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Comments on news posted 2008-06-04 10:47:12: Oklahoma City says they've launched "the largest city owned and operated municipal Wi-Fi mesh network in the world. ..

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Matt
Take me down to the paradise city
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join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
 Good Implementation for WiFi

This is a good use for large-scale WiFi. The number of users is known and it has a specific purpose than can be planned and engineered to support.


KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
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join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
And it snuck in under the radar and for a very low budget considering the size and scope of the project, plus it has very real applications for the city that will save them money long term.

Kudos.


wifi4milez
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Was this the best use of the money however?

While this type of implementation is certainly better than most, I still question if it was the best way to spend the cities money. My main issue is that wifi has a very limited range, and requires multiple access points to work properly. I have a hard time believing that this network covers the entire 555 square mile area, especially for such a "low" cost.

On the other hand, I can almost guarantee that the whole 555 square mile area is covered by "cellular" service, and likely 3G at that. Would a better solution have been for each municipal worker to be issued a laptop card instead? The city could simply encrypt the traffic using a VPN back their central servers, and the infrastructure (cell towers) is already in place. I suspect that they could have worked out a much better deal with a wireless provider, AND they wouldnt be responsible for maintenance of the outside plant and so forth.

The bottom line is that I think the wifi system will be useless unless the officer/operations worker/etc. is sitting right underneath one of the access points. My feeling is this is $5M down the tubes, and take a guess who paid for it!...........
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MarkyD
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Oklahoma City, OK
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1 edit
said by wifi4milez See Profile :

While this type of implementation is certainly better than most, I still question if it was the best way to spend the cities money. My main issue is that wifi has a very limited range, and requires multiple access points to work properly. I have a hard time believing that this network covers the entire 555 square mile area, especially for such a "low" cost.

On the other hand, I can almost guarantee that the whole 555 square mile area is covered by "cellular" service, and likely 3G at that. Would a better solution have been for each municipal worker to be issued a laptop card instead? The city could simply encrypt the traffic using a VPN back their central servers, and the infrastructure (cell towers) is already in place. I suspect that they could have worked out a much better deal with a wireless provider, AND they wouldnt be responsible for maintenance of the outside plant and so forth.

The bottom line is that I think the wifi system will be useless unless the officer/operations worker/etc. is sitting right underneath one of the access points. My feeling is this is $5M down the tubes, and take a guess who paid for it!...........
I disagree with a number of your statements. As someone with first-hand knowledge of how this system is set up, I can tell you the coverage is VERY good. Bandwidth is adequate in almost all areas for them to do what they need to do.
Aircards for everyone would prove to be very costly in the long term...the monthly recurring cost alone would be brutal. This network can be maintained with a minimal amount of administrative effort and tax dollars.
I think it's a GREAT use of resources.

Another problem with aircards is available bandwidth, especially when you're using a VPN tunnel. AT&T 3G coverage in OKC is spotty at best. Sprint Rev A is the only other option, and their coverage here is not fantastic, either.
Edit: By the way, the AP's are ALL OVER THE PLACE. I have no idea how this was done for 5 million, but there are a TON of the APs on light poles all around town.


NOCMan
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join:2004-09-30
Flower Mound, TX
reply to KrK
Re: Good Implementation for WiFi

They apparently snuck in some big brother as well.


MarkyD
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said by NOCMan See Profile :

They apparently snuck in some big brother as well.
yes...that part I don't like at all.


jinjimbob
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reply to NOCMan
Video cameras yes, more cities should do this.


KrK
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reply to NOCMan
The Cameras they refer to are things like traffic cameras measuring traffic density and cameras at lights to help determine efficient patterns of light changes for maximum traffic flow amd easing congestion. They are not red light cameras or speed cameras and the like.....

I guess though that the use of security cameras will grow, watching public areas like parks, sporting venues and the like.

This isn't necessarily bad.
--
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wifi4milez
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reply to MarkyD
Re: Was this the best use of the money however?

said by MarkyD See Profile :

said by wifi4milez See Profile :

While this type of implementation is certainly better than most, I still question if it was the best way to spend the cities money. My main issue is that wifi has a very limited range, and requires multiple access points to work properly. I have a hard time believing that this network covers the entire 555 square mile area, especially for such a "low" cost.

On the other hand, I can almost guarantee that the whole 555 square mile area is covered by "cellular" service, and likely 3G at that. Would a better solution have been for each municipal worker to be issued a laptop card instead? The city could simply encrypt the traffic using a VPN back their central servers, and the infrastructure (cell towers) is already in place. I suspect that they could have worked out a much better deal with a wireless provider, AND they wouldnt be responsible for maintenance of the outside plant and so forth.

The bottom line is that I think the wifi system will be useless unless the officer/operations worker/etc. is sitting right underneath one of the access points. My feeling is this is $5M down the tubes, and take a guess who paid for it!...........
I disagree with a number of your statements. As someone with first-hand knowledge of how this system is set up, I can tell you the coverage is VERY good. Bandwidth is adequate in almost all areas for them to do what they need to do.
Aircards for everyone would prove to be very costly in the long term...the monthly recurring cost alone would be brutal. This network can be maintained with a minimal amount of administrative effort and tax dollars.

Here is why I disagree. Oklahoma City currently has 1020 police officers. Lets assume that 85% of them are on street patrol, which gives you 867. Now, lets assume that the total number of "other" employees of the city who would use this system (fire department, ordinance, etc.) is another 900. This means you have a total of 1767 people who will be using the network. Sprint charges a standard list rate of $39.99 per month per laptop card (they would certainly provide the actual cards for free with this kind of volume). On top of that, Sprint (and all other carriers) offer corporate, or volume, discounts to customers who have a large number of devices. Lets assume that in this case it would be 15%. This means the cost per user (per month) would be $33.99. Multiply that by the number of users (1767) and you get $60,062 per month. The $5 million that the city spent on their own network (which they have to constantly maintain and upgrade!) would provide 83 years of managed service from Sprint! As I said before, the wireless carrier is responsible for all the upgrades, maintenance, etc. If the wireless cards fail, Sprint repairs or replaces them. If towers need more bandwidth, well you get the point. The point is that for the same cost the city spent to just to start this network, they could have paid for almost a century of future proof technology. Was it a good deal? I think not.
--
Have YOU thanked a soldier today? If not, think about doing it as you speak ENGLISH this memorial day. God Bless America, and God Bless our troops.


KrK
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reply to wifi4milez
This isn't wasted money. It's up and running and working.

It's been tested and people are impressed.... Plus the ongoing costs are low and administration costs are low.

This will save the city money and provide them with great real time data. It's perhaps one of the most effective use of a Muni-Fi idea to date.

Examples like police information, paperwork in the field etc and monitoring traffic flow have already been stated, but there's more applications that can be brought on over time;

Meter reading..... Water flow.... Storm water and flood control realtime monitoring ... Smog monitoring... etc

This network has a lot of pluses, and the cost savings will more then cover it's operational costs.
--
"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)


TKJunkMail
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reply to wifi4milez
said by wifi4milez See Profile :

While this type of implementation is certainly better than most, I still question if it was the best way to spend the cities money. My main issue is that wifi has a very limited range, and requires multiple access points to work properly. I have a hard time believing that this network covers the entire 555 square mile area, especially for such a "low" cost.

On the other hand, I can almost guarantee that the whole 555 square mile area is covered by "cellular" service, and likely 3G at that. Would a better solution have been for each municipal worker to be issued a laptop card instead? The city could simply encrypt the traffic using a VPN back their central servers, and the infrastructure (cell towers) is already in place. I suspect that they could have worked out a much better deal with a wireless provider, AND they wouldnt be responsible for maintenance of the outside plant and so forth.
You make a good point. They probably could have done a nice deal with a 3G provider for about the same cost. But at least this WiFi rollout made more sense than most.
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firephoto
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reply to wifi4milez
Going with a service provider means going out on bid which means going out on bid repeatedly so others have a chance in the future and being at the mercy of the provider when they decide to use new equipment. It also means an account per device, not per person.

iansltx

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reply to wifi4milez
Good point, though I'm not sure where you got the $39.99 from. Though even at $10 or $20 higher per month it still would take a LONG time to amortize the cost of the WiFi network.

As far as bandwidth goes, what characterizes "adequate" on the OKC muni system? A megabit? Two? More? Less? Would be interesting to find out. Would also be intresting to see how much each employee uses per month data-wise. More than 5GB?

Also, if the city had instead used mobile broadband cards, Sprint would have had to beef up their cell sites with extra T1's (which the monthly fees wuld pay for) to add capacity and keep the network running well. Guess who that benefits? Everyone else using the Sprint network. Sounds good to me, who of course can't use the muni WiFi network since it's city-only.

Or the city, since they're only looking at a small coverage area, could cut a deal with CricKet, who could probably give them service for even less per month in such large volumes. Maybe even free aircards, too. Again, the monthly fees would allow the commercial carrier to upgrade their network and provide a higher level of service to everyone.

But what's done is done. Now to amortize the cost of the wireless network over what's basically forever in the tech world. Though in ten years the network will be antiquated in the face of 4G+ technologies, or appliations that require more bandwidth than the current setup can handle.


KrK
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reply to wifi4milez
said by wifi4milez See Profile :

Lets assume that in this case it would be 15%. This means the cost per user (per month) would be $33.99. Multiply that by the number of users (1767) and you get $60,062 per month. The $5 million that the city spent on their own network (which they have to constantly maintain and upgrade!) would provide 83 years of managed service from Sprint!
Your argument is filled with a number of assumptions on #'s of users, usages, equipment for free, discounts, and pricing.... But let's forget all that and just point out your math is incredibly far off.

That's not 83 years. It's 83 months. So assuming all the other assumptions were correct, it still means in only 7 years more money would be wasted being paid to Sprint in fees then the entire cost of this network.... and the sprint idea wouldn't cover things like meters, real-time monitoring, and other advanced usages.
--
"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)


KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
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join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
reply to TKJunkMail
I seriously doubt that.... Especially with their caps and broadband charges and rate increases. Oh it would be a great fat contract for somebody--- and sheer waste for the tax payer....


wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace

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reply to KrK
said by KrK See Profile :

That's not 83 years. It's 83 months.
You are correct, I did the math wrong (you see I do admit when I am wrong!). However, what will the ongoing costs of the wifi network be? As the other poster stated, Sprint (or whomever the provider is) is responsible for all tower upgrades. As new technology comes out (LTE, Wimax, etc.) the carrier is responsible for implementing that. How long will wifi be viable in this current implementation? Lets assume that in 5 to 10 years (at most) all the outdoor equipment will need to be replaced, and all the back-hauls will need to be upgraded. The city will then need to drop another $5m into the system just to keep it current.

I think there are valid points for both arguments. However, I think cities in general are not set up to be service providers. They certainly needed to hire additional people to manage this new network, and as things get more complex that will continue. There is something to be said for outsourcing technology, especially since it puts the onus of keeping the technology current on the vendor instead of the taxpayers.
--
Have YOU thanked a soldier today? If not, think about doing it as you speak ENGLISH this memorial day. God Bless America, and God Bless our troops.


Jodokast96
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reply to KrK
said by KrK See Profile :

That's not 83 years. It's 83 months.
Glad someone here knows how to count.


KrK
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reply to wifi4milez
said by wifi4milez See Profile :

I think cities in general are not set up to be service providers. They certainly needed to hire additional people to manage this new network, and as things get more complex that will continue. There is something to be said for outsourcing technology, especially since it puts the onus of keeping the technology current on the vendor instead of the taxpayers.
In this case though the city isn't providing service to anyone other then itself, so it's really like an internal network.

As to an outside vendor having to bear the costs of maintenance, upgrades, expansion, this is all true points... but a business doesn't work for free. These costs would be passed back to the city in the form of rate increases or usage charges.... they certainly aren't going to just do it for free....
--
"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)


wifi4milez
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reply to Jodokast96
said by Jodokast96 See Profile :

said by KrK See Profile :

That's not 83 years. It's 83 months.
Glad someone here knows how to count.
I freely admit I made a mistake, however my argument is still valid.
--
Have YOU thanked a soldier today? If not, think about doing it as you speak ENGLISH this memorial day. God Bless America, and God Bless our troops.


wifi4milez
Big Russ, 1918 to 2008. Rest in Peace

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reply to KrK
said by KrK See Profile :

As to an outside vendor having to bear the costs of maintenance, upgrades, expansion, this is all true points... but a business doesn't work for free. These costs would be passed back to the city in the form of rate increases or usage charges.... they certainly aren't going to just do it for free....
Of course not, but since the taxpayers are paying for this network anyway why not let someone else deal with the headache?
--
Have YOU thanked a soldier today? If not, think about doing it as you speak ENGLISH this memorial day. God Bless America, and God Bless our troops.
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