Comments on WaveIP? in Wireless Service Providers http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r12892033 en Sun, 29 Nov 2009 02:30:13 EDT Sun, 29 Nov 2009 02:30:13 EDT Re: Comments on WaveIP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13193566 totalaccess : So what model numbers of which products are you using? I am interested in deploying 900 MHZ now at several towers to gain non line of sight access. I already carry 2.4 GHZ and 5.8 GHZ systems and have seen different results from different vendors.

Really wish someone would make a 900 mhz mini PCI card!
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Deploying Global Solutions: »www.wirelessworlds.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13193566 Sun, 17 Apr 2005 16:16:49 EDT Re: Comments on WaveIP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13122496 gator17 : OK, Here is what I have so far on my waveip install. I took the RSU (Residentual Subscriber unit) out in my car placed it on the dash and drove around town. My city is about 2.5 miles in diameter and no matter where I went I got a signal never below -72 I was not trying to align the unit in the car I just had it sitting on the dash. I drove further out as I got further out about 3 to 3.5 miles it seemed hit or miss in some spots. Drove further 4 to 5 miles and got a great signal again never below -70 still leaving the unit on my cars dash. I was very happy. My total output is 11 dbi antenna and 21 on the power was 32 dbi for now I am excited to turn it up after other iissues have been resolved. Because as I said I am fighting some sort of interference issue. I might need a band pass filter or I may even have to go to the 5 mhz gear instead of 20mhz. This weekend I will try the OSU which is the outdoor subscriber unit and will post my results on these distances, Just remember this is just radiosignal readings I will post throuhghput readings once my issues are resolve. Curt Gordy the WaveIp rep has been with me ever step of the process which has been great because I could not do it without him. I will provide pics once I go back up the tower. First impression of the gear overall is WOW/Cool this 900 stuff really works.
(The above was posted on an earlier post)

As of today, I am having interfernece issues that I am working through becasue of the Vertical Omni I used. I wanted to get away cheap as possible and I am now paying the price, by having to climb the tower 6 times which I dont like. I replaced the AP with a horizontal ap with built in antenna and got good signal with no packet loss so I had to order a 11.5 db horizontal omni. As posted earlier in this post the 20 mhz gear uses most of the spectrum and with me using an vertical omni it was even worse. The horizontal 11 db omni I beleive will work and I will have more to comment on. If I didnt have interference this would have been up and running in less than 5 hrs with a great range.

Scott ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13122496 Fri, 08 Apr 2005 17:35:06 EDT Re: Comments on WaveIP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13119886 cgordy : Around 400 for the indoor (self install), 500 for the outdoor and 675 for the HSU with dual processor]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13119886 Fri, 08 Apr 2005 12:17:10 EDT Re: Comments on WaveIP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13118462 wifi repair : Ahh so they pulled a Frankenstein. Am I right in seeing these things are around $650-$700 per SU? I can Get new alvarion 900 setups for under $350.

George]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13118462 Fri, 08 Apr 2005 08:56:46 EDT Re: Comments on WaveIP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13116279 cgordy : The WaveIP solution days take the benifits of the .16a mac and apply this functionality to the .11 phy. This allowed them to provides the security, q.o.s. and mac effeciency of the .16a standard to a reasonably priced product. We have had this product in the field for two years and could not be happier.

The 20Mhz 900 gear does use all but 6mhz of the spectrum to provide 8Mbps. Even so this is much more effecient then the .11 products. This product is made for specific applications.

The .16 phy they are working with now will provide much more throughput on much less spectrum. The benifit to all of WaveIP's customers is the experience with deploying the .16 mac for over 2 years. It has given them the ability to move forward with the .16 phy much quicker than expected.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13116279 Thu, 07 Apr 2005 23:14:04 EDT Re: Comments on WaveIP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13114756 cmaenginsb : George, I think you need to read the spec sheet where you will find these entries:
Wireless PHY Interface Proprietary based on IEEE 802.11b
Wireless MAC Interface Proprietary based on IEEE 802.16a

WaveIP is actually using different parts of both standards. The 802.11b PHY deals with modulation schemes which affect data rates and channel sizes. This is readily apparent if you look at the channel sizes and data rates used by WaveIP compared to anything coming from a true WiMax vendor.

The WiMax based stuff is using more efficient schemes and therefore able to pack more date in a given channel width. A Wimax based 900Mhz radio for example would get you the same data rates as WaveIP in about 1/3 the channel width. Which is where everyone other than the 802.11b manufacturers are going. Since they are also not using WiMax for the PHY you lose the OFDM which is the main thing WiMax bases it's NLOS claims on. With WaveIP, to do NLOS you are using essentially repeater APs located on customer sites. (And of course the benefits of 900Mhz)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13114756 Thu, 07 Apr 2005 20:43:53 EDT Re: Comments on WaveIP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13114681 cwu46 : 2 Things

1. WaveIP USES THE ENTIRE 900 MHz CHANNEL to get the 11 Mb data rate - they make "smaller channel width" products, but then the data rate is scaled back accordingly

2. According to a conversation w/ Ran from several months ago, WaveIP DOES NOT incorporate ARQ on the 900 MHz product line

Have fun...

-Charles]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13114681 Thu, 07 Apr 2005 20:35:36 EDT Re: Comments on WaveIP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13111717 wifi repair : In regards to it being based on the 802.11b I took a look at there site and it said this

"Next generation 802.16a Mac layer
GigAccessTM 900 delivers the highest throughput (8Mbps ethernet usable throughput) by implementing the IEEE new 802.16a MAC layer, which was designed specifically for a Point-to-Multipoint wireless systems.
The 802.16a MAC layer has a sophisticated and very efficient resources management mechanism that can handle dozens of subscribers without wasting precious RF resources for polling or subscriber's questioning.
Using a more efficient MAC GigAccessTM 900 delivers more bandwidth to more customers over the same spectrum and infrastructure which means more revenue for the same total cost of ownership.
Triple layer applications like high quality streaming video combined with VoIP and data connections are now available.
"

Anyone have some real pricing on these things? they look interesting.

George
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(sig was too long)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13111717 Thu, 07 Apr 2005 14:05:11 EDT Re: Comments on WaveIP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13102571 flamedog : "Which of course...from what I hear the new WaveRider gear and firmware took a few pages from WaveIP's book and has very similar features."

I have used Waverider gear for close to 3 years...but I'm not sure what you're referring to about Waverider's new gear or firmware being like WaveIP's?? Could you elaborate please.

Waverider gear is not changing its PHY layer or MAC layer in any way that approximates WaveIP's implementation--or I'm completely out of touch...in which case, feel free to correct me. Yes they now have a POE outdoor model and have plans to increase throughput to 6 or 8Mbps later this year--but that will involve a hardware upgrade...not just a software/firmware tweak.

Having installed 900MHz for a long time now it should be noted that what my backyard looks like and what your backyard looks like are two completely different scenarios. NLOS is SOOOOO SOOOOO SO dependent on each individual installation. What produces an excellent clean signal quality at one house, might be completely unusable only 200 yards away at the neighbor's. My point being--I have NLOS installs at 4 miles with indoor antennas. And I have installs at 2000 feet that require a 10dBi external yagi. Just want to caution anyone reading about 1.5 or 2 mile NLOS claims...it all depends.

My real question is about the WaveIP gear. And specifically, is there anything about their product (other than the basic laws of propagation at 900MHz) that improve on Waverider's ability to slice through trees and clutter? I will hopefully be speaking with Curt Gordy tomorrow to learn some more. My guess is that the sacrifices (subjective opinion) made to leverage 802.11b PHY technology...will reduce WaveIP product's ability to perform in truly challenging NLOS conditions. I'd love to be surprised though.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13102571 Wed, 06 Apr 2005 13:10:40 EDT Re: Comments on WaveIP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12903802 jkmonroe : cmaenginsb:

yeah yeah. youre right. looks like the coding modulation is based on the 802.11 standard.

see, i learned something today :)

- jason]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12903802 Sun, 13 Mar 2005 23:38:12 EDT Re: Comments on WaveIP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12903513 polk5 : gator, your feed back is much appreciated. Please give us an update after the setup. I have a Island with a bunch of camps on them and If I can get what they claim then the numbers would work out fine. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12903513 Sun, 13 Mar 2005 22:50:55 EDT Re: Comments on WaveIP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12903462 wispman : A little of topic but.... That is what sells a product. Service. I know some people have a hard time getting ahold of Tony at Demarc Tech (thats who I use), but I don't. I usually get him on the phone at 8-11pm. I'll tell you one thing, I won't buy anything else from Ascendance. I called and was asking about the antenna alignment tool. I wanted to know if higher or lower numbers are better. He said higher was better and the scale was 0-100. I said "It's at 157 right now". Then he said, It must be 200 them. My point is, good tech support is the best. Even if I have to try for a day or two to get someone "good" on the phone, it's better than calling and getting the first idiot who answers, who gives out false information.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12903462 Sun, 13 Mar 2005 22:40:05 EDT Re: Comments on WaveIP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12902025 gator17 : I have WaveIP 900 although I have been slow on my deployment not because of the gear but because of me not getting answers I needed from my dsl provider. So far the gear seems very simple. The NMS system is pretty straight forward. I have spoke to several WISP that have deployed it and they all told me that I should not have any problems with 2 to 2 1/2 indoor installs. One wisp had it on a 60 ft tower and was getting 1 1/2 mile indoor installs. Another had pretty good results as well and was also selling VOIP and has not had any troubles. Of course the distances are kind of a loaded answer because of terrain and other items. The cost are a little higher but the features are nice as stated in previous post. The radios are small approx 7x5x2 that is both the indoor and outdoor making them not such an eyesore. I am putting my antenna up on the wawter tower on Tuesday and will have more details on the gear a couple days after. One thing they do have is Curt Gordy, not just another sales guy, he is with you through the deployment, this means alot to me being a new startup WISP. on occasion I have spoken to him at 1:00 am ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12902025 Sun, 13 Mar 2005 19:41:07 EDT Re: Comments on WaveIP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12900441 wispman : How the price coming out of Isreal and what not?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12900441 Sun, 13 Mar 2005 14:29:21 EDT Re: Comments on WaveIP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12900086 John Galt :
said by hextex See Profile:

If you want to know....call Curt Gordy from mwinfra.com he installs it everyday.
I have had discussions at length with him. He had ready, reasonable answers to all my questions. He didn't "push" product, just provided answers.

I also talked with Ran, one of the sales engineers in Israel. He was walking around the streets of Tel Aviv while we were talking. He referred me to Curt, for a more stable phone connection.

Curt was the one who provided the contact here in Oregon so that I could visit a deployed system. My understanding is that there is a Government deployed system there in support of the chemical weapons burners that was recently built. It will be interesting to hear about that, too.
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A is A]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12900086 Sun, 13 Mar 2005 13:34:09 EDT Re: Comments on WaveIP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12899535 cmaenginsb : jkmonroe, I suggest you visit their site and look at the radio specs. They all use an 802.11b PHY. The PHY defines things like modulation which effect the channel size. Had they incorporated a different PHY with more efficient modulation (like Aperto for example who uses 16QAM) They would have been able to get the same amount or more throughput for 6Mhz of channel width. The reason for using an 802.11b PHY was that it simplifies their R&D and reduces the cost of the product which explains why it's so inexpensive compared to it's features.

Many manufacturers do this, building a base radio that runs on an intermediate frequency and then either stepping or or down to the final frequency. This allows you to offer products in multiple bands but get the most out of economies of scale.

What WaveIP is doing is exactly the idea that Charles Wu was talking about, take a standard PHY, tweak and modify the MAC etc for your needs and put out a much better product than what can be done with that standard. However since you are using parts of a standard you don't have as much R&D time and maybe even are able to use EOS for getting compents as well.

As to 802.11b not working at 900Mhz, while it isn't a part of the standard, I can go out today and buy an downvertor that lets me take an 802.11b radio and run it in that band. Most of the technologies are frequency independant, until you have a band with special requirements (like the 5.4 band)

While I like WaveIP and certainly appreciate the bang for the buck when compared to other gear like it, it isn't state of the art when it comes to PHY which in conjunction with the marketing hype of 802.16a is why they are making an OFDM based replacement.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12899535 Sun, 13 Mar 2005 12:13:56 EDT Re: Comments on WaveIP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12898626 hextex : If you want to know....call Curt Gordy from mwinfra.com he installs it everyday.

He will not just try to sell you stuff that he doesnt have a clue about like sales reps at Tessco and other places. He knows what he is doing when it comes to WaveIP.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12898626 Sun, 13 Mar 2005 03:44:00 EDT Re: Comments on WaveIP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12898526 John Galt :
said by jkmonroe See Profile:

Also, check for Gator17 or something or other. I think he just deployed WaveIP.
I IM'ed him...he did not respond yet.

I was interested in his experience.
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A is A]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12898526 Sun, 13 Mar 2005 03:08:08 EDT Re: Comments on WaveIP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12898523 hextex : I switched because the CPEs are a little cheaper, they also have indoor CPEs (which works better then I thought they would) and the outdoor CPEs include the PoE, something I had to either make or buy for my Alvarion units. The QoS is also very nice, the network management, while programmed in Java, runs a little slow, but it works very nicely. I also wasn't getting the bandwidth I would like to have out of the Alvarion 900.

Which of course...from what I hear the new WaveRider gear and firmware took a few pages from WaveIP's book and has very similar features.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12898523 Sun, 13 Mar 2005 03:07:01 EDT Re: Comments on WaveIP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12898297 superdog :
said by hextex See Profile:

Several LARGE companies are using WaveIP and has been very successful for them. We just junked our Alvarion 900 for the Wave IP 900 and so far we love the features and reliability.
OK, I give?, why did You switch?. I always thought Alvarion units were the "Rolls Royce" of radios?:uhh:
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»www.wavecrazy.net]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12898297 Sun, 13 Mar 2005 01:51:09 EDT Re: Comments on WaveIP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12898269 hextex : Just because no one is talking about them...doesnt mean its a bad sign...several LARGE companies are using WaveIP and has been very successful for them. We just junked our Alvarion 900 for the Wave IP 900 and so far we love the features and reliability.

Dont knock it until you try it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12898269 Sun, 13 Mar 2005 01:44:26 EDT Re: Comments on WaveIP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12898059 jkmonroe : Not personal experience, just thoughts here:

If their technology works as advertised, they will become the front-runner in carrier grade equipment for wireless. Their specs make Canopy look like Wi-Fi.

To respond to jarosoup, what interference are we talking about? Self-interference, or just a busy spectrum? There is a huge difference there, the first being that you can engineer around a busy spectrum. Their synchro should minimize self-interference, if not, then uh oh for them.

To respond to cmaenginsb, I dont think its possible for 900MHz equipment to be based on 802.11b. Different standard, com layer protocol, and mac layer protocol. The carrier standard is the same (DSSS) but you can use DSSS to transmit/receive any RF signal. It does appear to take a huge chunk of spectrum in order to get 8MBps.

I do not own their equipment quite yet. I am going to be very interested to see how this turns out. My small 120 subscriber WISP recently recieved a lot of attention in town which is attracting mucho-moolah offers for expansion, and WaveIP is currently at the top of my list. I am not an expert on 900MHz equipment ... yet :) Correct my mistakes if any.

Also, check for Gator17 or something or other. I think he just deployed WaveIP.

I look forward to hearing your report from a first hand view of their stuff.

- Jason]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12898059 Sun, 13 Mar 2005 00:52:42 EDT Re: Comments on WaveIP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12897847 cmaenginsb : Their equipment is based on 802.11b even for the 900mhz band so it probably takes a good portion of the spectrum which would be why a slower solution would work (uses less spectrum or is FHSS)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12897847 Sun, 13 Mar 2005 00:04:09 EDT Re: Comments on WaveIP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12894465 jarosoup : I've heard that this gear can't handle interference very well at all. I helped a guy out a year ago that had it and he ended up replacing it with Airspan 900MHz which didn't have any problems with whatever interference his area had. Airspan at 900 is pretty nice if you can afford it and don't need more that 3Mb of throughput.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12894465 Sat, 12 Mar 2005 13:04:13 EDT Re: Comments on WaveIP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12894416 polk5 : I met these guys 3 or 4 years ago at a show down here. They seem to be very enthusiastic about the business and building gear. The claims of the gear is very impressive. I would like to hear what you find. I thought for sure someone here had tried their gear out. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12894416 Sat, 12 Mar 2005 12:55:58 EDT Re: Comments on WaveIP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12894353 superdog : It seems no one has used them?, NOT a good sign?:uhh:
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»www.wavecrazy.net]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12894353 Sat, 12 Mar 2005 12:47:46 EDT Comments on WaveIP? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12892033 John Galt : Other than the cost(!)...are there any issues with the WaveIP gear?

I am most interested in the 900 gear, but any information will be appreciated.

I am going to see a deployed system next week, and thought that I would give the forum an opportunity to speak up.

I will post the results of my discussion with the WISP here.
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A is A]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12892033 Sat, 12 Mar 2005 01:47:24 EDT