[Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse in VOIP Tech Chat

said by voiplover

said by laserjobs

said by voiplover

said by laserjobs

:

Unlimited is still Unlimited thanks to her persistence and patience.
Thanks SLW! :)

But Unlimited is Unlimited only for her. What about every other Packet8 user? :huh:

And you read that where?

Hello,

Thank you for contacting our Packet8 Support team.

Our Freedom unlimited plan consists of unlimited local and long
distance calling to US and Canada. However due to some customer abuse
of residential plans being used for business purposes, we require that
usage be contained below 3000-4000 a month. We will research your
account if you have excessive usage and will require you to upgrade
your plan to a business plan.

If you have any other concerns, please feel free to contact us.

Packet8 Support
1(888)898-8733]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12985350 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:58:35 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12985293 voiplover :

said by laserjobs

said by voiplover

said by laserjobs

:

Unlimited is still Unlimited thanks to her persistence and patience.
Thanks SLW! :)

But Unlimited is Unlimited only for her. What about every other Packet8 user? :huh:

And you read that where?
Why don't you just subscribe to P8 again and run a test for us to see how many minutes you can use before they figure it's you again? ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12985293 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:52:41 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12985278 Daviey : I don't know SLW, I emailed sales@lingo.com and got a reply within the hour. At this point I would think your account will be the last one they (P8) consider dropping, so talk on :D.

David]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12985278 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:50:49 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12985249 voiplover :

said by lifeform

:

I am sure they are not in a hurry to answer that email. It would be like the answering machine at an "all you can eat" buffet getting a call from a football team about their policy of "all you can eat" and the teams plan to camp out there every meal for the forseeable future. :)

I imagine that the all you can eat deal would get pricey! :p]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12985249 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:48:14 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12985197 laserjobs :

said by voiplover

said by laserjobs

:

Unlimited is still Unlimited thanks to her persistence and patience.
Thanks SLW! :)

But Unlimited is Unlimited only for her. What about every other Packet8 user? :huh:]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12985197 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:42:02 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12985192 lifeform : I am sure they are not in a hurry to answer that email. It would be like the answering machine at an "all you can eat" buffet getting a call from a football team about their policy of "all you can eat" and the teams plan to camp out there every meal for the forseeable future. :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12985192 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:41:21 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12985091 voiplover :

said by laserjobs

said by voiplover

said by laserjobs

:

Unlimited minutes either forwarding, incoming or outgoing all equal the same when it is Unlimited

So how many minutes until you reach unlimited? The world may never know, unless you are with Packet 8 then it is around 3000-4000. :D

Funny. But I doubt that I'll ever reach enough minutes to even get an email from P8 about it. SLW had to do 8500 before she got one. Unlimited is still Unlimited thanks to her persistence and patience.
Thanks SLW! :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12985091 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:30:23 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12984994 SLW1 :

quote:
In all fairness to Lingo, I emailed them (and others) and they were quite frank about saying the plan meant 45000 minutes per month. Of course they may have seen this thread and decided to stay out of this mess :D.

Is that why they (Lingo) didn't email me back?:hmm: I emailed them on Monday and got an auto response saying I'd get an answer within 24 hours...still waiting...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12984994 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:20:21 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12984909 laserjobs :

said by voiplover

said by laserjobs

:

Unlimited minutes either forwarding, incoming or outgoing all equal the same when it is Unlimited

So how many minutes until you reach unlimited? The world may never know, unless you are with Packet 8 then it is around 3000-4000. :D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12984909 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:12:46 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12984855 voiplover :

said by laserjobs

:

Unlimited minutes either forwarding, incoming or outgoing all equal the same when it is Unlimited

Wrong again Burt. Anyone having a P8 account and reviewing Thier call log would know that call forwarding shows the incoming call and time used and the out going forwarded call + the time used. So in effect it is twice the amount of time. Not that it matters. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12984855 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:07:43 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12984772 Daviey :

said by budone

:

Packet8 never investigated whether it was business use or any other use noted in the TOS...

We actually don't know this to be true - that's speculation. As to the ISP's, what they are doing now doesn't address my question - the market has changed in the past 5 years. At that time, however, it was a big deal to advertise "Unlimited" because you had AOL and others charging a lot in per minute usage. There were consumer challenges to this practice and, correct me if I am wrong, I don't remember any of them succeeding. I'm wondering how this compares to that situation.

For the record, I switched to another dialup provider during that time even though I did not go over the limit - it just bothered me. I used that provider until cable came along.

-D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12984772 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:58:02 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12984665 laserjobs : Unlimited minutes either forwarding, incoming or outgoing all equal the same when it is Unlimited]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12984665 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:45:26 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12984295 voiplover : I never bothered to look at forwarding because we are on an unlimited plan, but you are correct.
They do add up as double the minutes used.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12984295 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:04:06 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12984124 ericandtammy : This thread is rather long and I may have missed this point if already made, but I do know what can make the time usage a little unfair is if the call is answered on a forwarded line. In this case, the amount of time spent on the call is actually doubled. (For example, if you spend 10 minutes on the call 20 minutes is shown as usage; 10 minutes "IN" and 10 minutes "OUT".)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12984124 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:43:07 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12984076 budone : First, All I did was respond to a question that was posted.

As for the 'soft limit' and it causing the company to 'closely monitor' is not true in this case. SLW was given two choices initially,

- Switch to Business 2000
- Terminate service.

That is not monitoring, that is a company who, when they saw 'in their minds' excessive use, gave the customer a no win solution, except for the company.

Packet8 never investigated whether it was business use or any other use noted in the TOS that caused her account to have many minutes used. They saw themselves losing money on this one account, and used the TOS to force the subscriber to choose between two plans. Even though, (from what we have read) she did everything correctly based on the TOS.

A simple fix for this was for packet8 to list the plan as Residential 4000. If they had done that in the beginning this thread of 200 msg's never would have occurred.

Internet providers have in most cases eliminated the 'unlimited' wording in advertising and as time goes on, you will see more and more ISP's begin to limit download limits. That is fine, as long as it is in the agreement up front, prior to signing up for service. Or the changes posted CLEARLY in their TOS. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12984076 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:37:23 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12984021 Daviey :

said by laserjobs

:

I really don't care what company it is, if you advertise "Unlimited" service you better be prepared to deliver it.

I understand this point and, given the recent statements attributed to P8 concerning a hard limit, I tend to agree. That said, how would one see this differently than the "Unlimited" dialup plans of the late 90's? AT&T, Verizon (then GTE I think) and others were advertising Unlimited Plans but limited usage to either 100 or 150 hours per month. There were challenges to this practice but I don't recall any that were successful. So, even if we agree that it's wrong, has the marketplace already redefined the usage of "unlimited" in advertising in spite of Webster? IOW, does it now mean relatively unlimited? This is a question, not a statement, so please respond nicely ;).

In all fairness to Lingo, I emailed them (and others) and they were quite frank about saying the plan meant 45000 minutes per month. Of course they may have seen this thread and decided to stay out of this mess :D. When I was with Vonage they said they started checking at 3000 but that was some time ago. Broadvoice, a more recent experience, said 5000 minutes. I haven't received replies from anyone else yet.

-D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12984021 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:32:55 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12983769 laserjobs : I really don't care what company it is, if you advertise "Unlimited" service you better be prepared to deliver it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12983769 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:00:15 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12983637 IanR : Be aware of what "practise" you wish to complain about.

Nobody on this thread has admitted to their service being either "disrupted" or account "closed".

We have all agreed that there is a telecommunications "practise" to advertise "unlimited" consumer packages for North America. This is NOT limited to P8 but is widespread across all the VoIP providers and Baby Bells.

We have also established that there is a "soft limit" at which point P8 (and other VoIP providers) will closely monitor the activity of those who have signed up as "consumers". We believe this is in the region of 5,000 minutes per month or above. (Note AT&T and others have discussed the same tactic).

We have also established that it is common for TOS to give the right to providers to switch accounts which appear to be "businesses" signed up originally as "consumers" to business type accounts based upon "unreasonable usage" and/or activity which appears to support a business.

We have also established that in this one case starting this thread P8 sent out a warning that the account looked to be a "business" and could be moved to that designation. The person owning the account has made representation to P8 that it is ONLY a "consumer" account, despite large usage. P8 appear to have agreed, for now, to further monitor the account b4 any type of action is taken, if any.

So in summary.

1) We have an industry wide advertising practise using the word "unlimited" for "consumers" and many people object to this and the info in TOS

2) We have no actual "harm" (at this time) to the person who started the thread]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12983637 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:43:12 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12983444 budone :

said by laserjobs

:

All this said about Packet8, does anyone know or have any ideas of how to get this practice out publicly to the press or similar?

Very simply, if you want to do this and if your local paper has a tech section to it, write to it via email and send the link to this thread. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12983444 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:13:46 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12983116 PJIV : That entirely depends on what your definition of "is" is.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12983116 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:28:47 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12983097 voiplover :

said by laserjobs

:

All this said about Packet8, does anyone know or have any ideas of how to get this practice out publicly to the press or similar? This policy should be made public so that customers and perspective customers know Packet8's real TOS. I am so tired of people getting ripped off because companies and upper management feel they are above the law.

OK, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and ask;

"I am so tired of people getting ripped off because companies and upper management feel they are above the law."

So who got ripped off here and by how much did they get taken for and how did upper management deal with the problem that you would for even a second state that they feel they are above the law?

OR, is this just Laserjobs posting more BS about a company and subscribers that he is out to slander.
Or should we just read one of your last threads:
»Why the pump it up Packet8 thread every week?

There have been a lot of useful posts on this thread, but enough with the BS.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12983097 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:25:46 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12982964 laserjobs : All this said about Packet8, does anyone know or have any ideas of how to get this practice out publicly to the press or similar? This policy should be made public so that customers and perspective customers know Packet8's real TOS. I am so tired of people getting ripped off because companies and upper management feel they are above the law.

And now Packet8 management feels like they need bonuses »[Packet8] Bonuses for top execs! Hip Hip Hooray!

IMHO Packet8 is acting criminally towards their customers and stockholders with these antics they are pulling]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12982964 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:07:54 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12982599 WhyADuck :

said by DracoFelis

:

However, the problem seems to be that P8 management can't seem to remember the past (or maybe they have been losing money for so long, that they are now getting pressure to show short term gains at any cost).

You know, I wasn't going to say anything about that because every times someone questions P8's stability we always hear about how long 8x8 has been in business, etc., etc. But the fact is, I don't see any of the other major VoIP companies doing tricks like this, and for that matter, I don't see any of them charging for incoming calls (note I said "major" VoIP companies). Maybe those who say that 8x8 is in fine financial state are correct, but if so, who do they sometimes act like a company that is so desperate to squeeze money out of customers that they must resort to misleading use of words like "unlimited"?

The irony is that by pulling stunts like this they probably lose more money than they make. Word gets around about the various companies, and especially when it's a company that depends upon the public Internet, people on the Internet tend to share their views with each other.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12982599 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:18:50 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12982510 voiplover : It is the providers responsibility to monitor and police their networks and equipment with regard to abuse and improper use.
I don't like the way P8 handled the original email to SLW. That is the wrong way to handle the investigation of any subscribers account usage. I hope that this causes a change. Apparently P8 has been holding to a policy that they would rather lose a subscriber that has higher than normal usage instead of actually verifying whether the usage is within the limits allowed (advertised) for the plan.
One thing that P8 probably does not understand is that the use of the word 'Investigation' is hostile toward most residential customers.

As for the use of the term "Unlimited" none of us can say enough.
P8 has thousands of customers, and I do not believe the claims here that 3 to 4k is the max allowed minutes on the unlimited plan. SLW is one of the 1st threads here on this issue. Think about it.
It should be easy to distinguish a Telemarketer using 8k of minutes in a span of 4 hours. I take it that P8 does not bother to investigate usage under 3 or 4K.
P8 did threaten SLW but gave her the thumbs up after reviewing her account. It could have been done in a more professional manner.
I would like to know the best way to handle this situation if I am placed in the same perdictament.
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12982510 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:06:42 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12982337 DracoFelis :

said by chesney09

:

If P8 wants to set limits, PUT IT IN THE TOS so it eliminates the gray areas. Even P8 responding to the unlimited being 3000-4000 minutes after an email inquiry is not fair to a customer as it is NOT listed in the TOS, and it leaves A LOT to be determined my either a headset phone jockey of some manager that may be having a bad day.

No, don't just put it in the TOS. Put it in the TOS, and put in clearly in your advertising, and give existing customers the option to leave WITHOUT PENALTY if they don't like the new TOS. OTOH from a "public relations" standpoint, it will hurt P8 if they decide to publicly limit their minutes (when other companies are still offering "unlimited"). It won't hurt them nearly as much as the current "bad press" for being "sleazy" about it, but it will still hurt.

Case in point. Anyone else remember when P8 actually changed their TOS to 5000 minute limit (about a year or two back)? I do. There were a lot of unhappy customers at that time, many of them had signed up (often paying signup fees) assuming that the "safety net" of "unlimited" would always be there (even if/when most of those customers didn't use anywhere near that many minutes). Eventually P8 publicly decided to change the TOS (back to "unlimited"), and promised instead to review customers with high minute usage (to make sure their calling really was "residential"). Fair enough! IMHO that's the way it should be for "unlimited residential" calling (review high usage, to keep telemarketers/etc off the plan, but let families that are "chatty" (including ones like mine, with teenagers) get the "unlimited" they have paid for)!

However, the problem seems to be that P8 management can't seem to remember the past (or maybe they have been losing money for so long, that they are now getting pressure to show short term gains at any cost). Either way, it looks like they are backing off of the "we will review your account if/when you use a lot of minutes", and slipping into the very iffy "we will assume a lot of minutes is 'business usage' without that review". I am all for P8 doing reviews if/when they feel it is necessary, providing that they are honest reviews (and not an excuse to put the little guy on the defensive, for simply using the service that was paid for)!

NOTE: I have been a P8 customer for well over a year (and I was with Vonage before P8). For the most part I have been happy with P8, and (unlike a lot of the providers) they do have a rate center that is conveniently located (not "local", but useful) to me. However, I have noticed that phone quality has been going down and (if threads on this board are any indication) so has "service". While we haven't heard an "official announcement" from P8 (several members have posted private messages from P8, but P8 itself hasn't posted a press release here), I am greatly concerned about their apparent "the customer is always wrong" management style that seems to be coming out.

I will keep my P8 for the present (since I already have my P8 number in a handy location, and so far my usage has been under 3000 minutes every month), but I will keep my options open. I also realize that P8 could go "bankrupt" at some point, so I am prepared to quickly switch if/when needed. But if P8 just decides (at some point in the future) to "hassle me" (or bill me extra) for my chatty family, I won't quietly take it (any more than I quietly took it when AT&T tried billing me around $7 for a collect call we never received). Instead, I would probably block extra charges with my credit card company (a task made easier by the rate limited "single use credit card" I'm paying P8 with), post my experiences on this board (just like SLW did), and probably file a complaint with my AG's office (pretty easy to do, since "consumer complaints" is physically close to the office I work in). P8 needs to realize that they have already greatly hurt their reputation, with these stunts, and there are consequences for not acting ethically. Eventually, the backlash from "sleazy business practices" will kill them, if their mismanagement of money doesn't do so first....

Simply put, I understand both sides of this. P8 is in a "price war" with other companies, and really can't limit their plans (or significantly raise rates) without losing customers (to other companies). But at the same time, as others have pointed out, "unlimited" really does mean you can use it as much as you (the customer) feels is reasonable (as long as you don't do "prohibited things", like use it for running a business). If that makes P8's "business model" unsustainable, that's their problem with their business plan (and is not an excuse for cheating on their promises to their customers).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12982337 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:42:54 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12981860 chesney09 : I have to agree 100% with SLW.

There is a HUGE main issue here that I think some look past. The package as advertised, bought, and used by SLW or anyone else for that matter CLEARLY states UNLIMITED. Yes, there is a clause in the TOS about what THEY deem normal usage ..Blah blah blah. So, becasue she has teens and uses the service she thought she signed up for as unlimited only to be told that she was being switched later to a business plan for excessive use... Is TOTALLY unacceptable. Like she has said.. What is normal and reasonable may not be normal and reasonable to me, you or P8. The matter at hand is that P8 needs to clarify what their limites are as it has been admitted that it is NOT an unlimited plan. Which is fine, P8 is in a business and can make changes to their marketing plans and business plans as they see fit. I understand and have to agree with that. What P8 MUST do is clarify that and make it claer in the TOS and not leave it up to any discretion or GRAY areas. If I pay for something be it unlimited or whatever.. I expect that to be what I get.
What MOST of us have to remember here is that this isn't for us to give our opinion as to what WE think is reasonable use or tell her she should get another line, etc.. IMO, It is thinking like this that allows the eroding of what we pay for, quality, and customer service. When are companies going to start living up to what they CLAIM.

If P8 wants to set limits, PUT IT IN THE TOS so it eliminates the gray areas. Even P8 responding to the unlimited being 3000-4000 minutes after an email inquiry is not fair to a customer as it is NOT listed in the TOS, and it leaves A LOT to be determined my either a headset phone jockey of some manager that may be having a bad day.

SLW, I am glad that you have been able to "win" this battle although you shoud have never had to even fight it. Think of the time you have spent dealing with this.. GREAT Customer service P8! And you can all bet she only won because P8 doesn't have much of a leg to stand on legally. The limits are NOT in the TOS, she is not running a business, and she was sold an unlimited plan.

All these ISP's and Telcos need to wake up and figure out what customer service is, what a little bit of integrity is, and live up to what they offer. I think they MIGHT find a pretty viable customer base that will pay for services, and not find a whole swarm of bees over a stupid issue that they created.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12981860 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:13:04 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12981566 SLW1 : IanR---As I've mentioned several times and I even mentioned to P8, What may be reasonable and normal to me may not be normal and reasonable to you or anyone else. THIS is exactly why P8's statement in the TOS is misleading. Because of living in BFE, we have and will ALWAYS be heavy phone users. Why do you think I was looking for a cheaper alternative? If switched to that B8 plan, getting on the voip bandwagon would have been a waste of time. The approx $214 P8 would have charged being on B8 would have been more than my two line POTS line and long distance. I would have been willing to pay more than $20 a month BTW, but since it was available, why not? My goal was to find something that was on a flat rate system.

'NUFF SAID on that...

I do worry about previously screwed over folks. My main goal was for P8 to at least change the wording in their TOS so it's at least clear as to what they expect out of us end users.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12981566 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 06:25:11 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12981363 MxxCon :

said by SLW1

:

I've spoken with an Associated Press reporter, who found me through this thread. He spoke with P8's CEO, whom was already informed of this issue. I was told that we do not need to worry about our usage in the future and our account has been noted as such. I am waiting for that in writing.

this is great:D.
but what about everybody else who are also being unjustly switched to business account and didn't get similar press exposure as you :huh:
i think it would be beneficial for everybody if you and/or that AP reporter pressured P8 to changed their "false advertisement"/"bait and switch"...maybe still continue to try to get IL AG involved.
--
[Sig removed by Administrator: Signature can not exceed 20GB]]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12981363 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 04:14:20 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12981025 lmjh7065 : While I basically agree with you, sometimes principles are more important than money. But I can hear a lawyer saying "but how much do you want to spend on principles?" Little things mean a lot to some people.

I have heard children being compared to mans best friend the dog. They really want to do what you want them to do, and they really do want to be good, but not without first testing you the master, so to speak. If you make them obey they want to and they will, but not without you letting them know that not just anything goes. I believe we have all seen the results of some children and dogs when this doesn't happen. Now parents can sometimes do their best and no matter what sometimes one child can turn into something really bad/evil. Same thing with dogs. This is not to say the whole family or litter will turn out evil. Isn't this where the saying comes from "you raise corn and rear children"? Some parents merely "raise" children then wonder why things go so wrong. I believe this to be so prevalent these days that the dictionary, due to common usage, has blurred the meaning to now be one and the same meaning for both words (raise/rear).

Similarly a business or business person will, if permitted to get away with the small bad things, I believe will eventually go on to maybe become an Enron or Worldcom. Overall is corruption getting better or worse? At least the bankruptcies due to "cooking the books/creative accounting" have reached all time highs recently. Where do these evildoers come from but from among us. Are we as humans generally becoming better or worse? Are we going to the dogs (sorry, I couldn't resist)? I just see all this as a good versus evil thing. Should we just ignore the small wrongs any more than ignoring a small error in a money matter? Most want the latter correct to the cent. What does size have to do with good/evil? I know legally that the amount matters, but morally/ethically speaking most reasonable persons would not think so, in my opinion.

In order to play the game I first must know the rules. Why can't the VoIP providers be honest, play fair and give us the rules. When will we learn that there are consequences for the things we do in life, good and bad. I was always taught that it's a free country and you can do anything you want as long as you are willing to accept the consequences. To me this seems self-evident.

End of sermon.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12981025 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 01:53:37 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12981003 WhyADuck :

said by IanR

:

You are all so overblowing this issue IMHO.

You are certainly entitled to hold a minority opinion if you like.

said by IanR

:

1) We are talking about a VoIP product costing $19.95 p.m. Not something costing $40-50pm

I see. So in your scheme of morality, it's okay to mislead people as to what they are actually buying as long as it's for only $19.95 per month, but not if it's for a higher amount? If you really believe that, I have some gen-u-ine $20 gold pieces I'd like to sell you. You can buy one per month. Please don't get them wet. ;)

said by IanR

:

2) Other threads show that bigger VoIP companies (charging more money) have similar red flag numbers to highlight people who cheat (Offices)

Right. Nobody here has a problem with companies looking into that kind of usage. It's when they just arbitrarily assume that usage HAS to be non-residential without even bothering to ask the consumer for an explanation that there is a problem.

said by IanR

:

3) 8,500 minutes pm is not "reasonable" IMHO

Again, you are entitled to your opinion. I trust you are not working for any consumer protection organization. In any case, your opinion has absolutely nothing to do with the legality of this situation.

said by IanR

:

There are bigger more important matters in life than this and P8 is a relatively small company, it's not some nasty big fish. It provides decent service. I know I use them.

Without commenting on what level of service they provide (I've read various opinions on that), I think that stopping companies from acquiring customers by using false and misleading advertising, when that is what is happening, is very important. Your attitude seems to be that because they are a small company, this is an insignificant matter, but if everyone had that attitude then owners of small companies would feel totally unrestrained from engaging in deceptive practices. In effect, what you are implying is that only big companies should be required to comply with truth-in-advertising laws, while small companies can say anything whether it is completely true or not.

said by IanR

:

I am sorry, but is you want to run up massive minutes expect ANY company to check if you are for real. AND at the end of the day P8 appears to be trying to work with this user. I don't see anything here to get worked up about. Nobody has suffered and the user in question is saving tons of money by using P8.

As far as the original poster is concerned, your rather rosy summation is probably correct (although we won't know for sure until some time has passed). But if others are being told that "unlimited" doesn't really mean "unlimited" then the larger problem hasn't been resolved at all. It would seem that perhaps their policy hasn't changed; they have simply made an exception in this one case, possibly to avoid adverse publicity. There really does not appear to have been a satisfactory resolution to the larger problem, not yet anyway.

In any case, I totally disagree with your assertion that the issue has been overblown. It is very important for the VoIP industry to have credibility with customers, and that credibility is diminished every time a company misleads a customer. If that credibility is diminished enough, it invites the sort of overbearing regulation that I don't think any of us want.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12981003 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 01:48:01 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12980810 laserjobs :

said by voiplover

:

Sorry IanR, but someone keeps Burting in with erroneous claims. :o

Erroneous claims?

Hello,

Thank you for contacting our Packet8 Support team.

Our Freedom unlimited plan consists of unlimited local and long
distance calling to US and Canada. However due to some customer abuse
of residential plans being used for business purposes, we require that
usage be contained below 3000-4000 a month. We will research your
account if you have excessive usage and will require you to upgrade
your plan to a business plan.

If you have any other concerns, please feel free to contact us.

Packet8 Support
1(888)898-8733

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12980810 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 01:01:31 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12980742 voiplover : Sorry IanR, but someone keeps Burting in with erroneous claims. :o]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12980742 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 00:50:02 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12980638 IanR : You are all so overblowing this issue IMHO.

1) We are talking about a VoIP product costing $19.95 p.m. Not something costing $40-50pm
2) Other threads show that bigger VoIP companies (charging more money) have similar red flag numbers to highlight people who cheat (Offices)
3) 8,500 minutes pm is not "reasonable" IMHO

There are bigger more important matters in life than this and P8 is a relatively small company, it's not some nasty big fish. It provides decent service. I know I use them.

I am sorry, but is you want to run up massive minutes expect ANY company to check if you are for real. AND at the end of the day P8 appears to be trying to work with this user. I don't see anything here to get worked up about. Nobody has suffered and the user in question is saving tons of money by using P8.

End of my rant and end of my participation is this subject.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12980638 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 00:33:05 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12980553 laserjobs :

said by voiplover

said by laserjobs

said by voiplover

said by laserjobs

:

So does anyone have any predictions about what is going to happen to Packet8 for advertising 3000-4000 minutes a month as unlimited? Do we have any protection from deceptive advertising in the USA like the in the UK?

Were are they "advertising 3000-4000 minutes a month as unlimited?" On their website?
I just looked and didn't see it?

Your right voiplover, you have to ask explicitly what unlimited means in Packet 8 world to find out it is 3000-4000 minutes.

Ok. It looked like you were stating that they were advertising 3000-4000 minutes. I forgot to realize the source. ;)

Oh no, if they were advertising 3000-4000 minutes Packet 8 would be doing something right and that's really not their style.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12980553 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 00:19:28 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12980514 voiplover :

said by laserjobs

said by voiplover

said by laserjobs

Were are they "advertising 3000-4000 minutes a month as unlimited?" On their website?
I just looked and didn't see it?

Your right voiplover, you have to ask explicitly what unlimited means in Packet 8 world to find out it is 3000-4000 minutes.

Ok. It looked like you were stating that they were advertising 3000-4000 minutes. I forgot to realize the source. ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12980514 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 00:13:25 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12980434 laserjobs :

said by voiplover

said by laserjobs

Were are they "advertising 3000-4000 minutes a month as unlimited?" On their website?
I just looked and didn't see it?

Your right voiplover, you have to ask explicitly what unlimited means in Packet 8 world to find out it is 3000-4000 minutes.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12980434 Wed, 23 Mar 2005 00:02:55 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12980304 wilsonck :

said by laserjobs

:

Do we have any protection from deceptive advertising in the USA like the in the UK?

Yes, its called the Federal Trade Commission.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12980304 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 23:46:47 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12980268 voiplover :

said by laserjobs

Were are they "advertising 3000-4000 minutes a month as unlimited?" On their website?
I just looked and didn't see it? ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12980268 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 23:42:50 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12980192 laserjobs : So does anyone have any predictions about what is going to happen to Packet8 for advertising 3000-4000 minutes a month as unlimited? Do we have any protection from deceptive advertising in the USA like the in the UK?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12980192 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 23:31:44 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12979119 voip4me :

This just another nail in the Packet8 coffin for me. While I do not use anywhere near the minutes that SLW family does, I purchased the UNLIMTED plan in case I needed too. The responses posted and stated as being from Packet8 support above, show that once again Packet8 cannot be trusted!

I would suggest that SLW request in writing from Packet8 that her future needs for UNLIMITED phone service would be provided without further hassles. If not, I would request that they agree to disagree. Demand that Packet8 waive any disconnect fee and find another provider that can meet her needs,

I have been very unhappy with them since the upgrade fiasco earlier this year and their lack of response to us their paying subscribers. With that said, when my one-year ends in June I will be discontinuing Packet8 and moving my business to a different provider.

One more thing, I found it quite interesting that neither Andy Abramson or Om Malik picked up this thread on their blogs!

John

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12979119 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 21:42:22 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12977396 Medic63 :

said by budone

:

SLW, I think ya opened up a can of worms.... WHICH IS GOOD!!!!!

I think P8 opened the can, and SLW didn't like the smell! :D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12977396 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 18:37:01 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12977254 budone : This was my response to my second question.....

Hello,

I understand the confusion, I will send this to the marketing department.

Thank you,
packet8 Support

SLW, I think ya opened up a can of worms.... WHICH IS GOOD!!!!!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12977254 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 18:19:03 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12977245 SLW1 : I edited my post with the breakdowns for Feb & March...to correct amounts (had a severe d'oh moment and left out two pages...then plugged it all into Excel...geek side definately not showing through today!)

used 8,864 minutes
703 PTSN calls
346 were incoming calls
349 real outgoing PTSN calls in Feb.
346 incoming calls total 4,162 minutes
total outgoing minutes was 4,700.

So far for March, we're at 6,030 minutes.
424 total calls so far
190 incoming for 915 minutes
232 outgoing calls for 5,115 minutes

Even though they're supposedly going to mark my account to state I'm a legit residental user, I still worry of the 'what if's'. What if there's a change in management or head office and wonder what's the deal and remove the mark in my account? We'll be at square one. I'll continue to be timid.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12977245 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 18:18:32 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12976605 Trimline :

said by laserjobs

:

of residential plans being used for business purposes, we require thatusage be contained below 3000-4000 a month.

Laser:

There's a lot of fudge factor here - 1,000 minutes! P8 really needs to define what the acceptable "unlimited" word means.

What I see here is P8 will knock on the doors of the 4,000 per month users, then move down to the 3,000 per minute users.
--
FWD#537129]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12976605 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 17:08:04 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12976304 Daviey :

said by Medic63

:

I know this thread is loooong already, but....

I emailed the P8 sales team and asked about the Freedom Unlimited plan and whether or not is was really unlimited. This is the response I got, from "Angelique" at Packet8;

Hello,

Thank you for contacting our Packet8 Support team.

Our Freedom unlimited plan consists of unlimited local and long
distance calling to US and Canada. However due to some customer abuse
of residential plans being used for business purposes, we require that
usage be contained below 3000-4000 a month. We will research your
account if you have excessive usage and will require you to upgrade
your plan to a business plan.

If you have any other concerns, please feel free to contact us.

Packet8 Support
1(888)898-8733

So it seems that they have a different definition of "unlimited" than the people at Webster's! ;)

Ok, if this is correct, and I would prefer to have it from someone in management to be certain, then I would agree that there is a problem here. I have no problem with P8 using high usage as a flag to check your account further for possible business usage, but making it a hard limit would indeed seem to violate their advertising. I find it strange that I have never been contacted concerning usage if this is correct - maybe I will be.

Again, it hinges on whether this is a hard limit they are placing on the account. I'm going to check with P8 for my own piece of mind on this and will add my reply to the others.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12976304 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:41:48 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12976301 laserjobs : Here is another inquiry I made personally about Packet8's Unlimited Plan to add to the thread. It looks like SLW is off the hook but not anyone else.

Hello,

Thank you for contacting our Packet8 Support team.

Our Freedom unlimited plan consists of unlimited local and long
distance calling to US and Canada. However due to some customer abuse
of residential plans being used for business purposes, we require that
usage be contained below 3000-4000 a month. We will research your
account if you have excessive usage and will require you to upgrade
your plan to a business plan.

If you have any other concerns, please feel free to contact us.

Packet8 Support
1(888)898-8733]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12976301 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:41:40 EDT Re: Off Topic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12976268 WhyADuck : voiplover

, first of all, laserjobs

quoted you precisely, word for word and character for character. Second, I assume you must not have started reading this thread from the beginning because I am 99% sure I recall SLW posting that original e-mail (or at least the portion of it quoted a few messages earlier) back near the start of this thread, might even have been in the very first post.

Third, I doubt that anyone here has a problem with people using P8. The problem many of us have is that we want all VoIP companies to be honest in their advertising, so that consumers can make fair comparisons, without making a choice based on misleading advertising and promises that will not be fulfilled (or will only be fulfilled if the customer makes it a big enough issue). Sure, SLW1

may have had her problem resolved (we hope), but are there others in the same situation?

What really troubles me now is that it appears that at least two different people have contacted P8 since this thread started, to inquire about the "unlimited" plan, and have received responses that still call into question whether the plan is really unlimited. And I'm pretty sure that they only asked because they happened to stumble across this thread. What about the people who have no idea that BroadbandReports exists, that see P8's advertising or web site and believe they really are going to get unlimited service? Who do they turn to if P8 sends them a letter similar to the one SLW received?

Some of you may have seen the story this morning about how the Texas Attorney General is suing Vonage. While that is a different issue for a different thread (and please don't take my mention of this lawsuit as implying that I think it has any validity), it does show that VoIP is on the radar of some AG's (at least one, anyway), and it might behoove P8 to think about making their position on unlimited calling totally unambiguous, along with any limitations of their 911 service (apparently the Texas AG feels that Vonage does not provide sufficient disclosure of the limitations of their 911 service, and what many of us are in effect saying here is that P8 may not be providing sufficient disclosure of how "unlimited" their unlimited service really is).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12976268 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:36:50 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12976264 laserjobs :

said by Daviey

Again my Packet8 fluffer the quote was copied word for word from your post, when did they offer her an option?

Try to play nice, if not because it's the decent thing then because it's the forum rule ;).

Damn, there goes my fun :D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12976264 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:36:12 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12976240 Daviey :

Again my Packet8 fluffer the quote was copied word for word from your post, when did they offer her an option?

Try to play nice, if not because it's the decent thing then because it's the forum rule ;).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12976240 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:34:17 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12976127 voiplover : Mboy, you are right. And I plan to edit that 'may' out of my post. It was a mistake that I made, but I had no intent of implying that they gave her any choices.
Thank you.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12976127 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:23:51 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12975943 mboy : Actually voiplover, you day say in your post that P8 MAy have to have them switch, when in fact, several pages ago, she noted that effective 4/1, they were being switched.

So laserjobs does have a valid point. No bias here as I know neither one of you.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12975943 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:06:45 EDT Re: Off Topic http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12975888 voiplover : I never said that they gave her a choice. She just posted the original email after I had already posted. So I had no way of knowing. The only choice I did see something about adding a virtual # to gain more 'Unlimited' minutes but that is a joke...
The problem is simply you trying to read something into my post that doesn't exist. You have a problem with people using P8, and it is your problem. I would have posted the same whether it was about P8, Vonage or Lingo.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12975888 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:59:40 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12975496 laserjobs :

said by voiplover

said by laserjobs

said by voiplover

:

3. They notified SLW that they are investigating her account for possible improper business use and told her that they may have to bump her account to a business account.

When did they give her a choice? As I remember she had to hunt Packet 8 down so she didn't get her plan changed automatically.

What? a misquote already? :D
Sorry Lajobs, I think that you just read something into what I wrote that isn't there. Now how could that happen here on BBR? :D

Again my Packet8 fluffer the quote was copied word for word from your post, when did they offer her an option?

"This email is in regard to the usage on your Packet8 account. According to our records, you are using minutes that exceed what we deem to constitute personal residential usage. In accordance with our terms and conditions, 8x8 will be switching you to the Business 2000 plan as of April 1, 2005. Please see section 10 of the terms and conditions included below, addresses excessive usage of the
Packet8 service.

Please contact us to update your Packet8 account or notify us of your desire to terminate service effective April 1 2005. If you do not contact us you will automatically be converted to the Business 2000 Plan effective April 1 2005."

I don't see the 'may have to change' they were just going to do it with now questions asked.
On Packet8's behalf they did send an email.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12975496 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:21:29 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12975460 SLW1 : Just to clear up what my original choices were, here's the original email I received (This is the first communication I ever received regarding any usage issues).

quote:
This email is in regard to the usage on your Packet8 account. According to our records, you are using minutes that exceed what we deem to constitute personal residential usage. In accordance with our terms and conditions, 8x8 will be switching you to the Business 2000 plan as of April 1, 2005. Please see section 10 of the terms and conditions included below, addresses excessive usage of the
Packet8 service.

Please contact us to update your Packet8 account or notify us of your desire to terminate service effective April 1 2005. If you do not contact us you will automatically be converted to the Business 2000 Plan effective April 1 2005.

According to the verbage in this email, we had two options: convert to Business 2000 or leave (no where did it state that we'd also have to pay the disconnection fee).

Yeah, they need to weed out the telemarketers. But if they did better investigation, they would have noticed a majority of the calls going to the same number. We also would have liked to have been notified in better terms. It didn't have to come through so threatening (you're switching to B2000 or you can leave).

I really hope that they do some clarifications of their TOS for potential customers. Something like, 'your account may be investigated periodically if your usage exceeds x,xxx minutes. This must be done to ensure residental end users are not using the service for business/telemarketing purposes.']]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12975460 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:17:00 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12975336 voiplover : I edited out 'may'. Oops]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12975336 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:04:38 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12975333 Medic63 : I know this thread is loooong already, but....

I emailed the P8 sales team and asked about the Freedom Unlimited plan and whether or not is was really unlimited. This is the response I got, from "Angelique" at Packet8;

Hello,

Thank you for contacting our Packet8 Support team.

Our Freedom unlimited plan consists of unlimited local and long
distance calling to US and Canada. However due to some customer abuse
of residential plans being used for business purposes, we require that
usage be contained below 3000-4000 a month. We will research your
account if you have excessive usage and will require you to upgrade
your plan to a business plan.

If you have any other concerns, please feel free to contact us.

Packet8 Support
1(888)898-8733

So it seems that they have a different definition of "unlimited" than the people at Webster's! ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12975333 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:04:27 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12975294 laserjobs :

said by voiplover

:

3. They notified SLW that they are investigating her account for possible improper business use and told her that they may have to bump her account to a business account.

When did they give her a choice? As I remember she had to hunt Packet 8 down so she didn't get her plan changed automatically. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12975294 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:00:20 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12975251 voiplover : This has almost turned into a witch hunt against P8. :uhh:
The facts:
1. SLW signed up and used P8's freedom unlimited residential plan. She used ~8500 minutes the 1st month.
2. At somewhere around 3k to 5k P8 will investigate your account for improper telemarketing use patterns.
3. They notified SLW that they are investigating her account for possible improper business use and told her that they have to bump her account to a business account.
4. SLW did the right thing and followed through to justify her account as a residential account. Meanwhile she became a member on BBR and hopefully found the support here helpful.
5. P8, whom is continually being ripped off by hit and run telemarketers w/auto dialers, took 2 or 3 business days to say 'no problem.' I would have probably said it differently but that sounds pretty simple.
6. SLW now doesn't have to worry about the term unlimited any more unless she plans to do any telemarketing over her P8 line. In the meantime she did find out that she has choices like Lingo for almost the same price.
What I learned from this useful thread:
1. Packet8 is trying to weed out and stop telemarketers from raising the expense of the residential plan.
2. Packet8 is spending a lot of time to verify the actual usage.
3. How to deal with them if we run into the same problem.
Patience is blis...
A note to SLW: Whatever you decide to do, I hope that it works out for you and your family, and please keep us posted.
Thank you. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12975251 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:54:28 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12975219 SLW1 : Busy morning/afternoon. I did get a response to the clarification question.

quote:
That 6,000 mintes is fine.
I also suggest to some other customer to get another line for 20.55 then
they can split the usage!
Packet8 has a new DTA 410 that is one boxe but two lines. You can check
this out on our website.
Hope this clarifies it.

He's trying to plug the DTA 410...have issues with the $75+$29.95 on that!

I've spoken with an Associated Press reporter, who found me through this thread. He spoke with P8's CEO, whom was already informed of this issue. I was told that we do not need to worry about our usage in the future and our account has been noted as such. I am waiting for that in writing.

I also went ahead and broke down our usage for Feb...edited to correct amounts (had a severe d'oh moment and left out two pages...then plugged it all into Excel...geek side definately not showing through today!)

used 8,864 minutes
703 PTSN calls
346 were incoming calls
349 real outgoing PTSN calls in Feb.
346 incoming calls total 4,162 minutes
total outgoing minutes was 4,700.

So far for March, we're at 6,030 minutes.
424 total calls so far
190 incoming for 915 minutes
232 outgoing calls for 5,115 minutes]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12975219 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:51:34 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12973702 budone : Hey there, that was the second question I asked of George Joseph when I replied.

Check your on another question]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12973702 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:52:13 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12973461 SLW1 : That needs to be in writing somewhere...how are potential customers supposed to know that "Normal Residental Usage" is 4,000 minutes or below? The product description should read 'Unlimited up to 4,000 minutes' or something like that. I would have taken it as a limited plan and gone elsewhere.

Someone mentioned somewhere in these 11 pages that I shouldn't expect to get something for free (or something like that). I wasn't. Was just trying to get what was advertised to me. I pay for my service just like everyone else does.

I almost took the "No problem" comment as stop bugging me lady. It's 5:00 and I'm leaving.

Vonage does not numbers available in this area. My guess is that they will as soon as we go somewhere else. Lingo did as soon as we went with P8. The number that we do have is not local to us, but it's for the town where we do most of our business and have several aquaitences. Husband is able to call from work without having to worry about getting hounded about any long distance.

One already has a cell phone (it's our leash). Now, another one is asking for one.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12973461 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:18:12 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12973305 harryhoudini : Guys, I have a very different view on the “no problem” response. To me, it is so simple, it implies the respondent did not bother to read or research the sender’s request. They could be ignorant as to Packet8 limit on the Unlimited plan. While SLW’s took careful caution to write an e-mail and express her concern, it looks like the Packet8 representative took it as just another e-mail in their daily quota.

I only say this because I myself manage an e-mail correspondence team and although we try our best to hire the right people, this is not always the case. Some times my reps reply with some of the most embarrassing responses. Other times they frustrated people because it is evident they did not read the e-mail or where not up to date on our TOS. I also don’t see how a company which is focused in customer service would send a two word response. No matter what, you have to fluff it up. Always include a salutation, ending and leave contact information. Maybe I could be wrong, but that is my interpretation. Unless she gets some long winded e-mail apologizing over the confusion and explaining that her plan will go unchanged, I don’t believe this is over just yet.

What I would do is send an e-mail again and reference the thread here. That is the only way I got AT&T CallVantage to finally solve my problem after sending 6-7 e-mails and 4 phone calls. Once I linked to the review I gave them and threatened with writing to the Better Banking Bureau, did they help me. I even ended up getting three free months out of the deal. Funny thing is my initial request was to have one free month over a billing screw up.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12973305 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:58:47 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12973200 laserjobs :

said by budone

:

To add to the discussion, I thought, 'What the hey?' so I wrote the sales department this weekend. Asked if their unlimited is unlimited. Here is the reply, it is from George Joseph

Hello,

Thank you for contacting the Packet8 support team.

As long as you do not go over 4000 minutes per month.

I deleted the rest as it is just the TOS we all have seen already.

I did reply with another question and will wait to see if they respond to it.

So it looks like the official Packet8 unlimited (using the term loosely) plan is 4000 Minutes. Great now we can change the definition in the dictionary.

Unlimited - un�lim�it�ed
adj.

1. Having no restrictions or controls before 4000 minutes: an up to 4000 minute travel ticket.
2. Having or seeming to have no boundaries up to 4000 minutes; 4000 minutes: a 4000 minute horizon.
3. Without qualification or exception up to 4000 minutes; absolute 4000 minutes: unlimited up to 4000 minute self-confidence.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12973200 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:47:23 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12973195 fire100 : What doesn't make sense in this thread, is most businesses operate 8-5, your kids generally are not home and on the phone until sometime around 3-12 time frame.

Does Packet 8 really not know how to read time? Sow could they say you are using it for business, when your kids are using the phone during the evening?
--
Weather Forums]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12973195 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:46:51 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12973173 budone : You have that right.

When my kids were growing up we had Belding, MI mailing address and they went to Belding schools. However we lived in Kent County and ALL our calls to Belding, where their friends lived were LD. UGH.

This is why most HSI providers have gone from using Unlimited in their ads.

Cant wait to hear the outcome of this thread.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12973173 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:44:09 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12973131 fire100 :

said by budone

As a teenager myself, I remember talking to GF's 5-6 hours a night on the nights I could not go over to their house.

I think they need to change their front page from unlimited to 4000 minutes per month.

5-6 hours a night on the phone is not that large for houses with kids, that amounts to about 10,000 minutes per month.
--
Weather Forums]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12973131 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:38:49 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12973036 budone : To add to the discussion, I thought, 'What the hey?' so I wrote the sales department this weekend. Asked if their unlimited is unlimited. Here is the reply, it is from George Joseph

Hello,

Thank you for contacting the Packet8 support team.

As long as you do not go over 4000 minutes per month.

I deleted the rest as it is just the TOS we all have seen already.

I did reply with another question and will wait to see if they respond to it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12973036 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:25:00 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12972690 Daviey :

said by SLW1

:

I emaied them this:

quote:
As mentioned in previous emails, we will be using anywhere between 6,000 and 9,000 minutes a month. I don't think you'll find it below 4,000 minutes. To re-emphasize, we're not a business, just a family with teenagers who was looking for an unlimited calling plan.

and got this back...

quote:
No problem

Call me silly, but what is No problem supposed to mean? I think they're trying to stay as generic as possible without backing into a wall.

I would take it to mean that they are reasonably sure you are who you say you are (not a business) and there is no problem with your usage. All that without a lawsuit or letter to the AG, see how that works? I'm very glad you got it settled in your favor - now good luck when they all want cell phones!

(edited to include quote)

David]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12972690 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 09:26:08 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12972155 Sly : Don't bring politics into this forum. Bush is not limiting lawsuits, only saying that if someone is misled by say a VoIP company, then they have no right to sue them for 12 billion dollars. That is extreme and frivolous.

I agree that Packet8 is wrong in this case. They advertise "unlimited" and by their TOS they make it clear that this is void if a person uses it for non-residential use. This is clearly a case of residential use and so there is nothing in the TOS that states that P8 has the right to move them to a business plan. If it were a business, then yes... This is no business and P8 is exploiting a loophole in their own TOS to allow this to happen.

I am getting disgusted with their attitude. If you want to pinch pennies, then you do it from the top. You don't punish your customers for management's dumb mistakes. This just offends the customers and drives away the source of their income. Packet8 needs to learn that word of mouth is the most powerful advertising they could ever have. I have quit trying for them. There's no point. I have referred probably 15 different people for Packet8 service and do you know how much money I have gotten from Packet8 for my service to them??? NOTHING!:mad:

I have no problems with the actual phone. I love it. But I will leave a company in a heartbeat if I see that their attitude is not right. I will not support an "ungodly" organization with my money.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12972155 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 07:01:43 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12971932 myerlaw :

said by RadioDoc

said by laserjobs

:

What entity legally protects Americans over this issue?

Federal Trade Commission (FTC) and state Attorney General's offices, mostly. This is unregulated service so the FCC isn't much involved except for compiling records for later use in possible rulemakings.

Who protects you? Only lawyers,..., and that is why Korporate America is trying to do away with us. They will keep doing this until they are hit with a Class Action lawsuit funded by some lawyer or law firm, and then, and only then, will they stop this misleading advertising. Remember this the next time that Lawyer Bashing Bush bashes lawyers or someone tries to regulate your financial relationship with lawyers. They don't want you to sue them for stuff like this. Until then (i.e., until a lawsuit is filed against them), at least until they find a way of getting rid of us pesky lawyers who sue for this false advertising, buyer beware...of everything.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12971932 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 04:57:26 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12971851 myerlaw : While 8,500 seems like an unbelievable number, it only means that you are on the phone 20% of the time. Approximately 43,200 minutes per month (60 minutes per hour x 24 hours per day x 30 days per month).
Notwithstanding, the apparent misleading nature of calling it an Unlimited Plan, would you not be better off with TWO (2) independent phone lines and numbers? With the virtual numbers suggested to you, you still only have one line.
Does P8's adapter allow two lines? I know Vonage's does, because that is what I use. I have three lines and numbers. A business number with Business Unlimited Service, which comes with a free fax line (up to 500 minutes use on fax), as well as a separate adapter for my personal line on the 500 minute program.
Even if your adapter does not allow two lines, you should be able to have two (2) adapters like I do on Vonage. I use one adapter for business and other personal, which also, I suppose keeps the "tax man" happy.
Only drawback of the two lines for a busy home such as yours, is you need enough bandwidth for both lines at the same time. I think Vonage uses 90kpbs (unless you use the bandwidth saver, and it would then be less) per line, so if it is like Vonage, you should I believe have 180kbps if you expect to be on both lines at once.
If you have enough bandwidth, make your VoIP provider and your kids happy and have two lines. Actually, you could get a second line with Vonage and keep your Packet8 and compare the two. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12971851 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 03:58:22 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12971787 nsumner : I take the no problem to mean a person capable or reading and replying to a message rather then just sending back form letters that don't address your messages has decided to "okay" this to minimize the bad publicity.

However, if I were you I would use whatever grace time I basically get from P8 to switch. You don't want to deal with this every month (which may be automated on their end). As well you don't want to one month use 10,001 minutes and be told but you said you would be under 10,000 minutes so...

Of course ultimately the decision is yours.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12971787 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 03:26:10 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12971493 rfnut :

said by SLW1

...snip.....I did email P8, but of course from what I've read out here, it will be a cold day in .... before I'll get a response.

HELP!!!

Sorry for the novel....

Sherry

Looks like you got a response. I do not think there is anyting wrong with a company enforcing their rules regarding residential vs. commercial use. The only way they can hypothesize commercial use is by "excessive" minutes, compared to an average residential account. Of course, anyone knows that a home with at least one teenager qualifies as a non-average account, for phone usage.
I have 4 "teens" here at home and all girls. I also have a cell phone ( it is the only phone I can use, unless it is 3 in teh morning.). I am glad they seem to be working with you to keep your service as-is. You must admit it is unusual for a family to use that many hours. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12971493 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 01:46:40 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12971249 TheGhost :

said by haas29:

Here is how Lingo shows usage inside of your account.

Current Monthly Usage Summary
Service ID ISXXXXXXX

In plan minutes used: 238
In plan minutes remaining: 44762
Out of plan spent: $0.00

OH NO - they are limited by the number of minutes in a month!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12971249 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 01:01:30 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12971238 TheGhost :

said by Jay Brooks:

I feel P8 is being fair. They have costs and and need to profit on the service that they provide. It appears that you are trying to "game" the system which is something that all carriers whether TDM, cellular or now VoIP will continually face. Why do you think this high amount of usage should be free?

I don't think the poster believes the service is free, she is paying for it. P8 decided to advertise and sell the person UNLIMITED RESIDENTIAL service. They do not say "except for families with teenagers" or anything like that. They are now trying to change the rules when it suits them. I am sure they are not giving a rebate to the user who is only using 200-300 minutes.

Another poster gave the example of a buffet restaurant which seems to apply here. P8 is entitled to a profit, they just have to earn it honestly. Either advertise as a 5000 minute plan, or price accordingly for your average residential user.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12971238 Tue, 22 Mar 2005 01:00:02 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12970763 WhyADuck : I really hope "no problem" means that they have decided that your residential usage is okay. If so I'm glad they decided to do the right thing and honor their advertising, but wish that you might have been able to get things resolved with a bit less effort and stress. It seems to me that the first contact with a customer in a situation like this ought to be a request for an explanation of the high usage, not just a notice that the customer will be summarily switched to another plan. Let's hope that in the future these types of situations will be handled in a better way.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12970763 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 23:42:49 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12970490 lmjh7065 : Thanks Packet8 for doing the right thing and trying to keep a BBR forum member and customer satisfied.

Admittedly I had doubts, but I should have remembered that you didn't earn the BBR Silver Star by not doing the right thing overall.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12970490 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 23:07:40 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12969625 usa2k : Thanks Packet8 for helping keep this Forum at #2 position :)

1121 people post here
This is the 2nd most popular forum.
3463 members have marked this forum as their favorite]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12969625 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 21:28:39 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12969542 voiplover :

said by SLW1

:

I emaied them this:

quote:
As mentioned in previous emails, we will be using anywhere between 6,000 and 9,000 minutes a month. I don't think you'll find it below 4,000 minutes. To re-emphasize, we're not a business, just a family with teenagers who was looking for an unlimited calling plan.

and got this back...

quote:
No problem

Call me silly, but what is No problem supposed to mean? I think they're trying to stay as generic as possible without backing into a wall.

It should mean that they investigated the usage of your account and it didn't fit the image of a telemarketer.
Most of the threads that have shown up on BBR about this issue are from telemarketers that would use 8000 minutes in 7000 calls. I guess that your teenagers can use 8000 minutest in under 100 calls. ;)
Getting a 'No problem' from Packet8 in 2 business day was quicker than I expected.
Congrads and good luck. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12969542 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 21:19:42 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12969487 sheik28 :

said by SLW1

:

I emaied them this:

quote:
As mentioned in previous emails, we will be using anywhere between 6,000 and 9,000 minutes a month. I don't think you'll find it below 4,000 minutes. To re-emphasize, we're not a business, just a family with teenagers who was looking for an unlimited calling plan.

and got this back...

quote:
No problem

Call me silly, but what is No problem supposed to mean? I think they're trying to stay as generic as possible without backing into a wall.

Sounds to me like you sent off the properly worded emails to the proper people.:)

No problem says that they don't see it as unusual in your case to be using that amount of minutes per month and like any smart publicly traded company... They are happy to have you as a customer... on the outside.

As far as a public company goes. Everyone here has been all over P8 for being a scam artist and not living up to their advertising. Unfortunately, I agree with some aspects of this argument. However, many companies are not as ethical as others and that is something that can not be lost sight of. Almost every company would do the same thing if they could, if there weren't customers who stood up to them and said something. Now we don't need to blow this out of proportion and make this a David and Goliath type story. It's not.
I firmly believe that based on the facts provided, P8 thought they were being scammed. I don't blame them. They have a bottom line to protect and that's fair, they aren't in this business because they are nice. Nobody is any business to be nice or make friends. They are here to make money and they have every right to do that. Could they have handled it a little better? Absolutely YES! Will they learn from this? Doubtful.

8x8 has been in business for a long time, since 1987 in one form or another, and has been a publicly traded company since 1997. You don't survive like that scamming people and taking advantage of them ( although some I'm sure could argue that!!).

SLW I hope this saga is over, even though you will be watching your bills for the coming months, and I hope it has come to an acceptable end to you. It must have been very tiring to have to go through this all.

I'm glad to see you have gone premium and hope you continue to enjoy your stay here at BBR. There are so many other forums to take advantage of here. Stick around browse and check out the scenery. You could learn so much!!!
--
There is no such thing as a stupid question, and yes, the camel types. ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12969487 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 21:14:41 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12969129 testQ : Reply back to e-mail,

Do you agree to 8-10K volume of my household calls? (YES/NO)

and keep the e-mail with you for future records.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12969129 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:35:14 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12969109 SLW1 : I emaied them this:

quote:
As mentioned in previous emails, we will be using anywhere between 6,000 and 9,000 minutes a month. I don't think you'll find it below 4,000 minutes. To re-emphasize, we're not a business, just a family with teenagers who was looking for an unlimited calling plan.

and got this back...

quote:
No problem

Call me silly, but what is No problem supposed to mean? I think they're trying to stay as generic as possible without backing into a wall.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12969109 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:32:36 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12969040 lmjh7065 : How can Packet8 use the word "reasonable" and then proceed to ask you to "limit" your "unlimited" usage?

I feel like I'm back on the VoIP2 thread.

Some things are self-evident and do not require proof. It sounds like we are wasting our time with P8 if they want to redefine the words reasonable and unlimited.

If not answering e-mails and not emptying voice mail boxes is any indication of things to come, I predict that next the dial tone/service will cease.

Good luck - you deserve better treatment than you are getting from P8. There may be a VoIP service provider out there that actually wants your business and actually knows how to treat their paying customers. After all, where would P8 be without them? ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12969040 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:25:55 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12968850 IanR : Just make sure you read the TOS on the snip operation, or you may find that it is just possible 0.01% chance of another teenager sprouting forth to use your future minutes in an "unreasonable" manner;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12968850 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:06:14 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12968838 sheureka : I suspect that even if P8 is not making a profit on OP, it all averages out. I'm a P8 subscriber who uses fewer than 500 minutes a month. And I suspect I'm an average user.

The way I read the TOS OP is not in violation. The burden of proof is always on the party who writes the language and the language must be liberally interpreted in favor of the second party. Under those rules OP is not in violation of the TOS (unless there is something going on that OP is not telling us). - sheureka]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12968838 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:04:07 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12968647 SLW1 : Got a response to the last email...

quote:
That is fine.
We are just trying to get it lower about 4 k in the next month. Most Business run around 4 , 000 mintutes and above.

We are flexible.

This to me still means they are limiting their unlimited plan. Good luck in getting it below that. I feel we shouldn't have to sit and time everyone's calls...this is why we tried going this route. I guess I selected the wrong provider.:hmm:]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12968647 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:43:42 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12968460 usa2k :

said by Network Guy

:

...Tis why I'm cutting my parenthood losses ...

More information than I needed :hmm:]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12968460 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:24:51 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12968341 Network Guy :

said by SLW1

:

For some stupid reason, I thought having teenagers would be easy...I'm now getting smacked upside the head (and pocketbook) for saying that now.

Tis why I'm cutting my parenthood losses at one kid. :D

Vasectomy for me is scheduled two weeks from now. Ball snippage at age 25. Woopee!!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12968341 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:09:36 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12968288 SLW1 : I guess you have to send 'I'm going to turn you in' emails to get a response from someone. That email mentioned going to the AG, BBB & FTC as well as the bad review I've given them out here. Here's one I got--with the misspellings (from the Kevin Reid who's emails were bouncing on friday):

quote:
At this time Packet8 will keep your Plan on Freedom Unlimited and monitor the usage. Thank you for highlichting the issues below. Packet8 appreciates you working with us on this situation and look forward to continued service.

Please let me know if you have any other concerns

Then I sent an email back asking what he meant by 'monitor the usage'. Here's the next response...

quote:
Next month we will review the account again and look at minute usage.

I replied to that still asking what's going to happen next month seeing as we're already over 5,500 minutes this month. Waiting a response.

I did email sales at Lingo to ask several questions. I want to make sure we don't get screwed again. I just want it in writing to make sure they can handle us.:D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12968288 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:03:50 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12968284 docchat :

said by SLW1

:

Ok, this is too funny...10 minutes after I sent the email, I got a response to Friday's...which says the same thing as the previous two.

Dear customer,
Please note that Packet8 wants to bring your attention to the terms
and conditions, where it speaks about the Reasonable Residential
Usage. You have many options to include limiting your usage, buying a
second line or going onto the Business 2000 plan. Please let us
explore these options.

I think they forgot an option...cancel and move to another VOIP provider.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12968284 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:02:47 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12967777 WhyADuck :

said by dipswich

:

BellSouth "Unlimited" Plan terms and conditions:

"For the purposes of this plan, usage of more than 5,000 minutes per month shall be considered not to be typical residential usage."

Even BellSouth won't offer unlimited long distance at a flat rate. At least they tell you up front, albeit buried in the fine print.

If the fine print is included in the advertising, then it may be legal even if not very ethical. Although, various states have differing laws on how "fine" the print may be. I have heard that some states actually say that any fine print in advertising must be at least a certain font size, but can't immediately point to any specific laws covering that.

But in the case we are talking about, there's not even an asterisk next to P8's price with some fine print lower on the same page. The modifying language, which is pretty ambiguous to start with, is buried in the ToS.

said by dipswich

:

If I were a betting man, I'd say that Packet8 would let SLW go, even waiving the disconnection fee. As long as the reason isn't race, creed, religion, sex, age, disability, etc. then Packet8 can really just refuse service, although doing so looks really bad.

At this point, I suspect they would be more than happy to have her just walk away. But that still doesn't address the underlying problem of their advertising.

As for your point about "As long as the reason isn't race, creed, religion, sex, age, disability, etc.", I wouldn't be so sure about that, and indeed the law on that may vary depending on jurisdiction. I'm sure a lot of supermarkets would like to rid themselves of the customers that only walk in and buy the advertised "loss leaders" and nothing else. Sometimes you will hear a store manager tell a difficult customer, "we'd prefer that you take your business elsewhere." Well, they might indeed prefer that, but (as someone who works in retail recently explained to me) at least in the state where I live, they had better not try to physically stop a customer from entering the store or they can be sued, which is exactly why they express it in those words (in theory they can't be sued for expressing a preference, even if the customer misinterprets it as a command).

said by dipswich

:

Fighting this, while morally and ethically a proper reaction (P8 indeed plasters "unlimited" everywhere they can), isn't going to accomplish anything. Something isn't too good to be true? Shocking!

I really get the feeling that some posters in this thread have the entirely wrong idea about this. Nobody suggested that the customer should file a lawsuit, or go to court, or take more time than the ten to twenty minutes it takes to write out a complaint to the state Attorney General, with a copy to the FTC and/or FCC (probably the FTC would be the better choice at this point in time). If someone has already posted their grievance here, their work is already half done! Usually they can just take what they posted, clean it up a little (perhaps adding some specific information that they would not want to reveal to everyone in the forum, such as account information), and send it to the AG's office.

If the AG contacts a company and the company decides it's in their best interest to back down on their original decision, the next thing the customer hears may be a communication from the company and/or the AG's office saying that the problem has been resolved - in effect, the customer won. If a company is recalcitrant, then the AG's office often will decide to pursue it further and in rare cases may even file a lawsuit (that sometimes happens if they have received multiple complaints), but the AG's office does all the work on that. At worst the customer might be asked to send a copy of a bill or an e-mail or something like that - it is VERY rate for a customer to be asked to participate in a court case and usually that is voluntary (by that time the AG's office probably has dozens, if not hundreds of complaints, and it's not that hard to find one or two people who are so upset that they WANT to testify against the company, and even volunteer to do so).

Now having said all that, BellSouth may be kind of a special case because they are a regulated industry. Which means that first of all, their tariffs actually take precedence over any advertising, although state regulators can (and do) crack down on misleading advertising. And second, unless their "unlimited" service is considered an unregulated offering, any complaints related to it would almost certainly have to be filed with the state public utility commission, at least to begin with. It's just a different situation from a legal standpoint and the rules that would apply to an unregulated industry may be applied somewhat differently to a regulated industry (sometimes there is more protection for the consumer, sometimes less). ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12967777 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:55:16 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12967496 IanR : Call under you reach intelligent life forms.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12967496 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:21:29 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12967437 WhyADuck :

said by IanR

:

WADuck,

You are trying to use P8 to change the entire world of advertizing. As I've tried to point out P8 is one of an industry in their advertizing. But you won't accept that.

That is correct, I won't accept that, because first of all it's not true. These things are taken on a case-by-case basis. Very often a company can get away with scamming customers for months or years if no one bothers to bring it to the attention of the appropriate consumer protection agencies. Nobody can change the entire world of "advertizing" all at once, but a state or federal agency can force one company at a time to comply with the appropriate consumer protection and truth-in-advertising laws, and after they do that a few times other companies start to understand what is or is not acceptable, and what will get them fined or censured. But they (the consumer protection agencies) generally won't do anything if they don't receive at least one complaint.

said by IanR

:

As to the thread's topic. The Lady has to come to a solution. That's up to her and P8 to resolve.

That's funny, you must be reading a different thread than the rest of us are, because as I write this it looks as though she's still receiving the same canned response from P8. Maybe my definition of "solution" is different from yours, but from what she's saying it looks like the problem still exists and she's still looking for some sort of resolution. A canned response that in effect says we have no intention of delivering what we advertised is certainly not a solution!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12967437 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:14:58 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12967410 IanR : No offense taken at all:)

As dipswitch suggests the need is for SLW to get the solution she needs to move forward. Trying to change the world won't happen in time for any of us.

Me I hate the use of "unlimited", but tht entire industry seems to use it exactly the same way not just P8. If SLW can find a way to use such minutes pm great.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12967410 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:12:29 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12967125 dipswich : BellSouth "Unlimited" Plan terms and conditions:

"For the purposes of this plan, usage of more than 5,000 minutes per month shall be considered not to be typical residential usage."

Even BellSouth won't offer unlimited long distance at a flat rate. At least they tell you up front, albeit buried in the fine print.

If I were a betting man, I'd say that Packet8 would let SLW go, even waiving the disconnection fee. As long as the reason isn't race, creed, religion, sex, age, disability, etc. then Packet8 can really just refuse service, although doing so looks really bad.

Fighting this, while morally and ethically a proper reaction (P8 indeed plasters "unlimited" everywhere they can), isn't going to accomplish anything. Something isn't too good to be true? Shocking!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12967125 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:40:59 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12967005 testQ : IandR,
I am not trying to offend you,but,I thought that SLW, is the one having troubles with her P8 service and asking for help in this forum and I haven't seen anywhere P8 was asking for help and I also strongly think these forums are for consumers to get some help.

Thanks,
TestQ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12967005 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:26:54 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12966944 IanR : Quote
P.S. Perhaps you feel so strongly about this that you feel you have to rush to post, but it only takes a few seconds more to use the spell check function before you send your comments.
Unquote

Getting a bit petty and off topic! And yes I don't have all day to hang on this thread and yes quite often I don't spell check.

WADuck,

You are trying to use P8 to change the entire world of advertizing. As I've tried to point out P8 is one of an industry in their advertizing. But you won't accept that. As to the thread's topic. The Lady has to come to a solution. That's up to her and P8 to resolve.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12966944 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:18:35 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12966882 SLW1 : Ok, this is too funny...10 minutes after I sent the email, I got a response to Friday's...which says the same thing as the previous two.

Dear customer,
Please note that Packet8 wants to bring your attention to the terms
and conditions, where it speaks about the Reasonable Residential
Usage. You have many options to include limiting your usage, buying a
second line or going onto the Business 2000 plan. Please let us
explore these options.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12966882 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:11:10 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12966866 SLW1 : I'm still here and waiting for P8. Was gone all day yesterday and had errands today.

Since it's 3pm here in CST, I figured they had plenty of time to 'find' a solution. So, the you have one option email was sent, which was cc'd to several individuals some of the folks out here gave me addresses for. Tried CEO and President@'s just to see if they existed. Those bounced back.

We'll see what their response is.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12966866 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:08:32 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12966804 WhyADuck :

said by IanR

:

Whether we as consumers like it or not those words have to be read in co-ordination with the words included in the TOS. Which has all the usual words like "reasonable usage" etc. and rights for P8 to change the service etc.
It's like those car lease ads on TV with the audio over "all offers are contingent upon........".

Again I strongly disagree. The word unlimited has a very specific meaning. If it were an ambiguous word or phrase, like "a real bargain compared to other services", you would be correct - basically if the wording is ambiguous then the ToS can clarify the offer. But when a word with a very specific and clear meaning is used, then the fine print cannot take away what the large print promises.

As another poster pointed out here, when there is an ambiguity in a legal contract (and in a court, the advertising often IS considered part of the contract, especially in consumer matters), the ambiguity is usually resolved in such a way as to favor the person who did not participate in the creation of the contract (the consumer).

The car lease ads are a different matter because there are people who really do get the advertised price. Although I do believe that if you were to do some digging, you would find that those ads have been the subject of complaints as well. Don't be surprised if there is some action taken to reform the car leasing business, if they don't clean up their own house.

said by IanR

:

In the incident under discussion clearly P8 have recongnised consistent usage to be well above the norm in this account. In a thread a year ago, another VoIP Principal notes, that on averagre consumers use around 1K minutes per mmonth. Hence one should expect comment when using 8.5K pm on a consistent basis. It's now purely up to this consumer in this case to discuss her situation with P8, arrive at a reasonable solution and/or move on to another provider and risk the same thing happening.... or not, as some beleieve.

I just love the way that you keep advocating essentially one solution (which would not force the company to change their advertising OR the way they deal with their customers). No, the customer does have more options than what you are offering, and one of those options is to bring this to the attention of state and/or federal authorities and/or other consumer protection agencies. Maybe you would put on blinders and pretend these options don't exist (or feel they would not accomplish anything productive) but I, and apparently a number of others on this forum would disagree with you.

P.S. Perhaps you feel so strongly about this that you feel you have to rush to post, but it only takes a few seconds more to use the spell check function before you send your comments.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12966804 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:00:33 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12966610 WhyADuck :

said by Trimline

:

WhyADuck & Other Forum Regulars:

Since the search engine is down for maintenance, citing this person's use of 8,000 minutes per month, what would the actual costs be to P8 assuming the calls were made to a non-P8 account?

With that $ amount in mind, would the BS account still permit a profit margin for P8?

It would be helpful to understand the actual costs.

Please see my message just above this one. Again, profitability is irrelevant to this discussion - if Packet8 cannot make a profit by offering unlimited service, then they should not be using the word unlimited in their advertising. No one is forcing them to offer unlimited service, but if they choose to do so and it is unprofitable, they are just shooting themselves in the foot.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12966610 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:39:05 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12966578 IanR : Whether we as consumers like it or not those words have to be read in co-ordination with the words included in the TOS. Which has all the usual words like "reasonable usage" etc. and rights for P8 to change the service etc.
It's like those car lease ads on TV with the audio over "all offers are contingent upon........".

In the incident under discussion clearly P8 have recongnised consistent usage to be well above the norm in this account. In a thread a year ago, another VoIP Principal notes, that on averagre consumers use around 1K minutes per mmonth. Hence one should expect comment when using 8.5K pm on a consistent basis. It's now purely up to this consumer in this case to discuss her situation with P8, arrive at a reasonable solution and/or move on to another provider and risk the same thing happening.... or not, as some beleieve.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12966578 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:36:09 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12966568 WhyADuck :

said by IanR

Profitability is not an issue - if P8 feels it is not profitable to offer truly unlimited service, nobody is forcing them to do it. But if they choose to advertise an unprofitable service, they still have to honor their advertising.

Suppose you saw a new car being advertised by a car dealer for $12,000. So you hurried on down to the dealer and specifically asked for the $12,000 car but by the time he finished writing up the contract the price was more like $22,000. At that point, most people would say, "But your ad said $12,000!" And if the dealer then said, "What, you really expected me to sell a car for $12,000? That wouldn't be profitable for me!", most people would assume (quite correctly) that they had been a victim of a bait-and-switch scheme. It matters not that maybe the dealer really can't make a profit at the $12,000 price, that was the price he advertised. Nobody twisted his arm and forced him to place an ad offering that price, and if the state gets involved they are not going to be very sympathetic to his claim that he can't make a profit at the price he chose to advertise.

said by IanR

:

Considering legal tactics is not a short, or medium term solution and one may well lose anyway.

For the consumer, you are correct, but nobody suggested that the original poster file a lawsuit. The advice here has been to file a complaint with the appropriate consumer protection agencies, such as the state Attorney General. The state rarely loses in such cases, but even if they do, it doesn't cost the consumer anything.

said by IanR

:

The only answer is to discuss the situation with P8. Be prepared to add perhaps a 2nd P8 line. Or go to another VoIP company and hope the same issues doesn't come up (probably would).

I suppose some people might get upset if I said that you sound for all the world like a representative of P8, so I will just say that I think you are wrong and that you are giving terrible advice. But that is just my opinion, and ultimately it's up to the original poster to choose her course of action.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12966568 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:35:09 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12966486 garys_2k :

said by JTY

:

Just thought of something...

P8 ads don't say Unlimited calling to everyone in US and Canada. They say, "Unlimited U.S. and Canada Calling".

As well, it doesn't say unlimited calling to PSTN lines.

From »www.packet8.net/about/residential.asp

Broadband Phone Service - Residential Plans

Consumers can now enjoy unlimited local and long distance calling by adding Packet8 Broadband Phone Service (VoIP) to their high-speed Internet connections. There are several residential plans from which to choose, starting with Freedom Unlimited.

Phone Service Plans
Plan PSTN Minutes* Packet8 IP Minutes ...
Freedom Unlimited Unlimited Unlimited ...

* International rates apply to all outgoing calls outside of the US (including Alaska and Hawaii) and Canada. To view the entire international rate table, click here.

Sure sounds like there's no limit to me.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12966486 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:27:24 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12966284 JTY : Just thought of something...

P8 ads don't say Unlimited calling to everyone in US and Canada. They say, "Unlimited U.S. and Canada Calling".

As well, it doesn't say unlimited calling to PSTN lines.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12966284 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:03:59 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12966181 laserjobs :

said by IanR

:

I can recall all/most of the top names have had threads.
Earlier on this thread I provided a specific link for AT&T.

That thread is about AT&T's TOS but has AT&T ever changed anyones plan that we know of? All I can find is Packet 8 switching peoples plans. Does anyone know of any other VoIP companies doing this?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12966181 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:50:30 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12966094 IanR : I can recall all/most of the top names have had threads.
Earlier on this thread I provided a specific link for AT&T.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12966094 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:39:19 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12965980 laserjobs :

said by IanR

:

Every VoIP company makes the same types of "unlimited" claims and has similar words to cover themselves in their "TOS" IMHO. Other threads have covered these companies from time to time. If ONLY P8 changes their style of Ad they will probably look to be offering a less valuable product and lose out to their competitors.

I am curious, what other companies have been reported doing this besides Packet8?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12965980 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:24:57 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12965738 voiplover : 8000 minutes made on the business plan makes P8 $. $.035/minute after the 1st 2k would profit any voip provider.
So far it looks like Lingo is the only ~$20/month plan that offers the volume of minutes the subscriber needs in that price range.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12965738 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:52:59 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12965707 IanR : Every VoIP company makes the same types of "unlimited" claims and has similar words to cover themselves in their "TOS" IMHO. Other threads have covered these companies from time to time. If ONLY P8 changes their style of Ad they will probably look to be offering a less valuable product and lose out to their competitors. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12965707 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:48:37 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12965671 Trimline : WhyADuck & Other Forum Regulars:

Since the search engine is down for maintenance, citing this person's use of 8,000 minutes per month, what would the actual costs be to P8 assuming the calls were made to a non-P8 account?

With that $ amount in mind, would the BS account still permit a profit margin for P8?

It would be helpful to understand the actual costs.
--
FWD#537129]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12965671 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:40:49 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12965487 laserjobs :

said by IanR

:

This thread is IMHO well beyond it's "read by date". Few of the participants are actually giving the thread opener the advice she really needs (IMHO) to arrange a suitable final solution to her family's problems. Everyone is caught up be definitions of "unlimited" and "reasonable use" Versus a single line being used consistently for 8,500 minutes LD calling per month for $19.95. (which canot be profitable for a P8 or a Vonage or anyone)

Considering legal tactics is not a short, or medium term solution and one may well lose anyway.

The only answer is to discuss the situation with P8. Be prepared to add perhaps a 2nd P8 line. Or go to another VoIP company and hope the same issues doesn't come up (probably would).

Good luck.

Again this is such an easy solution for Packet8. Change the advertising to what they actually offer or average the loss with low usage customers like other VoIP companies. Packet8 really needs to talk to their lawyers about this before it blows up in their face.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12965487 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:12:21 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12965417 IanR : This thread is IMHO well beyond it's "read by date". Few of the participants are actually giving the thread opener the advice she really needs (IMHO) to arrange a suitable final solution to her family's problems. Everyone is caught up be definitions of "unlimited" and "reasonable use" Versus a single line being used consistently for 8,500 minutes LD calling per month for $19.95. (which canot be profitable for a P8 or a Vonage or anyone)

Considering legal tactics is not a short, or medium term solution and one may well lose anyway.

The only answer is to discuss the situation with P8. Be prepared to add perhaps a 2nd P8 line. Or go to another VoIP company and hope the same issues doesn't come up (probably would).

Good luck.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12965417 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:02:28 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12965288 WhyADuck :

Here's a better question - why should anyone pay any attention to you, seeing as how you're not even a registered user? But since you obviously didn't bother to read all the other posts in this thread, which have already answered your question, the short answer is that the usage should be "free" because the company advertised unlimited service, and therefore that is what they are legally obligated to deliver. Any time they feel that their costs do not permit them to offer true unlimited service, all they have to do is stop using the word "unlimited" in their advertising, but as long as that word is there then ANY amount of residential usage should be included in the base monthly rate (not really "free", the customer is paying the advertised rate!).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12965288 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:41:13 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12965283 voiplover :

Thanks, this looks like a good deal for a subscriber that is on the phone all day talking to pots lines.
I personally can't use those kind of minutes but like the uptime with P8, so I'm happy staying put.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12965283 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:40:49 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12965246 laserjobs :

Do you think they should change their advertising then?

PACKET8 INCLUDED FEATURES
UNLIMITED MINUTES

Designed with both residential and business customers in mind, Packet8 allows anyone with broadband (high-speed) Internet access to use their regular phone to make UNLIMITED calls to anywhere in the U.S. and Canada . Packet8 subscribers get worldwide UNLIMITED In-Network calling to other Packet8 subscribers at no extra charge.

Unlimited un�lim�it�ed
adj.

1. Having no restrictions or controls: an unlimited travel ticket.
2. Having or seeming to have no boundaries; infinite: an unlimited horizon.
3. Without qualification or exception; absolute: unlimited self-confidence.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12965246 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:35:57 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12965214 anon : Here is how Lingo shows usage inside of your account.

Current Monthly Usage Summary
Service ID ISXXXXXXX

In plan minutes used: 238
In plan minutes remaining: 44762
Out of plan spent: $0.00

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12965214 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:31:12 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12965181 anon : I feel P8 is being fair. They have costs and and need to profit on the service that they provide. It appears that you are trying to "game" the system which is something that all carriers whether TDM, cellular or now VoIP will continually face. Why do you think this high amount of usage should be free?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12965181 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:25:52 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12965068 WhyADuck : That story is off topic for this thread, but since you posted it, I will just note that you don't need VoIP to do the sort of Caller ID spoofing mentioned there (and, in fact, most residential VoIP services do not include this option. For example, VoicePulse lets you select your outgoing Caller ID number only from among numbers actually assigned to you, that is, either your primary number or one of your alternate VoicePulse numbers, not just any old number you might make up). This is a case of a reporter not understanding what he's writing about - he probably did a web search and perhaps discovered that the Asterisk PBX could be used to spoof Caller ID, and then read another article about the VoIP capabilities of Asterisk, and somehow a couple neurons fired in his brain and he thought, "Oh, another problem with VoIP." And these days some segments of the press seem to love attacking VoIP the way they loved attacking the Internet in years past.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12965068 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:11:56 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12964685 anon : Train wreck waiting to crash and burn. Oh no, already started:

»story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s···gedin_dc]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12964685 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 11:11:58 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12963524 nsumner : As it has been mentioned this is an old issue being re-hatched. The thing about it is however that P8 is often (at least in recent (last year or so) been the big party often guilty of this. Okay there was of course VOIP2 or whatever they were called they are basically history now however.

P8 has always seemed to more "stictly" enforce a minute cap than anybody else. In addition the billing department doesn't really like to respond to any e-mail that makes them need to actually think and reply to it and not send a form letter.

Broadvoxdirect in these discussion has implied that they truly examine the usage and not just the minutes. Yes at some number of minutes a flag goes up, but that flag only calls for them to by "hand" examine the usage pattern. If it is consistent with residential use (albeit with teenagers at home) they say "well I guess this is one of those accounts we are loosing on, oh well...". That means you should be safe, your usage shoudl be consistent with residential usage.

P8 seems to say go over 3000 minutes and bully for you. We call that business usage and you are done and cooked. Personally I would however ship them back their DTA and inform them you do not accept the business plan. You aren't cancelling. They are no longer willing to provide the service to you. As such there is no disconnect fee. If they charge it dispute it with your CC company. If they actually send it off to a credit collector a simple letter (maybe from a friend who is a lawyer) to them explaining the money isn't owed as they cancelled the service not you should bring a quick end to it (credit companies don't generally like to play games, courts are pretty harsh on them when they try to hit your credit rating without due cause).

I would be very tempted to try Sunrocket. For one thing they are working very hard to keep up a good reputation and if you sent something like this to the press in an area they are advertising in... Well, it is worth it for them from an advertising point of view to keep you happy (and it wouldn't be unreasonable). I have so far found Sunrocket has far better support and customer service then anybody else.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12963524 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 06:58:52 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12962503 RadioDoc :

said by Daviey

said by RadioDoc

:

The onus is on the VoIP company to prove that the customer is in fact a business.

This is incorrect. The TOS of every VoIP provider (not to mention ISP, Web Host, etc) leaves this determination solely up to the provider's descretion. This is well established practice and there is no law restricting it.

Edit: I just noticed that this thread hit the front page of BBR so it's probably going to go downhill from here with out of context responses from lurkers (no offense, I've done it too). I think we have said pretty much everything on this topic and I hope the OP will report back about what happens. Take care.

-D

Well, you're wrong. They have to define it legally and in the context of their advertising. They can't advertise "unlimited" and then not provide the unlimited service regardless of what they put in their TOS. This is basic stuff. There is a pretty entrenched legal theory that in the case of ambiguity a contract is construed against the writer. In this case Packet8's contract is ambiguous as to what "reasonable residential use" is. They outline what they consider business and other prohibited use is, but they do not enumerate three teenagers using the phone six hours a day as one of them. They lose this case on it's face in summary judgement.

This thread has been on the front page since Friday, by the way.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12962503 Mon, 21 Mar 2005 00:27:10 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12962328 Daviey :

said by RadioDoc

:

The onus is on the VoIP company to prove that the customer is in fact a business.

said by WhyADuck

:

[Y]ou may have noticed that no other VoIP company charges their customers a per-minute fee for incoming calls.

Actually »www.teliax.com and »www.livevoip.com charge for incoming calls on a per minute rate on some plans. Teliax for example charges 2 cents a minute on their pay as you go plan.

I am not quite sure what the pricing structure is for VOIP origination. They have to pay Level3 something. Is it on a per DID basis or based on volume. Seems like both based on the pricing structure of these wholesale providers.
--
Area Code & Exchange Lookup ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12962217 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 23:41:19 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12962164 psycdoc : I would aslo reccomend trying quantumvoice. They are very reasonable and their service is fantastic. If you call them and request a specific area code I think they can get it. I would also explain your issues and maybe they will be able to help you.. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12962164 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 23:32:54 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12962039 voiplover : Thanks. I was getting my info from the owner of an answering service that was always wheeling and dealing to get the best rates for his perspective block sizes.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12962039 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 23:15:42 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12961962 WhyADuck : CLEC's receive termination fees on calls from the PSTN (this was actually a scheme engineered by the baby bells to put the CLEC's at a disadvantage, that backfired when the CLEC's started hosting dial-up ISP's and other numbers that receive high volumes of incoming calls from ILEC customers).

In other words, when a traditional telco customer calls a Level3 number (VoIP or otherwise), Level3 receives some fraction of a cent per minute from the traditional telco. Most CLEC's want as much incoming traffic as they can get, and any time they can get more incoming calls it is money in their pocket. Therefore there is no reason P8 would have to reimburse Level3 for that traffic, and you may have noticed that no other VoIP company charges their customers a per-minute fee for incoming calls.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12961962 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 23:03:19 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12961938 shutrbug :

said by Daviey

:

The process as it stands is horrible and will have to change, but I don't see anything illegal about it. No one is advertising one thing and giving another, they are just having a heck of a time coming up with a way to weed out heavy residential users from business abusers. At the very least, there needs to be a well defined warning and appeals process by the provider.

The answer for P8 seems clear to me. Don't advertise it as an unlimited plan. Instead, call it a 3000minute per month plan. But advertising a 3000 minute per month plan as unlimited (there are about 43,000 minutes in a month) is wrong in my mind. It's less than 10% usage of the available minutes in a day. 3000 minutes a month isn't even two hours a day, so I can easily imagine a house full of teenagers going over the limit regularly.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12961938 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 22:59:40 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12961905 kinkygal :

said by Daviey

:

The unlimited vs limited argument is a red herring. What P8 (or Vonage, or whoever) is claiming is business usage. Of the factors they use in determining that, minutes per month is one. How can they know that the OP is a nice lady with a house full of teenagers just calling their friends? And what if someone does purchase a $19.95 line and use 8000 min/mo for business purposes, then tells P8 they are just a house full of teenagers? On the other hand, how does the OP assure them that she really is just a house full of teens and get her phone line like the rest of us? I don't see how this is so black and white. How do they know who is telling the truth?

The process as it stands is horrible and will have to change, but I don't see anything illegal about it. No one is advertising one thing and giving another, they are just having a heck of a time coming up with a way to weed out heavy residential users from business abusers. At the very least, there needs to be a well defined warning and appeals process by the provider.
David

Well said. In a reasonable world P8 would investigate a bit further rather than arbitrarily switching her to the business plan. I suspect they did this to get her attention. I am not defending their actions but it did the trick. Unlimited usage plans subsidize heavy users with light users. I don't see this as a "bait and switch" or something to get litigious about. Packet 8 displays very poor customer service and dispute resolution skills in allowing this to escalate without attempting to resolve it and I understand her wanting to cancel with them. I suspect if she emailed them this thread and gave them a deadline to contact her to work it out in a reasonable way they might and if not then I too would cancel and move on. But don't throw the baby out with the bath water. If they meet your needs otherwise maybe they just need a bit of cage rattling. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12961905 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 22:55:10 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12961814 voiplover : Just wondering; what would lead you to believe that they don't have to reimburse Level3 for incoming termination? Incoming termination has to be done through the DID where outgoing does not.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12961814 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 22:42:19 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12961754 joako :

said by voiplover

:

If the wholesale market is around .004 to .015 termination + the ~$2/month for the DID. So 8.5k = $34 + the price of the DID plus the price of the DTA plus the cost to run P8 and maintain and update the equipment, all on a $20/month plan. What can a provider say???

Because that is the cost of doing business. Some users will use 500 minutes a month and they will make $15 or more, other users will use 20,000 minutes a month and they will loose money. But they are also providing an "unlimited" service, one "without limits" and that is the risk they assume in doing so.

Also keep in mind they do not pay for inbound calls! So yes maybe the OP used 8500 minutes, but maybe of those only 5,000 were outbound?
--
I'm joakimsen and I approve this message. »sveasoft.pifiu.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12961754 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 22:34:25 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12961678 pnh102 :

said by Daviey

:

1. The other person has an opinion that is not the same as mine.
2. Therefore, the other person is wrong.
3. Therefore, they must have another motive for saying these things.
4. Therefore, they must own stock in the company.

Is that it?

You left out the following:

5. Therefore, they must be Hitler!
--
Hey Fast Eddie... you're next!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12961678 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 22:25:13 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12961612 RadioDoc :

said by Daviey

:

On the other hand, how does the OP assure them that she really is just a house full of teens and get her phone line like the rest of us? I don't see how this is so black and white. How do they know who is telling the truth?

The onus is on the VoIP company to prove that the customer is in fact a business. The fact that the calls originate on a residential cable IP, and terminate at residences (probably the same dozen or so if teenagers are involved) within 30-50 miles at all hours of the day and all days is indicative of residential usage. If the company was honest they'd have a reliable and sensible way to screen business usage from residential. The don't and evidently don't want to. Packet8 is trying to have it's marketing cake and eat it too. That's illegal. Quit apologizing for them.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12961612 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 22:18:01 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12961539 Test99 :

said by voiplover

Packet8 could advertise the plan as 3,000 minutes per month, the way the cell phone companies do. Then high-volume customers wouldn't feel cheated and Packet8 wouldn't feel like martyrs. Everybody wins.
--
FWD 50775]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12961539 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 22:09:03 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12961360 voiplover : If the wholesale market is around .004 to .015 termination + the ~$2/month for the DID. So 8.5k = $34 + the price of the DID plus the price of the DTA plus the cost to run P8 and maintain and update the equipment, all on a $20/month plan. What can a provider say???]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12961360 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 21:48:17 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12961156 Daviey : In for a penny, in for a pound I guess. The unlimited vs limited argument is a red herring. What P8 (or Vonage, or whoever) is claiming is business usage. Of the factors they use in determining that, minutes per month is one. How can they know that the OP is a nice lady with a house full of teenagers just calling their friends? And what if someone does purchase a $19.95 line and use 8000 min/mo for business purposes, then tells P8 they are just a house full of teenagers? On the other hand, how does the OP assure them that she really is just a house full of teens and get her phone line like the rest of us? I don't see how this is so black and white. How do they know who is telling the truth?

The process as it stands is horrible and will have to change, but I don't see anything illegal about it. No one is advertising one thing and giving another, they are just having a heck of a time coming up with a way to weed out heavy residential users from business abusers. At the very least, there needs to be a well defined warning and appeals process by the provider.

I have no love lost on P8; they provide what I need and they are cheap. If things change much, I would jump ship like any other good American consumer. But, there are two sides to this thing and until that is recognized, this argument is never going to make any sense.

David]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12961156 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 21:28:17 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12960885 cbrain : Who can I speak with at P8 about getting credit for light usage? ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12960885 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 21:01:32 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12959939 joako : I get termination within the US for around 1 cent/minute, I am sure they pay less than that.
--
I'm joakimsen and I approve this message. »sveasoft.pifiu.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12959939 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 19:16:19 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12959901 scooby : I wonder how much packet8 pays for long distance. Be interesting to know how much 8000-10000 minutes a month costs them.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12959901 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 19:12:28 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12959415 signcarver : Just out of curiosity, who is the end user who is granted personal use in the residential plan, is this just one person? The TOS doesn't allow the transfer of the service to another person so if more than one person is using the service on your end it may be a way to say you need a business account, or an account for each person... just a thought.

BTW I think its crazy that they would do this and I think things will work out.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12959415 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 18:10:28 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12959234 lestat99 :

said by WhyADuck

:

Consider an all-you-can-eat buffet restaurant. The have to pay for the food they serve according to whatever quantity they buy, yet they in effect advertise unlimited food. Most people come in and eat some of the cheaper food and some of the more expensive food. A kid will come in and get a plate full of macaroni and cheese. But then again, every now and then a 600 pound guy walks in that hasn't eaten all day, and not only that, but he pretty much sticks to eating the more expensive foods.

Yes, that is exactly my point. With UNLIMITED service or an all you can eat restaurant there are cases such as the 600 pound guy that goes for nine helpings or the family with teenagers that uses 8000 minutes that the company needs to take into account when establishing pricing. In both cases the pricing should be determined by the the average use understanding that sometimes they are going to take a bath.

What is happening here in your analogy is that they are trying to charge the 600 pound guy more money at the all you can eat buffet just because he is big.

This is clearly bait and switch and I am sure that the state attorney generals office would be glad to look into it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12959234 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 17:45:12 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12958334 WhyADuck :

said by Daviey

said by WhyADuck

:

...it makes me wonder what your motivation is, and if perhaps you have any financial interest in the company.

Bingo. How quickly did it take someone to pick up this ugly practice and try to use it to discredit what I am saying now? Would you do the same if I was making your point instead of another? You seem like someone who is passionate about what is right and wrong, so think about whether this is.

It is customary to disclose stock affiliations if they might taint your views on a subject. If none are made, the assumption should be that none exist unless you want to call the honesty of the individual into question, something I am not prepared to do. That said, and since the question is now hanging there, I don't own stock in anything - period.

David

In an ideal world, everyone would disclose their financial interests and other "hidden" motivations for holding a particular opinion. In the world we happen to live in, that doesn't always happen (some would say it very seldom happens).

Perhaps my explanation wasn't specific enough - we have had people come into this forum and others in the past posing as just regular forum participants, except that they were saying things at odds with what others were saying. For example, talking up a particular company that no one had heard of previously, or that others were having bad experiences with. When someone bothered to trace their IP address or look at other identifying information, and did a little digging, lo and behold it turned out that they were affiliated with the company, or using the company's IP block to post messages, or lived in the same town as the company HQ. Sometimes it finally came out that they really were a company rep, other times we were left with the smoking gun. This does not happen very often, but it has happened.

So people tend to be a little suspicious and (apparently unlike you) I do not see a question about whether there is an affiliation as the same thing as an accusation. In fact it appears that you read "Do you have a financial interest" but somehow in your mind this became "you must own stock." The latter might have been considered accusatory and rude in everyday conversation, but that's not what was said. I'm sorry if you find the mere question offensive, but as long as we have the low standard of corporate (im)morality that seems to exist today, it's not at all out of line to ask such questions.

By the way, to comment a bit further on your earlier message, not every congressional hearing is Joseph McCarthy. McCarthy was on a witch hunt, and he ruined a lot of people's lives for no good reason (I think there just may be people as dangerous as McCarthy in our government today, but that's another discussion for another forum). Yet when Congress investigates a company like WorldCom, or the tobacco industry or pharmaceutical industry, they often ask some very difficult questions in order to discover motives and arrive at the truth. Not every unpleasant question is indicative of a witch hunt - it's just people wanting to know if a particular person's testimony is colored by their own financial interests or beliefs or other considerations.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12958334 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 15:37:58 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12958089 Daviey :

said by WhyADuck

:

...it makes me wonder what your motivation is, and if perhaps you have any financial interest in the company.

said by Daviey

said by laserjobs

said by Daviey

said by laserjobs

said by Daviey

:

However the "you must own stock" comments are inappropriate no matter what the motive.

-D

The premise of financial gain distorts the truth, so I think it is a relevant remark.

Do you own stock or have a personal interest in the company? Do you truly believe the customer is wrong in this case?

I am not saying anyone is wrong here I just want to know the truth. It just seems that when someones opinion goes against many others that there is another reason behind it. Maybe you could explain this reasoning and help me understand?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12958004 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:58:09 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12957921 Daviey :

said by laserjobs

said by Daviey

said by laserjobs

said by Daviey

:

However the "you must own stock" comments are inappropriate no matter what the motive.

-D

The premise of financial gain distorts the truth, so I think it is a relevant remark.

Ok, one more shot. Let me see if I follow your logic:

1. The other person has an opinion that is not the same as mine.
2. Therefore, the other person is wrong.
3. Therefore, they must have another motive for saying these things.
4. Therefore, they must own stock in the company.

Is that it?

-D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12957921 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:46:01 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12957868 WhyADuck :

said by Daviey

said by laserjobs

said by Daviey

:

However the "you must own stock" comments are inappropriate no matter what the motive.

-D

The premise of financial gain distorts the truth, so I think it is a relevant remark.

What is your beef here, anyway? As far as I can tell by reading over this thread, the original comment was not even addressed to you, and it was a question ("Do you have a financial interest") rather than a statement ("you must own stock").

I'm sorry but I have to say that I think such a question may at times be appropriate, because in this forum in the past we've had several instances of "shills" coming in to post messages favorable to a particular company. If someone has a financial interest in a company, it is highly likely that their comments are going to be biased because of that interest. In a forum like this, the discussion is pretty freewheeling, and if you make a statement that sounds like you just might be pumping up a company, don't be surprised if you get asked, publicly, if you have any financial interest in the company.

When you jump into a thread like this and suggest that such questions should only be asked privately, it makes me wonder what your motivation is, and if perhaps you have any financial interest in the company. It would not surprise me if a company rep were to jump in here semi-anonymously, trying to do "damage control" by trying to get us to accept the notion that that the word "unlimited" doesn't really mean what everyone and the dictionary understands the word to mean. When someone tries to convince me that the sky is green rather than blue, I usually do wonder if they have some financial interest in promoting a green sky.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12957868 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:39:40 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12957822 Daviey : Sounds like a plan SLW. I just wanted you to have some perspective on why the thread you innocently started might take on a life of it's own :). Some people that cry sue! seem to have an established chip on their shoulders and others really see a threatening injustice. I've written a letter or two myself on other matters but if your life is as busy as it sounds, let your wallet do the talking. In the end, the marketplace usually sorts this stuff out on it's own.

There is no black and white here. If they had a sure fire way of knowing that it was all residential, I doubt any VoIP provider would care about the usage - it's factored in. But controlling misuse, that's not so easy and some people who are innocent will get caught in the middle.

David]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12957822 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:33:17 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12957744 laserjobs :

said by Daviey

said by laserjobs

said by Daviey

:

However the "you must own stock" comments are inappropriate no matter what the motive.

-D

The premise of financial gain distorts the truth, so I think it is a relevant remark.

IMHO this is as clear as day a bait and switch scam so why would people defend such a practice unless they have a personal interest in the company?

Regardless of company do you think it is fair that someone who signed up for a calling plan advertised as "Unlimited" was automatically switched to a more expensive "Limited" plan even though they did not break any of the clear rules within the TOS?

Maybe it is your rules to keep things private but I believe that being honest and open has a much greater advantage in life. So who owns Packet 8 stock here? and does it sway your opinion of this practice?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12957744 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:23:13 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12957575 digiblur : The one major question has still not be answered or maybe I missed it in this long 2 page thread:

How many of the minutes do you think were outgoing?
--
FWD#64466 - »[Sipura] Make your Sipura Speak! - Step by Step]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12957575 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:01:56 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12957545 Daviey :

said by laserjobs

said by Daviey

:

However the "you must own stock" comments are inappropriate no matter what the motive.

-D

The premise of financial gain distorts the truth, so I think it is a relevant remark.

And asking such a question in the open without the slightest bit of evidence does not distort the truth? Remember Joseph McCarthy (are you now or have you ever been a member...)? If you are truly interested and just asking the question out of the blue, then perhaps you could do that privately. Otherwise, it is quite inappropriate.

-D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12957545 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 13:58:38 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12957503 travelguy : I have no idea what P8's or any other VOIP provider cost structure looks like and I really don't care. I have no idea what P8's business model is, and I also don't care.

Words have meaning and unlimited has a very definite meaning. Any VOIP provider that uses the word unlimited in describing their plan had best be prepared to service customers 24x7 within the context of residential usage (ie no fax blast, no soliciting, no large numbers of different inbound numbers, etc.)

It would be just as easy for them to advertise a "VOIP 3000" plan.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12957503 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 13:52:42 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12957371 IanR :

»"Unlimited" AT&T Ethics]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12957371 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 13:34:47 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12957175 WhyADuck :

said by lestat99

:

Bottom line is that none of these VoIP companies can truly offer UNLIMITED since the wholesale cost of minutes is about $.01/minute. As such, advertising UNLIMITED when they don't mean it is clearly deceptive.

A company can offer unlimited service even if they have to pay for it. The reason is that first of all, there actually is a natural limit - there are only so many minutes in any given month and unless someone figures out how to bend time, they cannot exceed that number (well, technically, they could exceed that number if they made a whole lot of three-way calls, but even then there is still a finite limit). And the second is that they play the averages and if necessary could adjust the "unlimited" rate to compensate for the heavy users.

Consider an all-you-can-eat buffet restaurant. The have to pay for the food they serve according to whatever quantity they buy, yet they in effect advertise unlimited food. Most people come in and eat some of the cheaper food and some of the more expensive food. A kid will come in and get a plate full of macaroni and cheese. But then again, every now and then a 600 pound guy walks in that hasn't eaten all day, and not only that, but he pretty much sticks to eating the more expensive foods. The restaurant cannot summarily refuse to serve him (otherwise they could be sued for discrimination) and they definitely lose money on that guy, if you look at him alone. But as I say, they play the averages - for every guy like that, there are probably ten or twenty kids that come in and eat the mac and cheese and pizza and breadsticks, and there are the older people who eat like birds.

And besides that, one specific buffet restaurant I'm aware of seems to take the opportunity once or twice a year to figure out what it costs them for the average customer, and then they adjust the price, usually upward by about ten or twenty cents.

And although it's not formally written out, buffet restaurants have an implied term-of-service also. You can't take food out of the restaurant to eat later. You can't bring in your pet elephant (a teenager is okay, though, even if they may eat about the same amount). :) Some restaurants will even try to charge you extra if you waste food (by taking it and then not eating it). But any human being really can come in and eat all they can eat.

So I would say that yes, a VoIP company really can offer UNLIMITED service to end users. Because, there are a lot of people who will buy the service and maybe use 500 or a thousand minutes a month on average, and some will use a lot less than that. But every so often the heavy residential user will come along, and yes, they may indeed lose money on the odd customer here and there, but they make it up on all the other people who use a lot less but still don't want to pay by the minute. And, like the all-you-can-eat restaurant, there is always the option to raise the price to cover expenses.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12957175 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 13:08:42 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12956717 RyanG1 : heh, i work for blockbuster, but on that note i think its the people who are at fault. Everybody is too eager to sue these days. As far as the packet8 thing goes, just seems like they are jumping on the bandwagon with ISP's proclaiming "unlimited service". But then again what service offering company wouldnt consider this, its easy $$$.

corporate greed is greater than the little guy.
--
"Man who stands on toilet is high on pot."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12956717 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 12:00:05 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12956626 lestat99 :

said by lmjh7065

:

It appears that Packet8 "baited" you with their advertising for unlimited local and long distance (US & Canada) for the unheard of price of $20/month. Then they want to "switch" you to a higher rate "limited" plan. Way to go P8 to win friends and customers.

Yes I would call your local Attorney General. Bait and Switch advertising is illegal. If they are advertising UNLIMITED to get your business and then switch you once they have you locked in this is a classic case of Bait and Switch.

I'd imagine the mere threat of filing a complaint with the Attorney General would get P8s attention. Don't just threaten however, follow through. I am sure that others on this forum would be interested in also adding their complaints.

Blockbuster is currently under investigation by a number of state attorney generals for similar practices; advertising the End of Late Fees when hidden in the fine print it turns out that this is not the case. This P8 case is *very* similiar.

Bottom line is that none of these VoIP companies can truly offer UNLIMITED since the wholesale cost of minutes is about $.01/minute. As such, advertising UNLIMITED when they don't mean it is clearly deceptive. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12956626 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:44:29 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12956309 laserjobs :

said by Daviey

:

However the "you must own stock" comments are inappropriate no matter what the motive.

-D

The premise of financial gain distorts the truth, so I think it is a relevant remark. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12956309 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 10:47:29 EDT Re: [Packet8]P8 switch to Business2000.unlimited http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12956167 usa2k :

said by acadiel :
You know, where's P8Support during all of this?

P8Support

1w3d, but being here is not his job.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12956167 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 10:15:45 EDT If I recall with Vonage... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12956104 qworster : Vonage simply claims that if they see you going over 5000 minutes a month, they have the right to make sure you're actually USING the account for home usage. They don't ASSUME you're not and bump you to a business account.

Personally, I do not find this unreasonable.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12956104 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 10:03:03 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12956039 acadiel : You know, where's P8Support during all of this?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12956039 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 09:47:55 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12955729 usa2k : »VOIP minute caps]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12955729 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 08:20:55 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12955261 sheik28 :

said by SLW1

:

I do have one more email to P8 waiting in my drafts just in case they still insist on switching us...this one will go higher up the chain, keep us on unlimited or we'll go and file complaints while the door's hitting us in the butt on the way out.

:)

I would probably keep the results here in this one thread, just to keeep it all organized. Makes it easier for everyone if they don't need to view 2 different threads, 1 for the topic and a second for the result.

Good for you for going premium!!! It doesn't do anythig for us but it does wonders for you!!!!!
--
There is no such thing as a stupid question, and yes, the camel types. ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12955261 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 03:49:30 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12955218 WhyADuck :

said by Daviey

:

SLW, you said you are new and so probably don't realize the history behind this topic. A couple of years ago we were bashing Vonage for, strangely enough, using that same 3000 minute point to check you out (and no, P8 is not the only one to have done this). The subject resurfaces every couple of months and pretty much the same points get rehashed.

Take a look back and you will see the same recommendations - sue, write (insert every agency known to man here) etc. You won't get anywhere with these things (and if you check out those old threads, neither has anyone else - it's just venting).

And just how would you know that, pray tell?

On the rare occasion that I have had to contact my state's AG office regarding a consumer dispute, it has always generated some action. Normally the first thing that happens is that a letter is sent to the business in question outlining the complaint, and the business has the opportunity to correct the problem (and respond to the AG's office explaining how they corrected the problem). If they do correct the problem and the customer is happy, it goes into the file associated with that business at the AG's office but otherwise nothing is shouted from the rooftops. As long as the person who brought the complaint is satisfied, that is pretty much the end of it. If there's a serious violation of law and the company admits to it I think there is sometimes a small fine levied, but nothing near what would be levied if the company refuses to acknowledge or correct the problem.

I cannot point to any specific instance where a state AG's office has handled a complaint against a VoIP company but I personally have filed the odd complaint against a company that did not want to honor their advertising and in such cases have always got results. In my case this has only happened maybe three or four times in my lifetime (and there have been a another handful of times that just the threat of a complaint to the AG's office was enough to get action) but I can tell you from personal experience that complaining to the AG's office does work, at least in the state where I live.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12955218 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 03:24:45 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12955180 WhyADuck :

said by SLW1

:

My husband is worried about the $59 cancellation fee.

If they attempt to charge you that fee, my first thought would be that you could successfully dispute it with your credit card company. In an ideal world, all you would need to do is explain basically what you've explained here, which is that you signed up for an "unlimited" plan but the company refused to provide the advertised "unlimited" service and instead attempted to force you to switch to another plan. Since that is not at all what you agreed to, nor what was offered in their advertising, you should not have to pay a disconnect fee.

But since this isn't an ideal world, let me float another idea here, with the caveat that I am not a lawyer. Perhaps one possible course of action would be to respond to the company by saying that you accepted an advertised offer, and that offered plan is the only plan you want. Therefore, you do not authorize them to change you to any other plan than the one you are currently subscribed to, nor do you authorize them to disconnect your service. As far as you are concerned, the only acceptable course of action is to continue your service on the plan you are currently on. Furthermore, under no circumstances are they authorized to charge your credit card for any service other than the unlimited plan you originally subscribed to, nor are they authorized to charge you a disconnect fee because you are not authorizing them to disconnect your current service or to change you to another plan.

If you do that, be sure to send a copy of that message or letter with your complaint to the AG's office and also keep a copy to send to your credit card company, should the need arise. Even if you send such a response, I would still contact the AG's office.

Once again I must emphasize that I am not a lawyer, so if you happen to know any lawyers you might want to run this idea past them and see what they think. Or, perhaps if you call the AG's office they would give you some advice on what the best course of action might be.

My only thought is that you really shouldn't have to pay a disconnect fee because you are not the one wanting to disconnect the service; instead the company is in effect wanting to disconnect you from the service you originally subscribed to. But, if you actually call and ask to have your service disconnected, it may be that they would have a stronger case for charging the disconnect fee, since you would be the one requesting the disconnect (even though from your point of view you are being forced to take that action, as a result of their threat to switch you to a different plan).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12955180 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 03:08:47 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12955067 WhyADuck :

said by IanR

:

Go read the TOS of all the other "unlimited" offers, they all have similar conditions and ultimately they will all act in the same way in which P8 has acted against you.

I really doubt that, because I doubt the other companies want to wind up in the same amount of trouble that this company is likely to find themselves in if they don't change their position real quick.

Let's see if I can put this in a way that some of the particularly obtuse people here can understand it. Let's suppose you saw an offer for cable or satellite TV, and their advertising clearly stated "100 Channels of Television." So you called and ordered and when the service was installed, it turned out that there were only 25 channels. And then you find that buried in the terms of service it says, "we reserve the right to offer less than 100 channels if we think it's costing us more money than we anticipated to offer 100 channels."

Now do you think that any Attorney General would look at that situation and say, "Well, it's in their terms of service so what they advertised doesn't matter"? No, I think it would be quite the opposite - if you relied on what they advertised and that was the offer you accepted, they cannot totally change the offer by putting something in the terms of service.

The problem here is that we have a company advertising unlimited service but their actions indicate that they don't really intend to provide unlimited service to anyone. It's not simply that they don't intend to provide it to telemarketers, or to people who want to make a 24-hour-a-day connection to some service, or anything unusual like that. In this case, it appears that the customer is being forced to change plans solely because she relied on the fact that the service was advertised as unlimited and her family made a lot of calls, but nothing out of the ordinary for residential calling usage.

If a company advertises a particular thing, they can, to a point, put restrictions on it. Car dealers sometimes advertise a low price on a car but indicate they will not sell the car to other dealers. But they'd better be willing to sell it to somebody (the general public, for example) at the advertised price, else it's false advertising and consumer fraud.

My belief is that if a company puts the word unlimited in their advertising but in fact no one seems to be able to obtain truly unlimited service, that is a company that is a dishonest bunch of lying cheats that ought to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. In my opinion, whichever company executive made the decision to renege on the offer made in the advertising is no better than Bernie Ebbers, and should be put in the same place he's going to.

It is high time we put an end to the notion that corporations can do any damn thing they want to and that consumers just have to take it. I think the conviction of Mr. Ebbers may well have been a signal from the jury that people are getting fed up with the antics of corporate executives who think they are above the law. It would not surprise me at all if companies that engage in deceptive advertising start to feel some of the same heat.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12955067 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 02:27:59 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12955008 rizzo2dial : SLW,

If you plan on porting your number to another VOIP, do not cancel your P8 service!!! Your service must be "active" for the number to be ported. Once you cancel your service, P8 becomes the owner of the phone number. At that point they are under no obligation to allow it to be ported.

Also, if you did not originally port your number to P8 (i.e. if you're using a P8 assigned number), you'll likely run into difficulty porting that number as well. Reason? P8 "leases" the number to you (i.e. it's not the same as a legacy PSTN line in which you have the rights to that number). If you originally ported your number to P8, and if your service is active, you should have little difficulty porting it to another provider (who does LNP).

With the above said, I just heard from a friend who recently cancelled his P8 service that P8 offered him the option of holding onto his service for $5.99/month. I didn't get precise details, so I don't know how many monthly minutes (if any) that rate included; however, calls were being billed at 3.9�/minute thereafter. Presumably, calls to other P8 customers are free, but without plan details, I can't state that as fact. (My friend was told that it's an old plan P8 used to advertise, so perhaps others in here can chime in on that plan).

If you're intent on porting your # away from P8, this is probably the most cost effective way to retain your number until the port has completed. I suggest you call up P8, tell them you're going on vacation and would like to temporarily suspend your service. They likely won't offer the option to suspend service; however, hopefully they'll offer you the $5.99/month plan. ;)

Rizzo]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12955008 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 02:09:38 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12954749 SLW1 : Yeah, I've only been lurking out here since mid January. I didn't know anything behind Vonage's history until a few posters mentioned it.

I'm really not in the sue'ing mood, so I wasn't thinking of going that far. I will file complaints though, if they pursue this further. If nothing happens with the complaints, fine. If something does happen with the complaints, fine there too. All I'd like P8 to do is define what unlimited is and what reasonable is? How was I supposed to know that my usage was abnormal and unreasonable. Heck, I read over the TOC at least twice (yes, I did) before committing to the agreement. I kept asking, 'what's the catch?' I didn't see one, so click on the submit button I went.

I'll see what I get back from them on Monday. Right now, I'm researching Lingo. I do notice that they do not charge incoming calls against your usage. I will also email them to ask if they can handle us, if there's any catches and ease of number portabity from P8.

I do have one more email to P8 waiting in my drafts just in case they still insist on switching us...this one will go higher up the chain, keep us on unlimited or we'll go and file complaints while the door's hitting us in the butt on the way out.

I've tried those 'must be tied to da 'puter' options (Skype during beta and a couple others). It never worked. It was cool for about a week, then it was back to the phone. They always complained of quality issues. Plus, there's still a lot of dialup out here and several still without a 'puter and internet. We tried DialPad too. I didn't like the quality of that. Seemed like we were talking on walkie talkies.

Lets just say, I've learned something and I'll dust myself off and keep going, where ever that is.

Thanks everyone for your 2-cents in all this. If you want, I'll post the result (probably in another thread). It seems like some folks are wanting this thread to die out. So, we can if ya want. It is good though sometimes to have these topics come up every once in a while just to know what does happen out there. It's nice to know what other's experiences are.

I also learned how resourceful the folks out here are. I wasn't sure at first whether to go premium or not until this. The help I received out here has been more than worth the $10.

Thanks again.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12954749 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 01:10:42 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12954703 lmjh7065 : I predict that to make amends, Packet8 will add roll-over minutes to their plans. Just teasing here.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12954703 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 01:04:38 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12954570 Daviey : However the "you must own stock" comments are inappropriate no matter what the motive.

-D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12954570 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 00:43:34 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12954523 Daviey : SLW, you said you are new and so probably don't realize the history behind this topic. A couple of years ago we were bashing Vonage for, strangely enough, using that same 3000 minute point to check you out (and no, P8 is not the only one to have done this). The subject resurfaces every couple of months and pretty much the same points get rehashed.

Take a look back and you will see the same recommendations - sue, write (insert every agency known to man here) etc. You won't get anywhere with these things (and if you check out those old threads, neither has anyone else - it's just venting). I don't know where that employee came up with 3000 minutes as I have used 4000-5000 min/mo on P8 for almost 2 years without a single comment. Perhaps it's new but more likely they just didn't know what they were talking about.

I'm sure that plenty of people go over 3000 minutes and despite what some might say in this thread, there have been what, 2-3 actual instances reported that P8 bumped plans? If you really want a solution, see about getting hold of someone that you can talk to about it at P8. You will have to call during regular business hours to get anyone who can actually do anything. If you can explain that you are not using the line for business use, they might change their minds. If they won't budge, drop them and maybe dispute the cancellation fee. It's not how many minutes you use per se, but they do use that as an initial flag to check further to prevent business use on the residential plan.

If you do change providers, you might want to email them beforehand and ask if 9000 min/mo is going to be a problem. P8 has an awful business plan otherwise I would suggest just moving to that. I'm beginning to think that a pricing plan like VoicePulse might be closer to a sustainable model for VoIP. $19.95 for all you can eat seems too cheap. The quality of support has shown this if nothing else.

David ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12954523 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 00:36:04 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12954371 Kearnstd : have your kids tried Teamspeak? yes i know this sounds odd but if the caller on the other end is also at home a headset and Teamspeak would be truely unlimited.......... though i guess it wouldnt really work that well but for friends calling home to home it would.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12954371 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 00:12:05 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12954369 laserjobs :

said by boyblue:

post lingo on the the lingo board. you efforts are qiut tranparent.

I have nothing to gain, I am not asking for a referral, I am just trying to help someone out. If Sunrocket or Broadvoice had a number she wanted I would have recommended them.

Fact is Packet 8 is not acting honestly by automatically switching her to a plan that is going to cost her more when she did not violate the TOS. She was just trying to use an unlimited plan for residential service.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12954369 Sun, 20 Mar 2005 00:11:58 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12954182 voiplover :

said by st7860

:

why dont you just switch to lingo or vonage for about $25/mo. neither of those two companies will complain if you use thousands of minutes every month.

They both have it in their TOS. I would get it on paper first. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12954182 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 23:40:45 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12954161 st7860 : why dont you just switch to lingo or vonage for about $25/mo. neither of those two companies will complain if you use thousands of minutes every month.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12954161 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 23:37:17 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12953952 anon : post lingo on the the lingo board. you efforts are qiut tranparent.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12953952 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 23:07:05 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12953918 sholling : I would take it up the Shyster Generals office in your state, the FCC, and the FTC for fraudulent advertising. If the advertise then by law it's unlimited...

Where is a class action shyster when we need one?

It's amazing the reactions I've gotten from companies. BF Goodrich told me to take a hike once and a 5 minute call got me a call back and a set of tires. A screwing by a local repair shop was resolved by a letter to the right agency and a month later I had a call begging me to get them off the shops back.
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"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." --FREDERIC BASTIAT-- ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12953918 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 23:02:06 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12953720 SLW1 : I'm probably a minority 'she'. Call me she-geek! Husband's friends are jealous.

Anyway, almost all the kids calls are long distance. I live in the sticks or close enough to it!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12953720 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 22:33:14 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12953719 sheik28 : Executive Officer of Centile, Inc., a subsidiary of 8x8. He has been closely involved with telecommunications technology for over 18 years, having started with Marconi PLC in 1985. He has held management roles with Plessey Inc., and with Mitel Corporation. Rees received a B.Sc. (Hons) from the University of Manchester, Institute of Science and Technology in Electrical and Electronic Engineering and an MBA from the University of LaVerne.

Wanna blame someone....

Huw Rees recently assumed the role of Vice-President of Sales and Marketing for 8x8, Inc. in addition to his role as Chief Execu

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12953719 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 22:33:06 EDT The Packet 8 SCAM!!! http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12953689 qworster : The irony is that most of the calls his teens are making are likely LOCAL calls!. That means that had he NOT bought into Packet 8's deceptive advertising BULL**IT, he would likely still be on his IBOC'S (truly) UNLIMITED LOCAL CALLING plan for under 20 bucks a month!

Packet 8 has decent service (I have it) but their customer service SUCKS! I'm fighting them now trying to get three months service rebated that they owe me (I signed up through J&R Music World and sent in the paperwork for a three month rebate they had last June). Packet 8 simply IGNORES my emails and NEVER RETURNS CALLS! THIS is how they handle custmer problems....

I'm planning to take them to small claims court soon....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12953689 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 22:29:00 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12953652 blohner : Sorry to hear about this...
This is one item I really don't have a gripe about with verizon. When I used to have them (I am VoIP only for over 2 years). I had 3 regular phone lines and two ISDN lines (4 total B-channels). I payed about $24 extra per month for unlimited local and regional calling (for all lines together) and the ISDN lines where used for internet (before I was able to get anything else out in the boonies here).... My total monthly usage was around 140000 minutes (all 4 ISDN channels where connected almost 24x7, the would automatically reconnect if dropped) - add in maybe 1000 minutes of regular phone calls.... I never even got a call questioning what I was doing.....
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I am addicted to speed --- OOL speed that is ---
~Help find a cure for cancer~Proud Member Team Discovery]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12953652 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 22:24:52 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12953338 SLW1 : 99% of our calls are long distance. There's only one person we call in this local area and that may contribute to maybe 200-300 minutes a month (thanks to verizon and their sucky coverage area). Thats what made our decision to wave off POTS easy.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12953338 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 21:36:01 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12953318 MxxCon :
said by shutrbug :

I checked the terms of the Sunrocket agreement for any such deceptive phrasing, and fortunately didn't see any.
you probably missed
any other activity that results in excessive usage inconsistent with normal residential or home office usage patterns. If SunRocket determines, in its sole discretion, that you are reselling the Service, allowing persons residing outside of your household to regularly use the Service, or that your Service is being used for any of the aforementioned activities, SunRocket reserves the right to immediately terminate without notice or modify the Service and to assess additional charges for each month in which excessive usage occurred.
sounds exactly like P8's
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[Sig removed by Administrator: Signature can not exceed 20GB]]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12953318 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 21:32:58 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12953280 GeekNJ : If I calculated things right, you said 8500 mins last month and that was Feb with 28 days.
28 days * 24 hours * 60 mins = 40,320 mins last month.
8500/40320 = 21% of the total possible time was your usage.

If that's correct, I'm not sure how 21% of the whole possible time would be considered excessive. It's not even 1/4 of the day.

Yeah, to me, 8500 mins is a lot, but my girls are just 11 and 9 so they IM a bit and that's it, but I can see it coming. I think I'd get them their own line though, and if their calls are mainly local you might be better off getting a POTS line for unlimited (and yes, I think POTS doesn't care if you are always on) local calls.
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Tweaked your connection? | Mail Parse | Speed Converter]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12953280 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 21:27:18 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12953216 voiplover : Your right. SR is a newbe though and their TOS is new. Give the a couple of years dealing with telemarketers and lawyers and you will see it grow. :(]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12953216 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 21:17:35 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12953123 shutrbug : Sorry to interject in this very interesting thread, but I recently signed up for the Sunrocket Annual Edition package. After reading the horrors that SLW is encountering with what I consider decpetive advertising, I checked the terms of the Sunrocket agreement for any such deceptive phrasing, and fortunately didn't see any. Here's what Sunrocket says:

Residential Use. The Service is intended for residential use. You are expressly prohibited from using the Service for autodialing, telemarketing (including without limitation charitable or political solicitation or polling), continuous or extensive call forwarding, fax broadcast, fax blasting or any other activity that results in excessive usage inconsistent with normal residential or home office usage patterns. If SunRocket determines, in its sole discretion, that you are reselling the Service, allowing persons residing outside of your household to regularly use the Service, or that your Service is being used for any of the aforementioned activities, SunRocket reserves the right to immediately terminate without notice or modify the Service and to assess additional charges for each month in which excessive usage occurred.

This seems much more reasonable than what P8 has included in their TOS.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12953123 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 21:02:06 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12953063 voiplover :
said by laserjobs :

said by IanR :

But ALL of the companies advertize the same and act the same.

Then why is Packet 8 the only company with this type of complaint listed here? Maybe because the other companies know it would be false advertising?

A little late but....
Besides posted disconnect fees and exceeding 8000 minutes a month, what else can we complain about? This is the 3rd post like this that I have seen in the last year.
Bumping someone up that isn't telemarketing is a rare occurrence. I hate to even guess. :D

The wording unlimited almost ended Vonage a couple of years ago, so I think court is a no brainer. Something like all you can eat buffets. :D
MCI, Sprint, AT&T.... companies that offer the 'unlimited plane' all have their limits. All except maybe Voip2... :D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12953063 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 20:51:38 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12952896 novaflare :
said by BillRoland :

Not to put a damper on the legal aspect (especially since I agree with WhyADuck about the definition of unlimited), but any legal action is probably going to take much longer than you want it to and may or may not be favorable in outcome. I know that legal action has been threatened at every VoIP company on this forum at one point or another but I don't recall any victories as of yet. Just food for thought.

Possible there have been victories but they were out of court setlements. And part of tha was likly signing a nda. So chances are good any successful cases had ndas attached.
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DSLR security chat at us.ausirc.net chanel #dslr_sec lets pack this channel open source dns server for *nix and windows »powerdns.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12952896 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 20:30:27 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12952554 SLW1 : My husband is worried about the $59 cancellation fee. I told him I'd really not feel comfortable with P8 (what will they try next questions keep running). Might as well leave now, cut our losses with P8 and go somewhere that want's our business and referrals.

What really sucks is that we were happy with the service and had not one lick of problems until this. We could have been a valuable customer with the referrals that would have come their way.

Their loss, someone else's gain. I hope Lingo can port over our P8 number.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12952554 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 19:49:34 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12952487 testQ : SLW,
If I were you, I would shop around and check somebody who provide an unlimited service in my Area and talk to them the real facts of usage 8-10K is agreable and join with them if they agree. I would n't pay a single penny more for these P8 any more. I am an ex P8 member and cacelled my service last friday.
There is another solution for you. In this Forum or anandtech.com forum, I saw a voip unlimited service for lessthan $20. They do not provide dialtone but, you can dial-out and it is free for 35 countrys as well. They have different calling plans and you can select whichever you want if you think getting local telco basic line and longdistance thorugh this companyis a viable solution for you.

If you wait too much time you may run out of options and may end-up paying their ridiculous 75 equipment fee abd 59 cancellatioin fees.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12952487 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 19:40:08 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12952283 laserjobs :
said by SLW1 :

Awe...thanks for sticking up for me!

My husband is wanting to wait and see what they offer us back. He's guessing that dept is out for the weekend.

Here's what I'll guess P8's options will be for us...
get a couple virtual numbers
get an extra line
suck us into their new DTA that accepts two phone lines (for the grand price of $80.

Even if we do lower our usage (which we shouldn't have to do), what's to say they don't come back on us next month to tell us 'oh my, you used 2900 minutes, that's not reasonable personal use for P8's standards' and still threaten to switch us. I feel that we'll still be in a battle with them over this. What gets us is why didn't they discuss this first with us before the threat?

Packet 8 was advertising that you could travel with the DTA-310 and then people who were using it out of the county got a nice email stating that because they were not in the US that they would be switched to their international plan. Yes they went to the effort to monitor and decipher IP addresses to find out who was using their service outside of the US even though it did not cost Packet 8 anything extra. I have not had Packet 8 for a long time but they never cease to amaze me with the stunts they pull to up their individual user revenue. If they just focused on their service and quality rather than how they can cut their losses and increase revenue they could be a top player in the VOIP market. One of the members around here touts Dr. Deming and Packet 8 could definitely benefit from his theories.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12952283 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 19:10:35 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12952222 SLW1 : Awe...thanks for sticking up for me!

My husband is wanting to wait and see what they offer us back. He's guessing that dept is out for the weekend.

Here's what I'll guess P8's options will be for us...
get a couple virtual numbers
get an extra line
suck us into their new DTA that accepts two phone lines (for the grand price of $80.

Even if we do lower our usage (which we shouldn't have to do), what's to say they don't come back on us next month to tell us 'oh my, you used 2900 minutes, that's not reasonable personal use for P8's standards' and still threaten to switch us. I feel that we'll still be in a battle with them over this. What gets us is why didn't they discuss this first with us before the threat?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12952222 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 19:00:22 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12952140 laserjobs :
said by swanboy :

laserjobs,

Your situation with P8 is wildly unacceptable to me. Perhaps it is because SunRocket spoils me, I don't know.

All I can say is that I've been with SunRocket for a while and they are great, perfect support, great service, and (the best part) dirt cheap.

Judging by the 309-807, you cannot get SR service, but I would at least signup for them to let you know, they are expanding fast. ;)

I think you mean to address you comment to SLW, I am just sticking up for her and asking for truth in advertising. :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12952140 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:50:11 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12952110 swanboy : laserjobs,

Your situation with P8 is wildly unacceptable to me. Perhaps it is because SunRocket spoils me, I don't know.

All I can say is that I've been with SunRocket for a while and they are great, perfect support, great service, and (the best part) dirt cheap.

Judging by the 309-807, you cannot get SR service, but I would at least signup for them to let you know, they are expanding fast. ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12952110 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:47:11 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12952103 laserjobs :
said by IanR :

Goread the TOS of all the other "unlimited" offers, they all have similar conditions and ultimately they will all act in the same way in which P8 has acted against you.

Take up the battle of advertizing but it is endemic not limited to P8, not limited to VoIP industry.

But if you need a solution to your problem you won't find it fighting the advertizing issues, given the TOS. IMHO.

Then why has Packet 8 been the only one accused of not offering unlimited minutes for an Unlimited Plan?

Do you have a financial interest in Packet 8 that is preventing you from presenting the clear facts over this issue?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12952103 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:46:16 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12952048 SLW1 :
quote:
Read the above TOS carefully. Especially the words "..reasonable personable use...." and "...continuous connectivity..." I would agree with P8 that a residential account using 8-9K minutes each month is outside the "reasonable" and has elements of "continuous".
I repeat this is a $19.95 p.m. product, think about it and those TOS words.]

You know what? They should just put a number behind it...or at least a definition to reasonable personal use. 8-9k minutes is REASONABLE for my household (and probably many others sucked into this). 2k minutes may be reasonable for yours. Whatever you think, its still BAIT & SWITCH. I'm going to continue to go my route to get what was promised.

You seem to be the only one posting on P8's side.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12952048 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:39:36 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12952013 IanR : Goread the TOS of all the other "unlimited" offers, they all have similar conditions and ultimately they will all act in the same way in which P8 has acted against you.

Take up the battle of advertizing but it is endemic not limited to P8, not limited to VoIP industry.

But if you need a solution to your problem you won't find it fighting the advertizing issues, given the TOS. IMHO.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12952013 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:35:25 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12951983 SLW1 :
quote:
I can't believe that all the intelligent people here EXPECT a small VoIP company to allow anyone to use 8-9K minutes a months for $19.95 p.m.

OK if you don't like the "unlimited" advertizing complain all you like. But ALL of the companies advertize the same and act the same. Or they charge much more.

I can only say "get real". Each call made by anyone ending in a POTS line has a fee to the company and a massive amount of calls is unsustainable.

Live with it. It's a $19.95 product, what do you really expect?

The other companies probably know the laws (or have better lawyers)...if you sell something as unlimited, you'd better give it as such. If you're not prepared for families like ours to come buy and actually use the service, change the TOC and our family will go elsewhere! I am REAL! I want what I joined up for...not to be switched to something I didn't sign up for (downgraded for a higher price).

I really hope they'll make some changes or they'll wish that they never offered service in IL (at least I can hope). Our AG usually doesn't go lightly on Bait and Switch tactics.

I don't know if you read some of the other posts, but Lingo offers true unlimited calling (they offer what they sell). I am living with it...I'm going to LINGO! At the same time, P8 will get a piece of my mind.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12951983 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:32:20 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12951970 laserjobs :
said by IanR :

PERSONAL USE. 8x8's Service Plans for residential subscribers that offer unlimited minutes of PSTN calls ("Unlimited PSTN Plans") are for the reasonable personal residential use of End User only. This means that End User is not to resell or transfer the Service or Equipment to any other person for any purpose, without express written permission from 8x8 in advance. End Users of Unlimited PSTN Plans shall not use the Services for commercial or governmental purposes or for profit or non-profit activities, including, but not limited to, home office, business, sales, tele-commuting, autodialing, continuous or extensive call forwarding, continuous connectivity, fax broadcast, fax blasting, telemarketing or any other activity that would be inconsistent with personal and residential usage. End User agrees to notify 8x8 immediately if usage of the Unlimited PSTN Plans changes from personal residential to business use and subscribe to a business plan. 8x8 reserves the right to immediately terminate or modify the Services of any End User using Unlimited PSTN Plans if 8x8 determines, in its sole discretion, that End User is not using the Unlimited PSTN Plans for End User's reasonable personal residential use.

Read the above TOS carefully. Especially the words "..reasonable personable use...." and "...continuous connectivity..." I would agree with P8 that a residential accountusing 8-9K minutes each month is outside the "reasonable" and has elements of "coninuous".
I repeat this is a $19.95 p.m. product, think about it and those TOS words.

The thread writer and a lot of other pwople are not working towards a reasonable solution here. I and a few others have made some reasonable suggestions, but they are not being taken up it seems. Complain to everyone about such a case but I cannot see anyone wining and I cannot see it gaining a solution to the real problem. Get 2 VoIP lines and pay for them they are much cheaper than any other solution IMHO.

Easy and reasonable solution to the problem, Packet 8 should not advertise it as an "Unlimited Plan". Case and point.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12951970 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:30:38 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12951936 IanR : PERSONAL USE. 8x8's Service Plans for residential subscribers that offer unlimited minutes of PSTN calls ("Unlimited PSTN Plans") are for the reasonable personal residential use of End User only. This means that End User is not to resell or transfer the Service or Equipment to any other person for any purpose, without express written permission from 8x8 in advance. End Users of Unlimited PSTN Plans shall not use the Services for commercial or governmental purposes or for profit or non-profit activities, including, but not limited to, home office, business, sales, tele-commuting, autodialing, continuous or extensive call forwarding, continuous connectivity, fax broadcast, fax blasting, telemarketing or any other activity that would be inconsistent with personal and residential usage. End User agrees to notify 8x8 immediately if usage of the Unlimited PSTN Plans changes from personal residential to business use and subscribe to a business plan. 8x8 reserves the right to immediately terminate or modify the Services of any End User using Unlimited PSTN Plans if 8x8 determines, in its sole discretion, that End User is not using the Unlimited PSTN Plans for End User's reasonable personal residential use.

Read the above TOS carefully. Especially the words "..reasonable personable use...." and "...continuous connectivity..." I would agree with P8 that a residential account using 8-9K minutes each month is outside the "reasonable" and has elements of "continuous".
I repeat this is a $19.95 p.m. product, think about it and those TOS words.

The thread writer and a lot of other pwople are not working towards a reasonable solution here. I and a few others have made some reasonable suggestions, but they are not being taken up it seems. Complain to everyone about such a case, but I cannot see anyone wining and I cannot see it gaining a solution to the real problem. Get 2 VoIP lines and pay for them they are much cheaper than any other solution IMHO.

By the way I believe other VoIP plans have very similar TOS to P8 and I recall even AT&T's service enven noted the %K issue for a while and Yes I have seen other threads.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12951936 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:25:15 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12951879 laserjobs :
said by IanR :

But ALL of the companies advertize the same and act the same.

Then why is Packet 8 the only company with this type of complaint listed here? Maybe because the other companies know it would be false advertising?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12951879 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:17:30 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12951863 RadioDoc : All the intelligent people here EXPECT a small VoIP company to live up to their advertising. If Packet8 baits with 'unlimited' and then switches when someone tries to use the "unlimited" product they purchased, they are in violation of the law, especially if they try to charge cancellation fees or have collected upfront and don't refund those fees when the customer bolts for an honest company.

If Packet8 can't provide what they promote, they deserve to be run out of business.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12951863 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:15:18 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12951858 laserjobs :
said by IanR :

Live with it. It's a $19.95 product, what do you really expect?

Everyone here is just asking Packet 8 to deliver what they advertise nothing more.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12951858 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:14:35 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12951819 IanR : I can't believe that all the intelligent people here EXPECT a small VoIP company to allow anyone to use 8-9K minutes a months for $19.95 p.m.

OK if you don't like the "unlimited" advertizing complain all you like. But ALL of the companies advertize the same and act the same. Or they charge much more.

I can only say "get real". Each call made by anyone ending in a POTS line has a fee to the company and a massive amount of calls is unsustainable.

Live with it. It's a $19.95 product, what do you really expect?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12951819 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:09:44 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12951762 SLW1 : I've filled and printed out the form for the complaint to the AG's office as well as P8's TOC. I'll also print out the 'bait' (P8's claim of Unlimited calling) from the website.

Too bad I still have the hook stuck in my lower lip!

Wow, I am surprised on how my first newbie post here hit a hot topic. I'm shocked we already have 4 pages to this.

I still need to get my P8 review typed up out here so other customers don't get the hook stuck.

In the first email I sent back to P8 on Thursday, I asked if the BBB knew of their practice of selling something described as unlimited when in fact it was not. Of course I didn't get resonse to that question...it was just the canned "let us check into it" (but we won't) response.

Thanks to everyone that has helped us in means of the direction to go in with this. I won't spend much more time than I have to with P8...the taste is too sour to stay.

hmmm, where's that rep from P8 that lurks around here?...must not be touching this one with a ten foot pole.

quote:
One question though if it's all teenagers then where is all the LD coming from shouldn't the bf/gf be in roughly the same area and don't most pots lines include all the locals for like 15 bucks a month, so could it be beneficial to get your pots for the kids and only use the p8 for Ld. Might be harder to do but seems like it could work.

we live is a really small town. Guys here don't date girls here vise versa. Everything outside of town is long distance. Our main reason for Voip.

quote:
Did staying within the terms of service occur to you??

:huh: I am staying within the terms of service. I signed up for unlimited service, which I should get. Had P8 told us that their limited unlimited service was only 3000 minutes a month, we would have kept shopping.

quote:
Kinda off-topic, but how can parents let their kids spend so much time on the phone?

I was a teenager, up till recently. My mom always got on my case for being on the phone for more than 10 to 15 minutes, unless it was important. She'd always say, instead of talking on the phone, just go do something with your friends.

So instead of talking on the phone, my friends and I did stuff. All sorts of stuff, and everyone enjoyed it much more than the phone.

You grew up in a big city, didn't you? I did and I did the same as you, where there were things to do. Try living in the sticks! I'm glad to know where my kids are and what they're doing.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12951762 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:01:22 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12951212 pnh102 :
said by RadioDoc :

said by laserjobs :

What entity legally protects Americans over this issue?
Federal Trade Commission (FTC) and state Attorney General's offices, mostly. This is unregulated service so the FCC isn't much involved except for compiling records for later use in possible rulemakings.
The fact that the service itself is unregulated from the FCC's perspective still doesn't shield any company from abiding by truth-in-advertising laws, no matter what business the company is in. The FTC can still enforce truth-in-advertising laws with regards to companies making claims of "unlimited" service.
--
Hey Fast Eddie... you're next!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12951212 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 16:38:57 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12950874 sunny8294 : Think its time to change our dictionaries, definitions are getting old now. Hopefully, I don't get into same trap as Sherry,(Yeah, currently I am a P8 freedom unlimited customer too). You should write a report to BBB! Their service has been great and everything, but their definition of unlimited is not right and shouldn't be like that. If that is what they mean by unlimited, then they should call it something like "Limited Unlimited 3000 min./month deal or whatever"?!.

Goodluck,
Sunny
--
.:: Sunny ::.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12950874 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:47:32 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12950846 RadioDoc :
said by laserjobs :

What entity legally protects Americans over this issue?
Federal Trade Commission (FTC) and state Attorney General's offices, mostly. This is unregulated service so the FCC isn't much involved except for compiling records for later use in possible rulemakings.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12950846 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:42:03 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12950796 laserjobs :
said by pnh102 :

said by cbrain :

Do any of the ILEC's have similar conditions to their unlimited offerings? Any other VoIP companies?
You can't legally claim something is unlimited and then limit it. That's why many broadband ISPs stopped advertising "unlimited" service awhile ago. If Packet8 is indeed saying their "unlimited" service is limited, then they need to change the way they advertise their service.

What entity legally protects Americans over this issue?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12950796 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:33:30 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12950388 pnh102 :
said by cbrain :

Do any of the ILEC's have similar conditions to their unlimited offerings? Any other VoIP companies?
You can't legally claim something is unlimited and then limit it. That's why many broadband ISPs stopped advertising "unlimited" service awhile ago. If Packet8 is indeed saying their "unlimited" service is limited, then they need to change the way they advertise their service.
--
Hey Fast Eddie... you're next!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12950388 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 14:35:06 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12949742 anon : Try sunrocket... they have a "bottom line" pricing structure for unlimited calling that is much less than others.. even if you were to say, use more then 10,000 minutes a month (is that possible?!?!) its still the same price, seemingly- but read the fine-print of any voip offer and make sure the terms are something you can live with.. even if you did get surcharged (very unlikely due to the way they advertise the service as -bottom-line-pricing-) that they would surcharge from a much lower rate: ie about $17 a month!!! when bought in a "year plan" of $199 per year.

www.sunrocket.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12949742 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:56:03 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12949722 acadiel : While you're at it, file a BBB complaint online at www.bbb.org - I'm sure that they would have a field day with Packet8 doing "deceptive advertising" as well.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12949722 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:53:22 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12949433 lmjh7065 : What happened to the so called 5,000 minute limit P8 tried to institute in the past but backed off the idea?

No one mentioned this yet, but I don't believe they count the actual minutes used but round up instead. They count 1 second as far as I know as 1 minute.

Since light users don't get refunds, high users should not be penalized for "unlimited" service. It's the average that counts.

If P8 wants to save money why don't they (un)forward calls to my number which was cancelled at the end of last October? They cancelled my web access immediately so that I didn't have a chance to do this, even tho I paid in advance for service thru the end of the month.

I no longer think that Packet8 deserves any customers, apparently the way they treat some.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12949433 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 11:57:28 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12949004 laserjobs :
said by pnh102 :

said by pcmeet :

The best way to resolve this problem is to have a 2nd Packet8 line for another $20 a month then you can have up to 10000 minutes a month without worry about Packet8 switching you to business plans, ask them to send you the BPA-410 adapter it is built in 2 lines.
That's silly. You would just be rewarding Packet8's alleged Bait & Switch. There's a reason why high speed Internet providers don't advertise "unlimited" service anymore. If Packet8 is advertising "unlimited" service and not delivering unlimited service, then they are the ones who are committing a crime.

I totally agree with poster who provided the link to the Illinois AG's office. I would also file a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission, given that Packet8 is based in California and the alleged crime occurred in Illinois. This is clearly a case in which Federal jurisdiction would apply.

I have to agree that buying a second line from Racket 8 to get more minutes on a "unlimited" plan is clearly a ludicrous idea. If you advertise unlimited then provide unlimited.

This is what my Lingo account resets to every month:
In plan minutes remaining: 45000
And unless the months get longer this is a true Unlimited Plan]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12949004 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 10:22:42 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12948985 chaud : 3000 min is crazy. With 3 people in the house, and the two kids don't call anyone, we used 1500 min so far this month. How can they put a 3000 min limit, especially if a family has 3 teens. Oh well...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12948985 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 10:19:15 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12948919 MxxCon :
said by cbrain :

Do any of the ILEC's have similar conditions to their unlimited offerings? Any other VoIP companies?
i'm sure any provider that has more expensive 'pay per minute' plans will do this:(
--
[Sig removed by Administrator: Signature can not exceed 20GB]]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12948919 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 10:07:16 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12948873 cbrain : Do any of the ILEC's have similar conditions to their unlimited offerings? Any other VoIP companies?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12948873 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 10:00:45 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12948672 pnh102 :
said by pcmeet :

The best way to resolve this problem is to have a 2nd Packet8 line for another $20 a month then you can have up to 10000 minutes a month without worry about Packet8 switching you to business plans, ask them to send you the BPA-410 adapter it is built in 2 lines.
That's silly. You would just be rewarding Packet8's alleged Bait & Switch. There's a reason why high speed Internet providers don't advertise "unlimited" service anymore. If Packet8 is advertising "unlimited" service and not delivering unlimited service, then they are the ones who are committing a crime.

I totally agree with poster who provided the link to the Illinois AG's office. I would also file a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission, given that Packet8 is based in California and the alleged crime occurred in Illinois. This is clearly a case in which Federal jurisdiction would apply.
--
Hey Fast Eddie... you're next!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12948672 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 09:17:11 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12948324 MxxCon : in my past experience of emailing different companies, i always get faster/better response if my emails are also CC: president@, ceo@, coo@, cfo@, [name of other bosses]@
even if some messages will bounce, keep including those address so that drones will be more responsive and get as many bigwigs into the loop as you can.
--
[Sig removed by Administrator: Signature can not exceed 20GB]]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12948324 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 07:39:23 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12948117 WhyADuck :
said by b1gdr3 :

Did staying within the terms of service occur to you??
Did the idea that companies should actually deliver what they advertise ever occur to you????]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12948117 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 05:26:46 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12948107 WhyADuck :
said by BillRoland :

Not to put a damper on the legal aspect (especially since I agree with WhyADuck about the definition of unlimited), but any legal action is probably going to take much longer than you want it to and may or may not be favorable in outcome. I know that legal action has been threatened at every VoIP company on this forum at one point or another but I don't recall any victories as of yet. Just food for thought.
I don't disagree that the legal process would probably drag out long enough that he'd want to switch providers in the interim. But the beauty of complaining to a state's Attorney General is that if they think the complaint has merit, they will often pursue it and they essentially have all the time in the world and the resources of the state (not to mention that there are competent attorneys working in their office, probably along with a bunch of staff and interns that can do all the legal research and paperwork). That's why companies rarely fight the AG's office (especially if they really are in the wrong), because they know they can't outspend the state and don't have access to anywhere near the state's legal resources.

If you are so disgusted with a company that you feel the need to switch anyway, and if your only other option is to do nothing, why not file the complaint? In most cases it will cost you nothing, and you may in the end wind up getting a cash settlement of some kind. For example, if the user in question is charged a termination fee for canceling the service, there is a very good chance he could get that refunded, along with any signup fees paid and any out-of-pocket expenses incurred in pursuing the claim (this is very much dependent on individual state law, so don't take any of this as a given, but at very least there might be the satisfaction of seeing the company served with a cease-and-desist order so they can't continue to use false advertising).

If it were me, I would personally send my complaint to the AG's office with a copy to the Federal Trade Commission (the FTC complaint can be filed through a web-based complaint form). These agencies do look at individual complaints (especially at the state level) but they also sometimes look at the number of complaints received. So if they start getting a lot of complaints about a particular VoIP company engaging in false advertising and consumer fraud, they would be more likely to go for a really big fine against the company (based on multiple incidents), which would (I would hope) discourage that company and similar companies from pulling the same crap in the future.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12948107 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 05:18:49 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12948106 b1gdr3 : Did staying within the terms of service occur to you??
--
I wasn't born with enough middle fingers.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12948106 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 05:18:33 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12948065 Anaxamander : Their T&C is open to debate - it is REASONABLE for Billy Bob, his 14 children, 3 marital equivalents & amorous Grandpa Cletus to ETERNALLY be on the phone. Similarly, UNLIMITED can be modified to be unlimited domestic, or unlimited local calls, but cannot be modified into "3000 limited UNLIMITED minutes". Before you signed up, 8x8 didn't inquire as to the size of your family before they graciously took your credit card number. Perhaps they should have - to estimate REASONABLE usage, so as to better inform you of contractual obligations.

And while "What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away" does have legal merit, REASONABLE is open to interpretation. Their legal department also screwed up here, the clause they are invoking to change your plan:

12. COMMERCIAL USE. End User agrees that the use of the Service and/or Equipment for activ
*ities other than reasonable personal residential use will obligate End User to pay 8x8's h
*igher rates for business services for all periods of such use, including past periods, in
*which End User used the Service for commercial or governmental purposes.

(*) WARNING 1 long line(s) split

because who determines REASONABLE here? Apparently, this clause lets you essentially argue, "I determine that my personal residential use WAS ENTIRELY reasonable for a family of 6 with cousins, and aunts and uncle flung far and wide. I DECLINE any such obligation to move my account from residential to any other service due to my ALLOWED reasonable assertions." Similarly, you can also argue (thanks to the unspecified nature of this clause), "I determine that a limit of 3000 minutes for my family per month is UNreasonable. I decline any offer to move my service to another plan."

See, their small print can still giveth as well. Granted, their T&C allows them to change the T&C at any time...

Then ramp it up. cc the tv station, BBB, your legislators... Grandpa Cletus...
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12948065 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 04:44:54 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12947952 ecb12 : while i agree with the whole unlimited thing being crap, there has to be a point where p8 can say that's too much, it should be in their TOS though. I personally think that 10k minutes for 20 bucks is crazy, almost as crazy as the stupid 2k plan they want to switch you to.

One question though if it's all teenagers then where is all the LD coming from shouldn't the bf/gf be in roughly the same area and don't most pots lines include all the locals for like 15 bucks a month, so could it be beneficial to get your pots for the kids and only use the p8 for Ld. Might be harder to do but seems like it could work.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12947952 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 03:37:47 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12947845 RadioDoc : Packet8 has a problem here: "reasonable personal residential use" is not defined in their TOS. You could easily parade your teenagers before a judge and prove that these days "personal residential use" with them around is almost a continuous connection. ;)

Seriously though, if they charge you (or induce you to spend) even $1 more because of this they've wandered into a legal tar pit. Be sure they know it. Take screenshots of all of their TOS pages and advertising.

Send a complaint to Lisa Madigan now. Make sure Packet8 knows you did it. And don't forget the FCC, too. Even though they are not regulated like a traditional phone company they are subject to FTC and FCC rules regarding advertising and deceptive practices like bait and switch. »www.fcc.gov/cgb/complaints.html#general

It can't hurt to point out to them that their policies are likely to bring unwanted and unnecessary regulation to the VoIP realm.

Don't let them get away with crap you wouldn't let Verizon or anyone else get away with. Good luck!. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12947845 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 02:49:14 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12947802 Medic63 : Reading this thread about the B.S. P8 is throwing at SLW makes me glad I have Vonage, where incoming calls do not count against my limit (I have the 500 min./month plan).:D
There's just two adults using the phone here, and we don't use the phone that much.

Seriously though, follow through on calling the AG. If enough people do this the VoIP companies will sit up and pay attention.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12947802 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 02:33:14 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12947788 jc100 : Ignore the grammatical errors, it is 230 AM.. sorry.. complaines = complaints... and had emailed the Attorney General.. OK now i feel better.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12947788 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 02:29:28 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12947783 jc100 : Well I'd suggest doing what I did, when I had the same exact problem with highspeed. I have roadrunner, and they started sending out letters, advertising they will charge per GB on service. I said woah, your website says unlimited, and thats what I want. I flooded the Better Business Bureau with loads of phone calls, and boy o boy I talked to Road Runner HQ liek 3 or 4 times... Funny the lady and I got to know each other to the point, of redundancy. She must have dreaded calling me, as she knew my line each and every time. I also had emailed Attorney General... Long behold, I notice either by my or multiple complaines from many customers, there website states Always On and not unlimited internet access. So long story short... Call Attorney General, Flood Better Business Bureau with calls, and keep on it. Pain in the ass yes, but it will at least offer you some remedy, if not just to get it documented. Legal action isnt very viable to spend 25,000 or 30,000 fighting a large company less you can get a class action going... and that could take a while to track down lots of customers. Truth be told, lots of people say "sue" but the fact of the matter is, it isnt that easy, very costly, and takes years. So do my way, and at worst I guess move on.. But flood those 2 agencies. They do work.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12947783 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 02:27:04 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12947674 denzel : [Mod Note: Referral offer removed - Against »Forum Rules - Please read ]

I have been with Lingo for a long time and I am a heavy user too. I spend alot of minutes on talking to my family in Europe. Lingo has an unlimited deal for $19.95 + first month free. They will send you an ATA adapter if you do not have one. The unlimited deal includes US + Canada + 17 west european countries, which is the biggest reason why I went with them.

Good Luck!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12947674 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 01:59:51 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12947416 pcmeet :
said by SLW1 :

Last months usage was....drumroll.....8500 minutes. This month we're already over 5000.
The best way to resolve this problem is to have a 2nd Packet8 line for another $20 a month then you can have up to 10000 minutes a month without worry about Packet8 switching you to business plans, ask them to send you the BPA-410 adapter it is built in 2 lines.

also will be less waiting in line to use the phone, 2 calls at the same time, thinking mass production. :D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12947416 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 01:06:34 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12947290 lmjh7065 : It appears that Packet8 "baited" you with their advertising for unlimited local and long distance (US & Canada) for the unheard of price of $20/month. Then they want to "switch" you to a higher rate "limited" plan. Way to go P8 to win friends and customers.

But, so far no one has mentioned that if you don't like this they will then want to charge you just a measly $59 "disconnection" fee. Way to go P8 to win even more customers and friends.

When I first read about all this, all I can say is that someone in (mis)management should have their bag nailed to a tree.

A sad day indeed for VoIP - shame on you P8.

Hope it all works out well for you - please don't let them get away with this.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12947290 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:44:46 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12947122 Nate425 : PACKET8 INCLUDED FEATURES

UNLIMITED MINUTES

Designed with both residential and business customers in mind, Packet8 allows anyone with broadband (high-speed) Internet access to use their regular phone to make UNLIMITED calls to anywhere in the U.S. and Canada . Packet8 subscribers get worldwide UNLIMITED In-Network calling to other Packet8 subscribers at no extra charge.

Straight from the features list on the P8 website. I don't think the issue should be why the kids are on the phone so much, it should be why isn't packet 8 living up to what they advertise. I think she's got a good case if she wants to pursue it, but I'm no lawyer.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12947122 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:17:06 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12947025 JTY : Kinda off-topic, but how can parents let their kids spend so much time on the phone?

I was a teenager, up till recently. My mom always got on my case for being on the phone for more than 10 to 15 minutes, unless it was important. She'd always say, instead of talking on the phone, just go do something with your friends.

So instead of talking on the phone, my friends and I did stuff. All sorts of stuff, and everyone enjoyed it much more than the phone.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12947025 Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:03:14 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12946948 dipswich : I also note that Packet8's TOS makes them determine that you are using the service for other than "reasonable residential usage." In no way does exceeding a preset number of minutes automatically meet their definition. The inclusion of "sole discretion" doesn't obviate their obligation to abide by a clear and accurate definition.

Packet8 needs to charge their losses to their marketing department for choosing the "unlimited" word and just swallow them, just like many Bells do for a residence with unlimited "local" calling.

I'm not using many minutes at all. I'll loan you some of mine. :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12946948 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:53:49 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12946783 SLW1 : Yeah, I know. I'll still file a complaint while at the same time switching over to another provider.

I guess my thinking is if I don't file a complaint nothing will ever improve. Maybe if there's enough complaints piled up, something will change. It probably won't benefit us 'cause we'll be long gone, but may benefit current/future customers.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12946783 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:28:10 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12946666 BillRoland : Not to put a damper on the legal aspect (especially since I agree with WhyADuck about the definition of unlimited), but any legal action is probably going to take much longer than you want it to and may or may not be favorable in outcome. I know that legal action has been threatened at every VoIP company on this forum at one point or another but I don't recall any victories as of yet. Just food for thought.
--
"Don't steal. The government hates competition."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12946666 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:13:21 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12946403 SLW1 : Here's the response I got from P8 (the same word for word text on both replies they sent)...

**********
Dear customer,
Please note that Packet8 wants to bring your attention to the terms and conditions, where it speaks about the Reasonable Residential Usage. You have many options to include limiting your usage or going onto the Business 2000 plan. Please let us explore these options.
Thank you

***********

Here's what they're referring to in the T&C...

10. PERSONAL USE. 8x8's Service Plans for residential subscribers that offer unlimited minutes of PSTN calls ("Unlimited PSTN Plans") are for the reasonable personal
residential use of End User only. This means that End User is not to resell or transfer the Service or Equipment to any other person for any purpose, without express written
permission from 8x8 in advance. End Users of Unlimited PSTN Plans shall not use the Services for commercial or governmental purposes or for profit or non-profit activities, including, but not limited to, home office, business, sales, tele-commuting, autodialing, continuous or extensive call forwarding, continuous connectivity, fax broadcast, fax blasting, telemarketing or any other activity that would be inconsistent with personal and residential usage. End User agrees to notify 8x8 immediately if usage of the Unlimited PSTN Plans changes from personal residential to business use and subscribe to a business plan. 8x8 reserves the right to immediately terminate or modify the
Services of any End User using Unlimited PSTN Plans if 8x8 determines, in its sole discretion, that End User is not using the Unlimited PSTN Plans for End User's reasonable personal residential use.
********************

Had we know that their unlimited calling plan was only for 3,000 minutes a month, we probably would not of gone with P8. Why do we have to change our calling habits? Are they using the Continuous Connectivity statement to get us or is it the sole discretion? I don't get it. I still see no where in this statement where we'll be switched for going over in minutes, only if they find out we're running a business (we're not).

For those that asked if we still have our POTS line...No we do not...we sent Verizon away a few weeks ago. At the time P8 served all our needs and didn't see a reason to keep the POTS, seeing as we 'had' unlimited calling.

WhyADuck...Bingo! You hit the nail on the head. Thanks for the link to the AG Form (we think Lisa Madigan would have a field day with this). If P8 continues to give us no other option, we will tell them we're getting a hold of our AG's office and switch to Lingo. I have unlimited long distance on the cell phone, they don't have a minute limit on that (son uses the cell phone on weekends)...unlimited long distance off the pots line (which wasn't offered here until recently, but charges over $60 a month),doesn't have limits either. Are they able to get away with this because the FCC does not regulate them?

acadiel...hmmm, large insurance company, huh? Hubby works for one of those in Blm. That's why it was no big deal to get a 807 number...most of our friends are there and everyone the kids calls would have been long distance anyhow (anything outside Podunk...um, I mean Minonk is long distance). So, as soon as we found something with a Blm number, we jumped on it. We go through Mediacom for our cable modem...a few years ago, our only option for non-dialup was Starband. We switched to cable as soon as it became available.

We tried Skype about a year ago...it was so choppy back then. We also had DialPad with the same results...just not phone quality, plus we don't want to be tied to the computer and would rather not get any special phones.

I emailed them back, but I'm guessing I won't hear back until Monday. In the meanwhile, I'll give Lingo a call to see if they have a limited unlimited plan (that's what I'm calling it now). We asked if it would help if we got a couple virtual numbers, which we're not against (we were talking about that so some family can call without LD charges) to keep the freedom unlimited plan. The customer service rep said that each phone number holds a 3000 minute limit, which would bring our account up to 9000 minutes. That's what I mentioned to P8 in the email...we'll see what they say.

You're all a great help!!! What a great forum! So, tell me, is it worth having a premium account here?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12946403 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 22:35:26 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12946377 voiplover : That's 4.5 hours a day. I think that P8 is loosing money on you as a client and I doubt any body at P8 will be able to help for long. If Lingo can give you a local #, I would highly recommend looking into their TOS.
Good Luck.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12946377 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 22:31:09 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12945555 dcurrey : I am with whyaduck on this one.

Do you think this is the consumers are partially at fault. We have allowed these companies to get away with advertising unlimited calling/minutes/access etc for so long and then revoking it in the legal babble, double talking TOS. That that don't care what we do.

The only way to solve this is to DEMAND that it is either truly unlimited or they state what the minutes usage is.

I am sure if CompanyX starts getting 40,000 plus calls and emails a day something might change.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12945555 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 20:25:38 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12945224 WhyADuck : People, people... some of you are not giving such good advice here. The thing to find out is, first, what does a company say in their advertising? If, for example, they have a residential plan and they use the word UNLIMITED in their advertising, then if they are not really offering UNLIMITED service it is false advertising and consumer fraud, and they are lying to potential customers in their advertising. Please do not make excuses for such companies, if they do such things they are slimy companies and hopefully will soon be on the receiving end of actions instituted by the Federal Trade Commission and/or the attorney generals of the various states.

This has been discussed ever since this forum was started and no one disputes that companies have a right to verify that a customer really is using a residential service for residential purposes. But please bear in mind that even a provision buried in the Terms of Service may not necessarily override what is boldly proclaimed in advertising. A long time ago in this country, companies used to promise the moon in advertising and then take it all back in the fine print, and that is why various truth-in-advertising and other consumer protection laws were passed. This does NOT give a customer the right to screw the company by signing up for a residential plan and then using it to run a home-based telemarketing operation, but when the calls really are residential in nature then if the company has advertised "unlimited" service and then tries to pull the sort of things that have been described here, my advice would to be to contact your state's Attorney General post haste. For the original poster, that would be the Illinois Attorney General and the complaint can be started using a form available at this page:
»www.ag.state.il.us/consumers/

What would have really been the final straw for me would be if I requested to be transferred to a supervisor and the person I made that request of failed to do it. My standard response to that is, "Please give me your name and extension number" (wait for them to give it, and try to get any other identifying information you can) "I want to be sure that your company knows which employee caused me to file a complaint with my state's Attorney General, which is what I am going to do as soon as I hang up the phone." You would be surprised how often the employee in question suddenly decides it would be in his or her best interest to escalate the call!

Personally, I think that it is pretty rotten if a particular VoIP company advertises a "lowball" price for "unlimited" service, then fails to deliver what they advertised to the consumer, possibly leaving a negative taste in the mouth of their customers for all VoIP companies. I can't help noticing that the companies that advertise the lowest prices seem to be the ones that generate the most complaints, with maybe one or two exceptions. Anyway, no matter what anyone else may tell you, as far as I know it would be illegal in every state of the union to advertise "unlimited" service and not offer unlimited service. That doesn't mean they can't impose restrictions, particularly on business-related usage, but to arbitrarily tell a residential customer that they are going to be switched to a limited business plan just doesn't fly. So let your state's Attorney General investigate this, and assuming you are telling us all the facts, I suspect the company is going to wish that the employee you spoke to had put you through to a supervisor when you requested it!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12945224 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:39:05 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12945170 laserjobs :
said by digiblur :

said by tlpintpe :

Others may want to jump in here, but before you assume that switching to another company (Vonage, etc.) is the answer to your mega-minute-per-teenager :) dilemma, find out if those other companies have similar policies.

If you hang out on this board long enough (I've been here two years now), you will realize that unlimited isn't really unlimited on most services (regardless of the marketing hype). Read the Terms of Service to see if they use phrases similar to P8. Flags get thrown at some point for users with lots of minutes.

If they were 8000 incoming minutes on VoicePulse or Vonage, they wouldn't care less.

I would agree that the only complaints about unlimited plans are coming from Packet 8 at this point. The other companies seem to care less and probably use averaging in their cost structure.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12945170 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:33:33 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12945138 digiblur :
said by tlpintpe :

Others may want to jump in here, but before you assume that switching to another company (Vonage, etc.) is the answer to your mega-minute-per-teenager :) dilemma, find out if those other companies have similar policies.

If you hang out on this board long enough (I've been here two years now), you will realize that unlimited isn't really unlimited on most services (regardless of the marketing hype). Read the Terms of Service to see if they use phrases similar to P8. Flags get thrown at some point for users with lots of minutes.

If they were 8000 incoming minutes on VoicePulse or Vonage, they wouldn't care less.
--
FWD#64466 - »[Sipura] Make your Sipura Speak! - Step by Step]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12945138 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:29:48 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12944900 tlpintpe : Others may want to jump in here, but before you assume that switching to another company (Vonage, etc.) is the answer to your mega-minute-per-teenager :) dilemma, find out if those other companies have similar policies.

If you hang out on this board long enough (I've been here two years now), you will realize that unlimited isn't really unlimited on most services (regardless of the marketing hype). Read the Terms of Service to see if they use phrases similar to P8. Flags get thrown at some point for users with lots of minutes.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12944900 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:02:29 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12944718 acadiel : Hey, I have a 309-807 number. I work for a certain large local insurance company. :-)

The number is local to me. I've used around 2000 minutes a month, and I haven't a problem. I haven't gotten anywhere near 8000 minutes though.

How much broadband is out there in Minonk? ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12944718 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:40:16 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12944500 IanR : Sherry,

I sympathise with you. Some years ago my daughter hit me up for $450.00 p.m. on a Baby Bell line. (We did indeed have a Dad to daughter chat).

I don't think, however, that P8 is doing anything to you than most other VoIP companies wouldn't do. They all have their costs for each phone call made and while small they do add it and there is no doubt that any VoIP would ultimately call a similar line {Pause here while advocates of Other companies protest, but I believe I am stating a fact).

So how to remedy the problem?

1) With P8:
May i suggest that in talking it through with the correct level at P8 you offer to purchase 2 $20.50 p.m. P8 lines so your usage is kept below a 5K and sometimes 4K p.m. usage?
2) 2 VoIP lines with 2 companies:
Promise to reduce usage going fwd, but adjusting your habits and buy another VoIP service for the family and ensure that usage is balanced out.

I know both "remedies will cost you double what you are paying now, but it seems a reasonable solution.

Another question: Do you still have a POTS line? (from a baby bell). If so make sure than a good number of people "calling into" your house use that line rather than it being counted as usage on a VoIP line.

Unfortunately unlimited by every provider really means don't go crazy. i.e. over 5K minutes per month consistently.

Good luck]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12944500 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:15:06 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12943964 Trimline : I don't think that 8,000 minutes per month is unreasonable considering you have teenagers. That equates to about 5 hours a day on the telephone. I would have suspected 10,000 or more.

I side with you on this. Packet8 is being totally unreasonable with large families. It's time to shop for a new provider.

Good luck!
--
FWD#537129]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12943964 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 17:12:34 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12943951 digiblur :
said by SLW1 :

Here's the scoop....

I called P8 customer service and explained this to them. Apparently, if you hit over 3000 minutes, it starts throwing flags.

Too bad you can't go with VoicePulse or Vonage, they don't even count the incoming minutes. Which is the way it should be since the VoIP carrier isn't terminating the call.

My open access line from VoicePulse($5 a month) is in an area code where I grew up. Friends and family burn that number up with all their technical questions and problems.
--
FWD#64466 - »[Sipura] Make your Sipura Speak! - Step by Step]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12943951 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 17:11:45 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12943863 anon : I had the same exact problem about 8 months ago with Packet8. Ultimately, I ended up leaving. I've been using Broadvoice's $20 bucks a month plan for the past 7 months and have been averaging 5 to 8000 minutes per month. This is between 4 girls and 1 boy, residential use only. Haven't had any problems, and call quality was significantly better than when I had Packet8.

This is a bad business practice on packet8's part. Just thought I'd chime in with my expirience.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12943863 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 17:02:58 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12943813 laserjobs :
said by SLW1 :

Lingo was the only place I didn't look. The last time I did, they didn't have a Bloomington number. They require their own router, don't they? Or, is there a way to get around that with our NetGear router?

No they do not require a router but if you have one you can put the Lingo ATA behind your router or in front of your router. I think if you try them you will be pleased.

Tigerdirect.com has the D-Link DVG-1402S/L 10/100 Mbps 4-Port Lingo Server Broadband VolP Router for free after rebate. If you order directly from Lingo ask someone here for a referral before you sign up at you will get a $25 credit after 90 days.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12943813 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:57:32 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12943764 Test99 : It would certainly be better if all your numbers were local. But, as DracoFelis said, it's not strictly necessary. You could, for example, give each person their own BroadVoice number with unlimited in-state calling for $10 per month. BroadVoice doesn't have numbers available in the 309 area code, so you would still need one local number.

Of course, there's always »QuantumVoice.com . They offer a toll-free number for $42 per month that gives you unlimited incoming and outgoing calls. But I don't know if there are limits on their unlimited service.

Any chance the girlfriends/boyfriends could be persuaded to use »Skype.com or »FreeWorldDialup.com ? That could really cut down on phone usage.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12943764 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:51:24 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12943665 SLW1 : That's what I figured...I'll just frequently resend the messages until they get responded to.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12943665 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:39:39 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12943616 joako : SLW:

It has been my experience that Packet8 "conveniently ignores/looses" messages and that sending them a few copies seems to make the messages "appear" and get responded to.
--
I'm joakimsen and I approve this message. »sveasoft.pifiu.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12943616 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:35:02 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12943519 SLW1 : Lingo was the only place I didn't look. The last time I did, they didn't have a Bloomington number. They require their own router, don't they? Or, is there a way to get around that with our NetGear router?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12943519 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:24:21 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12943463 Nate425 : Just a random though, could you try calling corporate headquarters directly, and asking for Kevin Reid? If he's the head of a department there, they should at least be able to transfer you over to him...just act like you know the guy :) Their number is 1-408-687-4120.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12943463 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:18:11 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12943431 SLW1 : Here's the scoop....

I called P8 customer service and explained this to them. Apparently, if you hit over 3000 minutes, it starts throwing flags.

I requested being transferred to a supervisor...was told that a supervisor cannot overturn/help anything the Receivables dept does and I must take it up with that dept.

I asked to be transferred to that dept...was told that it's hard to get calls in through to them as their lines are always busy (wonder why?). But, the rep gave me the name and email address for the person supposedly responsible over this dept.

So, I email this Kevin Reid at the email address give...guess what...bounced back as undeliverable (tried .com and .net). I ended up emailing receivables@packet8.net again (the same I responded to last night). I guess I'll email them a few times a day till I get a response or get too close to the 4-1 switchover date. Do they respond quicker if you send more emails?

The rep I talked to did mention that we could get a virtual number, which then gives us a total of 6000 minutes a month before setting flags. At our rate though, we'll need two virtual numbers.

So, for anyone wondering, Freedom Unlimited calling=3000 minutes a month. Why don't they just call it Freedom 3000?

Thanks to everyone that's offered their comments so far. I appreciate all the help!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12943431 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:14:33 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12943412 DracoFelis :
said by SLW1 :

I honestly feel like I'm being screwed. P8 is the only service that has any numbers in our area code.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what we can do to keep our Freedom Unlimited account?

We even thought we could go as far as setting up another account and spitting it between the two. I'd rather spend $40 a month on two Freedom Unlimited accounts than $35 on one B2000 account.
As others have said, you might be able to get Packet8 to change their mind, if you politely talk to a supervisor (and explain how your family use really is residential).

OTOH: If you are already OK with getting two accounts, I should point out that you only need a "local number" for INCOMING calls. For OUTGOING calls, any number should work. This means you really only need a local number on ONE account, and it doesn't even have to be an account with good rates for outgoing calls (because you can use an account with a non-local number for outgoing). So you could get one carrier (with a "local number") for your "inbound" line, and a totally different carrier/number for your 2nd "outgoing" line (and the 2nd line does NOT have to be "local" to you, so you can go with any VoIP provider you like for "line 2").

In fact, I do something very similar here. We also have teenagers, so one phone line doesn't cut it. At the same time, we are forced to pay the telco for a costly POTS line, if we want to purchase DSL from them (which is pretty much the only broadband option in our area). So what we do is use our POTS line (which doesn't even have LD service enabled on it) as our main "incoming" phone line, and we also use it for "local" and "toll free" calls. But then we use our Packet8 line (which has a number that is NOT local to us, it's homed in a city 35 miles away) for most of our outbound LD calls.

The result is that we get most of the benefits of two phone lines, even though one line (the POTS one) doesn't do LD, and the other line (the Packet8 one) doesn't have a local number! And remember, any minutes spent on our POTS line (i.e. almost all incoming calls), don't show up as minutes used on Packet8 (which is probably the only reason our family has kept it below 3000 Packet8 minutes per month)...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12943412 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:11:28 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12943246 Nate425 : Try to give 'em a call either very early morning, or late at night...11 o'clock or so your time. Hopefully you won't be on hold forever when you call then.

If the first person you talk to isn't sympathetic, continue on to the supervisor. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12943246 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:53:09 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12943126 digiblur :
said by SLW1 :

Our current account has a Bloomington, IL number (nobody has one for our town).

Who have you checked?

Were most of the calls incoming or outgoing? I don't think it matters with Packet8 though since they count the incoming minutes as minutes used too.
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FWD#64466 - »[Sipura] Make your Sipura Speak! - Step by Step]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12943126 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:41:58 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12942865 laserjobs : Lingo has a number there and should not give you any hassle with minutes used. I checked Sunrocket and Broadvoice but they do not have numbers.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12942865 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:10:21 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12942813 SLW1 : (309)807 is our current number through P8]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12942813 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:04:47 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12942790 SLW1 : Our current account has a Bloomington, IL number (nobody has one for our town).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12942790 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:01:49 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12942777 laserjobs : What area do you need a phone number for? Area code and first 3 digits?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12942777 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:00:19 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12942738 SLW1 : So, when's the best time to call them? Anyone have any experience when they're the best help or I could get better results from them? When's their peak time (during day or evening)?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12942738 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:55:02 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12942724 joako : Right but it is clearly personal use no? Latenight conversations with girl/boyfriends and such? As I said, the the past it was Packet8's policy to determine usage on a case-by-case basis based on calling patterns, not just the number of minutes you use.
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I'm joakimsen and I approve this message. »sveasoft.pifiu.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12942724 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:52:04 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12942713 SLW1 : Quite honestly, we use a lot of minutes and always have.

Keep in mind that I have teenagers in the house before your big gasp (also keep in mind what we were paying for long distance and cell phone over minute usage before going to P8).

Last months usage was....drumroll.....8500 minutes. This month we're already over 5000. I understand it is excessive. Life was easier and cheaper before boyfriends and girlfriends got into the picture. Obviously no business going on here.

For some stupid reason, I thought having teenagers would be easy...I'm now getting smacked upside the head (and pocketbook) for saying that now. I must call my mom to apologize for everything I did as a teen.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12942713 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:50:16 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12942625 joako : In the past it seems Packet8 was very lenient about this and they would deal with it on a case-by-case basis, so if it appears you are not using it for business (IE: making long calls to the same few numbers vs making short calls to many different numbers primarily during business hours).

Packet8 has even stated in the past that if you are using a residential plan for light business usage, it would be acceptable.
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I'm joakimsen and I approve this message. »sveasoft.pifiu.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12942625 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:40:38 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unli http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12942619 Nate425 : I haven't been in that situation, but I would call them and talk to a supervisor (during off peak hours of course) and explain what's going on. Hopefully they'll realize it is better to keep you as a customer, than have you shop somewhere else. It just seems like they should be able to work something out for you...but really, who knows what they'll do.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12942619 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:39:29 EDT Re: [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12942585 Skywise : Well, Sherry in general you'd should take this up with Packet8 and explain to them your situation - also, out of curiosity, how many minutes did your family use in the last few month?

-Sky]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12942585 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:34:50 EDT [Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12942543 SLW1 : I've been lurking this forum since we made the decision to go with P8 in January. So far, we had really good luck and never had to call Customer Service. We had our POTS service disconnected a few weeks ago (due to the horror stories, we didn't even bother going through porting and had no real ties to our old POTS number).

Our reason for going to VOIP was due to our family of 6 breaking the bank in long distance bills and went with the Freedom Unlimited plan...unfortunately thinking the unlimited plan meant unlimited calling. Our account is always in use by someone here.

We get this email from P8's accounts receivable dept saying that as of 4-1, they are going to switch us to the Business 2000 plan because of what they call "Exceeding Normal residential Usage".

We looked under what this Business 2000 plan entails...$35 a month with a 2000 minute limit and then 3 cents a minute afterwards. So, we're going to end up paying more for less. I can get a 2000 minute calling card for less than $35.

We looked under this section 10 they referred us to in the Terms and it looks like they can decide what they deem is normal residental usage and that unlimited calling does not mean unlimited calling. What residental services are they basing their normal limits from? Quite honestly, if they want to be basing normal residental services, they should be basing it on families like us with teenagers in the house. If they don't, they'll be losing lots of customers.

I honestly feel like I'm being screwed. P8 is the only service that has any numbers in our area code.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what we can do to keep our Freedom Unlimited account?

We even thought we could go as far as setting up another account and spitting it between the two. I'd rather spend $40 a month on two Freedom Unlimited accounts than $35 on one B2000 account.

Has anyone else been forced/threatened to the B2000 account? If so, what did you do?

I did email P8, but of course from what I've read out here, it will be a cold day in .... before I'll get a response.

HELP!!!

Sorry for the novel....

Sherry]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12942543 Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:28:43 EDT