Re: just use trillian or gaim in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r12900865 en Sun, 29 Nov 2009 01:58:32 EDT Sun, 29 Nov 2009 01:58:32 EDT Re: just use trillian or gaim http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12917367 anon : It's not really about privacy though, it's about AOL's right to use the message contents.

Everyone should know that IM services are not private. They never have been!

If you use OpenPGP over Jabber you're pretty safe, but the other four IM services are different.

All AOL are really saying now is that they have permission to copy around your messages as if they're AOL's property. So the real outrage is, if you sent work material over it, AOL would have permission to send around your company information. :-)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12917367 Tue, 15 Mar 2005 16:10:58 EDT Re: just use trillian or gaim http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12907590 Pake :
said by Qumahlin See Profile:

said by Pake See Profile:

said by Qumahlin See Profile:

ou Must Agree to these Terms of Service to Use AIM Products
By using or registering for an AIM Product (defined below), you agree to these terms and conditions ("Terms of Service") and the AIM Privacy Policy. You agree to accept notices electronically. Each time you use an AIM Product, you reaffirm your acceptance of the then-current Terms of Service. If you do not wish to be bound by these Terms of Service, you may discontinue using the AIM Products.

Take note of this line which backs up everything I said

Each time you use an AIM Product, you reaffirm your acceptance of the then-current Terms of Service

So EVERYTIME you sign on AIM you are agreeing to whatever the current ToS is...
Hmmmm, would be quite fun to take AOL to court for creating an easy to abuse loophole for themselves.

Maybe the broadband community should team up and try to fight this type of sneakiness. Many game companies (Blizzard, SOE, Mythic to name a few) already make you re-accept their ToS after patches, so it only seems fit that all companies should be required too if any changes occur.
You can't merely take a company to court based on their ToS for a service that is of optional use.
Unfortunately the liberals have taught us that you can take someone to court for anything these days.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12907590 Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:28:37 EDT Re: just use trillian or gaim http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12905197 Qumahlin :
said by Pake See Profile:

said by Qumahlin See Profile:

ou Must Agree to these Terms of Service to Use AIM Products
By using or registering for an AIM Product (defined below), you agree to these terms and conditions ("Terms of Service") and the AIM Privacy Policy. You agree to accept notices electronically. Each time you use an AIM Product, you reaffirm your acceptance of the then-current Terms of Service. If you do not wish to be bound by these Terms of Service, you may discontinue using the AIM Products.

Take note of this line which backs up everything I said

Each time you use an AIM Product, you reaffirm your acceptance of the then-current Terms of Service

So EVERYTIME you sign on AIM you are agreeing to whatever the current ToS is...
Hmmmm, would be quite fun to take AOL to court for creating an easy to abuse loophole for themselves.

Maybe the broadband community should team up and try to fight this type of sneakiness. Many game companies (Blizzard, SOE, Mythic to name a few) already make you re-accept their ToS after patches, so it only seems fit that all companies should be required too if any changes occur.
You can't merely take a company to court based on their ToS for a service that is of optional use.
--
Forum Posts:6000]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12905197 Mon, 14 Mar 2005 08:29:01 EDT Re: just use trillian or gaim http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12905191 Qumahlin :
said by JoeOnSunset See Profile:

I'm always amazed on BBR at these lengthy conversations of the applicability of various pieces of TOS's. The fact of the matter is: the law and case law interprets and construes TOS's and does so differently in different jurisdictions. The terms they add are often disregarded.

Just because they say often, for example, that by using the service you agree to whatever the terms are, even if they've changed since they last time you saw them, doesn't mean it's so. They put that here hoping that later they'll win in court, but often they lose.
Can you give an example of "often they lose"? I am not aware of any major/current court case where a ToS/EULA has been found invalid.

The core reason being if you violate the ToS your not breaking the law so the only applicable punishment is you can be banned from the service, in which case you have no legal recourse as AOL is not legally required to allow you to use AIM.

I've seen this come up at Comcast. We have customer who will violate the ToS, argue with us that they never accepted the ToS or signed anything. Well to bad, you violated it, your service is terminated, go find another provider. If the customer has the money they can attempt to take us to court, but the bottom line is we don't have to offer them the service in the first place so it really doesn't matter if the ToS was invalid or not, they still aren't getting their service back.
--
Forum Posts:6000]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12905191 Mon, 14 Mar 2005 08:28:16 EDT Re: just use trillian or gaim http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12903333 Pake :
said by Qumahlin See Profile:

ou Must Agree to these Terms of Service to Use AIM Products
By using or registering for an AIM Product (defined below), you agree to these terms and conditions ("Terms of Service") and the AIM Privacy Policy. You agree to accept notices electronically. Each time you use an AIM Product, you reaffirm your acceptance of the then-current Terms of Service. If you do not wish to be bound by these Terms of Service, you may discontinue using the AIM Products.

Take note of this line which backs up everything I said

Each time you use an AIM Product, you reaffirm your acceptance of the then-current Terms of Service

So EVERYTIME you sign on AIM you are agreeing to whatever the current ToS is...
Hmmmm, would be quite fun to take AOL to court for creating an easy to abuse loophole for themselves.

Maybe the broadband community should team up and try to fight this type of sneakiness. Many game companies (Blizzard, SOE, Mythic to name a few) already make you re-accept their ToS after patches, so it only seems fit that all companies should be required too if any changes occur.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12903333 Sun, 13 Mar 2005 22:23:26 EDT Re: just use trillian or gaim http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12903001 JoeOnSunset : I'm always amazed on BBR at these lengthy conversations of the applicability of various pieces of TOS's. The fact of the matter is: the law and case law interprets and construes TOS's and does so differently in different jurisdictions. The terms they add are often disregarded.

Just because they say often, for example, that by using the service you agree to whatever the terms are, even if they've changed since they last time you saw them, doesn't mean it's so. They put that here hoping that later they'll win in court, but often they lose. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12903001 Sun, 13 Mar 2005 21:39:59 EDT Re: just use trillian or gaim http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12902549 Qumahlin : ou Must Agree to these Terms of Service to Use AIM Products
By using or registering for an AIM Product (defined below), you agree to these terms and conditions ("Terms of Service") and the AIM Privacy Policy. You agree to accept notices electronically. Each time you use an AIM Product, you reaffirm your acceptance of the then-current Terms of Service. If you do not wish to be bound by these Terms of Service, you may discontinue using the AIM Products.

Take note of this line which backs up everything I said

Each time you use an AIM Product, you reaffirm your acceptance of the then-current Terms of Service

So EVERYTIME you sign on AIM you are agreeing to whatever the current ToS is...
--
Forum Posts:6000]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12902549 Sun, 13 Mar 2005 20:44:47 EDT Re: just use trillian or gaim http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12902213 Zyniker : Actually, you are perfectly fine so long as BOTH you and whomever you are talking to use Trillian (encrypted communication). That is why I use Trillian and my friends use Trillian (save my friends who use Mac...). I do not like AIM spying on my communications...I would rather use other chat networks, but AIM is by far the 800-lb gorilla in the chat industry...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12902213 Sun, 13 Mar 2005 20:02:48 EDT Re: just use trillian or gaim http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12901255 Pake :
said by Qumahlin See Profile:

said by jayperkins See Profile:

Yes, but if you updated since then, you are under the new TOS. You agree to it on the download. They can force compliance by just telling everyone there is a big security hole and they must update. When you do, you are under the new TOS.
incorrect again. As soon as you connect to the AIM network you are under the new ToS based on the fact that the ToS itself states that it is subject to change.
I think the only way you can be subject to whatever a new ToS says is if they show you the new ToS and agree to it, since it is considered a legal binding contract.

So unless you are shown the new ToS before you sign on, they are still limited to the old ToS you agreed to.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12901255 Sun, 13 Mar 2005 16:47:47 EDT Re: just use trillian or gaim http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12900977 pcscdma : They could have lawyer-speaked it better than that. I'm not sure if it says - "The following terms and conditions apply to all users who either registered for AIM services" or "downloaded AIM updates or software on or after February 5, 2004." as if it was 2 different parts separated by an "or". They could have meant it as a complete sentence. There is just too many "or"s to parse for me. And what if someone registers or downloads after that date and talks to somebody who has not downloaded a new version or happened to register before that date?
--
"The bad news is that we are told that Michael Powell, one of Washington's better bureaucrats, is calling it quits today after four years at the helm of the Federal Communications Commission." - WSJ 2005/01/21]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12900977 Sun, 13 Mar 2005 16:01:20 EDT Re: just use trillian or gaim http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12900865 jayperkins : Interesting. If that is true, why do they say

"The following terms and conditions apply to all users who either registered for AIM services or downloaded AIM updates or software on or after February 5, 2004."

Curious. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12900865 Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:46:18 EDT Re: just use trillian or gaim http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12900806 Qumahlin :
said by jayperkins See Profile:

Yes, but if you updated since then, you are under the new TOS. You agree to it on the download. They can force compliance by just telling everyone there is a big security hole and they must update. When you do, you are under the new TOS.
incorrect again. As soon as you connect to the AIM network you are under the new ToS based on the fact that the ToS itself states that it is subject to change.
--
Forum Posts:6000]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12900806 Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:35:00 EDT Re: just use trillian or gaim http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12900684 jayperkins : Yes, but if you updated since then, you are under the new TOS. You agree to it on the download. They can force compliance by just telling everyone there is a big security hole and they must update. When you do, you are under the new TOS.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12900684 Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:15:20 EDT Re: just use trillian or gaim http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12899974 Qumahlin :
said by yabos See Profile:

Legally they can't change the agreement that you have previously agreed to. So if you downloaded the program before Feb 3rd like the article says then they shouldn't be able to monitor your IMs. Technically they can but legally they can't.
Incorrect. It's a ToS agreement, it can be changed at anytime providing the changed agreement is provided to you somewhere...which it is.
--
Forum Posts:6000]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12899974 Sun, 13 Mar 2005 13:18:41 EDT Re: just use trillian or gaim http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12899903 nixen :
said by knightmb See Profile:

said by zipjay See Profile:

just use trillian or gaim or some other program that allows you to connect to their network lol
If you can connect to their network they can monitor it or record it. Doesn't matter which client you use, unless those using 3rd party programs are immune?
You've obviously never seen a trillian conversation where encryption has been enabled but the key-negotiation got klotzed. I wish them real luck in snooping that.

Trillian isn't the only AIM'ish app that does encryption, either. GAIM let's you use installed SSL certificates.

-tom
--
"Some people have morals, standards and ideals about quality, but I'm an American: I couldn't care less." --Tony Pierce (paraphrased)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12899903 Sun, 13 Mar 2005 13:11:12 EDT Re: just use trillian or gaim http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12899502 yabos : Legally they can't change the agreement that you have previously agreed to. So if you downloaded the program before Feb 3rd like the article says then they shouldn't be able to monitor your IMs. Technically they can but legally they can't.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12899502 Sun, 13 Mar 2005 12:10:07 EDT Re: just use trillian or gaim http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12899437 IlovFriday : If you chat with another trillian user across AOL's network you can enable a secure connection that would block them from monitoring you.
--
See My Setup: »My Setup (Small Business, Bed Room, and 9mi Link)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12899437 Sun, 13 Mar 2005 12:01:52 EDT Re: just use trillian or gaim http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12899411 macmouse : Well, maybe only the new versions have the updated legal agreement but there is nothing technologically preventing them from recording every message that passes through their servers.

The only real way to ensure your not being snooped is to enable encryption. I'm not sure if I would trust their own system using certificates, because they could (theoretically) include a back door in it to send clean copies (using their own key) for logging. Now if you used encryption in gaim/trillian, then there is no conflict-of-interest to do that. As well as having the source to back it up with gaim.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12899411 Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:57:24 EDT Re: just use trillian or gaim http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12899346 theman23 :
said by knightmb See Profile:

said by zipjay See Profile:

just use trillian or gaim or some other program that allows you to connect to their network lol
If you can connect to their network they can monitor it or record it. Doesn't matter which client you use, unless those using 3rd party programs are immune?
Well according to the article, it says only those who DOWNLOADED the AIM program, so I'm guessing those of us who use 3rd party apps, like Trillian, are immune.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12899346 Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:45:44 EDT Re: just use trillian or gaim http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12899338 knightmb :
said by zipjay See Profile:

just use trillian or gaim or some other program that allows you to connect to their network lol
If you can connect to their network they can monitor it or record it. Doesn't matter which client you use, unless those using 3rd party programs are immune?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12899338 Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:43:53 EDT just use trillian or gaim http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12899323 zipjay : just use trillian or gaim or some other program that allows you to connect to their network lol]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12899323 Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:42:34 EDT