Re: Nice Speeds in

Re: Nice Speeds in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r13510648 en Sun, 29 Nov 2009 08:23:59 EDT Sun, 29 Nov 2009 08:23:59 EDT Re: Nice Speeds http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13671134 Rethink : I know a technology already that will give 1 Gig on a twised pair, so you're right already.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13671134 Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:55:41 EDT Re: Nice Speeds http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13535575 RadioDoc : No, I meant direct to the physical phone itself. But whatever.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13535575 Mon, 30 May 2005 20:18:24 EDT Re: Nice Speeds http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13525811 maartena :

said by RadioDoc

:

"There are so many issues with copper in the buildings"

So you are running fiber to the phones too?

As a matter of fact yes :) FIOS includes your phoneline, and the bad part of it is actually that they completely remove your copper so you can't go back to copper if you wanted to.
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And i'm right. I'm always right, but this time I'm a little more right then I usually am.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13525811 Sun, 29 May 2005 14:32:42 EDT Re: Nice Speeds http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13521916 BosstonesOwn : Your talking a nation wide scale I am talking area wide. As each area become profitable the money made there is used in another area. They are not stupid that is why verizon is rolling out the fiber.

Copper is dieing technology for telecom. As we become more wired to our world we need bigger and faster pipes. Nothing is accomplished by saving copper except pinching more pennies.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13521916 Sat, 28 May 2005 22:31:48 EDT Re: Nice Speeds http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13518076 bogey780 : 'Roll out like VZ is and after 12 months the service in the area breaks even.'

That's not even close to being accurate. VZ started something that'll take almost a decade to be completed and several more years before profit is seen.

Ask yourself what is accomplished by hanging onto copper if as you believe fiber is faster and cheaper?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13518076 Sat, 28 May 2005 11:59:35 EDT Re: Nice Speeds http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13516672 Trollhawk : I think you made the best point so far, fiberguy. It says right in the top paragraph, "...and will be appealing for companies looking for less expensive alternatives to running fiber straight to the home."

It's all about the money, people. Regardless of what technology is superior, it's all about ROI(return on investment), and each company will do what it believes will be most profitable within their own time frames.

I'm not bashing fiber, but would you rather wait 7+ years on 6Mbps broadband to get a 100Mbps fiber connection, or would you rather have 25Mbps xDSL within 2-3 years, and upgrade that to fiber in another 5+ years? And yes, I know Verizon is already deploying fiber, but how long will it take them reach 18 million households? That's the estimate another telco is saying they'll be able to reach with xDSL by 2007.

Let's not forget that xDSL is a technology, not a physical carrier like copper or fiber. Telcos don't have to run a new transmission medium to your house to enable xDSL. Only the endpoint equipment needs updating, perhaps even just a firmware update in some cases. That makes it much easier to bump up speeds until fiber can be run all the way to the prem.

Regarding T1's etc., VDSL will even replace those where it makes economical sense. Just like Tx's, VDSL can be run on multiple pairs. For those who only think in terms of price, speed is not the only determinant. Tx's cost more for their quality of service, ie- less downtime, quicker time to fix. VDSL will also be priced accordingly- more for Tx replacements, less for consumer VDSL.

Lastly, telcos employing VDSL are not doing it in lieu of running fiber. They are actually doing it while concurrently running fiber. For example, SBC's project lightspeed is an initiative to get fiber run to within ~5kft of each home, so that they can offer more people faster xDSL, in less time than it would take to run fiber to same amount of homes. The next logical step(assuming we don't all go wireless) would be to replace the "last mile" copper to the home with fiber.

So to sum up, I don't think VDSL is an alternative to fiber in the long run, but it is a very good "next step" before fiber reaches the majority of households.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13516672 Sat, 28 May 2005 05:22:55 EDT Re: Nice Speeds http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13514506 Rfsjr2 :

said by fiberguy

:

People want it all right now but when the providers says to the consumer "open your pocket book" what do you say?

I say "Great! Where do I sign?" ;)

I find consumers with real options to be a bit of a whiny lot.
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*Frank* EL SRS. DW4000. G4R 970_.42. W2K Pro SP4. DAK421_P15_C1. Wired LAN, 3 clients.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13514506 Fri, 27 May 2005 22:03:51 EDT Re: Nice Speeds http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13514388 nixen : VDSL2 relies on bonding loops. That means, for each speed multiple, instead of one loop/port, you need multiple. Fibre can essentially be dialed up without chewing up more ports.

-tom
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"Some people have morals, standards and ideals about quality, but I'm an American: I couldn't care less." --Tony Pierce (paraphrased)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13514388 Fri, 27 May 2005 21:48:11 EDT Re: Nice Speeds http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13513789 BosstonesOwn : Honestly look at the telco's and tell me that is what they are trying to do !

They are trying to hang on to an out dated system. They need to get on the bandwagon like VZ and use their collective power to lower costs on equipment. Why rebuild 4 times to get what could be done today ?

Roll out like VZ is and after 12 months the service in the area breaks even. If half sign up then 24 months. BFD the system will be in place for at least 10 years maybe more seeing as there is no known transport as fast as fiber at the moment and much of the work being done is to make fiber faster.

We have hit a technology saturation point and until some one discovers a major break threw in quantum physics there won't be much more to do. Bear in mind that copper has lasted over 100 years. If Fiber makes it 30 years they will see the same profits as copper did over that 100 years.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13513789 Fri, 27 May 2005 20:26:16 EDT Re: Nice Speeds http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13513211 bogey780 : ...and what if they need terrabit speed? With current usage VDSL2 could handle anything people need.

You are arguing as if VDSL is the end technology. It's not. Not SBC, BellSouth or any Telco is arguing it is. They're arguing that it's the best way to get people the speeds they want and need quickly and without bancrupting the company.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13513211 Fri, 27 May 2005 19:07:12 EDT Re: Nice Speeds http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13512748 BosstonesOwn :

said by bogey780

:

At 100Mb/s there's gonna have to be a huge demand.

how so ? what if demand for 200 mbit becomes the norm ? 8 pairs to the home now ? at what point does the cabling become to cumbersome and stiff ? How many strands can you fit in one of the pole taps ? You gonna fit 800 strands for 100 people ? or What happens if they need gig e speeds ? 4000 strands for the single 100 person block ? At what point does it get to the saturation point.

Fiber has none of those issues.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13512748 Fri, 27 May 2005 18:06:05 EDT Re: Nice Speeds http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13512721 BosstonesOwn :

said by Nik1108

:

Because running copper is cheaper as it doesn't have to be 6ft deep in the ground like fiber.

Nope , Next

Copper and fiber don't need to be trenched fios is lashing their fiber to copper that is in place at the moment and/or running it the same as copper.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13512721 Fri, 27 May 2005 18:02:30 EDT Re: Nice Speeds http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13512597 vagabond :

said by fiberguy

:

People want it all right now but when the providers says to the consumer "open your pocket book" what do you say?

I thought so.

SO TRUE, people bitch about paying $26.99 for 256/256 DSL. LOL

Anyways I wonder if Qwest will look into this, they have regular VDSL in parts of Omaha, Phoenix and Denver. It would probably cost alot to change all the existing USAMS though. The reason that VDSL has not expanded at all in Qwest's territory is because it's not profitable enough.
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qwesttalk dot com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13512597 Fri, 27 May 2005 17:47:13 EDT Re: Nice Speeds http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13512306 maartena :

said by webnetwiz

:

Because fiber can do gig speeds in the future, and one copper pair won't.

Not only that. A single fibre optic cable will be able to deliver 200 HDTV channels, 4 phone lines for the house, 1 Gbps Internet, Dedicated "small-band" connections to your alarm company and other services.... all through one cable.

Fiber technology also allows for much easier splitting of services on said cable, where your cable company leases part of it for TV and your ISP uses another part of it for broadband, if you choose to use different companies.

I don't foresee that possibility with copper wires. At leaast, it will be limited a lot more then fiberoptics.
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And i'm right. I'm always right, but this time I'm a little more right then I usually am.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13512306 Fri, 27 May 2005 17:07:25 EDT Re: Nice Speeds http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13512189 bogey780 : At 100Mb/s there's gonna have to be a huge demand.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13512189 Fri, 27 May 2005 16:50:36 EDT Re: Nice Speeds http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13512065 RadioDoc : "There are so many issues with copper in the buildings"

So you are running fiber to the phones too?

VDSL2 is a complement to fiber, and eventually that part of the local "loop" can even be replaced with fiber without starting over. This technology leverages existing infrastructure to deliver the goods now, not 25 years from now.

Verizon went straight to fiber mostly because they had to. Their outside copper plant is quickly dissolving from decades of mismanagement and deferred maintenance.

Try again.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13512065 Fri, 27 May 2005 16:34:23 EDT Re: Nice Speeds http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13511955 Nik1108 : Because running copper is cheaper as it doesn't have to be 6ft deep in the ground like fiber.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13511955 Fri, 27 May 2005 16:19:34 EDT Re: Nice Speeds http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13511883 quetwo :

said by webnetwiz

:

Because fiber can do gig speeds in the future, and one copper pair won't.

This technology requires at least two pairs -- depending on the distance from the CO. This would at least double the number of wires required to run DSL to the modem.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13511883 Fri, 27 May 2005 16:09:50 EDT Re: Nice Speeds http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13511691 BosstonesOwn : What happens when those pair demands are so big that they have to run another copper cable down the road to keep up with demand ? Ahh yeah run another copper cable.

Nahh run fiber now upgrade the equipment at both ends and be done with it for awhile.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13511691 Fri, 27 May 2005 15:44:05 EDT Re: Nice Speeds http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13511060 EnasYorl :

said by Gunslinger03

:

Wow. 100Mbps symmetrical over VDSL2...that is amazing. Why again is fiber being rolled out?

BECAUSE, you can do a entire Video Lineup over FIBER today!

Verizon is going after CATV's video customers. Hight Speed Data is a bonus.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13511060 Fri, 27 May 2005 14:29:48 EDT Re: Nice Speeds http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13510846 webnetwiz : Again, someone thinks reactively rather than proactively. There are so many issues with copper in the buildings, like interference, signal attenuation, etc... The only issue swith fiber is that it has to be installed delicately, that's it. Once you've installed it, tested it, you're done! There's no need for filters, POTS splitters and extra lines to spearate the signal. Fiber is just cleaner.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13510846 Fri, 27 May 2005 14:02:42 EDT Re: Nice Speeds http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13510796 vpoko :

said by bogey780

:

Then provision another twisted pair. Voila.

How is this a better alternative to fiber? Eventually you're going to run out of pairs and need to trench new cable anyway. What about the higher maintenance costs of aging copper v. fiber? Just because something can be done doesn't mean it is the best option.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13510796 Fri, 27 May 2005 13:55:27 EDT Re: Nice Speeds http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13510713 bogey780 : '100mbps will be used up rather quickly when you want to stream multipe HD channels into your home, use VoIP telephony, and when your kitchen appliances are all IP-aware.'

Then provision another twisted pair. Voila.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13510713 Fri, 27 May 2005 13:46:46 EDT Re: Nice Speeds http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13510648 vpoko : You make good points, but they're not related to the thread you're replying to.

The question wasn't "Why VDSL2 when we can have fiber?", the question was "Why fiber when we can have VDSL2?"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13510648 Fri, 27 May 2005 13:40:33 EDT Re: Nice Speeds http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13510628 webnetwiz : You nailed it my friend! A company like Verizon can't think about rolling out VDSL2 and enjoy the technology for 5 years and then find that it no longer meets the demands. If you're a huge telecom company, you have to think ahead and be pro-active rather than re-active! Verizon is going to deploy fiber and be done with infrastructure for the next decade at least, and not worry about providing any type of HSI or IPTV or whatever, they're DONE! While SBC and Bellsouth will cringe along with ADSL2+, then maybe VDSL2, and keep spending money on aging copper and upgrades to DSLAMs that aggregate your copper pairs to a fiber link to their backbones. Fiber to the home was a right solution. Yes, it's more money spent now, but it's the return on your money not having to upgrade every few years. Someone at Verizon was thinking about the future, and not just looking good to the Wall Street or shareholders. The fact that they're rolling out FTTH in rich neighborhoods that can afford it, that's a whole different topic.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13510628 Fri, 27 May 2005 13:38:21 EDT Re: Nice Speeds http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13510551 fiberguy : People want it all right now but when the providers says to the consumer "open your pocket book" what do you say?

I thought so.

VDSL2 is a great option for the company in the current landscape of the industry. People say "why VDSL2 if fiber can do gig speeds?" If they could do gig speeds, then why not do it now? Why wait? People, it COSTS MONEY to put these speeds through the pipes. What, do you want to over power that little thing called the backbone?

People want everything! Hey, BROADBAND IS STILL NEW! Remember? What did you ahve 5 years ago? For many, it was still dial up! Let's get real.

Ask yourself this.. if you had the ability to run SBC or Charter, or Verizon even, would you do a large fiber deployment now? If it were me? NO! I would find th cheapest way to deploy the fastest speeds possible in the least amount of time. There is no real way to see into the bb future. Billions people! Billions of dollars to lay fiber. Everyone runs it, now what? Now every company has debt. To pay that debt off, they need paying customers; customers who will pay the price for a fiber line. From what I can tell in these forums, not many here would be willing to pay the REAL price of providing brandband services.

Ever wonder why there is a bundled price for bb service? It's because multiple product hits help subsidize the cost of actually deploying the service. Also, a company has to keep a customer an average of 18 months JUST TO BREAK EVEN!

You guys are asking too much for fiber right now. It's just too much too soon. In time, people will see fiber, but I don't think you will see it as a norm pipeline widespread for at least 25 years or so.

Now, you say fiber can do gig speeds and copper pair won't.. says you? We never thought that copper pair would do more than 28.8... even 56k.. when DSL rolled out, we thought that 1.5 and 15,000 feet would be the limit of that technolody. Proved many people wrong eh?

Anyone here that says "can't" or "won't" is a fool themselves. You don't know what technology could bring.

In all honesty, I think many people here live in a dream world and not reality.

One question to aks you all.. if 100mb came out, what are you willing to pay for it? and what would you expect for that money? My guess is that most people would hope that it was $20 a month and had an uptime of 99.9% (which far exceeds even business class service)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13510551 Fri, 27 May 2005 13:29:57 EDT Re: Nice Speeds http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13510415 vpoko : 100mbps will be used up rather quickly when you want to stream multipe HD channels into your home, use VoIP telephony, and when your kitchen appliances are all IP-aware.

Fiber with DWDM, on the other hand, can eventually be upped to hundreds of gigabits or even terrabits per second without replacing the fiber.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13510415 Fri, 27 May 2005 13:15:15 EDT Re: Nice Speeds http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13510395 webnetwiz : Because fiber can do gig speeds in the future, and one copper pair won't.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13510395 Fri, 27 May 2005 13:13:23 EDT Nice Speeds http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13510286 Gunslinger03 : Wow. 100Mbps symmetrical over VDSL2...that is amazing. Why again is fiber being rolled out?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13510286 Fri, 27 May 2005 13:01:22 EDT