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Comments on news posted 2008-12-15 08:08:53: With Google being public enemy number one to cable and phone companies for their positions on network neutrality, broadband competition, and unlicensed White Space spectrum, they've been a constant target of attacks coming from phone and cable indust.. ..

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Dogfather
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA

1 edit
Cox used to do this back in the very early CDLP @Home days

We used proxy servers for edge caching and it was great (and optional).

Meanwhile it's sad what passes for journalism these days.

Mr Matt

join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL
·Comcast
·Embarq

 More ISP B. S.

The ISP's are following the usual M. O. Blame the companies hosting the webpages. Users of the Google website are using the internet for it's intended purpose. Short transactions.
1) Customer requests a connection to Google's homepage.
2) Google downloads homepage.
3) Customer uploads request to Google.
4) Google downloads requested information.

At no time is Google streaming data as in TV over IP or Music/Voice over IP.

What are the ISP's complaining about. As I see it the fact that Google handles a large number of short transactions per day is a thorn in the ISP's side. The incumbent ISP's want you to pay for your connection to the internet and not use it. In this case the ISP's are wearing their pig suits.


dec15

@anonymouse.org

from:
amigo_boy See Profile
Richard B See Profile

Just the Facts

Who's painting who as the "bad guy" here? Can't you just report the news vs how you want people to interpret it?


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
·Colbanet

reply to Dogfather
Re: Cox used to do this back in the very early CDLP @Home days

Luckily, Google's proposed solution doesn't involve any kind of proxying. Users just get routed to the local cache server colocated in an ISP's facility instead of going out over the net. The cache server itself worries about getting the content over the net.

It's a great idea.

Another solution that the big ISPs scoff at is public peering. Google peers at TorIX in Toronto. All traffic to Google, YouTube, etc. on ISPs that connect to TorIX (and most CLECs do, see »torix.net/peers.php) can peer with Google and effectively offload all Google-related transit.

rradina

join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO

Are ISPs worried?

I don't think this has anything to do with network neutrality. In my opinion, ISP's are worried because of competitive issues. If two ISPs compete for customers and Google strikes a deal with one and not the other, one ISP now has a couple of advantages:
    • Better customer experience for Google content
    • Frees interconnect bandwidth (may improve customer experience for other content)

Of course the potential flaw in my thinking is to consider ISPs are in direct competition. Many folks don't have a choice for broadband.


dec15

@anonymouse.org

reply to Mr Matt
Re: More ISP B. S.

said by Mr Matt See Profile :


What are the ISP's complaining about. As I see it the fact that Google handles a large number of short transactions per day is a thorn in the ISP's side. The incumbent ISP's want you to pay for your connection to the internet and not use it. In this case the ISP's are wearing their pig suits.
This is so untrue. ISPs want to ensure solid customer experience with performance and regular speed increases. Prices for broadband have remained constant while performance and speeds have steadily increased year over year. The major complaints around ISP actions are from a extremely small fraction of very vocal users that feel they are entitled to unrealistic unlimited speed and unlimited usage which do not combine together with any service.

This is just more mob inciting reporting.

Desdinova

join:2003-01-26
Gaithersburg, MD

"...extremely small fraction of very vocal users that feel they are entitled to unrealistic unlimited speed and unlimited usage which do not combine together with any service."

You mean the folks like me who purchase service promising six megs down and two megs up 24/7 but then get lambasted and capped for actually trying to USE six down and two up for 24/7? Hey, it's real simple: if the network can't handle that kind of traffic, fine, then don't sell it to me.


pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast

This Doesn't Violate Network Neutrality

Google is doing the right thing for its users here by ensuring that its service is delivered to its customers as quickly as possible.

However, I'd be more worried that this new thing Google is doing (if it is true) is more sinister:

»www.theregister.co.uk/2008/12/12···visited/
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Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty


dec15

@anonymouse.org

reply to Desdinova
Re: More ISP B. S.

said by Desdinova See Profile :

You mean the folks like me who purchase service promising six megs down and two megs up 24/7 but then get lambasted and capped for actually trying to USE six down and two up for 24/7? Hey, it's real simple: if the network can't handle that kind of traffic, fine, then don't sell it to me.
Not the folks that purchase 6M and get 12M of service for the majority of their browsing experience. It is the entitled few that purchase 6M and download 100's of DVDs, Blueray and more content than they can possibly consume and then share it with millions of people that they do not even know.

Kearnstd
Elf Wizard
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ

reply to pnh102
Re: This Doesn't Violate Network Neutrality

it is also helping the ISPs if all those youtube videos are being delivered with in the grid it means there is no cost to the ISP for what goes over their own network. and the ISP that is most google and youtube friendly would likely gain customers.
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TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast


3 edits
 Lessig abandons Net Neutrality stance

A more interesting part of this WSJ story is that Professor Lessig from Stanford, the darling of the "Internet should be Free" and the anti-telco crowd, has switched positions on Net Neutrality:
»online.wsj.com/article/SB1229292···065.html
But Lawrence Lessig, an Internet law professor at Stanford University and an influential proponent of network neutrality, recently shifted gears by saying at a conference that content providers should be able to pay for faster service. Mr. Lessig, who has known President-elect Barack Obama since their days teaching law at the University of Chicago, has been mentioned as a candidate to head the Federal Communications Commission, which regulates the telecommunications industry.

The shifting positions concern some purists. "What they're talking about is selling you the right to skip ahead in the line," says Ben Scott, policy director of Free Press, a Washington-based advocacy group. "It would mean the first part of your business plan would be a deal with AT&T to get into their super-tier -- that is anathema to a culture of innovation."

But some of those who advise the new president on technology have changed their view on network neutrality. Stanford's Mr. Lessig, for one, has softened his opposition to variable service tiers. At a conference, he argued that carriers won't become kingmakers so long as the faster service at a higher price is available to anyone willing to pay it.

"There are good reasons to be able to prioritize traffic," Mr. Lessig said later in an interview. "If everyone had to pay the same rates for postal service, than you wouldn't be able to differentiate between sending a greeting card to your grandma versus sending an overnight letter to your lawyer."

Microsoft, which appealed to Congress to save network neutrality just two years ago, has changed its position completely. "Network neutrality is a policy avenue the company is no longer pursuing," Microsoft said in a statement. The Redmond, Wash., software giant now favors legislation to allow network operators to offer different tiers of service to content companies.

Yahoo now has a digital subscriber-line partnership with AT&T. Some have speculated that the deal has caused Yahoo to go silent on the network-neutrality issue.

An AT&T spokesman said the company should be able to strike any deal it sees fit with content companies. Yahoo said in a statement that carriers and content companies "should find a consensus on how best to ensure that Americans have access to a world-class Internet."

Richard Whitt, Google's head of public affairs, denies the company's proposal would violate network neutrality. Nevertheless, he says he's unsure how committed President-elect Obama will remain to the principle.

"If you look at his plans," says Mr. Whitt, "they are much less specific than they were before."
Looks like 1 of Obama's advisers on the internet and a possible FCC commissioner has rethought his position concerning paying for better & faster service. Bye bye Net Neutrality under Obama!! WOW, Lessig is starting to sound like a spokesperson for AT&T & Comcast while speaking the words of AT&T's past CEO about content providers paying the ISPs for their traffic.

I guess Obama has already fallen in line with the wishes of the telcos and the cable companies.
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devnuller

join:2006-06-10
Hollis, NH

reply to Kearnstd
Re: This Doesn't Violate Network Neutrality

said by Kearnstd See Profile :

it is also helping the ISPs if all those youtube videos are being delivered with in the grid it means there is no cost to the ISP for what goes over their own network. and the ISP that is most google and youtube friendly would likely gain customers.
I don't think this violates any NN principals. As stated before it is just CDN like and something I think they were already doing with YouTube.. As far as "no cost to the ISP" that is far from the truth. The major cost of delivering traffic is in the last 50 miles or so and CDNs don't address that. This just cuts out some of the national elements which are a smaller percentage of network infrastructure costs.


swhitney2003
I can't drive 55.
Premium
join:2003-06-13
NH
clubs:
reply to Desdinova
Re: More ISP B. S.

Get yourself a T3 line then. Residential broadband is not meant to be used 24/7 at full capacity.


wenter99
Alpha Male
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Albuquerque, NM
What is Google Now, Anyway?

I liked Google better a few years ago when they were just the fastest and best search engine available. What kind of a commercial monster has this outfit grown into?

jester121
Premium
join:2003-08-09
Lake Zurich, IL
·surpasshosting
·ViaTalk

reply to rradina
Re: Are ISPs worried?

And if you're a local ISP struggling to compete, good luck getting Google's attention to set up a CDN on your network -- so your customers get slower service than the incumbent ISP.

Network neutrality is a lot like environmentalism -- everyone thinks it's a good idea but at what cost?


Mike
Premium,Mod
join:2000-09-17
Pittsburgh, PA
clubs:
reply to wenter99
Re: What is Google Now, Anyway?

yeah they completely lost my interest when they started changing the logo for special events. too much bloat.


wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace

join:2004-08-07
New York, NY
·Verizon FIOS
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·RoadRunner Cable
·BroadVoice

reply to Desdinova
Re: More ISP B. S.

said by Desdinova See Profile :

Hey, it's real simple: if the network can't handle that kind of traffic, fine, then don't sell it to me.
The network can handle it fine, you just need to be paying for a higher class of service. Residential service is oversubscribed for a reason, and that is to keep the costs low. If you actually want to use 20+Mbps 24/7 I suggest you consider a T3, however depending on where you live be prepared to spend a couple thousand per month on it.
--
Комитет государственной безопасности


amigo_boy

join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
·Cox HSI
·magicjack.com


1 edit
reply to dec15
Re: Just the Facts

said by dec15 :

Who's painting who as the "bad guy" here? Can't you just report the news vs how you want people to interpret it?
Amen. DSLR is a great site. But, it's not a great place for "getting the news." The front page should be renamed Karl's blawg. There's not even an attempt to present the news without "spin."

If this had been about "leaked" details of government surveillance, we wouldn't hear a peep about how the leaker may have selfish motives. Or, how such surveillance is consistent with existing US law (like it, or not.).

Mark

nasadude

join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
·Comcast

reply to TKJunkMail
Re: Lessig abandons Net Neutrality stance

said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

A more interesting part of this WSJ story is that Professor Lessig from Stanford, the darling of the "Internet should be Free" and the anti-telco crowd, has switched positions on Net Neutrality:
»online.wsj.com/article/SB1229292···065.html
....
if the article is wrong on the basic premise of the story about google and net neutrality, why should a reader believe their characterization of Lessig's position is correct?


TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast

said by nasadude See Profile :

said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

A more interesting part of this WSJ story is that Professor Lessig from Stanford, the darling of the "Internet should be Free" and the anti-telco crowd, has switched positions on Net Neutrality:
»online.wsj.com/article/SB1229292···065.html
....
if the article is wrong on the basic premise of the story about google and net neutrality, why should a reader believe their characterization of Lessig's position is correct?
Who said the WSJ article is wrong? Karl?

And anyway, they quoted Lessig directly in his own words. So even if you don't buy the WSJ story and their slant on the subject, I doubt they lied about what he said.
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My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?
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