Re: I wonder... in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r11099473 en Wed, 25 Nov 2009 14:39:09 EDT Wed, 25 Nov 2009 14:39:09 EDT Re: I wonder... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11141304 anon : Oops again, DavidA.

> I'm not sure what you could mean by "logical fallacy,"
> since the question "how many will die of brain cancer"
> contains no statement. It's a question.

The logical fallacy is the "leading question", one of the standard errors any student of logic 101 learns. Here's a link, since you value them so highly:
»washington.uwc.edu/about/faculty···cies.htm

You fail to understand what a "leading question" is, if you think science is based upon them. Perhaps you likewise feel the question, "how many people will die this year from alien invaders from Zim?" is another serious topic for research?

Point 2, the mere suggestion that non-ionizing radiation causes cancer shows a weak understanding of the underlying science, and makes me doubt your credentials of a BA in Physics...I have a BS in Physics myself. Did you skip E&M totally? Radio waves don't contain enough energy to break molecular bonds...even if you're standing directly under a 100,000 Watt broadcast tower. Enough power can cause heating...but not ionization.

Another link for you:

In the area of biological effects and medical applications of non-ionizing radiation approximately 25,000 articles have been published over the past 30 years. Despite the feeling of some people that more research needs to be done, scientific knowledge in this area is now more extensive than for most chemicals. Based on a recent in-depth review of the scientific literature, the WHO concluded that current evidence does not confirm the existence of any health consequences from exposure to low level electromagnetic fields


»www.who.int/peh-emf/about/Whatis···ex1.html

In short, you're selling superstition-- not science. After you prove the existence of cold fusion and perpetual motion machines...come back and tell us how the question of cancer from wireless routers should be taken seriously.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11141304 Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:25:50 EDT Re: I wonder... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11141063 anon : TO AnonGuy101:

Wow, there are a couple of things I'd like to say to your response.

1) re: subject matter:

Yes, there is an inverse relation to frequency and power. That doesn't mean that conditions detrimental to a human brain cannot exist under real world conditions. One thousandth of "way too much" may still be "enough" to cause harm. And remember that chronic low-level exposure *can* have effects on living systems while being simultaneously difficult to simulate in short-term studies. But this question is for two sorts of folks to answer, and not us:

- those doing experiments under controlled conditions (labs)
- epidemiologists (after the fact)

Why not us? Because we're a pair of lurkers on a message board, too damned lazy to even post links to already-existing literature on the subject.

2) re: science:

You make two statements, as follow:

"the very statement 'I wonder how many will die of brain cancer' is a sterling example of a particular logical fallacy"

...and then:

"leading questions such as 'how many will die?' are based on superstition, not science"

I'm not sure what you could mean by "logical fallacy," since the question "how many will die of brain cancer" contains no statement. It's a question.

I'm also not quite sure what issue you have with leading questions. In my opinion, every single question ever answered by science has been a leading question. Isn't every hypothesis formulated as "I believe x to be true?" Can you get any more "leading" than that (see further discussion below)?

Honestly, I was never taught that leading questions were the stuff of superstition. Instead, I was taught that leading questions can taint experimental results. In other words, if I believe the moon is made of cheese, and I cannot conceive otherwise (and especially if a cheese company is paying to send me there), then I am more likely to design experiments that confirm this and to massage data to fit my pre-conceived notion. I have a stake in the results, and I lack the vision to see an alternative hypothesis.

The way science combats such bias is NOT by batting away honest questions by labelling them "superstition." Instead, science invites everyone in the world to examine the same hypothesis. If enough motivated people with varying biases design experiments to test that hypothesis, eventually (we hope) a repeatable experiment emerges that either supports or undermines it.

But you have to start with a hypothesis. Otherwise, what is being tested?

The question "How many people will die of brain cancer" is, in my humble opinion, supremely scientific. Why? Because it asks for something quantifiable ("how many individuals"), and definable ("deaths" attributable to "brain cancer," where both death and brain cancer are pretty clearly definable). It also makes no a-priori assumptions, since the result can be zero. Sounds like a hypothesis that can be tested!

On the other hand, if you *were* to make a *truly* leading question -- one that contains an a-priori assumption -- it might look like this:

- for the moon-made-of-cheese: "What kind of cheese is the moon made of?" (assumption: the moon *is* made of cheese)

- for our brain cancer study: "What kind of cancer is this radiation causing?" (assumption: the radiation *is* causing cancer)

There, I would see your problem with the latter hypotheses: it is based on an assumption that may be false (time to "pooh-pooh?" the question? Why no! Time to check that assumption as a separate hypothesis!).

So what got you riled up?

Perhaps you assume that the poster is saying people *are* going to die of brain cancer. But the question, as posed, admits to an answer of "zero." How many will die? Zero! Or maybe fifty out of every million. Or maybe one. Who (here on this thread) knows? It has to be tested.

And it has been, according to your post. So let's have some links, baby! Post 'em, I double-dog-dare you!

--David A.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11141063 Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:59:11 EDT Re: I wonder... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11113556 IGotThePower : Me? I'm in life sciences...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11113556 Sat, 21 Aug 2004 04:05:34 EDT Re: I wonder... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11099473 anon : Well, "David A", you should realize that the very statement "I wonder how many will die of brain cancer" is a sterling example of a particular logical fallacy. It definitely should be "pooh-poohed" as you put it-- with good reason.

Certainly there are higher-order harmonics. But, there's an inverse relationship between their frequency and the power they contain. Thats the reason your brain doesn't fry every time two radio stations interfere with each other...sure, it generates harmonics all the way up the scale. But the total power drops sharply as you go up.

The folks doing the measuring and the studies have seen no evidence of biological damage. Given that, leading questions such as "how many will die?" are based on superstition, not science.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11099473 Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:39:27 EDT Re: I wonder... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11079577 yock : You may very well be right, however I don't think the poster has your credentials.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11079577 Tue, 17 Aug 2004 17:47:22 EDT Re: I wonder... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11078111 anon : RE: brain cancer:

Don't forget frequency: AM and FM more or less go right through us. Some higher frequencies don't and might cause damage. It's not all about the power level.

Also, the waveforms matter. With digital signals, there may be harmonics in higher frequencies than the "rated" frequency, simply because the signal is not necessarily a pure sine wave (does anyone involved with the standards know what the harmonic frequencies might be?).

Oh, and then there's interference. Two sets of transmitters in the same space may interfere to create yet more harmonics and any number of frequencies. One of those just might be tuned to warp your DNA.

Measurement is the difference between theory and reality. Don't pooh-pooh the ones asking about brain cancer. Let them do the studies.

--David A.
BA, Physics, Reed College

PS: Worry is optional. So is ignorance.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11078111 Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:13:00 EDT Re: I wonder... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11055351 pcscdma : Actually I think it is 4 watts Effective Isotropic Radiated Power. This means that you can have a kilowatt transmitter as long as you attenuate the hell out of the signal.
The highest power for AM radio stations is 50,000 watts. The highest power allowed for a new FM radio tower is 100,000 watts. It is usually less because the FCC determines the power output for it. There are some FM stations that are higher than 100kW because the FCC limited the power after the station went on the air. If they move the transmitter then they have to go back to 100kW or less depending on how far they move it.
--
The Intel Prescott. One step closer to 50,000 watts of clear channel power!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11055351 Sun, 15 Aug 2004 00:46:47 EDT Re: I wonder... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11051102 ewitte5 :
said by yock See Profile:
said by IGotThePower See Profile:
How many will die of brain cancer?
Where the hell are you getting that? Wireless equipment is FCC limited to 1 watt. You get bombarded by much more than that from AM and FM radio everyday. Do YOU have brain cancer?


Which IMO is why we have problems with signal levels :) They are not allowed to do it right.

Eric]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11051102 Sat, 14 Aug 2004 13:40:41 EDT Re: I wonder... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11050995 yock :
said by IGotThePower See Profile:
How many will die of brain cancer?
Where the hell are you getting that? Wireless equipment is FCC limited to 1 watt. You get bombarded by much more than that from AM and FM radio everyday. Do YOU have brain cancer?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11050995 Sat, 14 Aug 2004 13:24:37 EDT I wonder... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11050642 IGotThePower : How many will die of brain cancer?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,11050642 Sat, 14 Aug 2004 12:32:18 EDT