Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r13365021 en Thu, 26 Nov 2009 02:11:41 EDT Thu, 26 Nov 2009 02:11:41 EDT Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13374844 Vchat20 : well, all i know is that in our area, when our bill gets to the past due point and they "shut off" our phone, we still have a dial tone for about a week and then it gets completely shut off.

in regards to my original reply, i didn't say ALL lines HAVE to have a dial tone, i said they are supposed to have them last i heard. regardless, i think that all POTS lines should have dial tones regardless of whether its activated or not simply for 911 usage.
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Alec Trebek: Well, all you had to do was write down a number. And you wrote... Threeve. A combination of three and five. Simply stunning. And you wagered... Texas with a dollar sign in front of it. I'm speechless.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13374844 Tue, 10 May 2005 13:57:16 EDT Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13373983 chzdhippt : In regards to all POTS lines having dialtone, this is incorrect. The requirement is that all lines with dialtone be able to call 911, and normally, companies will also connect misdials to a sales dept (to encourage sales). Non-activated lines do not necessarily have dialtone.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13373983 Tue, 10 May 2005 11:57:28 EDT Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13372803 Murray3 :
said by Vchat20 See Profile:

to improve upon your idea, last i heard, POTS lines are supposed to constantly have a dial tone regardless of whether service is activated on it or not. difference is, if not activated, only basic 911 access and (sometimes) calls to the phone company's customer support/etc. numbers go through.
You are correct. At least it has worked this way in my experience.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13372803 Tue, 10 May 2005 08:45:11 EDT Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13370045 pnh102 :
said by Jason Levine See Profile:

A) raise VoIP as an alternative in people's minds should 911 service not be a priority and
True, but you don't even have to mention VoIP (or cellular) alternatives to 911. You could probably see James Earl Jones say something like "Insist on genuine Verizon telephone service for your family's peace of mind" or something like that.
said by Jason Levine See Profile:

B) make VoIP seem less desirable to those who value 911 service (thus turning those customers away from the POTS companies' possible future VoIP products).
It wouldn't be the first time a company "competed against itself" so I don't think this would be a big deal. If an existing POTS customer switched to a telegraph company's VoIP service or if the POTS customer retained traditional telegraph service, the phone company would still be making money.
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Hey Fast Eddie... you're next!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13370045 Mon, 09 May 2005 21:32:00 EDT Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13369988 pnh102 :
said by lawrence171 See Profile:

Ugh... what right does that woman have to make another suffer endlessly because of her own stupidity/incompetence?
As long as the law allows for such stupid lawsuits to proceed, they will never end. I think if we change the presumption of guilt that goes with civil lawsuits (e.g, the idiot would have to prove Vonage screwed up as opposed to Vonage having to prove that it didn't screw up) we would see a significant drop in the amount of money paid out in damages.
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Hey Fast Eddie... you're next!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13369988 Mon, 09 May 2005 21:25:47 EDT Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13369929 pnh102 : There were a couple of friends of mine who just had their first child who were in the same position. They had been considering VoIP until I mentioned to them the 911 issue. Its just not worth the risk and no amount of cost savings will change that.

I am sure though that if they actually saw the big red labels or even the fine print indicating that 911 didn't work as we all expect it to that they would have reconsidered. I feel like I only pushed up the inevitable.
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Hey Fast Eddie... you're next!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13369929 Mon, 09 May 2005 21:17:58 EDT Why VoIP has no TRUE 911... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13367594 phattieg : The reason there is no true 911 is because not all the Telephone companies feel they should help a service that is not regulated and taxed as they are. It's a battle for "WHO CAN WE GET MONEY FROM NOW"... You see, in order for 911 to work, it REQUIRES the phone network to terminate to a CAMA trunk in your local CO (Central Office). Most CO's won't let the VoIP provider put a Gateway switch in your local CO, so they have to do the next best thing, terminate the call to the PSAP, who then finds the correct CAMA trunk to connect the call thru. Now cell phones, thats a different story. Since they are regulated, they have to by law offer 911. They also, by law, have to allow a competitor access to their CAMA trunks in each CO to make 911 work. I think if the Phone company (pigs) would play fair, people wouldn't HAVE to lose lives to VoIP service.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13367594 Mon, 09 May 2005 16:13:37 EDT Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13367259 pnh102 :
said by PhoenixDown See Profile:

The bottom line is that 911 needs to be reliable regardless of whether its over VOIP or a cell phone.
It does, but it's not. While we may not have any control over this, we need to understand that when it comes to the safety of our families, we need to research and make the right choice for the purposes of dialing 911 when its needed.
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Hey Fast Eddie... you're next!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13367259 Mon, 09 May 2005 15:25:29 EDT Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13366951 Pz_ : You know, I've thought for a long time we should have a breeding license. On paper it looks great. If you are a competent adult with a safe and nurturing environment for a child, then you are allowed to create one.

Then the governement steps in and starts corrupting everything. Before you know, we have Half-Life 2 on our hands. Only we don't get a Gordon Freeman. :(]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13366951 Mon, 09 May 2005 14:38:33 EDT Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13366898 PhoenixDown : The bottom line is that 911 needs to be reliable regardless of whether its over VOIP or a cell phone. We pay alot of money for 911 related initiatives that we shouldn't have to pay for in the first place - where is the outrage about that?
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www.pulsetoday.com -- marketing forums!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13366898 Mon, 09 May 2005 14:32:36 EDT Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13366753 calvoiper : ...or in California, you would be routed to the state highway patrol, who will sometimes let you wait in a queue and then try to figure out which PSAP you should really be connected to....

calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13366753 Mon, 09 May 2005 14:09:44 EDT Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13366626 Vchat20 : to improve upon your idea, last i heard, POTS lines are supposed to constantly have a dial tone regardless of whether service is activated on it or not. difference is, if not activated, only basic 911 access and (sometimes) calls to the phone company's customer support/etc. numbers go through.
--
Alec Trebek: Well, all you had to do was write down a number. And you wrote... Threeve. A combination of three and five. Simply stunning. And you wagered... Texas with a dollar sign in front of it. I'm speechless.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13366626 Mon, 09 May 2005 13:49:47 EDT Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13366422 Jason Levine :
said by pnh102 See Profile:

I am surprised that POTS providers have not capitalized on this problem by advertising that their product works perfectly with 911.
The POTS companies probably either don't see VoIP as a threat just yet or want to keep their options open should they decide to enter the market. If they were to proclaim "VoIP is dangerous and doesn't support 911 properly" they would:

A) raise VoIP as an alternative in people's minds should 911 service not be a priority and

B) make VoIP seem less desirable to those who value 911 service (thus turning those customers away from the POTS companies' possible future VoIP products).
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-Jason Levine
http://www.jasons-toolbox.com/
http://www.PCQandA.com/
http://www.urateit.com/]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13366422 Mon, 09 May 2005 13:21:43 EDT Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13366308 LoftyDan : As much as I like to point that fact out to people (as a reason to not dispose of old cell phones), I've never actually gotten through with 911 on a cell phone during the day time. First time, I let the phone redial for over 5 minutes, never to get through, only then thinking to call 411 and ask for the CHP. Second time, I did so much quicker... I think any VoIP service, as well as cell phones, should have the emergency number stored as a preset.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13366308 Mon, 09 May 2005 13:03:05 EDT Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13366291 lawrence171 : Ugh... what right does that woman have to make another suffer endlessly because of her own stupidity/incompetence?

The court makes decision base on what's best for society and/or the individuals involved. Can you honestly tell me that such a mother will give birth to healthy babies?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13366291 Mon, 09 May 2005 13:01:31 EDT Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13366236 Murray3 :
said by Alphabyte See Profile:

You don't even need a land line for proper 911. An cell phone that turns on is required to let calls go throught to 911 regardless if it's activated or not.
That's true. For some of us though, we don't get good cell phone coverage from our homes, though we're able to have a reliable POTS line.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13366236 Mon, 09 May 2005 12:53:39 EDT Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13366154 cbs228 : Cellular 911 is almost as bad as Vonage 911. The PSAP operators do not get any location data, and if you are near the county border your call could be routed to the wrong PSAP entirely.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13366154 Mon, 09 May 2005 12:43:15 EDT Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365971 sektor1952 : You forgot about the e-mails vonage sends you when you first sign up for the service to remind you to setup 911 service.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365971 Mon, 09 May 2005 12:16:01 EDT Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365920 pnh102 :
said by PhoenixDown See Profile:

I get see the VOIP advertisements all the time and if you didn't know better, you would almost swear thats the service is being provided over POTS in some cases and I never saw any of them mention that 911 might be an 'issue'. It is very misleading.
You're right about this. All of these advertisements should make it clear that 911 service doesn't work like POTS-based 911. But its still the parents' responsibility to find out these things when they consider making the switch from POTS to VoIP.

I am surprised that POTS providers have not capitalized on this problem by advertising that their product works perfectly with 911.
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Hey Fast Eddie... you're next!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365920 Mon, 09 May 2005 12:09:06 EDT Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365916 Storm72 :
said by pnh102 See Profile:

Its idiots like these who will sue the US tech industry out of the country.

I know that once I have kids, the first thing I will do is get the cheapest POTS-based line (even as much as I hate the telegraph companies) just for proper 911 access should it be needed.
Don't forget the money-grubbing lawyers who are all too happy to help idiots like this continue to clog the courts with countless numbers of frivolous lawsuits.

As a parent, I think you're dead-on about having a POTS line as a backup. Since I have a security system I do have a POTS line, but my wife and I pretty much use our mobiles for making and receiving calls. We're also entertaining the possibility of going with VoIP, but no matter what we end up doing, we're still going to hang on to our scaled-down POTS line for the foreseeable future.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365916 Mon, 09 May 2005 12:07:58 EDT Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365749 Jason Levine : I agree. One of my neighbors asked me about getting "Digital Phone" service from Time Warner. It's being advertised here like crazy and she was considering it. I told her that I'd recommend against it due to various VoIP/TW-Digital Phone issues (power failure = loss of phone service, cable outage = loss of phone service, 911 service which isn't as good as POTS).

A year ago this July, my son (then 11 months old) spiked a 103+ fever and had a grand mal seizure. He stopped responding and even stopped breathing. We panicked (obviously as any parent would if their kid stopped breathing -- we actually thought he was dead at one point) but had enough presence of mind to call 911. The operator got an ambulance through to us right away.

Apparently, the magic words were "infant" and "stopped breathing" because five minutes later there was an ambulance in front of our house and emergency personnel giving my son oxygen. (He had started breathing on his own before they arrived.) As a side note, never have his screams of panic sounded so sweet as they meant that he was still alive.

Turns out that he had Coxsackie virus and the spiking fever made him have a febrile convulsion. It also turns out that febrile convulsions are rarely harmful and my son was ok in the end. (Still, try telling a parent whose baby stops responding and then starts twitching and turning blue that their baby will be ok.)

Still, at the time it seemed like his life was at stake and, having had that experience, I wouldn't go with VoIP for the 911 issue alone. 911 is something that should just work. It should need to be configured by the end user. The advertisements for "digital phone service" are very misleading. VoIP is being touted as nothing more than an inexpensive version of a normal phone line when in fact it's a completely different beast with it's own quirks.
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-Jason Levine
http://www.jasons-toolbox.com/
http://www.PCQandA.com/
http://www.urateit.com/]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365749 Mon, 09 May 2005 11:41:47 EDT Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365534 BosstonesOwn : I am surprised that they have not upgraded the mapping systems yet. Our area already has it set up and running. Maybe just my area/market is phase 2 set but i know right now optimization of the market here is nearly complete for 2 providers.

I also do a gree landline is the safest.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365534 Mon, 09 May 2005 11:15:00 EDT Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365369 PhoenixDown : Alot of parents aren't as tech savy as those of us here on DSLR. I get see the VOIP advertisements all the time and if you didn't know better, you would almost swear thats the service is being provided over POTS in some cases and I never saw any of them mention that 911 might be an 'issue'. It is very misleading.
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www.pulsetoday.com -- marketing forums!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365369 Mon, 09 May 2005 10:48:50 EDT Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365237 dispatcher21 : Only a different call center if 911 and non emergecny are handled by different centers. I work for a dispatch center that handles all calls, emergency and non emergency. So in this case, we would get it no matter what. Granted, if the non emergency line and 911 rings at the same time, the 911 gets priority, but the dispatcher should still answer the non emergency line to make sure they indeed dont have an emergency after the 911 call is done with or at least stablized. And I wouldnt trust a cell phone for 911. Depending on where you are, and other factors, you could reach a PSAP that is not even close to where you are. Not only that but depending on the cell providers network conditions or tower problems, sometimes we cant understand you because of the call dropping or severe static, and if you cant tell us where you are, we cant help you. Now yes phase 2 wireless with lat/long is out there but very few PSAP's have been upgraded to use this. Not only do we need a phase 2 compliant phone system, but also a phase 2 CAD system and a mapping program, all of this is big bucks. We use Positron Power 911 for 5 consoles and that was over $150,000.00. The CAD cost over $250,000.00 (for initial cost, I believe upgrade to phase 2 was a lot cheaper) and mapping was over $35,000.00. As you can see, not many agencies will have the money to upgrade. Add to this the fact that cell companies are not even close to having even 80% success rate with phase 2 info and cell phones start to look as bad as VoIP. The safest bet is a landline period.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365237 Mon, 09 May 2005 10:29:20 EDT Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365022 BosstonesOwn :
said by ColdFiltered See Profile:

Does anyone remember the court decision a few months back against a drug-addict women? The court ordered her to not have anymore children as the many she already had were in foster-care because she, obviously, couldn't take care of them.

I'd have gutted her as my 'court' decision. We have to have a license to drive and fish, but not one to breed.
Don't forget to hunt, even to buy a gun which is in the constitution as a right.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365022 Mon, 09 May 2005 09:54:41 EDT Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365021 Alphabyte : You don't even need a land line for proper 911. An cell phone that turns on is required to let calls go throught to 911 regardless if it's activated or not.
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Proud President of Riverbend Enterprises, LLC.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365021 Mon, 09 May 2005 09:54:39 EDT Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365013 BosstonesOwn :
said by Jim Gurd See Profile:

I would never be without a POTS line until VoIP can provide me with the same level of service for 911.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it true that VoIP 911 calls go to a different call center and are not E-911 capable (i.e. they don't show your phone number and address automatically if you can't talk)?

Right now I don't trust VoIP. I can get (reasonably) cheap POTS service from Talk America.
No and Yes. Different call centers yes , e-911 incompatible no (at least in most cases)

VoIP providers maintain a database of your info which when the server that holds your number to ip translation is checked also checks if it is a 911 call if so all your billing info is sent to the call center which fills in their screen like caller id. Which is then transferred to the local emergency service to you.

E-911 does the same with cell phones, except now with cell phones they triangulate off many towers around you to get the spot where you are. The more antenna's respond the closer they can come to finding you.

VoIP however does not have that ability. What is done is a trace to the router/gateway ahead of you and ping plotted to make sure it's not a bad call and as that is being done your VoIP provider sends them your billing info which is assumed to be your street info.

Vonage however has the system in place but you must double check to make sure it's right and to set it up properly since Vonage doesn't know your specifics. This is why there is 80 pages on Vonage web site with the big red label.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365013 Mon, 09 May 2005 09:52:26 EDT Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365011 ColdFiltered : Does anyone remember the court decision a few months back against a drug-addict women? The court ordered her to not have anymore children as the many she already had were in foster-care because she, obviously, couldn't take care of them.

I'd have gutted her as my 'court' decision. We have to have a license to drive and fish, but not one to breed.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13365011 Mon, 09 May 2005 09:52:17 EDT Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13364953 Jim Gurd : I would never be without a POTS line until VoIP can provide me with the same level of service for 911.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it true that VoIP 911 calls go to a different call center and are not E-911 capable (i.e. they don't show your phone number and address automatically if you can't talk)?

Right now I don't trust VoIP. I can get (reasonably) cheap POTS service from Talk America.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13364953 Mon, 09 May 2005 09:42:29 EDT Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13364951 BosstonesOwn : I agree , people pass the responsibility to others in this country way to much. I foresee a lawsuit in which she will probably be paid very well, and vonage may be put into a hole for.

People wonder why so many companies are off shoring and doing all they can to cut costs. Lawsuits and stock holders are a major reason why it has to be done, they all want good returns and even better service.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13364951 Mon, 09 May 2005 09:41:55 EDT Re: Sterilize and Jail the Parents... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13364949 Murray3 :
said by pnh102 See Profile:

I know that once I have kids, the first thing I will do is get the cheapest POTS-based line (even as much as I hate the telegraph companies) just for proper 911 access should it be needed.
Exactly what I have done.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13364949 Mon, 09 May 2005 09:41:44 EDT Sterilize and Jail the Parents... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13364901 pnh102 : ... for not taking responsibility for ensuring real 911 access by using a POTS line. Vonage and other VoIP providers make it very clear that their 911 service is not the same as POTS-provided 911 service. The baby's death is partly the fault of the parents who didn't bother to fully research the potential problems with VoIP-based 911 service. You would think when you see a big red label on a web page explaining that 911 with VoIP has to be set up manually and that it isn't the same as POTS-based 911 service, one would think... hmmm.... is this the best thing for me?

Its idiots like these who will sue the US tech industry out of the country.

I know that once I have kids, the first thing I will do is get the cheapest POTS-based line (even as much as I hate the telegraph companies) just for proper 911 access should it be needed.
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Hey Fast Eddie... you're next!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13364901 Mon, 09 May 2005 09:29:32 EDT