Re: what a shocking surprise! in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r13053671 en Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:04:29 EDT Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:04:29 EDT Re: what a shocking surprise! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13057967 WhyADuck : Let me post a hypothetical here. Let's imagine a land where, a few decades past, there was no such thing as 911. Everybody had a sticker on their phone with the numbers of the local police and fire departments, and maybe the ambulance number also, attached to their phone (which, by the way, was technically an illegal foreign attachment but the phone company knew better than to make a stink about it).

The someone came up with the idea of a three digit emergency telephone number that could be used in any sort of emergency. And it was good, and it saved lives, and whenever it saved lives someone made sure it got plenty of coverage in the popular press (newspapers and magazines).

Then citizens in towns large and small started asking their mayors to get the local phone company to put in one of these wonderful emergency numbers. And in city after city, the mayor and the council members looked into it and found the equipment required, and the special trunks required, were quite costly. So they told the citizens,"we can install one of these systems but we will have to raise your taxes!" And the citizens said, "But we are already taxed for police and fire protection - use some of that money to fund the new system!"

But the police chief didn't want to take a cut in pay, and the fire chief didn't want to take a cut in pay, and none of the police or firefighters wanted to take cuts in pay, nor did they want to do without new police cruisers or fire trucks for a year or two.

Then the Man from the Telephone Company came by. And he said, "Mr. Mayor, I have a solution for you. You can have your shiny new 911 equipment and you will not have to raise taxes by a single dime." And the Mayor, who was running for re-election soon, said, "Please, Mr. Man from the Telephone Company, tell me how!"

And the Man from the Telephone Company said, "All you have to do is lease the equipment from us, and lease the special trunk lines from us. We will install it, we will maintain it, and we will repair it for a nominal fee if it breaks. And the beauty is, we will add the cost to the telephone bills of all your citizens. So, you can tell them that you got them a shiny new 911 system without any increase in their taxes, and you don't have to worry about any pesky state laws that limit how much you can tax the people."

But the Mayor said, "How do we know we are getting a good deal on this equipment? Are you charging us a fair price for it? Will it last many years, or become obsolete soon?"

And the Man from the Phone Company's face darkened and he said, "Why do you ask such questions? What do you care if you are getting a good deal or not? Your citizens will pay for it because they have no choice, unless they want to give up their telephones. We can be a powerful friend or a powerful enemy. Wouldn't you like to win re-election? Wouldn't you like to be our friend?"

And so the citizens got their 911 service, the city got some nice shiny equipment that was overpriced and obsolete sooner than anyone expected, and the extra charges remained on the phone bills and were increased from time to time, which meant the Man from the Phone Company lived happily ever after.

And interestingly enough, in this hypothetical land, let's imagine that after some length of time had passed, the phone company tried to convince everyone that in fact the equipment was theirs, the circuits were theirs, and that their profits took precedence over the safety of the citizens. Even though the people had paid many times the value of the equipment, and even though lives might be lost, the phone company absolutely refused to cooperate with new competitors who wanted to connect to the 911 trunks because after all, that equipment and those trunks were theirs.

No, that couldn't happen, could it? Nowhere would people be dumb enough to say that even though they had paid for the equipment and circuits many times over, sometimes at vastly inflated prices, the phone company should still have the right to exercise absolute control over who was able to connect to those circuits, right?

Well, maybe nowhere but America!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13057967 Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:23:29 EDT Re: what a shocking surprise! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13056983 calvoiper : If you think it's OK for a company to turn a basic service contract with a government unit into a way to exclude competition, then I understand why you support SBC here.

Otherwise, I think SBC is acting in inexcusable self interest. By your logic, they should prohibit their linemen from helping out auto accident victims because it might cause overtime or extra wear and tear on their trucks...

calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13056983 Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:31:31 EDT Re: what a shocking surprise! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13056826 Camelot One : First off, fowl wasn't a typo. (SBC too chicken to compete on a level field) Little play on words, not that it matters.

But no, I still don't see the problem. Using your example, I still say why does company A have any obligation what so ever to help company B steal their customers? They provide an ambulance service that works, and that is the end of their obligation to the consumer.

I'm not saying I agree with the way 911 was paid for, nor in who runs it. But the fact remains...SBC in this case is in control, and I see no reason for them to cut Vonage any breaks. If the FCC wants to step in and do something that is great. That is what they are for. But if I were a share holder in SBC, I'd be pissed at any moves to help the competition, and resolving the 911 issue for VoIP providers would be exactly that.

All that said, after multiple posts defending them...I'd like to point out that I hate SBC. I am a Vonage and CallVantage customer.
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AMD A64 3200+/ MSI K8N Neo/ 2x 512Mb Kingston HyperX PC4000/ WD 74Gb Raptor/ Gainward GF4 4600/ Gainward 5200PCI/ Antec 550 True Control/ Custom water cooler]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13056826 Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:15:01 EDT Re: what a shocking surprise! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13056578 calvoiper :
said by Camelot One See Profile:

Why is it SBC's responsibility? ... Why should they go out of their way to make sure people who DON'T use their service are taken care of? ...
Because they are in a position of control over the 9-1-1 system. The whole affair is that SBC uses that control to prevent other carriers from completing 9-1-1 calls unless they pay outrageous rates to SBC, based on tariffs that were set when there wasn't any competition.

In short: SBC's rates for 9-1-1 functions are outrageously high. SBC charges these rates to governments, to themselves, and to competitors.

The amounts SBC charges to itself are a wash. The amounts charged to others are extortionate profits.

It's as if a city awarded a contract to one ambulance firm to align the stoplights to facilitate ambulance runs. That firm, when it is a monopoly, decides to charge itself $800 per ambulance run to align the stoplights. When the second ambulance firm comes to town, the first tries to charge it $800 per run for the stoplight service. The first firm also refuses any effort to lower the cost or explore alternatives, saying instead that an "industry standards process" needs to review the issue.

Do you begin to understand the problem here? Do you begin to understand why the second firm would offer service without the stoplight alignment, but also warning their customers that when paying half the price, they don't get stoplight alignment?

said by Camelot One See Profile:

... Whats next, expecting them to provide free dial tone just in case a non-paying customer needs to make a call?
Uhh, that's actually already the law in several states. In those states, when a line is disconnected but not re-used, the LEC is obligated to provide "warm line" service that works only for 9-1-1.

calvoiper

PS--the expression is "cry foul", not "cry fowl", unless you're looking for chickens, ducks, and geese.
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13056578 Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:45:56 EDT Re: what a shocking surprise! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13056341 Camelot One :
said by calvoiper See Profile:

Maybe so people wouldn't die?

(Sorry, I forgot. This is SBC and heartless Ed Whitacre we're talking about here....)

calvoiper
Why is it SBC's responsibility? They provide a landline service that calls 911 just fine. Why should they go out of their way to make sure people who DON'T use their service are taken care of? Whats next, expecting them to provide free dial tone just in case a non-paying customer needs to make a call?

This is Vonage's problem plain and simple. If they can convince SBC to cooperate then great. But if not, they have no right to cry fowl.
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AMD A64 3200+/ MSI K8N Neo/ 2x 512Mb Kingston HyperX PC4000/ WD 74Gb Raptor/ Gainward GF4 4600/ Gainward 5200PCI/ Antec 550 True Control/ Custom water cooler]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13056341 Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:19:54 EDT Re: what a shocking surprise! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13055695 achuchma :
said by TeleTom:

After 36 years in the telecommunications business working for an RBOC I am not surprised or disappointed by SBC's response.
...
If criticism, jeers and shame are to be passed out they should go to Vonage or any other provider who fails to clearly explain to their customers the capabilities AND limitations of the service they offer.
Please...Vonage clearly informs their Customer's about the pitfalls of 911 service on their VoIP service.

And, in terms of SBC, they may have push for development 1965 (which would have been AT&T at that time), but they have been far more lazy in the past 15 years I have been working in the telecom industry.

What ticks me off is that SBC is trying to harbor ownership of E-911 service (like they do for local loops), which are/were NOT funded by SBC, the infrastructure was paid for by Uncle Sam and Customer's through direct bill charges.

SBC, like they have been in the past with CLECS, is trying to get rid of competition though unfair business practices. Plain and simple.
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Playing the Tuba isn't an art, it's an adventure! http://www.lakesidepride.org]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13055695 Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:06:00 EDT Re: what a shocking surprise! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13055599 anon : After 36 years in the telecommunications business working for an RBOC I am not surprised or disappointed by SBC's response.

The Telecommunications industry has, at least since I started in 1965, had industry wide forums for the development, coordination and interface of equipment and technologies.

The fact that SBC prefers to develop standards in such an industry wide forum should be commended not criticized. Such forums insure ALL interested parties have input and a fair hearing. Backroom off the wall designs serve only special interests and not the general good.

If criticism, jeers and shame are to be passed out they should go to Vonage or any other provider who fails to clearly explain to their customers the capabilities AND limitations of the service they offer. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13055599 Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:55:51 EDT Re: what a shocking surprise! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13055597 achuchma :
said by Camelot One See Profile:

This may be the one and only time I side with a telco on something. SBC knows 911 service is the only thing they have over VoIP, and as a business, why would they give that up?
E-911 is not SBC's to covet. They did not pay for the network, WE did...Check your copper phone bill...That E-911 service charge is what funds the E-911 system.
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Playing the Tuba isn't an art, it's an adventure! http://www.lakesidepride.org]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13055597 Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:55:23 EDT Re: what a shocking surprise! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13054643 audiog : The FCC has created this 911 problem by saying that the VoIP providers can make it work without our intervention.
The 911 problems were around when the FCC granted VoIP operators permission over the objections of the telcos who are working on the 911 problem with there packet based networks that they are testing.

Why would SBC help Vonage when they are getting AT&T VoIP platform. SBC is working on there own software hardware combo. The RBOCs are going VoIP because it will remove state regulation from the picture if they go VoIP and if the states lose in the battle court with the FCC over states right to regulate. You will lose your right to file a complaints at the local level if the states lose.

Yes there is a solution that is similar to the cell net but cellular nets are more directional than a packet based network. Cell calls are collected to a central area and then put into the wire/fiber nets at the tandems. So if the call stays in the cell net it incurs no cost all others are put in to the network at the access tandems for distribution and the cell net will tag a 911 call with location information as public and not secure.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13054643 Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:03:05 EDT Re: what a shocking surprise! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13054440 calvoiper :
said by Camelot One See Profile:

...SBC knows 911 service is the only thing they have over VoIP, and as a business, why would they give that up? ...
Maybe so people wouldn't die?

(Sorry, I forgot. This is SBC and heartless Ed Whitacre we're talking about here....)

calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13054440 Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:36:58 EDT Re: what a shocking surprise! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13053964 Pz_ : I hardly think that Vonage or any other VOIP provider will be driving ANY of the telcos out of business anytime soon.

Too bad, since I hate SBC and would love to see them forced to play fair.

Sort of like how I don't think that alternative energy is going to put big oil out of business. They will just buy it all up when it gets popular enough. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13053964 Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:35:18 EDT Re: what a shocking surprise! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13053734 Camelot One : This may be the one and only time I side with a telco on something. SBC knows 911 service is the only thing they have over VoIP, and as a business, why would they give that up?

And as others pointed out, Vonage jumped the gun with an incomplete service launch, and is now upset their competitors aren't willing to give them another leg up.

As a VoIP customer, I'd like to see them get all this worked out. But I can't blame the telco's for not wanting to make it easy for VoIP providers to drive them out of business.
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AMD A64 3200+/ MSI K8N Neo/ 2x 512Mb Kingston HyperX PC4000/ WD 74Gb Raptor/ Gainward GF4 4600/ Gainward 5200PCI/ Antec 550 True Control/ Custom water cooler]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13053734 Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:09:37 EDT Re: what a shocking surprise! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13053671 zoom314 :
said by nasadude See Profile:

And the FCC and congress want to completely deregulate the ILECs?
SBC is being silly, Short of blocking VoIP entirely, I think They are testing how much they can get away with versus the FCC, I wouldn't doubt They'd like to shut out the VoIP providers entirely. Do I think SBCs claim of Vonages asking for assistance is proprietary? No I don't, As the other Bells to one extent or another are cooperating, So why can't SBC?
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Firefox forever! »mysite.verizon.net/zoom314/]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13053671 Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:01:47 EDT Re: what a shocking surprise! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13053609 anon : Ya dude I hear ya, things were better with ma bell.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13053609 Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:53:05 EDT what a shocking surprise! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13053572 nasadude : And the FCC and congress want to completely deregulate the ILECs? ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13053572 Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:49:03 EDT