TKJunkMail
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4 edits |  There will be more prosecutions: law is clear
More and more there will be prosecutions both in the US and elsewhere for using people's wireless routers/APs without their permission. And as more and more people and also the police become aware of the laws prohibiting this, prosecutions will be more successful. When actually caught in the act, it becomes easier to get evidence because the impounded laptop will provide the evidence of guilt.
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bent
not broken
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join:2004-10-04
Loveland, CO
clubs: | Probable Cause?
So being outside with my laptop is now probable cause? Give me a fing break. |
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ylen131
join:2000-02-09
Canoga Park, CA
1 edit | reply to TKJunkMail
Re: There will be more prosecutions: law is clear
law may be clear, but gl catching them
In usa i dont' think they can search your laptop just because you stand outside of the building, this happen in uk |
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ylen131
join:2000-02-09
Canoga Park, CA | reply to bent
Re: Probable Cause?
not in usa, but in uk maybe, different country, different law. |
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Joe2982
@tn.charter
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Did you guys forget about the Patriot Act?  Thank you very much Bush. I thought USA was supposed to be a free country.  |
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DaveNJ
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1 edit | said by Joe2982:Did you guys forget about the Patriot Act? Thank you very much Bush. I thought USA was supposed to be a free country. Did you know about politcal correctness, or the "limiting of free speech" thats seems to add to it.
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ylen131
join:2000-02-09
Canoga Park, CA
| reply to Joe2982
said by Joe2982:Did you guys forget about the Patriot Act? Thank you very much Bush. I thought USA was supposed to be a free country. even with patriot act, you can't search someone with out a probable cause or a warrant |
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bent
not broken
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join:2004-10-04
Loveland, CO
clubs: | reply to TKJunkMail
Re: There will be more prosecutions: law is clear
I think that the majority of people who leave their WAPs open wouldn't have the first clue that someone was using their connection, much less how to document it so that it would stand up in court. |
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TKJunkMail
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| said by bent  :I think that the majority of people who leave their WAPs open wouldn't have the first clue that someone was using their connection, much less how to document it so that it would stand up in court. If they get the offender with the laptop in his hand and before he can erase any traces, they have all the proof they need. Also, they can subpoena the ISP records and have further proof there.
But, obviously, you will catch very few in the act. But the point is highly publicising the consequences of those you do catch, thereby scaring off many many more.
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ylen131
join:2000-02-09
Canoga Park, CA
| said by TKJunkMail :said by bent :I think that the majority of people who leave their WAPs open wouldn't have the first clue that someone was using their connection, much less how to document it so that it would stand up in court. If they get the offender with the laptop in his hand and before he can erase any traces, they have all the proof they need. Also, they can subpoena the ISP records and have further proof there. But, obviously, you will catch very few in the act. But the point is highly publicising the consequences of those you do catch, thereby scaring off many many more. subpoena isp records? hmm and what are they going to show? When you connect to router, your outbound ip is same as person that is next to the router, so i am not sure how isp help in prosecution |
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Camelot One
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join:2001-11-21
Sarasota, FL
clubs:
| reply to ylen131
Re: Probable Cause?
Well you are half right, you can't search without probable cause. The patriot act DOES allow them to search without a warrant though.
And even on the probable cause side, it's not a judge deciding what constitutes probable cause, but rather the LEO.
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john1290
join:2003-12-06
Reynoldsburg, OH
| reply to TKJunkMail
Re: There will be more prosecutions: law is clear
I live in the US. There are always about 3-5 wide open wireless routers around me that I can pick up inside my house. (Most with default admin passwords) If I wanted to be REALLY sneaky I could spoof their MAC address and do whatever I wanted/go anywhere and be totally safe. But I only use my powers for good.  |
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ylen131
join:2000-02-09
Canoga Park, CA
| reply to Camelot One
Re: Probable Cause?
said by Camelot One :Well you are half right, you can't search without probable cause. The patriot act DOES allow them to search without a warrant though. And even on the probable cause side, it's not a judge deciding what constitutes probable cause, but rather the LEO. wrong about leo, he may decide but at the end it's still up to the judge to let the evidence in or not |
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jmuskratt
join:2000-11-21
New Orleans, LA
| Yes, but when it comes down to the word of Johnny Law Enforcement and Mr. Little Punk h/\x0r, whom do you think the 60-year-old judge and his conception of the Internets is going to believe?
However, when prosecutors get access to a 50 hour day, unlimited resources, and boundlessly cooperative cops and witnesses, perhaps you'll see more convictions. As it stands, I think most ADAs would rather a few drug convictions than one of a 19 year-old stealing internet. |
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vpoko
Premium
join:2003-07-03
Jamaica Plain, MA
| reply to bent
For all we know the officer could have asked the guy what he was doing, and believing he was doing nothing wrong the guy might have said "freeloading". It would seem to me like it would be hard to get a conviction otherwise: how could they prove the attempt was unauthorized. Maybe it was a public WiFi spot or maybe it belonged to his friend.
Actually, if this type of stuff is going on, how CAN someone designate their WiFi AP to be public? I doubt these kinds of things will hold up in court much. It'll probably be dismissed on the same grounds that a tresspassing charge would be: it was never posted that the AP is private. |
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bmn
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| reply to TKJunkMail
Re: There will be more prosecutions: law is clear
said by TKJunkMail :If they get the offender with the laptop in his hand and before he can erase any traces, they have all the proof they need. That assumes that the person can't disconnect or remove the wireless card quickly. Once that's done, it becomes hard to prove the person illegally connected.
Also, they can subpoena the ISP records and have further proof there. ISP records won't help if the person is browsing from behind a router because the IP address is shared among multiple computers.
But, obviously, you will catch very few in the act. But the point is highly publicising the consequences of those you do catch, thereby scaring off many many more. And that's basically what it boils down to... These arrests are more showboating to force ceterrance than anything. |
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manfmmd
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Earth
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2 edits | said by bmn :ISP records won't help if the person is browsing from behind a router because the IP address is shared among multiple computers. You are forgetting about the index.dat for IE and browser cache for other browsers that will 'tell' where you have been on the internet.
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ylen131
join:2000-02-09
Canoga Park, CA
| said by manfmmd :said by TKJunkMail :ISP records won't help if the person is browsing from behind a router because the IP address is shared among multiple computers. You are forgetting about the index.dat for IE and browser cache for other browsers that will 'tell' where you have been on the internet. you are assuming cops can figure out whos internet wifi you were using, if go outside my parents office i have access to 10 of them, hard to track whos belong to who |
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manfmmd
Premium
join:2003-01-14
Earth
clubs:
| That's true, in the end, it's a waste of time considering that there are more important things that cops should be doing, but that has never stopped them from giving me a ticket in the past. 
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Camelot One
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join:2001-11-21
Sarasota, FL
clubs:
| reply to ylen131
Re: Probable Cause?
said by ylen131 :wrong about leo, he may decide but at the end it's still up to the judge to let the evidence in or not If you are CHARGED, a judge has the power to decide if the LEO violated the law in obtaining the evidence. If the search is found to be illegal, any evidence obtained relating to the charge cannot be presented in court AGAINST YOU. However, because the law allows the LEO to search with "reasonable suspicion" rather than "probable cause" if the crime can in any way fall under those in the Patriot act, the requirements are much much lower than you'd think. Also, the "can't use it" rules only apply to the person who's rights were violated due to the illegal search, not anyone else.
Example.....if an FBI agent received an anonymous tip that my roommate was selling dope, he could claim it "reasonable" the funds were going to fund terrorist, and thus use the Patriot Act to enter and search our apartment without our knowledge, tap the phones, computers, etc. Ultimately if my roommate were charged, a judge would get to decide if the anonymous call was enough "reasonable suspicion" for the search and tap. However, if the search and tap were to reveal evidence against me, even if completely unrelated to the target of the original search, say....pirated movies on our common use server, it could be used against me in court even if the search were found to be illegal.
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