Re: Quality vs. flexibility in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r12974215 en Wed, 25 Nov 2009 04:46:03 EDT Wed, 25 Nov 2009 04:46:03 EDT Re: Quality vs. flexibility http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12993692 SRFireside : Well you brought up the usefulness of positional audio in the car. Not me :-). And stet I know there are vehicles out there that cut out outside environmental noise. I see the commercials all the time. But there are fewer of those out in the road than the noisy cars. My preference is to be able to hear a fair amount of what's going on outside. Makes for safer driving when you can hear things quieter than a siren or horn (or crash, etc). ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12993692 Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:56:48 EDT Re: Quality vs. flexibility http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12992903 stet :
said by SRFireside See Profile:

To really reap the benefits of audiophile quality music in a car you would need a car that completely isolates the outside world. Not many cars do that. Personally I don't even want that. Not hearing the outside environment when driving is just asking for trouble.
I have a Chevy Avalanche (fully loaded) and when the windows are closed I don't hear much of the outside world at all. In fact, I hear more outside noises when I'm in my living room then I do when driving around. Also, doesn't Ford advertise that the interior of new F150 is almost completely sound proof?
--
I am of the stars.
I am called "Forever".
Eternity courses through my veins.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12992903 Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:03:06 EDT Re: Quality vs. flexibility http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12992855 yock : Well, 5.1 implies positional audio. It has nothing to do with audio fidelity. You can get four channels of distreet audio from a cassette tape...doesn't mean it sounds like a dream. =)
--
Statistical correlation need not imply causation.
Technical Nirvana]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12992855 Thu, 24 Mar 2005 11:57:07 EDT Re: Quality vs. flexibility http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12992824 SRFireside : What I am saying is the audio entertainment enhancements (audio fidelity) of the more advanced sound technologies tend to be lost in an environment like the car. Regular CD audio with good hardware to back it up makes for an incredible listening experience in the car. Surface noise, impedance, and other factors in your average vehicle (in my opinion) outweigh the subtle benefits the average ear would enjoy.

Four speaker separation can easily be simulated with crossovers (if even that). Sure it's not true four directional audio, but it works. Not that I'm trying to make a point over not having a 5.1 Dolby Digital Surround car system. Positional audio wasn't my focus at all. Just audio fidelity.

Yes some people would welcome SACD capabilities in their car and yes it's a judgement call on whether or not buying one for the car is a waste of money. But I did point that out on my last comment. For the average consumer it is indeed not necessary today. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12992824 Thu, 24 Mar 2005 11:54:12 EDT Re: Quality vs. flexibility http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12992522 yock : "Waste of money" is purely a judgement call and it really makes no difference here. There are applications other than entertainment for positional audio in a vehicle that could be useful. We also yet again get into this "optimal" argument. Why doesn't it have to be perfect to enjoy it? Last I checked most major movie theaters had positional audio. You all telling me that every seat in the house ps perfectly attuned to the positional audio system? Of course it isn't, but the effect is FAR from lost on the patrons.
--
Statistical correlation need not imply causation.
Technical Nirvana]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12992522 Thu, 24 Mar 2005 11:15:38 EDT Re: Quality vs. flexibility http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12991571 SRFireside : To really reap the benefits of audiophile quality music in a car you would need a car that completely isolates the outside world. Not many cars do that. Personally I don't even want that. Not hearing the outside environment when driving is just asking for trouble. Yes high end audio in the car is wonderful, but having DVD-A or SACD quality would be a waste of money unless you are one of the few who want total isolation from the road and want the bragging rights. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12991571 Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:03:32 EDT Re: Quality vs. flexibility http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12989345 imrf :
said by andrewe77 See Profile:

I think you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
Hardly. But believe what you want. I don't care. :uhh:]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12989345 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 22:54:56 EDT Re: Quality vs. flexibility http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12989312 andrewe77 : "Yes, it's totally unnecessary in a car, but at home its great. I have quite a few DVD-A discs and hearing them in Dolby Digital 5.1 or DTS is great, makes music sound so much better. The car idea is dumb in general though."

I think you don't know what the hell you're talking about.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12989312 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 22:51:09 EDT Re: Quality vs. flexibility http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12983292 TheMadSwede : Exactly!

There's a place for MP3s just like there's a place for vending machines, fast food, simple restaurants and fancy restaurants.

The problem is not always the ignorance of the average consumer, as some elitists would try to maintain, but rather that the average consumer has neither the money nor the desire.
--
home]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12983292 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:48:02 EDT Re: Quality vs. flexibility http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12979718 yock :
said by Andoh See Profile:

I guess that's OK as long as you are driving alone.
I'm as much a sound geek as the next guy (or at least as much as I can afford to be), but there comes a point where it's an obsession. I mean, c'mon, by your logic you'd rather not have it than to not listen to it "optimally." That's purely argumentative and I guarantee you all don't mean it.
--
Statistical correlation need not imply causation.
Technical Nirvana]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12979718 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 22:38:54 EDT Re: Quality vs. flexibility http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12979605 Andoh : I guess that's OK as long as you are driving alone. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12979605 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 22:27:57 EDT Re: Quality vs. flexibility http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12978573 BigFresh : The bottom line with me and my satellite radio was that I got similar quality to radio, WITHOUT the annoying commercials!!! A twenty minute ride in the car now gets 5-6 songs, compared to 1 to 3 (if I was lucky!) The bottom line is that there are different strokes for different folks.

To say the disc is dead is a foolish statement. Even if their preminition is true, it's not something we have to worry about now anyway. I think comparing music discs (CD's DVD-A) to video discs (DVD, HD-DVD, Blu-Ray) is foolish. I can accept a bit of loss on my music if it gives me portability when I want it. Personally, I'm anxiously awaiting the decision on HD-DVDs! I've held off my collection until they come about, because 480p won't hold a candle to 720p, 1080i, p, etc!!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12978573 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 20:43:11 EDT Re: Quality vs. flexibility http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12977828 mad_chemist : Although I'm not "frightened" by people not caring about high quality audio, I do think that more titles would be released on SACD and DVD-Audio, if there was more of a demand for them. If people are satisfied with mp3-quality audio, then what's the incentive to produce a 5.1-channel, high quality mix? I'll add, though, that I'm not knocking mp3's -- I enjoy the portability and storage of mp3 (I can put 100 songs on a cd-r and play it in my car, for hours)..but at home, I enjoy my (few) SACD's and DVD-Audio disks a lot more, and I can definitely tell the difference between them and the mp3's (on my home theatre system, that is).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12977828 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 19:27:00 EDT Re: Quality vs. flexibility http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12977529 EnTRANCEd :
said by djrobx See Profile:

Never underestimate the human's desire to collect things. Television shows on DVD made 2.28 billion dollars in 2004, despite the fact that most were freely available on TV networks. Lots of people have huge DVD collections even though they only watch movies once. I think on demand content will be a huge player in the coming years, but a true paradigm shift away from collectable media will likely take much longer than a century.
i know that rings true for me. once the bug hit me, i started collecting DVDs. i don't even get to watch most of them, it's just the fact of collecting them. from November of last year i think i collected 145 DVDs, and that's not counting each disc from a series (ie Friends).
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Life is all about ass ... either you are covering it, kicking it, kissing it, or trying to get it]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12977529 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 18:54:11 EDT Re: Quality vs. flexibility http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12976315 oliphant : The same could be said about most of the TL...but then it would be $40-$50K instead of $30K.
--
Don't get it, demand it! The Anime Network www.theanimenetwork.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12976315 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:42:29 EDT Re: Quality vs. flexibility http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12976131 imrf :
said by oliphant See Profile:

I have the TL and 5.1 is awesome and I'm glad I have it.
It's a shame that Acura didn't go for someone who knows how to make speakers. BOSE suck, they would have been better off scoring a contract with Dynaudio if they were aiming for high quality.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12976131 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:24:06 EDT Re: Quality vs. flexibility http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12976124 SRFireside : Availability and price. Those systems are pricey and the media is pretty high as well. Although I admit $20 for a DVDA isn't that much more than some standard CDs out there going for $17, but then again I never buy my CD's at $17 neither. :-)

I'm guessing a few more years for the equipment to go down in price and the subsequent media will as well. I'll be living the high life (audio-wise) by then.

If you ask me hard copies will never go away. Maybe CD's might fade (in a few decades) but there will always be something out there. Look at how long they have been talking about paperless offices? It will never happen. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12976124 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:23:39 EDT Re: Quality vs. flexibility http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12975981 oliphant : I have the TL and 5.1 is awesome and I'm glad I have it. Problem isn't quality vs flexibility...it's availability. Try to find everything on DTS, DVDA or SACD...few titles are available so of course they're going to be a tiny fraction of the market. I wouldn't buy a non-5.1 title again if given the CHOICE.
--
Don't get it, demand it! The Anime Network www.theanimenetwork.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12975981 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:10:44 EDT Re: Quality vs. flexibility http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12975612 stet :
said by 91439306 See Profile:

Most people can't distinguish the difference because:

a: they are listening on sub-$2,000 speakers
b: they have never attended a classical music concert and have no idea what real music sounds like.
c: a lot of people just never tried to tell the difference (ie: they never bothered to listen to the same song from different sources).
--
I am of the stars.
I am called "Forever".
Eternity courses through my veins.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12975612 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:33:36 EDT Re: Quality vs. flexibility http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12975358 imrf :
said by Davros866 See Profile:

DVD-Audio is NOT Dolby Digital or DTS!
I never said it was. :uhh:

Try to get your player configured correctly and you'll notice a huge difference!
Thanks, it already is. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12975358 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:06:38 EDT Re: Quality vs. flexibility http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12975305 91439306 : Most people can't distinguish the difference because:

a: they are listening on sub-$2,000 speakers
b: they have never attended a classical music concert and have no idea what real music sounds like.

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]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12975305 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:01:31 EDT Re: Quality vs. flexibility http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12974588 TheMadSwede :
said by djrobx See Profile:

Yup. I'm frightened by how many people think that SAT radio is "CD quality".
Are you seriously frightened by it? What's the (real) damage if someone doesn't know (or care) about everything being the best quality?
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home]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12974588 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:40:41 EDT Re: Quality vs. flexibility http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12974548 Davros866 : "Yes, it's totally unnecessary in a car, but at home its great. I have quite a few DVD-A discs and hearing them in Dolby Digital 5.1 or DTS is great, makes music sound so much better. The car idea is dumb in general though."

DVD-Audio is NOT Dolby Digital or DTS! You are listening to the wrong layer of your DVD-A disk if you think it is. Dolby and DTS are compressed, lossy formats. DVD-A is an uncompressed, high bitrate, multichannel format. Try to get your player configured correctly and you'll notice a huge difference!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12974548 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:35:36 EDT Re: Quality vs. flexibility http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12974500 jimbo2150 : I agree with jazzy112 See Profile, the quality is rather good (much better than MOST MP3s). I would guess that at least 85% of XM (I have not tried Serius) is at least the quality of a high-bit rate MP3 (at least 200kb/s).
It is either that or listen to static-filled, commerical filled, land-based FM. I heard a few years ago that FM was to go digital, but that is apparently bust.

Comparing satelite radio with FM terestrial radio is like comparing a Porshe to a Saturn. The Porshe is ganna sound better. Period.
Satelite is as high-quality as radio is ganna get in this age, your ganna have to live with it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12974500 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:30:11 EDT Re: Quality vs. flexibility Argg! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12974451 p71rock : Argg! then How am I suppose to get my Anime on DVD then.

Humm, RePlayTV then I guess.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12974451 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:23:48 EDT Re: Quality vs. flexibility http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12974287 yock :
said by imrf See Profile:

said by vpoko See Profile:

You also have the effect of hearing the sound differently depending on where in the car you are sitting.
Exactly. You want to be in the center of the action, not in the front left position for a driver or whatever.
Real life is far from perfect. I have yet to see a perfectly designed spatial audio system where everyone in the audience can hear everything perfectly. Besides, that's what distance controls are for.
--
Statistical correlation need not imply causation.
Technical Nirvana]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12974287 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:02:08 EDT Re: Quality vs. flexibility http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12974283 jazzy112 : Quote:
Yup. I'm frightened by how many people think that SAT radio is "CD quality". To me both Sirius and XM sound like a badly encoded MP3.

Reply:
Have you ever listened to Sirius or XM without using those stupid FM modulators? If not, you can't judge the quality of service. These technologies are very hardware dependent. If you buy cheap crap you will get crap in return. I do agree that they aren't wuite CD quality, but I have yet to hear an MP3 off the internet that sounds as good. Heck, even the sirius internet streams sound better than most MP3's you find floating on the internet. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12974283 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:01:56 EDT Re: Quality vs. flexibility http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12974268 imrf :
said by vpoko See Profile:

You also have the effect of hearing the sound differently depending on where in the car you are sitting.
Exactly. You want to be in the center of the action, not in the front left position for a driver or whatever.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12974268 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:00:13 EDT Re: Quality vs. flexibility http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12974261 imrf :
said by yock See Profile:

I think the car idea is perfect. An enclosed space is the best environment for spatial audio.
Unless you live in a hall or something a living room or home theater room is the same, but ideally with much better equipment. Car makers use crap equipment for their audio systems, while they can give you the audio in a 5.1 format, it won't be as accurate as a home theater system is, which is part of the idea behind DVD-A and SACDs. I have listened to the Acura TLs DVD-A system and it's ok, but not that great.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12974261 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 12:59:02 EDT Re: Quality vs. flexibility http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12974215 vpoko : Except that with a car it's impossible to isolate yourself from outside noise (and if it was, it wouldn't be safe).

You also have the effect of hearing the sound differently depending on where in the car you are sitting.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12974215 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 12:53:35 EDT Re: Quality vs. flexibility http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12974171 yock :
said by imrf See Profile:

said by djrobx See Profile:

5.1+ audio on an audio-only music performance is fun, but unnecessary. A friend of mine got an Acura TL with the DVD audio system.
Yes, it's totally unnecessary in a car, but at home its great. I have quite a few DVD-A discs and hearing them in Dolby Digital 5.1 or DTS is great, makes music sound so much better. The car idea is dumb in general though.
I think the car idea is perfect. An enclosed space is the best environment for spatial audio.
--
Statistical correlation need not imply causation.
Technical Nirvana]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12974171 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 12:50:16 EDT Re: Quality vs. flexibility http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12974149 imrf :
said by djrobx See Profile:

5.1+ audio on an audio-only music performance is fun, but unnecessary. A friend of mine got an Acura TL with the DVD audio system.
Yes, it's totally unnecessary in a car, but at home its great. I have quite a few DVD-A discs and hearing them in Dolby Digital 5.1 or DTS is great, makes music sound so much better. The car idea is dumb in general though.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12974149 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 12:48:25 EDT Re: Quality vs. flexibility http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12974116 yock :
said by vpoko See Profile:

Quality vs. flexibility it ain't. People are willing to give up quality because most listeners can't distinguish a lossy format like MP3 from better-than-CD quality. Once the bandwidth is cheap enough I don't think anyone will have to sacrifice one for the other.

The part about discs going away in the future is common sense.
I listen t some music through Rhapsody, but if it's anything I truly enjoy I get the CD. The difference is very noticeable.
--
Statistical correlation need not imply causation.
Technical Nirvana]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12974116 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 12:44:27 EDT Re: Quality vs. flexibility http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12974093 djrobx : Never underestimate the human's desire to collect things. Television shows on DVD made 2.28 billion dollars in 2004, despite the fact that most were freely available on TV networks. Lots of people have huge DVD collections even though they only watch movies once. I think on demand content will be a huge player in the coming years, but a true paradigm shift away from collectable media will likely take much longer than a century.

quote:
... because most listeners can't distinguish a lossy format like MP3 from better-than-CD quality.
Yup. I'm frightened by how many people think that SAT radio is "CD quality". To me both Sirius and XM sound like a badly encoded MP3. Even though I'm pretty sensitive to quality losses, even I would rather have a DRM-free CD that I can rip to high bitrate MP3 to put in my car MP3 player or portable, than a DVD-Audio disc that I can't do anything with. And I still listen to Sirius because having content available is more important than quality.

CD quality still has much more capacity than most people's speaker systems anyway. 5.1+ audio on an audio-only music performance is fun, but unnecessary. A friend of mine got an Acura TL with the DVD audio system. He eagerly showed off a Shania Twain DVD-A. The directional audio was fun, until someone got in the back seat. Back to the plain old collection! I wouldn't know how much of an improvement DVD-A actually makes on the audio, since the Acura factory speakers aren't exactly audiophile quality.

I wish I could get behind a movement for better quality audio, but I can't. A lot of the music being produced these days isn't even taking advantage of the CD format. Some of the best sounding CDs I have are remastered albms from the 80s. Having my entire library at my fingertips when I get in my car is far more exciting than an incremental increase in quality.
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\\ROB - a part of the SCB local network]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12974093 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 12:40:43 EDT Quality vs. flexibility http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12973736 vpoko : Quality vs. flexibility it ain't. People are willing to give up quality because most listeners can't distinguish a lossy format like MP3 from better-than-CD quality. Once the bandwidth is cheap enough I don't think anyone will have to sacrifice one for the other.

The part about discs going away in the future is common sense.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12973736 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:57:29 EDT