Re: Block P2P or be Sued in Wireless Service Providers http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r13442052 en Sun, 29 Nov 2009 01:43:39 EDT Sun, 29 Nov 2009 01:43:39 EDT Re: Block P2P or be Sued http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13479426 John Galt :
said by superdog See Profile:

Maybe I am just using this as an excuse to punish bandwidth hogs?. While I do really have a problem with theft, I guess since I can't prove it, I should probably shut up and go away?.
I think that if you control the bandwidth hogs, you will "catch" most of the "illegal evil-doers"...!

;)
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A is A]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13479426 Mon, 23 May 2005 23:04:58 EDT Re: Block P2P or be Sued http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13479410 superdog :
said by cmaenginsb See Profile:

Since P2P traffic by itself is completely legal, it is fine to assume that this person is downloading linux or other open source software etc.

As to informing RIAA/law enforcement, if you found one of your members exchanging kiddie porn you probably wouldn't hesitate to inform LE, so why have a double standard? Also note I never said RIAA, it's not my job to work with a private entity who has no stake in my network. Unless supeoned I would only inform LE and the customer.
I suppose You are correct?. I didn't mean to ruffle Your feathers either(Maybe I didn't?:uhh: ). I also don't care to see what my customers are doing, I guess my main problem is the bandwidth hogs that do this?. Maybe I am just using this as an excuse to punish bandwidth hogs?. While I do really have a problem with theft, I guess since I can't prove it, I should probably shut up and go away?.
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»www.wavecrazy.net Join WISPA today! »www.wispa.org/]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13479410 Mon, 23 May 2005 23:03:12 EDT Re: Block P2P or be Sued http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13479177 cmaenginsb : Tim, it's splitting fine hairs here but as long as I do not actually look at the traffic it doesn't matter what I suspect it is, I can't prove it so I'm not going to do anything about it.

Since P2P traffic by itself is completely legal, it is fine to assume that this person is downloading linux or other open source software etc. Even looking at the packets with a typical protocol analyizer won't tell you the real payload so you still can't prove anything.

As to informing RIAA/law enforcement, if you found one of your members exchanging kiddie porn you probably wouldn't hesitate to inform LE, so why have a double standard? Also note I never said RIAA, it's not my job to work with a private entity who has no stake in my network. Unless supeoned I would only inform LE and the customer.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13479177 Mon, 23 May 2005 22:37:21 EDT Re: Block P2P or be Sued http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13478690 superdog :
said by cmaenginsb See Profile:

Since most ISPs do not actively monitor their customers traffic since that would be considered an invasion of privacy how can we tell if the traffic is illegal in nature. If for some reason you discover the traffic is illegal then you should inform the authorities who can take action.
Thats an interesting thought, but when You see an MRTG graph light up on a flat level at 384k with both up and down on a hardly used pipe, You KNOW what that is without even thinking about it. I don't call anyone but the customer if it continues, I mean, Who would You call?, The RIAA?. I would say that is not very customer friendly?:uhh:
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»www.wavecrazy.net Join WISPA today! »www.wispa.org/]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13478690 Mon, 23 May 2005 21:42:27 EDT Re: Block P2P or be Sued http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13475961 cmaenginsb : The key words in the quote are There have been rumblings that we could be sued for not blocking traffic we know to be illegal in nature.

Since most ISPs do not actively monitor their customers traffic since that would be considered an invasion of privacy how can we tell if the traffic is illegal in nature. If for some reason you discover the traffic is illegal then you should inform the authorities who can take action.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13475961 Mon, 23 May 2005 16:02:13 EDT Re: Block P2P or be Sued http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13473751 anon : Most people use torrent now anyway, which randomizes ports. Get the non-tracker variety, and the RIAA has to do a lot of digging to find out who you are.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13473751 Mon, 23 May 2005 10:46:02 EDT Re: Block P2P or be Sued http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13447064 shamanfk : as far as I know--there is no router which can differentiate illegal P2P from legal P2P.

Now, once given notice by the RIAA , for purely financial reasons,,blocking the customers port--or ""all together may be the only viable solution to stay out of the fray.

That said, not all P2P can be blocked,,as not all protocols are available for all routers.
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Success is getting what you want; Happiness is wanting what you get.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13447064 Thu, 19 May 2005 15:56:19 EDT Re: Block P2P or be Sued http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13446387 wispman : People can and will sue for anything and everything. No reason at all, they just do.

When a robber sues a home owner and wins because the robber got cut on glass (he broke) while robbing a guys house, it is just wrong. And it happens.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13446387 Thu, 19 May 2005 14:23:31 EDT Re: Block P2P or be Sued http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13445602 jdmarti1 : We aren't planning on blocking a thing. P2P networks are designed to share files, they are not intended to be illegal. Many software companies distribute updates through this channel. It is also a boon for the GNU crowd. I cannot control what my users do - can I??? That would be like suing a car dealer for selling a car that was used in vehicular homicide.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13445602 Thu, 19 May 2005 12:40:51 EDT Re: Block P2P or be Sued http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13443104 sporkme :
said by someone:

While no ISP's have been sued Yet, There have been rumblings that we could be sued for not blocking traffic we know to be illegal in nature. Who knows WHAT the RIAA will do next?
said by robbin See Profile:

So my question is how many block certain ports from their clients specifically because someone on their network "may" be doing something illegal? Is there any reason to believe that as a WISP we should censor our clients in their usage of the internet?
The legal aspects are not at all WISP-specific, so allow me to blather. :)

Once upon a time there was this thing called Usenet where people got all their warez, porn, and likely illegal porn (kiddie porn, bestiality, snuff). Since it was a distributed system, no one entity was in control of what was there. ISPs, wanting to attract customers with some kind of "free" content, ran Usenet servers. Not only was it difficult to try and decide which groups to block, it was actually technically impossible. How does a sysadmin know whether someone is posting bestiality pictures to a group called "rec.chess.discuss"? Does the ISP hire a roomful of people to try and look at each and every one of the millions of files distributed every day? No. Back then many ISPs took a stand and simply put warnings in their TOS that there may be offensive/illegal material there and in all sorts of other places on the internet and that it was the CUSTOMER's responsibility to surf wisely.

There were some overzealous prosecutors (there was a big case in Buffalo, NY) that tried to get the anti-smut vote by busting ISPs and taking their Usenet servers away, but this accomplished little. The Usenet server was not much more than a giant cache. Articles came in, and aged out after a preset number of days. You know which ISPs got in the most trouble? The ones that tried to filter certain groups. They were worried and thought they'd try to filter the unfilterable. By doing so, they assumed responsibility for what got on that server, and that really bit them in the ass.

Now, today both WISPs and cable have "that upload problem" where P2P traffic is exactly what you don't need to maintain consistent service for all of your customers. I say that if you want to be safe and filter anything, do it for TECHNICAL reasons, not content reasons. Spell this out in your TOS. If you lose a customer because they can't be a P2P host, so be it. If someone is hosting a file via P2P and you've got 60 people hitting that and generating a ton of little packets that kill your performance for everyone, use that as a reason to block.

And take the DMCA takedown notices with a grain of salt. They are written to intimidate the ISP and the customer. You are a carrier; until someone walks in with a subpoena, all bets are off.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13443104 Thu, 19 May 2005 01:43:39 EDT Re: Block P2P or be Sued http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13442052 superdog : Those were my words:) . We do not block ports as of today. Does this mean we wouldn't?, absolutely not. Not only is P2P traffic illegal in most cases, we all know what it does to bandwidth. The RIAA is getting very desperate, trying to find ways to stop the hemorrhage of $$$ lost by P2P apps. Do I want to be the example for the rest of You?, NO WAY!. It is only a matter of time before one of us becomes the scapegoat, and who better to sue and hang out to dry than a small provider like most of us that do not have mega $$$ legal budgets to fight back. As I mentioned in a previous post, If I am out on a site survey and the kids are following me around asking how fast they can download music and movies, I don't ever seem to get a link?:uhh: . It also says this in my TOS, so all of my customers are forewarned. I have pulled radios because of excessive P2P traffic. Let Comcast and Verizon have them.:D
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»www.wavecrazy.net Join WISPA today! »www.wispa.org/]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13442052 Wed, 18 May 2005 22:41:06 EDT Block P2P or be Sued http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13441852 robbin : I hadn't heard about this, so I thought this was a good place to discuss the issue.

In this thread, it was asked "I started to have some problems with eMule a few weeks ago, I thought it's just eMule's problem, but now after reading this post on the eMule official forum, I think Keyon is blocking eMule's traffic.

Response as follows:

"They probably are, as 95% of Emules traffic is illegal file trading and copyright infringements. It has nothing to do with blocking "power users", but everything to do with lawsuits and the RIAA. While I have no stand on what is "right or wrong" as far as the moral standpoint is concerned, I do understand why a lot of providers are blocking these ports and services, as we simply can NOT afford to defend our subscribers if we are served with papers."

And "While no ISP's have been sued Yet, There have been rumblings that we could be sued for not blocking traffic we know to be illegal in nature. Who knows WHAT the RIAA will do next?."

So my question is how many block certain ports from their clients specifically because someone on their network "may" be doing something illegal? Is there any reason to believe that as a WISP we should censor our clients in their usage of the internet?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13441852 Wed, 18 May 2005 22:19:45 EDT