is very little there. If they want to be viable in the long run they need to significantly widen the library.
--
Attitudes are contagious. Mine might kill you.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13603772 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 22:36:35 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13603752 anon :
UMMM...The RIAA does not own the material, or "property". The record labels and artists do. The RIAA is only the association formed by these labels to represent them, particularly with the government. The RIAA is the lobbying arm of the industry. The Labels act through them so that they dont have to take the PR heat directly over their suing spree and tactics. That's what "Associations" are for. If the RIAA gets crapped upon in the public eye, the labels will disavow their actions, and then when the heat dies down, the RIAA will simply morph to another corporate name and carry on.

"As allways, if you are caught or killed, the secretary will disavow your actions. Good luck, Mr Phelps".]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13603752 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 22:34:53 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13603490 anon : Don't cry like a baby when someone disagrees with you. I totally agree with what Steve said, its a great point.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13603490 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 22:11:39 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13603467 guitarzan :
said by redhatnation See Profile:

said by RadioDoc See Profile:

iTunes is mediocre at best.
Can you enlighten this iTunes user about why you think it is mediocre at best? Seriously.
I'll try,Itunes uses whats called DRM. Digital Rights Management.Which determines and/or limits,Where and an what you may play your legally purchased music on.In other words
you did not purchase music.Only the right to play it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13603467 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 22:09:46 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13603457 Uhawl :
said by fundamentalz See Profile:

said by Anonymous See Profile:

Why don't you STFU?

If you got a problem with piracy go somewhere else and bitch.

Anonymous
Not taking a side here, but what kind of forum would this be if all we ever got was one side of an issue. Disagree with him or not, everyone should get a chance to voice their thoughts on a topic without being slammed for it
Well said.
--
Spare cycles???]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13603457 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 22:09:03 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13603251 fundamentalz :
said by Anonymous See Profile:

Why don't you STFU?

If you got a problem with piracy go somewhere else and bitch.

Anonymous
Not taking a side here, but what kind of forum would this be if all we ever got was one side of an issue. Disagree with him or not, everyone should get a chance to voice their thoughts on a topic without being slammed for it
--
I subscribe to the theory of intellectual osmosis. Unfortunately, I must now cease our conversation and move away from you before my intelligence begins to drop. Good day.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13603251 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 21:48:10 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13602970 BonezX : but remember, after the IP owner dies it gets transfered(or is allready owned) by the record company, so even after the artist is long dead somebody other then the artists family is making money off it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13602970 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 21:20:15 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13602912 pianotech :
Wow, this is the money you get per-song via iTunes? That's actually very good. Do they have a blanket policy of selling anyone hooked in to CDBaby? Does CDBaby take any of that?
Yep, that's the take from iTunes, which I agree is quite good. CDBaby takes 9% of my take, and the $.65 is what I get after iTunes and CDBaby get their share. Not a bad deal at all, all things considered. I'd rather they do it without DRM though.

And yes, anyone who has a CD with CDBaby will be on all the major sites (Rhapsody, iTunes, Napster, MusicNet, MusicMatch, etc) as long as they've signed the non-exclusive digital distribution deal with them.

Have you ever been to »www.mp3tunes.com? They sell the entire CDBaby catalog in open mp3 format, and it's in VBR mp3's. Very good quality, no drm! Magnatune is good too ( »www.magnatune.com ) if you haven't tried it out yet. No major label stuff there though...
--
Original music, no drm
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13602912 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 21:12:50 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13602816 redhatnation :
said by RadioDoc See Profile:

iTunes is mediocre at best.
Can you enlighten this iTunes user about why you think it is mediocre at best? Seriously.
--
My server has been up longer than your server.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13602816 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 21:01:19 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13602773 sporkme :
said by pianotech See Profile:

]I don't disagree about the major labels being greedy, but remember that iTunes also sells a lot of indie label artists (and also unsigned artists throug CDBaby) too. I make 65 cents per download, which is more than a "couple cents."
Wow, this is the money you get per-song via iTunes? That's actually very good. Do they have a blanket policy of selling anyone hooked in to CDBaby? Does CDBaby take any of that?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13602773 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:57:09 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13602738 sporkme :
said by Steve See Profile:

said by RadioDoc See Profile:

Way to crap the thread there, Steve See Profile. Nowhere in that response was "pirate", "thief" or even "P2P" mentioned.
So discussing piracy and greed in a thread about piracy and greed is off topic? No wonder you're not a moderator anymore
Your love affair with Apple
HUH?
Heh heh. Steve's just Apple-Curious. :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13602738 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:54:22 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13602698 kamm :
said by Steve See Profile:

said by AbBaZaBbA See Profile:

because of the greedy record companies.
As opposed to the greedy users, who think nothing of stealing every bit of music they can find?

Steve
Oh yes. Let's talk about greedy corporations first, shall we?
When we finished, we can talk about user "greed".]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13602698 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:48:42 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13602676 Doctor Four : If you want to talk about piracy and greed, you need look
no further than the industry itself (or more precisely,
the Big Four). The current standard recording contract
scheme is by design exploitative of both artists and
ultimately, the consumer. Just visit Boycott-RIAA and
P2Pnet regularly, and you'll see beyond the industry's
doublespeak. Do major label artists get fairly compensated
for their work - CD sales or online downloads? Hardly. The
labels give them precious little of the profits (royalties)
from them. There have been numerous legal battles over this.
And speaking of lawsuits, not one penny of the $30 million
in settlement money has gone to any of the artists the
industry allegedly represents.

Indies and smaller label (non-RIAA affiliated)
artists do get better deals. But their music is
hardly ever played due to the RIAA marginalizing it
via Clear Channel and other means. They want to control
ALL music, not just their own. The real reason for stopping
filesharing is not any they've publicly claimed and that
much of the major media has parroted, but is control. For
most small and Indie labels, p2p is a godsend as there is
often no other way for listeners to get exposure to their
music. And that's what the RIAA is trying to stop.
--
"Kayura or Badamon, whichever you are, you should know that I will never give up this battle. By the will of the Ancient, I shall succeed!" - Shuten (Anubis) from the Ronin Warriors. To RIAA/MPAA - You can sue but you can't catch everyone!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13602676 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:46:04 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13602653 Steve :
said by mrchris See Profile:

Maybe you should clear that thick pro-RIAA head of yours and see the facts yourself:
I only "support" the RIAA in the narrow sense that they have legal ownership of the property they're "protecting", but everything I know about them suggests they're thugs to everybody they deal with. It's hard to imagine a worse way they could have addressed the whole music trading issue than the ham-fisted way they are doing now.
How do musicians get paid for downloads? Simple: collective licensing lets people download unlimited music for a flat monthly fee ($5-$10) and the money goes to musicians and labels according to popularity. This solution preserves the cultural benefits of p2p, gets musicians way more money, and levels the playing field.
I think this is a fantastic idea. Creating a new market for artists benefits everybody: artists, users, and the culture in general. I'd participate in this.

But (1) it must include only willing particpants, and (2) this has nothing to do with those who have no intention of paying for music no matter what the business model is.

Steve
--
Stephen J. Friedl • Unix Wizard • Microsoft Security MVP • Tustin, California USA • my web site]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13602653 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:43:42 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13602544 mrchris : Maybe you should clear that thick pro-RIAA head of yours and see the facts yourself:

»www.downhillbattle.org/reasons

Five major record labels have a monopoly that's bad for musicians and music culture, but now we have an opportunity to change that. We can use tools like filesharing to strengthen independent labels and end the major label monopoly.

How do musicians get paid for downloads? Simple: collective licensing lets people download unlimited music for a flat monthly fee ($5-$10) and the money goes to musicians and labels according to popularity. This solution preserves the cultural benefits of p2p, gets musicians way more money, and levels the playing field.

Our plan is to explain how the majors really work, develop software to make filesharing stronger, rally public support for a legal p2p compensation system, and connect independent music scenes with the free culture movement.

»www.negativland.com/albini.html

Read it and read it well, pro-RIAA boy...

»www.downhillbattle.org]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13602544 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:30:49 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13602505 Steve :
said by guitarzan See Profile:

The central economic distinction between information and physical property is that information can be transferred without leaving the possession of the original owner.
Yes, both you and G_Poobah See Profile make the completely correct point that "theft" and "stealing" only apply if the original owner is deprived of the use of the item. If I take a CD from your desk, it's clearly stealing, but if I merely make a copy then it is not.

I, however, continue to use this term informally and pejoratively in reference the the disdain for the rights of artists by those who engage in wholesale piracy.

Fair use and "hey check out this cool song" is smalltime stuff that most people don't care about. I certainly don't. The amount of trading that qualifies for "fair use" varies widely in different people (especially in those who take a dim view of the whole notion of intellectual property).

But being exposed to those who do this notoriously and brazenly: "I don't ever pay for music/ software/ DVDs", bragging about the size of their collections, preparing cover stories in case they are caught, etc. This bothers me a lot, and I don't mind calling them names.

Steve
--
Stephen J. Friedl • Unix Wizard • Microsoft Security MVP • Tustin, California USA • my web site]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13602505 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:27:12 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13602339 Steve :
said by RadioDoc See Profile:

Way to crap the thread there, Steve See Profile. Nowhere in that response was "pirate", "thief" or even "P2P" mentioned.
So discussing piracy and greed in a thread about piracy and greed is off topic? No wonder you're not a moderator anymore
Your love affair with Apple
HUH?
--
Stephen J. Friedl • Unix Wizard • Microsoft Security MVP • Tustin, California USA • my web site]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13602339 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:09:18 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13602335 guitarzan :
said by Steve See Profile:

said by AbBaZaBbA See Profile:

because of the greedy record companies.
As opposed to the greedy users, who think nothing of stealing every bit of music they can find?

Steve
The central economic distinction between information and physical property is that information can be transferred without leaving the possession of the original owner.

Unbounded intellectual property is very different from physical property and can no longer be protected as though these differences did not exist. For example, if we continue to assume that value is based on scarcity, as it is with regard to physical objects, we will create laws that are precisely contrary to the nature of information, which may, in many cases, increase in value with distribution.

Perhaps those who are part of the problem will simply quarantine themselves in court, while those who are part of the solution will create a new society based, at first, on piracy and freebooting. It may well be that when the current system of intellectual property law has collapsed, as seems inevitable, that no new legal structure will arise in its place.

The laws regarding unlicensed reproduction of commercial software are clear and stern...and rarely observed. Software piracy laws are so practically unenforceable and breaking them has become so socially acceptable that only a thin minority appears compelled, either by fear or conscience, to obey them.

Whenever there is such profound divergence between law and social practice, it is not society that adapts. Against the swift tide of custom, the software publishers' current practice of hanging a few visible scapegoats is so obviously capricious as to only further diminish respect for the law.

Part of the widespread disregard for commercial software copyrights stems from a legislative failure to understand the conditions into which it was inserted. To assume that systems of law based in the physical world will serve in an environment as fundamentally different as cyberspace is a folly for which everyone doing business in the future will pay.

When the primary articles of commerce in a society look so much like speech as to be indistinguishable from it, and when the traditional methods of protecting their ownership have become ineffectual, attempting to fix the problem with broader and more vigorous enforcement will inevitably threaten freedom of speech. The greatest constraint on your future liberties may come not from government but from corporate legal departments laboring to protect by force what can no longer be protected by practical efficiency or general social consent.

Furthermore, the increasing difficulty of enforcing existing copyright and patent laws is already placing in peril the ultimate source of intellectual property - the free exchange of ideas.
Can one explain how the sharing,(A copy) From an original
in this case a cd or song is stealing.? All I see is it's stealing.Your stealing,Your stealing.Money out of the mouths of the **AA's.When A.If that someone didn't buy the original
cd at this very moment.B.It's impossible to know after hearing the cd would one like it enough to purchase the disk..err contents.?. C.Most major art galleries will sell a reproduction of the original painting,at a fraction of the originals true value.Did the artist of the Mona Lisa get ripped off in that case.? No of course not.Suppose one hired a private artist to paint a picture from a book you borrowed.
Is that stealing from the original artist as well.? No of course not.Can some one please explain how one can label something theft,when the physical property,is in the hands of its owner.?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13602335 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:08:48 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13602288 RadioDoc : Way to crap the thread there, Steve See Profile. Nowhere in that response was "pirate", "thief" or even "P2P" mentioned. AbBaZaBbA See Profile makes a very valid point, which you evidently can't rebut so you trotted out the tired, lazy trick of off-topic distraction. Your love affair with Apple is clouding your vision. iTunes is mediocre at best.
--
Attitudes are contagious. Mine might kill you.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13602288 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:03:22 EDT Monopoly http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13602153 Tomek : RIAA has monopoly, so they do whatever they want.
Why CD price is comparable in price to DVD?
Greed.
At least with Video I know what I get.
--
Semper Fi]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13602153 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 19:48:56 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13602140 G_Poobah : Ahh, that of course, is where you are wrong.

"Stealing Music", of course, is the newspeak/doublespeak of the 2000's. I love how they use the word 'theft', when they are not deprived of anything, and the word "Pirate", to conjure up bloodthirsy lawless rapist. The reality is completely different. By the corporation definition, I am both a thief and a pirate, since I cracked the DRM on the music I legally paid for, and transferred it to my server so I can listen to it on my slimdevices mp3 player.

Stand back and look at the big picture, you'll see that today's corporations and governments have a terrifying similarity to George Orwell's dystopia. The events of 9/11 added an entire new beuraucracy (homeland security) for our government, and it's purpose is to POLICE OUR OWN CITIZENS. I am very alarmed at the invasiveness of the Patriot Act, and even more alarmed at a possible Patriot Act II, which would further expand government surveillance. In his works, Orwell recognized that "trading freedom for security is a death trap," and the whole concept of "homeland security" is a very seductive temptation used to calm the nerves of the proles, convincing them that the govt will take care of them. Only idiots trust their government. Power corrupts, and 2 years in Washington will corrupt even the most moral of men.
--
Grand Poobah]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13602140 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 19:47:50 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13602122 Steve :
said by pianotech See Profile:

That's debatable, really, and I'm speaking as an artist. Copyright law is far too reaching any more
Oh, this is a perfectly fair postiion. Copyright should draw some sort of balance, and there are principled position on both sides that can aim for moving the "rights" dial one way or the other.

But I don't see any way that the guy who burns through 50G of his cable modem cap ever month (not sending a dime to any artist) can escape being called "greedy", even if he dances around being called "thief".

Steve
--
Stephen J. Friedl • Unix Wizard • Microsoft Security MVP • Tustin, California USA • my web site]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13602122 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 19:46:03 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13601910 pianotech :
said by Steve See Profile:

said by AbBaZaBbA See Profile:

because of the greedy record companies.
As opposed to the greedy users, who think nothing of stealing every bit of music they can find?

Steve
That's debatable, really, and I'm speaking as an artist. Copyright law is far too reaching any more, far more than the "limited time" of protection that the original founding fathers envisioned. The first copyright secured protection for the IP owner for a term of 14 years. Now it's the owner's life + 75 years.

Lawrence Lessig, founder of Creative Commons, wrote an excellent book called The Free Culture in which me makes some very compelling points. The book is available as a free download at his website: »lessig.org]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13601910 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 19:21:56 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13601877 pianotech :
said by AbBaZaBbA See Profile:

Enron also LOOKED like it was doing well.

Apple (as well as the artists) make hardly anything (a couple cents) off of each download because of the greedy record companies.
I don't disagree about the major labels being greedy, but remember that iTunes also sells a lot of indie label artists (and also unsigned artists throug CDBaby) too. I make 65 cents per download, which is more than a "couple cents." ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13601877 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 19:17:23 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13601872 Anonymous : Why don't you STFU?

If you got a problem with piracy go somewhere else and bitch.

Anonymous]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13601872 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 19:16:26 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13601739 Steve :
said by AbBaZaBbA See Profile:

because of the greedy record companies.
As opposed to the greedy users, who think nothing of stealing every bit of music they can find?

Steve
--
Stephen J. Friedl • Unix Wizard • Microsoft Security MVP • Tustin, California USA • my web site]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13601739 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 18:59:16 EDT Re: WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13601699 AbBaZaBbA : Enron also LOOKED like it was doing well.

Itunes _ONLY_ purpose for apple is a promotional tool for ipods. Apple (as well as the artists) make hardly anything (a couple cents) off of each download because of the greedy record companies. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13601699 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 18:54:12 EDT WRONG http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13601684 Drex_CS : Piracy is ripping the hell out of iTunes, but it's all about the look. They LOOK like they're doing well so people trust them and give the MPAA more reason to be dumb@$$'s]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13601684 Tue, 07 Jun 2005 18:51:52 EDT