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Comments on news posted 2010-02-26 11:29:26: The network neutrality debate has seen no limit of dumb arguments from both sides of the aisle. ..

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camaro92
Question everything
Premium
join:2008-04-05
Westfield, MA
Reviews:
·Comcast

And people wonder

Why nothing ever changes,I think the isp's have figured it out finally, instead of trying to convince people that unless they get there way they just figured hey let's just confuse the majority of the public IE hard working people who just want a connection that works when they click there browser button,and just leave alone the net neutrality wackos who actually pay attention to what is going on around them.


pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

Consider the Converse

While the article summary does expose the pseudo science used to falsly conclude that Net Neutrality leads to job losses, we should also analyze a similar argument that also is equally false:


Expanded broadband deployments lead to more jobs.


If this is true, then there should have never been any job losses during the 2001-02 and current recessions, as broadband deployments have indeed been expanding since the late 1990s into today. Since this is not the case, we should throw out the claim, and stop making public policy based on false information.
--
"Net Neutrality" zealots - the people you can thank for your capped Internet service.


Linklist
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Longport, NJ
kudos:5

Self-fulfilling prophecy ?

The major ISPs that would be involved in investing in expanding broadband and hiring new workers for that expansion are the ones railing against net neutrality. If, as a result of an aggressive net neutrality being forced upon them, they decide to cut back on new investment and expansion and cutting back on new hires, doesn't that then become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

In other words, the ISPs can actually make happen what they predict will happen if aggressive net neutrality legislation is passed. Will they actually do that, of course, is up for debate. They won't cut off their nose to spite their face and depress profits out of pique. They would actually have to believe that playing along with the new laws would hurt profits to make them stop new investments.

yt
Premium
join:2008-06-03

1 edit

NN = Big Business not Consumers

To all the Sheep out there,

NN is big business fight over the pipes and who pays to carry Internet traffic. Internet traffic funding models have drastically changed over the years and all content has consolidated into a very few players that have arbitraged for free or below-cost transit/peering rates. They want to keep it that way which shifts the cost of end to end content delivery to the consumers (a little thing they don't want anyone to talk about so expect my post to be attacked)

The genius of this is while the very few content players shifts all the cost to carry video traffic growth to the ISP (in-turn the flat rate consumer), they blame the ISPs and lobby for a non-existent situation of blocking their traffic to generate consumer outrage.

MightyPez

join:2002-05-01
Saint Paul, MN

reply to pnh102

Re: Consider the Converse

said by pnh102:

While the article summary does expose the pseudo science used to falsly conclude that Net Neutrality leads to job losses, we should also analyze a similar argument that also is equally false:


Expanded broadband deployments lead to more jobs.


If this is true, then there should have never been any job losses during the 2001-02 and current recessions, as broadband deployments have indeed been expanding since the late 1990s into today. Since this is not the case, we should throw out the claim, and stop making public policy based on false information.
This doesn't make sense to me. Are you saying that since broadband expanded during these times, the net job gains for this one industry would create more jobs than all the other industries lost?

Kearnstd
Elf Wizard
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ

reply to yt

Re: NN = Big Business not Consumers

ALL internet traffic is paid for at what the valued rate is, what companies like google prove with the rates they get is that Bandwidth is worth less then what the shills say it is.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports

hoyleysox

join:2003-11-07
Long Beach, CA

Swanson is total BS

To gauge the possible fallout of new Net Neutrality regulation, we looked at what Internet industry companies were saying. The FCC received an astonishing 100,000 individual comments on its Net Neutrality proposal and some 15,000 official filings from companies, trade associations, academics, and think tanks. Excluding the associations, academics, and individuals, we analyzed the company comments and discerned support for or opposition to Net Neutrality. We then tabulated the number of workers employed by these Supporters and Skeptics and found a huge disparity.
Whether net neutrality is good or bad, the logic Swanson expresses above seems totally fallacious. Somebody help me name specific latin/greek phrase that summarizes Swanson's reasoning. Its also a statistical analysis on a non-random sample.


Bill Dollar

join:2009-02-20
New York, NY

His Entire Premise is Stupid

First, it is an FCC docket where the companies who are directly impacted by the proposed regulations are much more likely to file. So his sample certainly doesn't include all of the pro-net neutrality businesses who will be impacted by a closed Internet.

Second, it is a stupid apples to oranges comparison anyways. Telecom companies are by definition a very labor intensive industry, while Web, software, and applications companies are not. This is that little concept called "efficiency" that supposedly is supposed to be something we should all care about.

Third, Swanson neglects to mention that ever since the FCC gutted the telecom act and allowed massive mergers, telco jobs have been cut dramatically. Now some of this is due to efficiencies (fiber is cheaper to maintain than copper), but some of it is due to the nature of the business. This is not something net neutrality will have any impact on.

Fourth, Swanson and his ilk always neglect to mention that the entire point his paymasters want to kill net neutrality is so they can profit from creating artificial bandwidth scarcities. The entire point of their opposition to openness is so they can reduce cap ex and operating expenses.

Fifth, Swanson is a coward for not even allowing comments on his Huffington Post, though since they are author-moderated, it is doubtful he would let any contrarian comments in anyways.

AT&T is really getting desperate in their shilling.

yt
Premium
join:2008-06-03

1 edit

reply to Kearnstd

Re: NN = Big Business not Consumers

said by Kearnstd:

ALL internet traffic is paid for at what the valued rate is
How is value calculated? If I force my content through a congested path which causes customer complaints (and costs the ISP money) or through an international traffic path which costs the ISP even more $$ to bring in country, so I can "negotiate" free peering with that ISP.... is that "calculating value?"

Remember.. things that cost money are never "free". Getting it for free just shifts where the funding comes from. Free to Google = $$ from consumers.


pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

reply to MightyPez

Re: Consider the Converse

said by MightyPez:

This doesn't make sense to me. Are you saying that since broadband expanded during these times, the net job gains for this one industry would create more jobs than all the other industries lost?
No. I am simply saying there is no causal relationship between broadband deployment and job growth.
--
"Net Neutrality" zealots - the people you can thank for your capped Internet service.

MightyPez

join:2002-05-01
Saint Paul, MN

What data are you using to prove that?



funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6

reply to yt

Re: NN = Big Business not Consumers

said by yt:

Remember.. things that cost money are never "free". Getting it for free just shifts where the funding comes from. Free to Google = $$ from consumers.
Hardly. If a content provider like Google pays to get a line to the exchange, there's only one thing left to decide:

1 - Hook it up to a transit provider's box, where the bits will travel approximately 5 feet across the gateway into an ISP (and be charged to the ISP and the content provider). OR

2 - Hook it up to the ISP's box, where the bits don't cross a transit provider's network and nobody has to pay the transit provider anything.

** THIS IS IMPORTANT **

In both cases, 1 & 2, the ISP still pays for the equipment getting the bits to the last mile, and that is still the same amount of equipment carrying the same amount of traffic.

In both cases, 1 & 2, the content provider still pays (in equipment or transit or both) to get the bits to the exchange.

Robb
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL
Tweet! Tweet! -- »twitter.com/funchords


pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

reply to MightyPez

Re: Consider the Converse

said by MightyPez:

What data are you using to prove that?
I present the admittedly anecdotal evidence in my original post.

There are clearly more people who have broadband today than there were in the late 1990s. Since the late 1990s, we've had 2 recessions which have resulted in major job losses. But during both of these recessions, broadband deployments have continued. The jobs did not come back until the economy made a full recovery, which had little if anything to do with broadband deployment.
--
"Net Neutrality" zealots - the people you can thank for your capped Internet service.

MightyPez

join:2002-05-01
Saint Paul, MN

Again, I ask, why is broadband deployment, in your opinion, suppose to prop up other industries losing jobs? Perhaps more jobs *were* created in the broadband industry. That would stand to reason, anyway. More central offices, nodes, help desk personnel, etc.

Are people claiming greater broadband deployment is suppose to raise job levels as a whole?



funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6

reply to pnh102

said by pnh102:

said by MightyPez:

This doesn't make sense to me. Are you saying that since broadband expanded during these times, the net job gains for this one industry would create more jobs than all the other industries lost?
No. I am simply saying there is no causal relationship between broadband deployment and job growth.
There are construction costs, that's causal. But after that, there are the after-effects. In an area that has broadband, tech jobs can live and tech-enabled businesses can get advantage. The area is more attractive to live and work in, thus there is an economic advantage over those areas without broadband. Two-thirds of Americans subscribe to broadband, and it's now a huge incentive next to "good schools" and "low taxes."

Work and life is easier with the Internet. It's crazy to think that doesn't translate into jobs.

Headlines:
US House Blocks Internet Taxes for 4 More Years, as Private Studies Prove Web Commerce Driving US Economy »www.ibls.com/internet_law_news_p···testnews
More Internet Equals More Jobs: Reviving the Economy with Broadband »www.thewip.net/contributors/2009···obs.html

And the guys that came up with that statistic that one percent of additional deployment creates 300,000 jobs, recently said this:
We last examined the economic impact of broadband on the economy and on employment in 2001 and 2003. As it turns out, many of our previous predictions were too pessimistic. We underestimated the growth of broadband -- its reach, the applications that it made possible, and the reductions in price of access in the first decade of the 21st century. The increasing availability, improved speed, and lower price of high-speed Internet services that has resulted from the continuing massive investment in broadband infrastructure has had a predictable effect on household subscriptions. The Pew organization’s household surveys show that the share of households subscribing to broadband Internet services has risen from 47 percent in 2007 to nearly 65 percent at the end of 2009, substantially above our 2003 estimate.

The indirect benefits of broadband are perhaps even more significant: Smart young programmers creating new “apps” for smartphones; academic institutions utilizing ever faster broadband to enhance the educational experience; health care personnel being able to deliver world-class medical services to underserved regions domestically and globally; and, businesses being able to order, manufacture, market and distribute their products from anywhere to anywhere. We could not have anticipated many of these developments in 2003; we surely cannot foresee all of the benefits of continuing improvements in broadband services that will occur in the next few years as network companies continue to upgrade their infrastructure.
(and these guys aren't necessarily friendly to some of the line-sharing or structural separation ideas that some NN-folk like, but they recognize that broadband means jobs.)
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL
Tweet! Tweet! -- »twitter.com/funchords


NetAdmin1
CCNA

join:2008-05-22

reply to Kearnstd

Re: NN = Big Business not Consumers

said by Kearnstd:

ALL internet traffic is paid for at what the valued rate is, what companies like google prove with the rates they get is that Bandwidth is worth less then what the shills say it is.
The OP seems to be ranting on about Settlement Free Interconnect (SFI) or peering. The poster is making it out like the content providers gain all the benefits and the providers get none from SFI, but that is simple false.
--
Kilroy was here

sonicmerlin

join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH
kudos:1

reply to pnh102

Re: Consider the Converse

Ouch pnh. Looks like mightypez just burned you.


pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

reply to MightyPez

said by MightyPez:

Again, I ask, why is broadband deployment, in your opinion, suppose to prop up other industries losing jobs?
I did not claim this. I claimed that the notion that broadband deployment leads to more jobs is false.
--
"Net Neutrality" zealots - the people you can thank for your capped Internet service.

MightyPez

join:2002-05-01
Saint Paul, MN

But you're not saying how. You are saying overall jobs are being lost, but that doesn't mean jobs weren't created.


MightyPez

join:2002-05-01
Saint Paul, MN

reply to sonicmerlin
I'm not trying to cause a problem. I'm not an industry insider and have about as much economics training as it takes to invest in a company fund, but saying jobs were lost in the recession so we shouldn't deploy broadband is making my head spin.


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