 maartenaElmoPremium
join:2002-05-10
Orange, CA
kudos:1 | And P2P users will ramp up their VPNs The entertainment industry is slowly driving P2P activity to 100% encrypted traffic. Once it is there, it is going to be virtually impossible to track users, and once that happens it will also become much easier for users to break the law without being caught.
They are digging their own graves with this approach. The answer is not rigging everything with more DRM (which in my opinion is a MUCH more compelling reason to pirate than the money) so you can only play your legal movie on a limited number of devices.
I have no problem paying for movies. But I want to be able to play that movie on my TV, AND my iPhone while on a plane, AND on my laptop while in a hotel, AND on the backseat DVD player for the kids, AND on the Xbox in the bedroom. I pay for the movie, I want to be able to use it WITHIN my household any way I see fit.
Guess what, they only method that allows such a scenario.... is pirated materials, as they don't have restrictions and/or DRM. We live in a fluid, digital world these days, NOT in a world where we were restricted by physical media.
The entertainment industry should be offering movies in a digital format without DRM. DRM is cracked within hours after a movie/bluray release anyways, so why even bother?
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"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" |
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| Actually, from a technical standpoint, a VPN won't help here. A VPN only keeps your traffic safe while it's in transit, but it has to come out somewhere. For example, I can use my work VPN to connect to my work network via an encrypted tunnel, but that's a point to point connection. Bittorrent, by its nature, uses many connections to many places to get files, and those connections often change during the course of a download. Setting up multiple VPN connections like that is something that a normal VPN setup can't handle. Sure, you can automate that process with software, but that's something that has to be written, as I'm not sure if it exists right now.
Now, another way that VPNs may be used is between you and the tracker. Again, that will protect your data in transit, but it isn't going to help you much, since your IP address is still visible via the tracker. After all, it has to be, otherwise, clients couldn't find each other to share the files. And that's how these companies are getting file sharers' IP's--by monitoring the connections of sharing users. The only way to get around that is for the tracker to act as a middleman for the data, routing it to the correct Bittorrent clients while stripping out the originator's IP. Needless to say, the bandwidth requirements for something like that would be insane. |
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KearnstdElf WizardPremium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ | reply to maartena
the problem is the MPAA sees DRM locked business models as the only business model.
Their ultimate wet dream is likely something where you are forced to register the media to the device(much like Windows does only even stricter). Meaning a DVD or Blu-Ray once played could not be used in the car or in the bedroom TV.
I do Agree though I should be able to play media I buy however, whereever, when ever I want to with zero restrictions.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports |
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1 edit | reply to ISurfTooMuch
I don't believe that is true. When you are on a VPN, the VPN server knows your real IP, but anything you connect to will not know your real IP. Instead, it will see the VPN server's IP address. All of your traffic goes to the VPN server first before going out to anything else. Also, anything coming in to you goes though the VPN server first before actually reaching your real IP via the tunnel.
If the VPN server providers don't keep logs or hand out information, then you can't be found.
Or course, this is the simplest case. I'm ignoring clever JavaScript and things like that when you browse the web. |
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3 edits | reply to ISurfTooMuch
The point is to route your traffic through a 3rd party, which owns the IP visible to the swarm. If that 3rd part is run by responsible human beings and no logs are kept nothing you do online is traceable to your computer. The weak point is when the thugs with guns land their helicopters at the VPN's data center and steal its machines. But by then we are really at the point of politics by other means. |
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| reply to ISurfTooMuch
In response to steve1515 and Wilsdom, yes, a setup like that would work. The problem with it is that you'll need to have insane amounts of bandwidth and server capacity to do it. The thing that makes any kind of distributed system like Bittorrent work is a large number of clients--the more, the better, since it gives you more places to get the files. That's fine when everyone is providing their own connections, but now you have this huge VPN that has to route all those transfers, so it has to have enough bandwidth to do that. In fact, it'd need to have double the bandwidth of all the data flowing through it, since those bits are moving in and out at the same time.
And, if you can set that up, congratulations, you now have another Napster, with a central server that becomes one big target. Take it out, and all the connections go down. Or, better yet, hack it, and you suddenly have access to information about every incoming and outgoing connection. |
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| I'll agree with that. Not sure how those BT VPN serviced can handle the load they have (or will have). |
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| reply to ISurfTooMuch
You have no clue what you are talking about and a VPN connection between a client and a server has encrypted traffic the entire time. |
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| reply to maartena
You can easily buy the product and then make it digital while removing the DRM yourself allowing you to use it where ever you want.
There are many products out there that allow you to do that. |
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| reply to Skippy25
Yes, it does, but, as I said in a previous post, you have two choices. If you're just using the VPN to simply hide your connection to the tracker and not actually handle the file transfers, then you still have to reveal your real IP on the tracker; otherwise, other clients can't find you. The other option is to run everything, including file transfers, through the VPN. That will hide your real IP, since only the VPN server would know what it is, but the bandwidth and server requirements for something like that on a usable scale would be enormous. Unless you're taking in a significant amount of money to spend on that, you won't keep it going for long. Not to mantion that such a VPN would be the biggest target on the planet. Not only would the entertainment industry want to take it out, but, if they could hack it instead, they could see the IP of every single connection in real time. That'd really be better than trying to take it offline.
There is a third option--to dynamically establish VPN connections between client computers that were sharing files. That would at least keep those transfers hidden from anyone running DPI, and the bandwidth requirements would work, since you don't need a central server to handle every single one. However, now you're talking about having every client running a VPN client/server setup that has to work out new connections automatically as you connect to and disconnect from other computers during a transfer. It can be done, but it still doesn't hide your IP from the tracker and anyone connected to it. |
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| reply to steve1515
I think that they work now because no one has tried to scale them up to levels that could handle a significant percentage of the Bittorrent traffic. As traffic increases, either they'll have to purchase more bandwidth, or connections will start to slow down until the VPN's eventually become unusable. |
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| Cat and Mouse... Never Ends They get stricter, pirates get sneakier.
Why don't they try to offer products that consumers will pay for and write off the % of pirates that just are not going to pay. Stop spending tons of money trying to stop the unstoppable while making your paying customers suffer.
Make copy protection hard enough that someone has to work at it a little and have some actual skill, and call it good enough.
Then start getting your content out in different channels so consumers can buy it.
HBO, get off your PREMIUM ass and start making shows available to people. ESP those who want shows but not the large bill that comes with Cable + HBO. Sell standalone HBOGO for $5.99 a month with no ISP restriction crap and see the money pour in.
Same with all the other content "providers" realize that people want to buy your content. Just not through a cable subscription. And may even (O HOLY CRAP) without commercial interruption.
Ask any parent with kids. That 16 minutes of commercials per hour of show is wasted time, when you want to watch a show without the kids around.
MAKE SOMETHING PEOPLE WANT AND THEY WILL BUY IT. |
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 AlakarFacts do not cease to exist when ignored
join:2001-03-23
Milwaukee, WI | reply to ISurfTooMuch
Re: And P2P users will ramp up their VPNs BT over a VPN works exactly like BT through your ISP. The only difference is that your "window to the world" is at the public end of your VPN instead of your ISP. As long as your VPN provider has enough bandwith, you will get full speeds while using it.
I use two VPN providers; StrongVPN and Private Internet Access.
Strong has got rock solid connections and I get my full bandwith. I use strong to stream BBC shows that are only available to UK residents. I connect to one of their servers in Manchester and get great speeds. Strong does log your IP and will provide that info if a legal request is made for it. They will also drop your account if someone complains about copyright violations.
Private Internet Access is what I use for BT. I get a full bandwith connection to the server closest to me, they don't keep any logs and use shared IP's. If presented with court order to turn over user info, there is no info to turn over.
As long as the VPN provider has enough bandwidth for the number of users, there is no slow down.
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"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom; it is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." William Pitt the Younger |
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| reply to Wilsdom
said by Wilsdom:The point is to route your traffic through a 3rd party, which owns the IP visible to the swarm. If that 3rd part is run by responsible human beings and no logs are kept nothing you do online is traceable to your computer. The weak point is when the thugs with guns land their helicopters at the VPN's data center and steal its machines. But by then we are really at the point of politics by other means.
Yeah, but most likely the VPN won't be in the USA (afterall, it's broadband speed customers need, not ~5ms ping times for gaming-- that comes after a successful download, lol).. the VPN companies will just have to be located in places where that is very, very unlikely AND have massive amounts of broadband.. Afterall, VPN servers aren't exactly public enemy #1 like BinLaden (yet)
Hmm.. are there many of those?!? Sweden USED to be a VPN haven.. not so sure these days.. with most of the target guns pointed at TPB (sweden).. and all torrent things Europe at the moment.. |
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 Simba7I Void Warranties
join:2003-03-24
Billings, MT | reply to Skippy25
said by Skippy25:You can easily buy the product and then make it digital while removing the DRM yourself allowing you to use it where ever you want.
There are many products out there that allow you to do that. We do that. Of course, we also have kids.. so backups are a requirement. If the kids destroy the backup, shred it and make another. |
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Simba7I Void Warranties
join:2003-03-24
Billings, MT | reply to Kearnstd
said by Kearnstd:Their ultimate wet dream is likely something where you are forced to register the media to the device(much like Windows does only even stricter). Meaning a DVD or Blu-Ray once played could not be used in the car or in the bedroom TV. I think they tried that crap in the past and it failed miserably. |
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| reply to ISurfTooMuch
I disagree.
When you're on a VPN any external query sees the VPN ip address, not your home ip address. The traffic is encrypted from your home to the VPN.
The weak point with VPNs is what happens if the VPN is asked for your info. The thought on this. Is say your using a Swedish VPN and you live in the US. So the Swedes notice your filesharing and and send a letter to the VPN. They find out your American their law doesn't apply to you. The VPN is basically causing one more headache for the those on an IP witchhunt.
The other is that there is a modern push for ISPs to retain logs so that they can be used against you. There doesn't seem to be a push for VPNs to do the same.
What if your VPN cycled your IP address every few days and didn't keep records.... If VPN's don't have to retain logs, it would be hard to figure that out.
Lastly. There's always going to be a country and has weak laws. There will be big money to be had for VPN's in those countries. |
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| reply to steve1515
said by steve1515:I'll agree with that. Not sure how those BT VPN services can handle the load they have (or will have). Hopefully, the same way any other expanding business would. If more people start signing up with VPN services, the companies running them would be getting more revenue, which will allow them to purchase additional and/or more powerful equipment and more bandwidth.
What could be more problematic is getting such insane amounts of bandwidth to third-world countries to support this. Although as of right now logging may not be required in the US, Western Europe or the rest of the "civilized" world, my guess that as VPN popularity grows, it is only a matter of time before it will be. So running and/or using these services based out of the above-listed countries is pointless. They will need to be set up in third-world countries that do not have treaties with the above nor have any reason to cooperate. The trouble with these countries is that they are not they are way behind the times when it comes to broadband penetration compared to civilized world.
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Ask me no questions, and I'll tell you no lies...
A MESSAGE to the RIAA and the MPAA: You shouldn't wound what you can't kill... |
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KearnstdElf WizardPremium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ | reply to Simba7
said by Simba7:said by Kearnstd:Their ultimate wet dream is likely something where you are forced to register the media to the device(much like Windows does only even stricter). Meaning a DVD or Blu-Ray once played could not be used in the car or in the bedroom TV. I think they tried that crap in the past and it failed miserably. I know of Divx the failed PPV-DVD that was a collab between Circuit City and the movie goons. But I never put it passed Hollywood to fail again.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports |
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| i use vpnreactor i like to use vpnreactor.com pay 10 bucks a month for if the riaa and the mpaa stop wasteing money on pireatcy that will never end and will always be cracked into and put the money into better movies dvd's with no pre-view and in fullscreen people will stop copying the darn dvd's i hate the the darn pre-views if i wanted to see them ill go on your site when i want to watch a movie i want to watch a movie not pre-views damn.. |
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